Re: [FRIAM] do animals psychologize?

[Marcus Daniels]

Out of curiosity, does over-intervention concern apply to government behavior 
only?   One could imagine the same technology trends empower many groups and 
individuals.

On 9/14/18, 5:44 PM, "Friam on behalf of uǝlƃ ☣"  wrote:

Hm.  As usual, it depends on what you want to have happen, I suppose.  
Educating a zealot who wants to kill everyone will only make them more capable 
of killing everyone.  If your desire is to avoid killing everyone, then the 
dogmatic group needs to be isolated or eliminated.  But my guess is that your 
(1) and (2) are never disjoint.  The isolation/elimination of the zealots is 
achieved, in part, through strong controls on the distribution of some kinds of 
info.  We do this, already in almost every arena ... even to the extent of 
putting good scientific content behind paywalls and/or restrictions on 
exporting "munitions" like encryption algorithms.

The choice is still one of intervene or don't.  I, perhaps sadly, can't 
shake my libertarianism, which tells me to avoid intervention where possible.  
There is no worse crime against the world than over-intervention.

On 09/14/2018 04:36 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> I was thinking more of the 12 Monkeys example, more so than the current 
phenomena of gun violence.  If any dogmatic group can kill us all by 
downloading a nanotech kit, shouldn't either 1) they be educated, isolated, or 
eliminated with haste or 2) there be strong controls on distributing some kinds 
of information.It seems to me #2 is unacceptable, but the more likely 
outcome.

-- 
☣ uǝlƃ


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] do animals psychologize?

[uǝlƃ ☣]

Hm.  As usual, it depends on what you want to have happen, I suppose.  
Educating a zealot who wants to kill everyone will only make them more capable 
of killing everyone.  If your desire is to avoid killing everyone, then the 
dogmatic group needs to be isolated or eliminated.  But my guess is that your 
(1) and (2) are never disjoint.  The isolation/elimination of the zealots is 
achieved, in part, through strong controls on the distribution of some kinds of 
info.  We do this, already in almost every arena ... even to the extent of 
putting good scientific content behind paywalls and/or restrictions on 
exporting "munitions" like encryption algorithms.

The choice is still one of intervene or don't.  I, perhaps sadly, can't shake 
my libertarianism, which tells me to avoid intervention where possible.  There 
is no worse crime against the world than over-intervention.

On 09/14/2018 04:36 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> I was thinking more of the 12 Monkeys example, more so than the current 
> phenomena of gun violence.  If any dogmatic group can kill us all by 
> downloading a nanotech kit, shouldn't either 1) they be educated, isolated, 
> or eliminated with haste or 2) there be strong controls on distributing some 
> kinds of information.It seems to me #2 is unacceptable, but the more 
> likely outcome.

-- 
☣ uǝlƃ


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] do animals psychologize?

[Marcus Daniels]

I was thinking more of the 12 Monkeys example, more so than the current 
phenomena of gun violence.  If any dogmatic group can kill us all by 
downloading a nanotech kit, shouldn't either 1) they be educated, isolated, or 
eliminated with haste or 2) there be strong controls on distributing some kinds 
of information.It seems to me #2 is unacceptable, but the more likely 
outcome.

On 9/14/18, 5:20 PM, "Friam on behalf of uǝlƃ ☣"  wrote:

Well, sure.  If you intend to intervene, you have to choose the type of 
intervention.  So, the "Killing versus Letting Die" dilemma is a special form 
of "intervene or don't".  But if you choose to intervene, you have to also 
choose how to intervene.  One might choose to kill by positively reinforcing 
extant bad habits ... i.e. open a gun store or invest in Smith & Wesson.  
That's an intervention of a sort.  Another intervention might be to encourage 
one's mutual fund to disinvest in S&W or donate to a gun control PAC.  But none 
of these deny the more fundamental choice of whether to intervene or not.

A *social* person may well choose to exacerbate it, thinking that it'll 
weed out the people with property XYZ (violent, ignorant, poor, whatever), 
while "civilized" people will inherently avoid killing each other with guns. Of 
course, such a person is probably ignorant of the full connectedness of the 
gene-space (which generates the phenomena of gun violence).  And if we allow 
for kin selection of any sort, then it's plausible that such sociality is the 
problem, not the cure. ... So, "no", it's not a slam dunk to assume that a 
social person would aim to mitigate the stupidity, at least at various scopes.

On 09/14/2018 04:05 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Wouldn't a social person aim to mitigate the stupidity, along the lines 
the of the resistance within the White House?
> Or is there some reason it is best to bore on ahead with the stupidity?   
Because it is undemocratic or just because it is a bother?

-- 
☣ uǝlƃ


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] Friam Today

[Frank Wimberly]

That makes sense.  Harvard has $40 billion endowment last I heard.
Facebook has a market cap much greater than that.

---
Frank Wimberly

My memoir:
https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

My scientific publications:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

On Fri, Sep 14, 2018, 5:19 PM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> Factoid:  Facebook has the 45th ranked supercomputer in the world, above
> Harvard and even the Atomic Weapons Establishment of the United Kingdom.
>
>
>
> *From: *Friam  on behalf of Frank Wimberly <
> wimber...@gmail.com>
> *Reply-To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Date: *Friday, September 14, 2018 at 5:03 PM
> *To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [FRIAM] Friam Today
>
>
>
> Nick,
>
>
>
> Good essay by Bruni.
>
>
>
> My wife, who went to Harvard (as you know, Nick), was made physically ill
> by the theme in The Social Network of the rich kids lording it over others
> because of their weekend trips to the Hamptons or Newport for coming out
> parties.
>
>
>
> Frank
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 1:59 PM Nick Thompson 
> wrote:
>
> Hi, Frank,
>
>
>
> Yes.  That’s an exciting bit of news.  I have no “inside information”
> about what is going on, but inferring from my experience at Clark
> University, St. Johns taking on the almost universal practice of stating
> notional “sticker prices” which only the wealthiest students pay and which
> help to pay the tuitions of their less fortunate colleagues.   I am
> ambivalent about it, myself, since the practice Incorporates the fact that
> for rich people to get any education worth its salt, there HAVE to be poor
> people around them.  Nothing poisons the mind so thoroughly as living
> amongst unseemly wealth.  Talk about “entitlement”.  Yuck!
>
>
>
> On the other hand, for institutions of higher education, devoted after all
> to the pursuit of truth, to base their tuition structure on a lie, is also
> icky, so I applaud the experiment.  St. Johns apparently feels that this
> policy will get them an even more balanced student body than the practice
> of overstating tuition costs to include scholarship costs.  Making tuition
> costs more honest will go a long way to challenging the exaggeration of
> higher education inflation, which comes largely from accommodating rich
> students in the style to which they are accustomed so that enough of them
> will apply to pay for the poorer ones.  (Apparently, the Umass dining hall
> is now serving sushi!)
>
>
>
> Frank Bruni wrote
> 
> about the change in the NYT.  In less than 24 hours, 1200 comments
> accumulated, a few mindless, but many interested.  They are still available
> at the link above, or I scraped the site and put them in a word file,
> above.
>
>
>
> See you in three weeks,
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Frank
> Wimberly
> *Sent:* Friday, September 14, 2018 1:34 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* [FRIAM] Friam Today
>
>
>
> There were only four of us at Friam today.  Three of us got there early
> and the fourth walked.  Also the coffee shop was full of students. This was
> apparently all because of a presentation by the College administration
> about St. John's new tuition policy in which the tuition is being reduced
> by tens of thousands of dollars per year.  The parking lot was virtually
> full by the time I got there at about 8:45.  I assume it was lack of
> parking that caused such low attendance.  I hope to see you New Mexico
> Friam members next week.
>
>
>
> Frank
>
>
> --
>
> Frank Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> 505 670-9918
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>
>
>
> --
>
> Frank Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> 505 670-9918
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogs

Re: [FRIAM] do animals psychologize?

[uǝlƃ ☣]

Well, sure.  If you intend to intervene, you have to choose the type of 
intervention.  So, the "Killing versus Letting Die" dilemma is a special form 
of "intervene or don't".  But if you choose to intervene, you have to also 
choose how to intervene.  One might choose to kill by positively reinforcing 
extant bad habits ... i.e. open a gun store or invest in Smith & Wesson.  
That's an intervention of a sort.  Another intervention might be to encourage 
one's mutual fund to disinvest in S&W or donate to a gun control PAC.  But none 
of these deny the more fundamental choice of whether to intervene or not.

A *social* person may well choose to exacerbate it, thinking that it'll weed 
out the people with property XYZ (violent, ignorant, poor, whatever), while 
"civilized" people will inherently avoid killing each other with guns. Of 
course, such a person is probably ignorant of the full connectedness of the 
gene-space (which generates the phenomena of gun violence).  And if we allow 
for kin selection of any sort, then it's plausible that such sociality is the 
problem, not the cure. ... So, "no", it's not a slam dunk to assume that a 
social person would aim to mitigate the stupidity, at least at various scopes.

On 09/14/2018 04:05 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Wouldn't a social person aim to mitigate the stupidity, along the lines the 
> of the resistance within the White House?
> Or is there some reason it is best to bore on ahead with the stupidity?   
> Because it is undemocratic or just because it is a bother?

-- 
☣ uǝlƃ


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] Friam Today

[Marcus Daniels]

Factoid:  Facebook has the 45th ranked supercomputer in the world, above 
Harvard and even the Atomic Weapons Establishment of the United Kingdom.

From: Friam  on behalf of Frank Wimberly 

Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Date: Friday, September 14, 2018 at 5:03 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Friam Today

Nick,

Good essay by Bruni.

My wife, who went to Harvard (as you know, Nick), was made physically ill by 
the theme in The Social Network of the rich kids lording it over others because 
of their weekend trips to the Hamptons or Newport for coming out parties.

Frank

On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 1:59 PM Nick Thompson 
mailto:nickthomp...@earthlink.net>> wrote:
Hi, Frank,

Yes.  That’s an exciting bit of news.  I have no “inside information” about 
what is going on, but inferring from my experience at Clark University, St. 
Johns taking on the almost universal practice of stating notional “sticker 
prices” which only the wealthiest students pay and which help to pay the 
tuitions of their less fortunate colleagues.   I am ambivalent about it, 
myself, since the practice Incorporates the fact that for rich people to get 
any education worth its salt, there HAVE to be poor people around them.  
Nothing poisons the mind so thoroughly as living amongst unseemly wealth.  Talk 
about “entitlement”.  Yuck!

On the other hand, for institutions of higher education, devoted after all to 
the pursuit of truth, to base their tuition structure on a lie, is also icky, 
so I applaud the experiment.  St. Johns apparently feels that this policy will 
get them an even more balanced student body than the practice of overstating 
tuition costs to include scholarship costs.  Making tuition costs more honest 
will go a long way to challenging the exaggeration of higher education 
inflation, which comes largely from accommodating rich students in the style to 
which they are accustomed so that enough of them will apply to pay for the 
poorer ones.  (Apparently, the Umass dining hall is now serving sushi!)

Frank Bruni 
wrote
 about the change in the NYT.  In less than 24 hours, 1200 comments 
accumulated, a few mindless, but many interested.  They are still available at 
the link above, or I scraped the site and put them in a word file, above.

See you in three weeks,

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam 
[mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf 
Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2018 1:34 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: [FRIAM] Friam Today

There were only four of us at Friam today.  Three of us got there early and the 
fourth walked.  Also the coffee shop was full of students. This was apparently 
all because of a presentation by the College administration about St. John's 
new tuition policy in which the tuition is being reduced by tens of thousands 
of dollars per year.  The parking lot was virtually full by the time I got 
there at about 8:45.  I assume it was lack of parking that caused such low 
attendance.  I hope to see you New Mexico Friam members next week.

Frank

--
Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove


--
Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] do animals psychologize?

[Marcus Daniels]

Wouldn't a social person aim to mitigate the stupidity, along the lines the of 
the resistance within the White House?
Or is there some reason it is best to bore on ahead with the stupidity?   
Because it is undemocratic or just because it is a bother?

On 9/14/18, 4:53 PM, "Friam on behalf of uǝlƃ ☣"  wrote:

Ha!  When I was in college, I distracted myself from my failings at 
electrical engineering ... and my failure to grok topology by reading the 
University of Chicago's Ethics: 
https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/toc/et/current.  One  issue had an essay on 
"Killing versus Letting Die".  I remember reading it while walking to 
"Electronic Properties of Materials", a 1st world privilege if there ever was 
one.  I forget the issue and the author ... and even the content.  But I can 
say I think stealing and releasing a deadly virus is somehow different from 
letting people kill themselves with their own stupidity. >8^D

On 09/14/2018 03:38 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Good science fiction would develop characters like David Morse's 
character in 12 Monkeys as protagonists.  


-- 
☣ uǝlƃ


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] Friam Today

[Frank Wimberly]

Nick,

Good essay by Bruni.

My wife, who went to Harvard (as you know, Nick), was made physically ill
by the theme in The Social Network of the rich kids lording it over others
because of their weekend trips to the Hamptons or Newport for coming out
parties.

Frank

On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 1:59 PM Nick Thompson 
wrote:

> Hi, Frank,
>
>
>
> Yes.  That’s an exciting bit of news.  I have no “inside information”
> about what is going on, but inferring from my experience at Clark
> University, St. Johns taking on the almost universal practice of stating
> notional “sticker prices” which only the wealthiest students pay and which
> help to pay the tuitions of their less fortunate colleagues.   I am
> ambivalent about it, myself, since the practice Incorporates the fact that
> for rich people to get any education worth its salt, there HAVE to be poor
> people around them.  Nothing poisons the mind so thoroughly as living
> amongst unseemly wealth.  Talk about “entitlement”.  Yuck!
>
>
>
> On the other hand, for institutions of higher education, devoted after all
> to the pursuit of truth, to base their tuition structure on a lie, is also
> icky, so I applaud the experiment.  St. Johns apparently feels that this
> policy will get them an even more balanced student body than the practice
> of overstating tuition costs to include scholarship costs.  Making tuition
> costs more honest will go a long way to challenging the exaggeration of
> higher education inflation, which comes largely from accommodating rich
> students in the style to which they are accustomed so that enough of them
> will apply to pay for the poorer ones.  (Apparently, the Umass dining hall
> is now serving sushi!)
>
>
>
> Frank Bruni wrote
> 
> about the change in the NYT.  In less than 24 hours, 1200 comments
> accumulated, a few mindless, but many interested.  They are still available
> at the link above, or I scraped the site and put them in a word file,
> above.
>
>
>
> See you in three weeks,
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Frank
> Wimberly
> *Sent:* Friday, September 14, 2018 1:34 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* [FRIAM] Friam Today
>
>
>
> There were only four of us at Friam today.  Three of us got there early
> and the fourth walked.  Also the coffee shop was full of students. This was
> apparently all because of a presentation by the College administration
> about St. John's new tuition policy in which the tuition is being reduced
> by tens of thousands of dollars per year.  The parking lot was virtually
> full by the time I got there at about 8:45.  I assume it was lack of
> parking that caused such low attendance.  I hope to see you New Mexico
> Friam members next week.
>
>
>
> Frank
>
>
> --
>
> Frank Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> 505 670-9918
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>


-- 
Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] do animals psychologize?

[uǝlƃ ☣]

Ha!  When I was in college, I distracted myself from my failings at electrical 
engineering ... and my failure to grok topology by reading the University of 
Chicago's Ethics: https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/toc/et/current.  One  issue 
had an essay on "Killing versus Letting Die".  I remember reading it while 
walking to "Electronic Properties of Materials", a 1st world privilege if there 
ever was one.  I forget the issue and the author ... and even the content.  But 
I can say I think stealing and releasing a deadly virus is somehow different 
from letting people kill themselves with their own stupidity. >8^D

On 09/14/2018 03:38 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Good science fiction would develop characters like David Morse's character in 
> 12 Monkeys as protagonists.  


-- 
☣ uǝlƃ


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] do animals psychologize?

[Marcus Daniels]

Good science fiction would develop characters like David Morse's character in 
12 Monkeys as protagonists.  

On 9/14/18, 4:16 PM, "Friam on behalf of uǝlƃ ☣"  wrote:

"What then?" Well, my answer is we'll either be aware of our own ability to 
destroy the world[†] ... or we won't.  Anyone who is not already aware of our 
ability to destroy the world is handicapped.  So, those people are in sore need 
of an educational transformation.  So what if such an education kills those of 
us who already know it?  I'm willing to die so that the ignorant among us will 
learn their own powers.

[†] As usual, "world" is ambiguous.

On 09/14/2018 01:30 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> < But it's irresponsible to ignore the material cause: guns.  But those 
who know me, know I'm an inherent supporter of weapon freedom.  Anyone ought to 
be able to own (and use) pretty much any weapon they want.  >
> 
> Without getting in to the usual arguments of that discussion, my 2-faced 
position (not really) comes with the recent printable gun controversy.   If 
someone wants to share a file, who is to say they can't do it?   And 
sooner-or-later there will be the possibility of programmable fabricated 
nano-machines or organisms.The gun thing is just the tip of the iceberg.   
The possibly of genocide scale violence initiated by individuals or small 
groups will come with it.What then?  


-- 
☣ uǝlƃ


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] do animals psychologize?

[uǝlƃ ☣]

"What then?" Well, my answer is we'll either be aware of our own ability to 
destroy the world[†] ... or we won't.  Anyone who is not already aware of our 
ability to destroy the world is handicapped.  So, those people are in sore need 
of an educational transformation.  So what if such an education kills those of 
us who already know it?  I'm willing to die so that the ignorant among us will 
learn their own powers.

[†] As usual, "world" is ambiguous.

On 09/14/2018 01:30 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> < But it's irresponsible to ignore the material cause: guns.  But those who 
> know me, know I'm an inherent supporter of weapon freedom.  Anyone ought to 
> be able to own (and use) pretty much any weapon they want.  >
> 
> Without getting in to the usual arguments of that discussion, my 2-faced 
> position (not really) comes with the recent printable gun controversy.   If 
> someone wants to share a file, who is to say they can't do it?   And 
> sooner-or-later there will be the possibility of programmable fabricated 
> nano-machines or organisms.The gun thing is just the tip of the iceberg.  
>  The possibly of genocide scale violence initiated by individuals or small 
> groups will come with it.What then?  


-- 
☣ uǝlƃ


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] do animals psychologize?

[Marcus Daniels]

< But it's irresponsible to ignore the material cause: guns.  But those who 
know me, know I'm an inherent supporter of weapon freedom.  Anyone ought to be 
able to own (and use) pretty much any weapon they want.  >

Without getting in to the usual arguments of that discussion, my 2-faced 
position (not really) comes with the recent printable gun controversy.   If 
someone wants to share a file, who is to say they can't do it?   And 
sooner-or-later there will be the possibility of programmable fabricated 
nano-machines or organisms.The gun thing is just the tip of the iceberg.   
The possibly of genocide scale violence initiated by individuals or small 
groups will come with it.What then?  

Marcus



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Re: [FRIAM] Friam Today

[Frank Wimberly]

Also this

http://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/local_news/st-john-s-college-plans-major-tuition-decrease/article_ff2c397d-b162-55f1-a0d5-75b25fe34876.html

---
Frank Wimberly

My memoir:
https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

My scientific publications:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

On Fri, Sep 14, 2018, 12:15 PM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> https://www.sjc.edu/admissions-and-aid/financial-aid/tuition-costs
>
> The tuition had been considerably higher, I believe.
>
> ---
> Frank Wimberly
>
> My memoir:
> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>
> My scientific publications:
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>
> Phone (505) 670-9918
>
> On Fri, Sep 14, 2018, 12:05 PM Alfredo Covaleda Vélez 
> wrote:
>
>> Reduction in the tuition. It is a joke. Isn't it?
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 12:33 PM, Frank Wimberly 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> There were only four of us at Friam today.  Three of us got there early
>>> and the fourth walked.  Also the coffee shop was full of students. This was
>>> apparently all because of a presentation by the College administration
>>> about St. John's new tuition policy in which the tuition is being reduced
>>> by tens of thousands of dollars per year.  The parking lot was virtually
>>> full by the time I got there at about 8:45.  I assume it was lack of
>>> parking that caused such low attendance.  I hope to see you New Mexico
>>> Friam members next week.
>>>
>>> Frank
>>>
>>> --
>>> Frank Wimberly
>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz
>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>> 505 670-9918
>>>
>>> 
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>>>
>>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>>
>

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Re: [FRIAM] Friam Today

[Frank Wimberly]

https://www.sjc.edu/admissions-and-aid/financial-aid/tuition-costs

The tuition had been considerably higher, I believe.

---
Frank Wimberly

My memoir:
https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

My scientific publications:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

On Fri, Sep 14, 2018, 12:05 PM Alfredo Covaleda Vélez 
wrote:

> Reduction in the tuition. It is a joke. Isn't it?
>
> On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 12:33 PM, Frank Wimberly 
> wrote:
>
>> There were only four of us at Friam today.  Three of us got there early
>> and the fourth walked.  Also the coffee shop was full of students. This was
>> apparently all because of a presentation by the College administration
>> about St. John's new tuition policy in which the tuition is being reduced
>> by tens of thousands of dollars per year.  The parking lot was virtually
>> full by the time I got there at about 8:45.  I assume it was lack of
>> parking that caused such low attendance.  I hope to see you New Mexico
>> Friam members next week.
>>
>> Frank
>>
>> --
>> Frank Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>> 505 670-9918
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>>
>>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

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Re: [FRIAM] do animals psychologize?

[Nick Thompson]

Glen, 

That's extraordinarily kind of you, Glen.  I would look forward to any 
responses you had.  For most academic writers ... except the Dennetts and the 
Pinkers and the Dawkinses ... writing is like dropping gold pieces down an 
infinitely deep wishing well.  You never even hear them hit the bottom, let 
alone get your wishes.  

I share your misgivings about Harnad.  To his credit, Harnad published a lot of 
my commentaries  while disagreeing vociferously with my perspective, whenever I 
approached him directly.  He is a dyed in the wool Cartesian who has never 
doubted for a minute that all experience begins with knowledge of one's own 
mind.  There are mountains of evidence to suggest that, on the contrary, 
experience of one's own mind is derived from experience of the world, and is as 
much, or more, of an inference that our inference of the minds of others.  So 
the entire project laid out in his abstract is, to me, patently wrong-headed.  

Thanks, again, Glen.

Nick 



Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of u?l? ?
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2018 1:29 PM
To: FriAM 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] do animals psychologize?

I'm not sure I've read all 3.  I will, though.  I *tried* to read this:

  Animal Sentience: The other-minds problem
  https://animalstudiesrepository.org/animsent/vol1/iss1/1/

And I've read some of Harnad's other work and came away impressed.  But his 
characterization of the "hard problem" seems fundamentally *off* to me.  But 
who knows.  He's smarter than I am.  In any case, I found this response 
interesting:

  Nonhuman mind-reading ability
  https://animalstudiesrepository.org/animsent/vol1/iss1/2/


On 09/13/2018 06:34 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:
> Glen has already read and commented on this stuff, a kindness for 
> which I am eternally grateful  If you are interested in this topic, I would 
> love to hear from more of you.


--
☣ uǝlƃ


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Re: [FRIAM] Friam Today

[Alfredo Covaleda Vélez]

Reduction in the tuition. It is a joke. Isn't it?

On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 12:33 PM, Frank Wimberly 
wrote:

> There were only four of us at Friam today.  Three of us got there early
> and the fourth walked.  Also the coffee shop was full of students. This was
> apparently all because of a presentation by the College administration
> about St. John's new tuition policy in which the tuition is being reduced
> by tens of thousands of dollars per year.  The parking lot was virtually
> full by the time I got there at about 8:45.  I assume it was lack of
> parking that caused such low attendance.  I hope to see you New Mexico
> Friam members next week.
>
> Frank
>
> --
> Frank Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> 505 670-9918
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>
>

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] do animals psychologize?

[uǝlƃ ☣]

I make a similar argument about gun control.  Most of my friends are advocates 
of stronger regulation.  They *think* I'm also an advocate of such.  And, 
objectively, I am because I sometimes parrot a subset of their arguments.  E.g. 
I argue that there are multiple types of cause (perhaps 4: formal, final, 
efficient, material).  And, yes the gun nuts hinge their arguments on efficient 
cause, which is fine.  But it's irresponsible to ignore the material cause: 
guns.  But those who know me, know I'm an inherent supporter of weapon freedom. 
 Anyone ought to be able to own (and use) pretty much any weapon they want.  I 
don't vote that way, though.  And most of my acquaintances don't know that 
about me.  My 2-faced position depends fundamentally on my belief that human 
life just isn't that important.  I think, say, cougars[†] and bacteria have 
just as much right to life as humans.  And, to some extent, humans are 
destroying the ecosystem.  So, it's difficult for me to keep a straight face 
and claim that human life is somehow sacred. (It's even easier now that I have 
cancer.)  So, yeah, more guns = more dead people.  Personally, that's OK with 
me.  Politically, however, it's a reality and if we all *understand* that more 
guns means more dead people ... and we don't want more dead people, then the 
only rational thing is to more strictly regulate (or eliminate) guns.

[†] 
https://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2018/09/hunt_for_killer_cougar_in_oreg.html

The Peterson/Harris argument is mostly about dogma.  But if we munge the 
words/concepts a bit, we could just as easily make it about schema, where some 
of the variables are bound and others are free.  I think if we did that, it 
would be trivial to admit both that this weaker form of dogma (arrived at by 
bio- or cultural evolution) does not disallow the rationalist the freedom to 
update the schema whenever some multi-objective optimization algorithm suggests 
it needs updating.  I think, the problem with the 2nd video (their 2nd night of 
discussion) was that they just danced around our tendency to dichotomize 
*everything* always.  It's just another example of how artificial 
discretization prevents people who agree on 90% of everything from codifying 
where they disagree.

On 09/14/2018 10:03 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> I think you could make the case that ISIS terrorists are terrorists because 
> it has given them something to believe-in and something to do with their 
> lives.
> 
> It is only with the application of a prevalent value system that we equate 
> terrorists with badness.   Many junkies outside 7-Elevens are lost souls and 
> will have abbreviated lives.    They are unable to thrive.   In contrast, a 
> military commander in Hamas living in the Gaza Strip may have miserable 
> conditions to cope with, but they are respected by a group of people and 
> aren't depressed.    This was sort of Ted Kaczynski's point that technology 
> raises the bar to the point many people can't function any more.
> 
> Another example are the stories 
>  of 
> (U.S.) soldiers who live in terrible conditions but bond tightly with their 
> peers, people they might never be close to in civilian life. 
> 
> Objectively they are in danger every day, but psychologically they crave the 
> bond and the engagement in the fight.
> 
>  
> 
> Either moral relativists or full-on nihilists see that threads of subjective 
> reality can and sometimes should be independent.   I would argue that is 
> useful on average at a universal level because it expands understanding 
> rather than being prescriptive.    Peterson’s own arguments about how men 
> rise to greatness in organizations admits that things can take care of 
> themselves. 

-- 
☣ uǝlƃ

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Re: [FRIAM] do animals psychologize?

[uǝlƃ ☣]

I'm not sure I've read all 3.  I will, though.  I *tried* to read this:

  Animal Sentience: The other-minds problem
  https://animalstudiesrepository.org/animsent/vol1/iss1/1/

And I've read some of Harnad's other work and came away impressed.  But his 
characterization of the "hard problem" seems fundamentally *off* to me.  But 
who knows.  He's smarter than I am.  In any case, I found this response 
interesting:

  Nonhuman mind-reading ability
  https://animalstudiesrepository.org/animsent/vol1/iss1/2/


On 09/13/2018 06:34 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:
> Glen has already read and commented on this stuff, a kindness for which I am 
> eternally grateful  If you are interested in this topic, I would love to hear 
> from more of you. 


-- 
☣ uǝlƃ


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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[FRIAM] Friam Today

[Frank Wimberly]

There were only four of us at Friam today.  Three of us got there early and
the fourth walked.  Also the coffee shop was full of students. This was
apparently all because of a presentation by the College administration
about St. John's new tuition policy in which the tuition is being reduced
by tens of thousands of dollars per year.  The parking lot was virtually
full by the time I got there at about 8:45.  I assume it was lack of
parking that caused such low attendance.  I hope to see you New Mexico
Friam members next week.

Frank

-- 
Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] do animals psychologize?

[Marcus Daniels]

Glen writes:



< As for Harris' argument, he's relying on a common trope amongst people like 
him (including Pinker's recent book, Shermer's standard presentation, etc.).  
As horrific as the local 7-Eleven parking lot might be, it doesn't compare to 
what's happening in places like Yemen or Syria.  >



Maybe.   I think you could make the case that ISIS terrorists are terrorists 
because it has given them something to believe-in and something to do with 
their lives.

It is only with the application of a prevalent value system that we equate 
terrorists with badness.   Many junkies outside 7-Elevens are lost souls and 
will have abbreviated lives.They are unable to thrive.   In contrast, a 
military commander in Hamas living in the Gaza Strip may have miserable 
conditions to cope with, but they are respected by a group of people and aren't 
depressed.This was sort of Ted Kaczynski's point that technology raises the 
bar to the point many people can't function any more.

Another example are the 
stories of 
(U.S.) soldiers who live in terrible conditions but bond tightly with their 
peers, people they might never be close to in civilian life.

Objectively they are in danger every day, but psychologically they crave the 
bond and the engagement in the fight.



Either moral relativists or full-on nihilists see that threads of subjective 
reality can and sometimes should be independent.   I would argue that is useful 
on average at a universal level because it expands understanding rather than 
being prescriptive.Peterson’s own arguments about how men rise to greatness 
in organizations admits that things can take care of themselves.



Marcus

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Re: [FRIAM] do animals psychologize?

[uǝlƃ ☣]

I've always wondered why Peterson equates moral relativism with nihilism.  The 
two seem fundamentally different to me.  I'm re-reading this:

  What is complexity?
  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12447974

wherein Chris makes the (kindasorta obvious) point that meaning is always 
relative to some reference structure.  So... it makes sense that nihilism might 
be the admission that all reference structures are arbitrary or even 
fictitious.  And moral relativism is the admission that morals only make sense 
when/if the relation and the referent exist and are identified.  Nihilism, 
then, is a discrete thing.  You're either a nihilist or you're not.  Moral 
relativism seems to span the gamut *between* nihilism and realism.  A moral 
relativist may well think that some reference structures are just stupid, 
others are questionable, and others are fairly reliable.

So, is his (false) equivalence just more of Peterson's disingenuity, in an 
attempt to pose as the "wise father figure"? Or have I missed some bit of 
reasoning that shows they're equivalent?

As for Harris' argument, he's relying on a common trope amongst people like him 
(including Pinker's recent book, Shermer's standard presentation, etc.).  As 
horrific as the local 7-Eleven parking lot might be, it doesn't compare to 
what's happening in places like Yemen or Syria.  Subjective horror shouldn't be 
discounted, of course.  But those who claim to be realists will probably argue 
that objective horror is worse.  A dualist could easily argue that what we 
should be optimizing are *qualia*, which may be unbound from their binding 
context, yet remain meaningful and real. So these "objective" numbers cited by 
Pinker would be largely irrelevant.  Horror is invariant across the landscape.  
I know people who truly believe their lives are horrible, despite having their 
own car, a place to live, a big screen TV, beautiful children, etc.  [sigh]


On 09/13/2018 05:45 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> How did they forget to invite a nihilist to that Harris/Peterson panel? 
> 
> A nihilist might observe that a multi-cellular organism can have billions of 
> states and the interactions between billions of different organisms is 
> exponentially larger still.
> There's no reason to think in the evolution that led to humans to this point 
> has tested all possible ways for groups to form and dissolve, or even 
> sparsely sampled the possibilities.   To Peterson, that God is the wisdom of 
> humankind (and mostly men it seems), is just confusing the samples that have 
> been seen so far (and captured in some stupid volumes) with the samples that 
> could be made if we are all Free to be You and Me.  But the samples cannot be 
> even be taken in a socially conservative regime because it prevents it.
> 
> I have no idea what Harris is talking about things being obviously good or 
> bad.   First world problems can be pretty horrific w.r.t. to addiction, 
> suicide, and inequality.   Sit outside at a McDonalds in most any city for 
> half hour or so and you'll eventually notice someone finishing out garbage 
> for their dinner.   
> 
> So there,
> 
> Marcus


-- 
☣ uǝlƃ


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