Re: [FRIAM] Abduction

[Nick Thompson]

Glen, 

 

I am having a terrible time keeping up with my own thread here.  (Fools rush 
in, etc.)  But I will add a little larding where I can, below.  Thanks for your 
work, here.  Thanks to Renee for loaning you to us.  

 

Nick 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of ? u???
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2018 8:02 AM
To: FriAM 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Abduction

 

I've tried to catch up with this thread and probably failed to grok most of it. 
 But it strikes me that your coarse- and fine-graining formulation of 
abstraction and Nick and Eric's true/real distinction are both instances of 
what I'll call "layer prejudice".  I almost want to call it a form of 
reductionism as a criticism of Nick's original posted paper and the conception 
of "Natural Design" as a favoritism for the fine-layer structure over the 
meta-stuff (self, agency, intention, etc.).  But neither your coarse-/fine- nor 
the true/real distinction seem to fully commit to reduction, perhaps for 
different reasons. [NST==> I think the term, “layer prejudice” is patentable 
and I would like, if you don’t mind, to purchase a license for its  use.  I 
might suggest “layer bias”, just because the rhythm works better, but the basic 
idea is  stunner, and I want to keep it close.  However, I hope you have 
misread “natural design” because otherwise I have mis-wrote it.  My level-bias 
is distinctly upward.  Where others might think of an intention as an inner 
state, something about my guts or my brain, I think of it as a higher-order 
patter.  For most people who talk about the brain, it is serving as a covert 
behavioral model, but without the potential for falsifiability that a genuine 
behavioral model would afford.   <==nst] 

 

 

Like mathematicians, maybe we have to ultimately commit to the ontological 
status of our parsing methods?  Are the equivalence classes 
things-in-themselves (Platonic)?  Or are they merely convenient/useful fictions 
(Construction) we use to parse an *inherently* dynamic (perhaps even unstable 
or mystical/hidden[†]) world?

[NST==>Remember, the whole point about the ding an sich is that it is 
inaccessible.  Peirce thought “generals” were real but not inaccessible.  
<==nst] 

 

It's unclear to me why we have to be "layer prejudiced". 

[NST==>I agree.  I guess I believe in “ontological “ levels, just the way the 
different levels in a fractal are real patterns.  But we have to be careful not 
to mix up levels when we talk.  In any particular conversation, we must not 
equivocate about levels, confuse things within us, with things “of” us.  ==nst] 

 Why can't both the fine and coarse things have the same ontological status?  
The example of the unicorn is unfortunate, I think, because the properties of 
unicorns are essentially stable. 

[NST==>Well, that’s sort of why I bring it up.  I think it’s possible that 
inquiry might converge on what a unicorn IS without there ever having been a 
unicorn.  Obviously, a unicorn is a white horse with a luxurious mane and tail 
and a narwhale horn in the middle of its nose and on its back a damsel with 
long flowing golden locks, a garland crown, and a white gown.  Obviously.  We 
all agree on THAT, don’t we?  <==nst] 

 Given a particular culture, every little girl knows what a unicorn is and can 
predict with certainty what another little girl will expect to see when 
presented with one.  Hence, studies of unicorns *will* eventually stabilize as 
long as the underlying culture is stable.  This is exactly the same type of 
statement one might make about the multiverse.  We can predict the properties 
of spacetime outside the observable universe *if* the underlying multiverse is 
stable.  These little unicorn experts eventually evolve into "shut up and 
calculate" adults who hang unicorns from their rear view mirrors, nostalgic for 
the (innocent) days when they were committed to the status of unicorns.  (At 
least 1/2 the cheesy XMas movies Renee's made me watch involve reinvigorating 
one's belief in "magic", "santa claus", or "christmas spirit", much like 
Einstein or Russell might have felt after their paradigms were successfully 
challenged.) So why would statements about unicorns have a different 
ontological status than statements in physics?  And, further, why would the 
subjects of statements about unicorns have a different status than the subjects 
of physical laws? 

[NST==>I am afraid I don’t have a lot to say here.  My family spent Christmas 
day rewatching The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly.  <==nst] 

 

It seems reasonable to claim that the answer to my question is: one's 
metaphysical commitment (Platonic or Construction).

[NST==>I think this is also known as the distinction between realism and 
nominalism.  Are generals real things, or just conveniences of 

Re: [FRIAM] Pondering the slang Adulting

[Alfredo Covaleda Vélez]

Adulting sounds to me like the age at which you must take statins to
prevent a cardiovascular disease. If it's the case I just arrived to be in.

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 6:27 PM Gillian Densmore 
wrote:

> I got to talking with dad today and I hadn't though about how the slang
> adulting might have come about. My guess was in the sense of 'going off to
> be a' if you have a playful personality
> Thoughts?
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] 2019 - The end of Trumpism

[Frank Wimberly]

That too but that's Trump the person.

---
Frank Wimberly

My memoir:
https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

My scientific publications:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

On Wed, Dec 26, 2018, 4:18 PM Gillian Densmore  Huh I'd have thought Donald was more like these:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxNX6ozCty8
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 3:27 PM Frank Wimberly 
> wrote:
>
>> The Trump presidency:
>>
>> https://youtu.be/Pviuk_WuwmM
>>
>> --
>> Frank Wimberly
>>
>> My memoir:
>> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>>
>> My scientific publications:
>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>>
>> Phone (505) 670-9918
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 26, 2018, 2:31 PM Tom Johnson >
>>> You wrote: "... the RNC's media department on twitter has said they're
>>> "considering" declaring Donald unfit for 'his current position' . "
>>> Do you have the link(s) to that statement?
>>> Tom
>>>
>>> 
>>> Tom Johnson
>>> Institute for Analytic Journalism   -- Santa Fe, NM USA
>>> 505.577.6482(c)505.473.9646(h)
>>> *NM Foundation for Open Government* 
>>> *Check out It's The People's Data
>>> *
>>> http://www.jtjohnson.com   t...@jtjohnson.com
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 1:43 PM Gillian Densmore 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 FWIW the RNC's media department on twitter has said they're
 "considering" declaring Donald unfit for 'his current position' . One can
 only guess when/If they'll make good .  I didn't even know it was a thing
 that thing the can do.
 I have ton of concerns about this whole messmy uncomplicated mind
 thinks: oook if the health and well being of countery leads to a lot of
 really amazing things sometimes. What's the question? If someone simply
 can't do a job (POTUS or otherwise) why should their be any shame at all in
 them saying: oh well mea culpa turns out I can't actually run a company or
 nonproffit or what ever.
 Personally i think it's a good thing for people to try then say: well
 turns out I can't after all let me find  someone that can. On the practical
 side you tried then found out well simply don't have skills  to do so.
 That's awesome.
 Not so much to keep saying but but I can see that dumpster fire
 actually is just a dumpster with a built in incinerator unit yeah that's
 it! it was a undocumented feature or what ever.
 I just don't get why the GOP can't (or won't ) tell donald: either you
 can step down saying that, or we'll as gamers say: vote to kick you out.
 Your call. Only instead of a vote to kick  it's  a vote of noconfidence, or
 a disastrously terrible job review (impeachment) or being arrested (turns
 out that's a thing now ).
 Question: For people in parliamentarian countries  is it culture thing
 when a PM says; quits sighting They can't actually fix or run the
 parliament. . For example . Recently that was why Austria and Aultrillia
 had 5? PM's in a scant' 12 month period.

 Genuinely curious!

 On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 9:58 AM Steven A Smith 
 wrote:

> I prefer the model of Twain's "history doesn't repeat itself, it
> rhymes"...
>
> It appears that the great poem of life has lapsed into a riff of
> thug-rap (taking names and popping caps)...  which could go on for quite a
> while... apparently there are a lot of folks who want/need that kind of
> angry/negative me-first energy?
>
> And a slap-happy new year to you too!
>
> Dear Pollyanna,
>
>
>
> It will end and we’ll all learn an important lesson?
>
>
>
> Whew, I was worried there for a minute!
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Marcus
>
>
>
> *From: *Friam  
> on behalf of Jochen Fromm  
> *Reply-To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>  
> *Date: *Wednesday, December 26, 2018 at 6:53 AM
> *To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>  
> *Subject: *[FRIAM] 2019 - The end of Trumpism
>
>
>
> Merry christmas and a happy new year 2019! I hope Mueller will finish
> his report in 2019 and I assume president Trump will either resign or be
> impeached like Nixon, since the House belongs now to the democrats (Did 
> you
> know "Mueller" is the German version of "Miller" btw? As you know a miller
> is someone who creates the flour we need for life) Then Donald will spend
> the rest of his life in prison or seek asylum in Russia. This would be the
> end of "Trumpism". But who knows, it's a complex world. In hindsight we
> will learn 

Re: [FRIAM] 2019 - The end of Trumpism

[Gillian Densmore]

Huh I'd have thought Donald was more like these:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxNX6ozCty8


On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 3:27 PM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> The Trump presidency:
>
> https://youtu.be/Pviuk_WuwmM
>
> --
> Frank Wimberly
>
> My memoir:
> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>
> My scientific publications:
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>
> Phone (505) 670-9918
>
> On Wed, Dec 26, 2018, 2:31 PM Tom Johnson 
>> You wrote: "... the RNC's media department on twitter has said they're
>> "considering" declaring Donald unfit for 'his current position' . "
>> Do you have the link(s) to that statement?
>> Tom
>>
>> 
>> Tom Johnson
>> Institute for Analytic Journalism   -- Santa Fe, NM USA
>> 505.577.6482(c)505.473.9646(h)
>> *NM Foundation for Open Government* 
>> *Check out It's The People's Data
>> *
>> http://www.jtjohnson.com   t...@jtjohnson.com
>> 
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 1:43 PM Gillian Densmore 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> FWIW the RNC's media department on twitter has said they're
>>> "considering" declaring Donald unfit for 'his current position' . One can
>>> only guess when/If they'll make good .  I didn't even know it was a thing
>>> that thing the can do.
>>> I have ton of concerns about this whole messmy uncomplicated mind
>>> thinks: oook if the health and well being of countery leads to a lot of
>>> really amazing things sometimes. What's the question? If someone simply
>>> can't do a job (POTUS or otherwise) why should their be any shame at all in
>>> them saying: oh well mea culpa turns out I can't actually run a company or
>>> nonproffit or what ever.
>>> Personally i think it's a good thing for people to try then say: well
>>> turns out I can't after all let me find  someone that can. On the practical
>>> side you tried then found out well simply don't have skills  to do so.
>>> That's awesome.
>>> Not so much to keep saying but but I can see that dumpster fire actually
>>> is just a dumpster with a built in incinerator unit yeah that's it! it was
>>> a undocumented feature or what ever.
>>> I just don't get why the GOP can't (or won't ) tell donald: either you
>>> can step down saying that, or we'll as gamers say: vote to kick you out.
>>> Your call. Only instead of a vote to kick  it's  a vote of noconfidence, or
>>> a disastrously terrible job review (impeachment) or being arrested (turns
>>> out that's a thing now ).
>>> Question: For people in parliamentarian countries  is it culture thing
>>> when a PM says; quits sighting They can't actually fix or run the
>>> parliament. . For example . Recently that was why Austria and Aultrillia
>>> had 5? PM's in a scant' 12 month period.
>>>
>>> Genuinely curious!
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 9:58 AM Steven A Smith  wrote:
>>>
 I prefer the model of Twain's "history doesn't repeat itself, it
 rhymes"...

 It appears that the great poem of life has lapsed into a riff of
 thug-rap (taking names and popping caps)...  which could go on for quite a
 while... apparently there are a lot of folks who want/need that kind of
 angry/negative me-first energy?

 And a slap-happy new year to you too!

 Dear Pollyanna,



 It will end and we’ll all learn an important lesson?



 Whew, I was worried there for a minute!



 Thanks,



 Marcus



 *From: *Friam  
 on behalf of Jochen Fromm  
 *Reply-To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
  
 *Date: *Wednesday, December 26, 2018 at 6:53 AM
 *To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
  
 *Subject: *[FRIAM] 2019 - The end of Trumpism



 Merry christmas and a happy new year 2019! I hope Mueller will finish
 his report in 2019 and I assume president Trump will either resign or be
 impeached like Nixon, since the House belongs now to the democrats (Did you
 know "Mueller" is the German version of "Miller" btw? As you know a miller
 is someone who creates the flour we need for life) Then Donald will spend
 the rest of his life in prison or seek asylum in Russia. This would be the
 end of "Trumpism". But who knows, it's a complex world. In hindsight we
 will learn more about "Trumpism" as well. At the moment it seems to be a
 mixture of the original Italian fascism and post-soviet authoritarianism,
 i.e. the rule of an authoritarian leader who demands absolute loyalty and
 trusts only his family. I believe we can only decode social systems if we
 really understand the various forms of *-isms like fascism, nazism or
 communism, and how they are related.



 

Re: [FRIAM] 2019 - The end of Trumpism

[Gillian Densmore]

Tom, also on twitter from AndNow this (?) the day of the shut down Mich
Michaneal described  Donald as a 'roogue president while we have no
government...'  i haven't a clue if that'll translate to action though. The
DOJ has said many times something to the effect even they don't know if
charges made against Donald (or any other POTUS) can actually translate to
legal actions . Someone else that knows more about civice than me can
better at least guess that one.  It'd seem like he could be tried on crimes
without an impeachment being a citizen and all, I could very well be wrong
though.  At least of the watergate scandal documentaries i've seen they
didn't know for nixon of that was do able. Bill Clinton they tried... I
thought(just goin from memory) though they ultimatle got him on tax, and
obstruction charges




On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 2:31 PM Tom Johnson  wrote:

> You wrote: "... the RNC's media department on twitter has said they're
> "considering" declaring Donald unfit for 'his current position' . "
> Do you have the link(s) to that statement?
> Tom
>
> 
> Tom Johnson
> Institute for Analytic Journalism   -- Santa Fe, NM USA
> 505.577.6482(c)505.473.9646(h)
> *NM Foundation for Open Government* 
> *Check out It's The People's Data
> *
> http://www.jtjohnson.com   t...@jtjohnson.com
> 
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 1:43 PM Gillian Densmore 
> wrote:
>
>> FWIW the RNC's media department on twitter has said they're "considering"
>> declaring Donald unfit for 'his current position' . One can only guess
>> when/If they'll make good .  I didn't even know it was a thing that thing
>> the can do.
>> I have ton of concerns about this whole messmy uncomplicated mind
>> thinks: oook if the health and well being of countery leads to a lot of
>> really amazing things sometimes. What's the question? If someone simply
>> can't do a job (POTUS or otherwise) why should their be any shame at all in
>> them saying: oh well mea culpa turns out I can't actually run a company or
>> nonproffit or what ever.
>> Personally i think it's a good thing for people to try then say: well
>> turns out I can't after all let me find  someone that can. On the practical
>> side you tried then found out well simply don't have skills  to do so.
>> That's awesome.
>> Not so much to keep saying but but I can see that dumpster fire actually
>> is just a dumpster with a built in incinerator unit yeah that's it! it was
>> a undocumented feature or what ever.
>> I just don't get why the GOP can't (or won't ) tell donald: either you
>> can step down saying that, or we'll as gamers say: vote to kick you out.
>> Your call. Only instead of a vote to kick  it's  a vote of noconfidence, or
>> a disastrously terrible job review (impeachment) or being arrested (turns
>> out that's a thing now ).
>> Question: For people in parliamentarian countries  is it culture thing
>> when a PM says; quits sighting They can't actually fix or run the
>> parliament. . For example . Recently that was why Austria and Aultrillia
>> had 5? PM's in a scant' 12 month period.
>>
>> Genuinely curious!
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 9:58 AM Steven A Smith  wrote:
>>
>>> I prefer the model of Twain's "history doesn't repeat itself, it
>>> rhymes"...
>>>
>>> It appears that the great poem of life has lapsed into a riff of
>>> thug-rap (taking names and popping caps)...  which could go on for quite a
>>> while... apparently there are a lot of folks who want/need that kind of
>>> angry/negative me-first energy?
>>>
>>> And a slap-happy new year to you too!
>>>
>>> Dear Pollyanna,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It will end and we’ll all learn an important lesson?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Whew, I was worried there for a minute!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Marcus
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *Friam  
>>> on behalf of Jochen Fromm  
>>> *Reply-To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>>>  
>>> *Date: *Wednesday, December 26, 2018 at 6:53 AM
>>> *To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>>>  
>>> *Subject: *[FRIAM] 2019 - The end of Trumpism
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Merry christmas and a happy new year 2019! I hope Mueller will finish
>>> his report in 2019 and I assume president Trump will either resign or be
>>> impeached like Nixon, since the House belongs now to the democrats (Did you
>>> know "Mueller" is the German version of "Miller" btw? As you know a miller
>>> is someone who creates the flour we need for life) Then Donald will spend
>>> the rest of his life in prison or seek asylum in Russia. This would be the
>>> end of "Trumpism". But who knows, it's a complex world. In hindsight we
>>> will learn more about "Trumpism" as well. At the moment it seems to be a
>>> mixture of the original Italian fascism and post-soviet authoritarianism,

Re: [FRIAM] 2019 - The end of Trumpism

[Gary Schiltz]

"Trump supporters are not individualists, they are just people trying to
recover privilege they *didn’t earn *and now see slipping away. "

Reminds me of a radio commentator I used to listen to, either Mike Malloy
or Peter Werbe, I don't remember which. He always said that George W. Bush
was "born on third base and thought he hit a home run.".

On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 5:44 PM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> David writes:
>
>
>
> “And it would serve "the opposition" to get a clue about the fact that
> the vast majority of Trump supporters do not suffer from racism, sexism,
> 'genderism', "me-first-ism," etc. Instead recognize that their primary
> affliction is individualism - and even libertarian-ism (despite some
> obvious contradictions from the religious among them) - along with
> corollaries of "anti-government control-ism,"
> "personal-responsibility-ism," and
> "my-values-are-just-as-valid-as-yours-ism."
>
>
>
> The racism and sexism arise from the false supposition that personal
> responsibility is all that is required to thrive.   They fail to
> acknowledge that public policy can level the playing field and give
> everyone a fair chance to develop their own values and priorities for their
> life – to become *individuals*. Trump supporters are not
> individualists, they are just people trying to recover privilege they *didn’t
> earn *and now see slipping away.   They are worse than conventional
> conservatives because they lack any moral center.They want to see
> regressive norms because those are the only norms they can get their head
> around.
>
>
>
> Marcus
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] 2019 - The end of Trumpism

[Gillian Densmore]

Here's an older one
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2017/07/19/lawmakers-urge-gop-act-more-assertive-check-against-president/491663001/


On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 3:44 PM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> David writes:
>
>
>
> “And it would serve "the opposition" to get a clue about the fact that
> the vast majority of Trump supporters do not suffer from racism, sexism,
> 'genderism', "me-first-ism," etc. Instead recognize that their primary
> affliction is individualism - and even libertarian-ism (despite some
> obvious contradictions from the religious among them) - along with
> corollaries of "anti-government control-ism,"
> "personal-responsibility-ism," and
> "my-values-are-just-as-valid-as-yours-ism."
>
>
>
> The racism and sexism arise from the false supposition that personal
> responsibility is all that is required to thrive.   They fail to
> acknowledge that public policy can level the playing field and give
> everyone a fair chance to develop their own values and priorities for their
> life – to become *individuals*. Trump supporters are not
> individualists, they are just people trying to recover privilege they *didn’t
> earn *and now see slipping away.   They are worse than conventional
> conservatives because they lack any moral center.They want to see
> regressive norms because those are the only norms they can get their head
> around.
>
>
>
> Marcus
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] 2019 - The end of Trumpism

[Marcus Daniels]

David writes:

“And it would serve "the opposition" to get a clue about the fact that the vast 
majority of Trump supporters do not suffer from racism, sexism, 'genderism', 
"me-first-ism," etc. Instead recognize that their primary affliction is 
individualism - and even libertarian-ism (despite some obvious contradictions 
from the religious among them) - along with corollaries of "anti-government 
control-ism," "personal-responsibility-ism," and 
"my-values-are-just-as-valid-as-yours-ism."

The racism and sexism arise from the false supposition that personal 
responsibility is all that is required to thrive.   They fail to acknowledge 
that public policy can level the playing field and give everyone a fair chance 
to develop their own values and priorities for their life – to become 
individuals. Trump supporters are not individualists, they are just people 
trying to recover privilege they didn’t earn and now see slipping away.   They 
are worse than conventional conservatives because they lack any moral center.   
 They want to see regressive norms because those are the only norms they can 
get their head around.

Marcus

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] 2019 - The end of Trumpism

[Frank Wimberly]

The Trump presidency:

https://youtu.be/Pviuk_WuwmM

--
Frank Wimberly

My memoir:
https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

My scientific publications:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

On Wed, Dec 26, 2018, 2:31 PM Tom Johnson  You wrote: "... the RNC's media department on twitter has said they're
> "considering" declaring Donald unfit for 'his current position' . "
> Do you have the link(s) to that statement?
> Tom
>
> 
> Tom Johnson
> Institute for Analytic Journalism   -- Santa Fe, NM USA
> 505.577.6482(c)505.473.9646(h)
> *NM Foundation for Open Government* 
> *Check out It's The People's Data
> *
> http://www.jtjohnson.com   t...@jtjohnson.com
> 
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 1:43 PM Gillian Densmore 
> wrote:
>
>> FWIW the RNC's media department on twitter has said they're "considering"
>> declaring Donald unfit for 'his current position' . One can only guess
>> when/If they'll make good .  I didn't even know it was a thing that thing
>> the can do.
>> I have ton of concerns about this whole messmy uncomplicated mind
>> thinks: oook if the health and well being of countery leads to a lot of
>> really amazing things sometimes. What's the question? If someone simply
>> can't do a job (POTUS or otherwise) why should their be any shame at all in
>> them saying: oh well mea culpa turns out I can't actually run a company or
>> nonproffit or what ever.
>> Personally i think it's a good thing for people to try then say: well
>> turns out I can't after all let me find  someone that can. On the practical
>> side you tried then found out well simply don't have skills  to do so.
>> That's awesome.
>> Not so much to keep saying but but I can see that dumpster fire actually
>> is just a dumpster with a built in incinerator unit yeah that's it! it was
>> a undocumented feature or what ever.
>> I just don't get why the GOP can't (or won't ) tell donald: either you
>> can step down saying that, or we'll as gamers say: vote to kick you out.
>> Your call. Only instead of a vote to kick  it's  a vote of noconfidence, or
>> a disastrously terrible job review (impeachment) or being arrested (turns
>> out that's a thing now ).
>> Question: For people in parliamentarian countries  is it culture thing
>> when a PM says; quits sighting They can't actually fix or run the
>> parliament. . For example . Recently that was why Austria and Aultrillia
>> had 5? PM's in a scant' 12 month period.
>>
>> Genuinely curious!
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 9:58 AM Steven A Smith  wrote:
>>
>>> I prefer the model of Twain's "history doesn't repeat itself, it
>>> rhymes"...
>>>
>>> It appears that the great poem of life has lapsed into a riff of
>>> thug-rap (taking names and popping caps)...  which could go on for quite a
>>> while... apparently there are a lot of folks who want/need that kind of
>>> angry/negative me-first energy?
>>>
>>> And a slap-happy new year to you too!
>>>
>>> Dear Pollyanna,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It will end and we’ll all learn an important lesson?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Whew, I was worried there for a minute!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Marcus
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *Friam  
>>> on behalf of Jochen Fromm  
>>> *Reply-To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>>>  
>>> *Date: *Wednesday, December 26, 2018 at 6:53 AM
>>> *To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>>>  
>>> *Subject: *[FRIAM] 2019 - The end of Trumpism
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Merry christmas and a happy new year 2019! I hope Mueller will finish
>>> his report in 2019 and I assume president Trump will either resign or be
>>> impeached like Nixon, since the House belongs now to the democrats (Did you
>>> know "Mueller" is the German version of "Miller" btw? As you know a miller
>>> is someone who creates the flour we need for life) Then Donald will spend
>>> the rest of his life in prison or seek asylum in Russia. This would be the
>>> end of "Trumpism". But who knows, it's a complex world. In hindsight we
>>> will learn more about "Trumpism" as well. At the moment it seems to be a
>>> mixture of the original Italian fascism and post-soviet authoritarianism,
>>> i.e. the rule of an authoritarian leader who demands absolute loyalty and
>>> trusts only his family. I believe we can only decode social systems if we
>>> really understand the various forms of *-isms like fascism, nazism or
>>> communism, and how they are related.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -Jochen
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>> archives back to 

Re: [FRIAM] 2019 - The end of Trumpism

[Tom Johnson]

You wrote: "... the RNC's media department on twitter has said they're
"considering" declaring Donald unfit for 'his current position' . "
Do you have the link(s) to that statement?
Tom


Tom Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism   -- Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c)505.473.9646(h)
*NM Foundation for Open Government* 
*Check out It's The People's Data
*
http://www.jtjohnson.com   t...@jtjohnson.com



On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 1:43 PM Gillian Densmore 
wrote:

> FWIW the RNC's media department on twitter has said they're "considering"
> declaring Donald unfit for 'his current position' . One can only guess
> when/If they'll make good .  I didn't even know it was a thing that thing
> the can do.
> I have ton of concerns about this whole messmy uncomplicated mind
> thinks: oook if the health and well being of countery leads to a lot of
> really amazing things sometimes. What's the question? If someone simply
> can't do a job (POTUS or otherwise) why should their be any shame at all in
> them saying: oh well mea culpa turns out I can't actually run a company or
> nonproffit or what ever.
> Personally i think it's a good thing for people to try then say: well
> turns out I can't after all let me find  someone that can. On the practical
> side you tried then found out well simply don't have skills  to do so.
> That's awesome.
> Not so much to keep saying but but I can see that dumpster fire actually
> is just a dumpster with a built in incinerator unit yeah that's it! it was
> a undocumented feature or what ever.
> I just don't get why the GOP can't (or won't ) tell donald: either you can
> step down saying that, or we'll as gamers say: vote to kick you out. Your
> call. Only instead of a vote to kick  it's  a vote of noconfidence, or a
> disastrously terrible job review (impeachment) or being arrested (turns out
> that's a thing now ).
> Question: For people in parliamentarian countries  is it culture thing
> when a PM says; quits sighting They can't actually fix or run the
> parliament. . For example . Recently that was why Austria and Aultrillia
> had 5? PM's in a scant' 12 month period.
>
> Genuinely curious!
>
> On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 9:58 AM Steven A Smith  wrote:
>
>> I prefer the model of Twain's "history doesn't repeat itself, it
>> rhymes"...
>>
>> It appears that the great poem of life has lapsed into a riff of thug-rap
>> (taking names and popping caps)...  which could go on for quite a while...
>> apparently there are a lot of folks who want/need that kind of
>> angry/negative me-first energy?
>>
>> And a slap-happy new year to you too!
>>
>> Dear Pollyanna,
>>
>>
>>
>> It will end and we’ll all learn an important lesson?
>>
>>
>>
>> Whew, I was worried there for a minute!
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>>
>>
>> Marcus
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Friam   on
>> behalf of Jochen Fromm  
>> *Reply-To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>>  
>> *Date: *Wednesday, December 26, 2018 at 6:53 AM
>> *To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>>  
>> *Subject: *[FRIAM] 2019 - The end of Trumpism
>>
>>
>>
>> Merry christmas and a happy new year 2019! I hope Mueller will finish his
>> report in 2019 and I assume president Trump will either resign or be
>> impeached like Nixon, since the House belongs now to the democrats (Did you
>> know "Mueller" is the German version of "Miller" btw? As you know a miller
>> is someone who creates the flour we need for life) Then Donald will spend
>> the rest of his life in prison or seek asylum in Russia. This would be the
>> end of "Trumpism". But who knows, it's a complex world. In hindsight we
>> will learn more about "Trumpism" as well. At the moment it seems to be a
>> mixture of the original Italian fascism and post-soviet authoritarianism,
>> i.e. the rule of an authoritarian leader who demands absolute loyalty and
>> trusts only his family. I believe we can only decode social systems if we
>> really understand the various forms of *-isms like fascism, nazism or
>> communism, and how they are related.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Jochen
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>> FRIAM-COMIC 

Re: [FRIAM] 2019 - The end of Trumpism

[Jochen Fromm]

I'm especially interested in understanding the different kind of *- isms, 
individually and collectively, like Erich Fromm. Narcissism on a collective 
level of a whole nation is similar to nationalism. It is the belief that the 
own nation is superior to the rest and far better than others. I believe Erich 
Fromm observed something similar, but I don't remember the book where he 
mentions it. He tried to analyze Nazism in Germany from a psychological and 
sociological perspective. And he spent some time in Santa Fe, too (no, we are 
unfortunately not related). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism
Authoritarianism on an individual level could be considered as the expectance 
of strict obedience to authority, for instance the family father that expects 
strict obedience to his authority. What it has in common which narcissism is 
the lack of concern for the wishes and opinions of others. On a collective 
level it appears in authoritarian regimes and dictatorships, where usually a 
ruling family governs a country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarianism
Trumpism has elements of both MAGA nationalism and authoritarianism. The 45 
president demands absolute loyalty (as former FBI director Comey has reported) 
and attacks constantly the media. If Trump is successful in his fight against 
CNN, the NY Times and freedom of speech in general, and only FoxNews is left, 
then America would indeed begin to resemble a post-totalitarian authoritarian 
regime we know from the former Soviet Union. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism
Usually these kind of systems can be observed if an empire or kingdom has 
collapsed and the institutions are gone or severely weakened. In a sense, 
communism in the Soviet Union can be seen as a post-authoritarian totalitarian 
regime, because it appeared after the authoritarian empire of the tsar 
disappeared in the Russian Revolution, similar to Nazism in Germany which 
appeared shortly after the German empire and the last German emperor 
disappeared (who lived in the Dutch exile) or Napoleonism which appeared 
shortly after the French kingdom disappeared in the French Revolution. 
The question is will the American institutions be strong enough to stop the 
emerging authoritarianism? Since America is one of the oldest democracy of the 
world, there is 
hope!https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/the-real-birth-of-american-democracy-83232825/
-Jochen

 Original message From: Prof David West  
Date: 12/26/18  19:16  (GMT+01:00) To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] 
2019 - The end of Trumpism 
Mueller will disclose nothing except what everyone already knows - Trump and 
his circle are immoral opportunists - totally corrupt and completely blind to 
those occasions they cross the thin line of absolutely technical legality 
(however much they violate the spirit of law) into the indictable and 
convict-able behavior.



And Trump will survive and almost certainly be re-elected. Especially if the 
opposition is Bernie, Beto, or Biden - or, and don't dismiss this out of hand, 
Hillary.



And we should learn a lot about isms: perhaps most importantly the difference 
between narcissism and fascism (nobody is getting that difference, so far).



And it would serve "the opposition" to get a clue about the fact that the vast 
majority of Trump supporters do not suffer from racism, sexism, 'genderism', 
"me-first-ism," etc. Instead recognize that their primary affliction is 
individualism - and even libertarian-ism (despite some obvious contradictions 
from the religious among them) - along with corollaries of "anti-government 
control-ism," "personal-responsibility-ism," and 
"my-values-are-just-as-valid-as-yours-ism."



davew





On Wed, Dec 26, 2018, at 9:36 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

Dear Pollyanna,
 
It will end and we’ll all learn an important lesson?     
 
Whew, I was worried there for a minute!
 
Thanks,
 
Marcus
 
From: Friam  on behalf of Jochen Fromm 

 Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 

 Date: Wednesday, December 26, 2018 at 6:53 AM
 To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
 Subject: [FRIAM] 2019 - The end of Trumpism
 

Merry christmas and a happy new year 2019! I hope Mueller will finish his 
report in 2019 and I assume president Trump will either resign or be impeached 
like Nixon, since the House belongs now to the democrats (Did you know 
"Mueller" is
 the German version of "Miller" btw? As you know a miller is someone who 
creates the flour we need for life) Then Donald will spend the rest of his life 
in prison or seek asylum in Russia. This would be the end of "Trumpism". But 
who knows, it's a complex world.
 In hindsight we will learn more about "Trumpism" as well. At the moment it 
seems to be a mixture of the original Italian fascism and post-soviet 
authoritarianism, i.e. the rule of an authoritarian leader who demands absolute 
loyalty and trusts only his family.
 I 

Re: [FRIAM] 2019 - The end of Trumpism

[Gillian Densmore]

FWIW the RNC's media department on twitter has said they're "considering"
declaring Donald unfit for 'his current position' . One can only guess
when/If they'll make good .  I didn't even know it was a thing that thing
the can do.
I have ton of concerns about this whole messmy uncomplicated mind
thinks: oook if the health and well being of countery leads to a lot of
really amazing things sometimes. What's the question? If someone simply
can't do a job (POTUS or otherwise) why should their be any shame at all in
them saying: oh well mea culpa turns out I can't actually run a company or
nonproffit or what ever.
Personally i think it's a good thing for people to try then say: well turns
out I can't after all let me find  someone that can. On the practical side
you tried then found out well simply don't have skills  to do so. That's
awesome.
Not so much to keep saying but but I can see that dumpster fire actually is
just a dumpster with a built in incinerator unit yeah that's it! it was a
undocumented feature or what ever.
I just don't get why the GOP can't (or won't ) tell donald: either you can
step down saying that, or we'll as gamers say: vote to kick you out. Your
call. Only instead of a vote to kick  it's  a vote of noconfidence, or a
disastrously terrible job review (impeachment) or being arrested (turns out
that's a thing now ).
Question: For people in parliamentarian countries  is it culture thing when
a PM says; quits sighting They can't actually fix or run the parliament. .
For example . Recently that was why Austria and Aultrillia had 5? PM's in a
scant' 12 month period.

Genuinely curious!

On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 9:58 AM Steven A Smith  wrote:

> I prefer the model of Twain's "history doesn't repeat itself, it
> rhymes"...
>
> It appears that the great poem of life has lapsed into a riff of thug-rap
> (taking names and popping caps)...  which could go on for quite a while...
> apparently there are a lot of folks who want/need that kind of
> angry/negative me-first energy?
>
> And a slap-happy new year to you too!
>
> Dear Pollyanna,
>
>
>
> It will end and we’ll all learn an important lesson?
>
>
>
> Whew, I was worried there for a minute!
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Marcus
>
>
>
> *From: *Friam   on
> behalf of Jochen Fromm  
> *Reply-To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>  
> *Date: *Wednesday, December 26, 2018 at 6:53 AM
> *To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>  
> *Subject: *[FRIAM] 2019 - The end of Trumpism
>
>
>
> Merry christmas and a happy new year 2019! I hope Mueller will finish his
> report in 2019 and I assume president Trump will either resign or be
> impeached like Nixon, since the House belongs now to the democrats (Did you
> know "Mueller" is the German version of "Miller" btw? As you know a miller
> is someone who creates the flour we need for life) Then Donald will spend
> the rest of his life in prison or seek asylum in Russia. This would be the
> end of "Trumpism". But who knows, it's a complex world. In hindsight we
> will learn more about "Trumpism" as well. At the moment it seems to be a
> mixture of the original Italian fascism and post-soviet authoritarianism,
> i.e. the rule of an authoritarian leader who demands absolute loyalty and
> trusts only his family. I believe we can only decode social systems if we
> really understand the various forms of *-isms like fascism, nazism or
> communism, and how they are related.
>
>
>
> -Jochen
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] Pondering the slang Adulting

[Nick Thompson]

Owen, 

 

I think this is a wonderful example of the coming together of  two meanings.  
The idea of dangling some bait for some high=minded poor fool to bite, and the 
idea of lurking in a cave while doing it.  Language is less like a genealogy 
and more like the threads of a delta, where rivulets divide and reconverge.  

 

Nick 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Owen Densmore
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2018 11:06 AM
To: Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Pondering the slang Adulting

 

I'm catching up on old email. Trolling is lovely although a horrid but 
sometimes worthy pursuit.

 

I like this:

 

troll1

/trōl/ 

noun

noun: troll; plural noun: trolls

1.a mythical, cave-dwelling being depicted in folklore as either a giant or 
a dwarf, typically having a very ugly appearance.


synonyms:

goblin, hobgoblin, gnome, halfling, demon, monster, bugaboo, ogre

"the storybook trolls who live under the bridge"

Origin



early 17th century: from Old Norse and Swedish troll, Danish trold . The first 
English use is from Shetland; the term was adopted more widely into English in 
the mid 19th century.

troll2

/trōl/ 

noun

noun: troll; plural noun: trolls

1.1.

a person who makes a deliberately offensive or provocative online post.

oINFORMAL

a deliberately offensive or provocative online posting.

2.2.

a line or bait used in trolling for fish.

verb

verb: troll; 3rd person present: trolls; past tense: trolled; past participle: 
trolled; gerund or present participle: trolling

1.1.

INFORMAL

make a deliberately offensive or provocative online post with the aim of 
upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them.

"if people are obviously trolling then I'll delete your posts and do my best to 
ban you"

2.2.

fish by trailing a baited line along behind a boat.

"we trolled for mackerel"

ocarefully and systematically search an area for something.

"a group of companies trolling for partnership opportunities"

3.3.

sing (something) in a happy and carefree way.

"troll the ancient Yuletide carol"

4.4.

BRITISH

walk; stroll.

"we all trolled into town"

Origin

late Middle English (in the sense ‘stroll, roll’): origin uncertain; compare 
with Old French troller ‘wander here and there (in search of game)’ and Middle 
High German trollen ‘stroll.’


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] 2019 - The end of Trumpism

[uǝlƃ ☣]

I always insist on discussing politics and religion in polite company, despite 
the ancient wisdom to avoid them.  Over this holiday season, I've had the 
opportunity to witness a common thread in "their" argument(s):

  "In my experience ..."

Perhaps it stood out, first, because of our haranguing Peirce's "experience" 
conception of the real.  But I've seen hints of it in the defense (some) 
atheists present for claiming Islam is a worse religion than Christianity.  In 
any case, the 1st episode allowed me to provide a counter-argument.  We were 
talking about subtle forms of racism and my fellow discussant suggested that, 
Oregon being one of the most racist States, many people who seem racist are 
not, actually.  She said their statements about "most black people" or "most 
mexicans ..." (little "m" because they don't actually mean citizens of Mexico 
when they use the word) are simply statements of their "experience".  Trying to 
steelman her position, she's claiming that if someone owns, say, a farm and 
employs a lot of brown skinned people who speak Spanish, when they talk about 
mexicans, they're speaking from their experience of them.  And, to some 
mysterious extent, that argument is sound (if invalid).

My counter argument was to challenge that such people don't even know what a 
"mexican" is.  They can't define the term. Their usage is inconsitent.  Etc. 
And if you don't have any serious understanding of the concept you've induced, 
then a) not only is the induction invalid, but b) any generalization from such 
induction is b1) flawed because ... induction and b2) flawed because the 
induction is invalid in the first place.  She ceded the argument.

The 2nd episode was Xmas eve at the only restaurant that was open here'bouts 
(Renee' was on call and I can't cook).  The brother of the owner was at the bar 
(where we always sit), along with a few employees enjoying the slow night.  
Said brother owns a few restaurants in LA and was complaining about all the 
liberals there.  He was happy about the shutdown and asserted that "the 
government is the new mafia".  I attempted to show that as a false equivalence, 
but failed ... perhaps because he was 2 sheets gone.  After we paid and were 
about to leave, he pulled the same thread: "I hope you know what I'm saying is 
only what I've learned from my own experiences."  He was attempting to end the 
evening on a conciliatory note.  I didn't even try to trash his conception of 
"his own experiences".  Shame on me.

But I'm now on the lookout for permutations on experiential rhetoric like the 
"my values are just as valid as yours" ... and, more importantly, ways in which 
such can be seen as absurd as it is.

On 12/26/18 10:16 AM, Prof David West wrote:
>  - along with
> corollaries of "anti-government control-ism," "personal-responsibility-
> ism," and "my-values-are-just-as-valid-as-yours-ism."

-- 
☣ uǝlƃ


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] 2019 - The end of Trumpism

[Marcus Daniels]

Well, I’ll do my best not to smile as he sucks their blood dry!

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 26, 2018, at 10:16 AM, Prof David West 
mailto:profw...@fastmail.fm>> wrote:

Mueller will disclose nothing except what everyone already knows - Trump and 
his circle are immoral opportunists - totally corrupt and completely blind to 
those occasions they cross the thin line of absolutely technical legality 
(however much they violate the spirit of law) into the indictable and 
convict-able behavior.

And Trump will survive and almost certainly be re-elected. Especially if the 
opposition is Bernie, Beto, or Biden - or, and don't dismiss this out of hand, 
Hillary.

And we should learn a lot about isms: perhaps most importantly the difference 
between narcissism and fascism (nobody is getting that difference, so far).

And it would serve "the opposition" to get a clue about the fact that the vast 
majority of Trump supporters do not suffer from racism, sexism, 'genderism', 
"me-first-ism," etc. Instead recognize that their primary affliction is 
individualism - and even libertarian-ism (despite some obvious contradictions 
from the religious among them) - along with corollaries of "anti-government 
control-ism," "personal-responsibility-ism," and 
"my-values-are-just-as-valid-as-yours-ism."

davew


On Wed, Dec 26, 2018, at 9:36 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

Dear Pollyanna,



It will end and we’ll all learn an important lesson?



Whew, I was worried there for a minute!



Thanks,



Marcus



From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> on 
behalf of Jochen Fromm mailto:j...@cas-group.net>>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Date: Wednesday, December 26, 2018 at 6:53 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: [FRIAM] 2019 - The end of Trumpism



Merry christmas and a happy new year 2019! I hope Mueller will finish his 
report in 2019 and I assume president Trump will either resign or be impeached 
like Nixon, since the House belongs now to the democrats (Did you know 
"Mueller" is the German version of "Miller" btw? As you know a miller is 
someone who creates the flour we need for life) Then Donald will spend the rest 
of his life in prison or seek asylum in Russia. This would be the end of 
"Trumpism". But who knows, it's a complex world. In hindsight we will learn 
more about "Trumpism" as well. At the moment it seems to be a mixture of the 
original Italian fascism and post-soviet authoritarianism, i.e. the rule of an 
authoritarian leader who demands absolute loyalty and trusts only his family. I 
believe we can only decode social systems if we really understand the various 
forms of *-isms like fascism, nazism or communism, and how they are related.



-Jochen






FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] 2019 - The end of Trumpism

[Frank Wimberly]

Trump's approval rating over time.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/

---
Frank Wimberly

My memoir:
https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

My scientific publications:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

On Wed, Dec 26, 2018, 11:16 AM Prof David West  Mueller will disclose nothing except what everyone already knows - Trump
> and his circle are immoral opportunists - totally corrupt and completely
> blind to those occasions they cross the thin line of absolutely technical
> legality (however much they violate the spirit of law) into the indictable
> and convict-able behavior.
>
> And Trump will survive and almost certainly be re-elected. Especially if
> the opposition is Bernie, Beto, or Biden - or, and don't dismiss this out
> of hand, Hillary.
>
> And we should learn a lot about isms: perhaps most importantly the
> difference between narcissism and fascism (nobody is getting that
> difference, so far).
>
> And it would serve "the opposition" to get a clue about the fact that the
> vast majority of Trump supporters do not suffer from racism, sexism,
> 'genderism', "me-first-ism," etc. Instead recognize that their primary
> affliction is individualism - and even libertarian-ism (despite some
> obvious contradictions from the religious among them) - along with
> corollaries of "anti-government control-ism,"
> "personal-responsibility-ism," and
> "my-values-are-just-as-valid-as-yours-ism."
>
> davew
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 26, 2018, at 9:36 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>
> Dear Pollyanna,
>
>
>
> It will end and we’ll all learn an important lesson?
>
>
>
> Whew, I was worried there for a minute!
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Marcus
>
>
>
> *From: *Friam  on behalf of Jochen Fromm <
> j...@cas-group.net>
> *Reply-To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, December 26, 2018 at 6:53 AM
> *To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject: *[FRIAM] 2019 - The end of Trumpism
>
>
>
> Merry christmas and a happy new year 2019! I hope Mueller will finish his
> report in 2019 and I assume president Trump will either resign or be
> impeached like Nixon, since the House belongs now to the democrats (Did you
> know "Mueller" is the German version of "Miller" btw? As you know a miller
> is someone who creates the flour we need for life) Then Donald will spend
> the rest of his life in prison or seek asylum in Russia. This would be the
> end of "Trumpism". But who knows, it's a complex world. In hindsight we
> will learn more about "Trumpism" as well. At the moment it seems to be a
> mixture of the original Italian fascism and post-soviet authoritarianism,
> i.e. the rule of an authoritarian leader who demands absolute loyalty and
> trusts only his family. I believe we can only decode social systems if we
> really understand the various forms of *-isms like fascism, nazism or
> communism, and how they are related.
>
>
>
> -Jochen
>
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

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Re: [FRIAM] 2019 - The end of Trumpism

[Prof David West]

Mueller will disclose nothing except what everyone already knows - Trump
and his circle are immoral opportunists - totally corrupt and completely
blind to those occasions they cross the thin line of absolutely
technical legality (however much they violate the spirit of law) into
the indictable and convict-able behavior.
And Trump will survive and almost certainly be re-elected. Especially if
the opposition is Bernie, Beto, or Biden - or, and don't dismiss this
out of hand, Hillary.
And we should learn a lot about isms: perhaps most importantly the
difference between narcissism and fascism (nobody is getting that
difference, so far).
And it would serve "the opposition" to get a clue about the fact that
the vast majority of Trump supporters do not suffer from racism, sexism,
'genderism', "me-first-ism," etc. Instead recognize that their primary
affliction is individualism - and even libertarian-ism (despite some
obvious contradictions from the religious among them) - along with
corollaries of "anti-government control-ism," "personal-responsibility-
ism," and "my-values-are-just-as-valid-as-yours-ism."
davew


On Wed, Dec 26, 2018, at 9:36 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Dear Pollyanna,


>  


> It will end and we’ll all learn an important lesson? 


>  


> Whew, I was worried there for a minute!


>  


> Thanks,


>  


> Marcus


>  


> *From: *Friam  on behalf of Jochen Fromm
>  *Reply-To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
> Coffee Group  *Date: *Wednesday, December 26, 2018
> at 6:53 AM *To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>  *Subject: *[FRIAM] 2019 - The end of Trumpism>  


> Merry christmas and a happy new year 2019! I hope Mueller will finish
> his report in 2019 and I assume president Trump will either resign or
> be impeached like Nixon, since the House belongs now to the democrats
> (Did you know "Mueller" is the German version of "Miller" btw? As you
> know a miller is someone who creates the flour we need for life) Then
> Donald will spend the rest of his life in prison or seek asylum in
> Russia. This would be the end of "Trumpism". But who knows, it's a
> complex world. In hindsight we will learn more about "Trumpism" as
> well. At the moment it seems to be a mixture of the original Italian
> fascism and post-soviet authoritarianism, i.e. the rule of an
> authoritarian leader who demands absolute loyalty and trusts only his
> family. I believe we can only decode social systems if we really
> understand the various forms of *-isms like fascism, nazism or
> communism, and how they are related.>  


> -Jochen


>  


>  


> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove


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Re: [FRIAM] Pondering the slang Adulting

[Owen Densmore]

I'm catching up on old email. Trolling is lovely although a horrid but
sometimes worthy pursuit.

I like this:

troll1
/trōl/
*noun*
noun: *troll*; plural noun: *trolls*

   1. a mythical, cave-dwelling being depicted in folklore as either a
   giant or a dwarf, typically having a very ugly appearance.
   synonyms: goblin, hobgoblin, gnome, halfling, demon, monster, bugaboo,
   ogre
   "the storybook trolls who live under the bridge"

Origin
[image: image.png]
early 17th century: from Old Norse and Swedish *troll*, Danish *trold* .
The first English use is from Shetland; the term was adopted more widely
into English in the mid 19th century.
troll2
/trōl/
*noun*
noun: *troll*; plural noun: *trolls*

   1. 1.
   a person who makes a deliberately offensive or provocative online post.
   - INFORMAL
  a deliberately offensive or provocative online posting.
  2. 2.
   a line or bait used in trolling for fish.

*verb*
verb: *troll*; 3rd person present: *trolls*; past tense: *trolled*; past
participle: *trolled*; gerund or present participle: *trolling*

   1. 1.
   INFORMAL
   make a deliberately offensive or provocative online post with the aim of
   upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them.
   "if people are obviously trolling then I'll delete your posts and do my
   best to ban you"
   2. 2.
   fish by trailing a baited line along behind a boat.
   "we *trolled for* mackerel"
   - carefully and systematically search an area for something.
  "a group of companies trolling for partnership opportunities"
  3. 3.
   sing (something) in a happy and carefree way.
   "troll the ancient Yuletide carol"
   4. 4.
   BRITISH
   walk; stroll.
   "we all trolled into town"

Origin
late Middle English (in the sense ‘stroll, roll’): origin uncertain;
compare with Old French *troller* ‘wander here and there (in search of
game)’ and Middle High German *trollen* ‘stroll.’

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Re: [FRIAM] Congress votes to make open government data the default

[Owen Densmore]

I noticed this:

While the United States is not the first or even the second democracy to
pass an open data law –  France and  Germany have that distinction


Have we gathered any information as to the impact of open data laws? It's a
massive change so maybe we can detect changes.

   -- Owen

On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 10:12 AM Ron Newman  wrote:

>
> https://e-pluribusunum.org/2018/12/21/congress-made-open-government-data-the-default-in-the-united-states/
>
> Ron Newman, M.S., M.M.E.
> Founder, IdeaTreeLive.com  Knowledge Modeling
> Piano 
> Blog 
>

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Re: [FRIAM] 2019 - The end of Trumpism

[Gillian Densmore]

I am skeptical Donald will resign.

On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 10:39 AM Marcus Daniels 
wrote:

> Steve writes:
>
>
>
> "Democracy is the tyranny of the majority over the minority"
>
>
>
> The majority elected Hillary Clinton.
>
>
>
> Marcus
>
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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>

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Re: [FRIAM] 2019 - The end of Trumpism

[Marcus Daniels]

Steve writes:

"Democracy is the tyranny of the majority over the minority"

The majority elected Hillary Clinton.

Marcus



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Re: [FRIAM] 2019 - The end of Trumpism

[Steven A Smith]

Jochen -

A little less, tongue-in-cheek:

Thanks for the positive thoughts... and I think you can add to your list 
of "isms" we need to understand 'more better' to avoid giving them more 
power over us are other abstractions like "democracy" and 
"capitalism".    I grew up worshiping the latter two unquestioningly and 
climbing the ladders they offered as fast as I could, even though I am 
pretty sure I "heard" the muffled cries of those whose heads I was 
stepping on to "climb" and the "feel" of their fingers under my feet as 
they tried to climb the very same rungs I was clambering up.


_Democracy_ was summarized well for me  (it is only a point-indicator, 
but a significant one) as "Democracy is the tyranny of the majority over 
the minority".   It became most poignant to me in 2000 when the 
Republican's used their outsized lung-capacity to "blow the flipped coin 
of a hung-election over" and then claimed a "mandate".   The Donald and 
the very same Republican Machine did it again (if differently in detail) 
in 2016, shouting MANDATE! even louder.   Had the Dems been able to blow 
the coin over the other way in 2000 or if they had been better at 
gerrymandering and social engineering in 2016 (I claim they were good 
enough at the latter to put Hillary in front of Bernie for the 
"finals"), THEY would have claimed a mandate, although probably with 
less overt belligerence, but perhaps to the same effect... a significant 
tyranny of a pseudo-majority over a pseudo-minority.


_Capitalism_ isn't entirely synonymous with _Consumerism_ but they seem 
very deeply entwined... and the most obvious hazard of Capitalism is the 
truism that we love to hate of "the rich get richer" (and in complement, 
"poor get poorer").  In a time when Bush-II could declare in the wake of 
9/11 "just go out and buy something!" (backed up by a small tax-rebate 
to get the spending pump primed?) as a presumed remedy to keep the 
Terrorist's attack on Wall Street from rippling into the 
consumer-confidence (extravagance?) economy, and now with Trump 
imagining that tearing down any regulatory feedback (legal and social) 
on our exploitative economy is the same as "creating wealth" and that 
hold interest rates near zero (effectively subsidizing big-Capital) is 
the same as having "healthy growth".    It might also be noted that we 
don't have a phrase for "healthy steady-state" or "healthy pull-back".   
We only know how to stimulate growth/expansion/usery/exploitation every 
way we can until the resulting bubble collapses under it's own 
weight/thinness.


A decade or two ago *I* might have responded to this kind of talk with a 
confrontational "so you would rather have totalitarian/fascism???" 
without thinking far enough to realize that a truly healthy way of being 
(locally and globally) might be something fundamentally different than 
what we've discovered in our myriad experiments in economics and 
politics. At the same time, paradoxically, while *fundamentally* 
different, that difference may be in subtle qualities, not in 
quantity.    It might not require us to deny the fact of human (animal 
appetites) for material comforts and social relevance... and in fact, it 
may depend on doing exactly that without extreme over-indulgences in 
either.    The Trump family is a pretty good example of how we fetishize 
extreme indulgences in both material wealth and social significance.


May 2019 unfold as it will!  I for one, feel lucky to be living in these 
"interesting times", no matter how "inconvenient" many of the details 
seem to be for me, mine, and those much less fortunate than "we".


 - Steve

I prefer the model of Twain's "history doesn't repeat itself, it 
rhymes"...


It appears that the great poem of life has lapsed into a riff of 
thug-rap (taking names and popping caps)...  which could go on for 
quite a while... apparently there are a lot of folks who want/need 
that kind of angry/negative me-first energy?


And a slap-happy new year to you too!


Dear Pollyanna,

It will end and we’ll all learn an important lesson?

Whew, I was worried there for a minute!

Thanks,

Marcus

*From: *Friam  on behalf of Jochen Fromm 

*Reply-To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 


*Date: *Wednesday, December 26, 2018 at 6:53 AM
*To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 


*Subject: *[FRIAM] 2019 - The end of Trumpism

Merry christmas and a happy new year 2019! I hope Mueller will finish 
his report in 2019 and I assume president Trump will either resign or 
be impeached like Nixon, since the House belongs now to the democrats 
(Did you know "Mueller" is the German version of "Miller" btw? As you 
know a miller is someone who creates the flour we need for life) Then 
Donald will spend the rest of his life in prison or seek asylum in 
Russia. This would be the end of "Trumpism". But who knows, it's a 
complex world. In hindsight we will learn more about "Trumpism" as 
well. At the moment it 

[FRIAM] Congress votes to make open government data the default

[Ron Newman]

https://e-pluribusunum.org/2018/12/21/congress-made-open-government-data-the-default-in-the-united-states/

Ron Newman, M.S., M.M.E.
Founder, IdeaTreeLive.com  Knowledge Modeling
Piano 
Blog 

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] 2019 - The end of Trumpism

[Steven A Smith]

I prefer the model of Twain's "history doesn't repeat itself, it rhymes"...

It appears that the great poem of life has lapsed into a riff of 
thug-rap (taking names and popping caps)...  which could go on for quite 
a while... apparently there are a lot of folks who want/need that kind 
of angry/negative me-first energy?


And a slap-happy new year to you too!


Dear Pollyanna,

It will end and we’ll all learn an important lesson?

Whew, I was worried there for a minute!

Thanks,

Marcus

*From: *Friam  on behalf of Jochen Fromm 

*Reply-To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 


*Date: *Wednesday, December 26, 2018 at 6:53 AM
*To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 


*Subject: *[FRIAM] 2019 - The end of Trumpism

Merry christmas and a happy new year 2019! I hope Mueller will finish 
his report in 2019 and I assume president Trump will either resign or 
be impeached like Nixon, since the House belongs now to the democrats 
(Did you know "Mueller" is the German version of "Miller" btw? As you 
know a miller is someone who creates the flour we need for life) Then 
Donald will spend the rest of his life in prison or seek asylum in 
Russia. This would be the end of "Trumpism". But who knows, it's a 
complex world. In hindsight we will learn more about "Trumpism" as 
well. At the moment it seems to be a mixture of the original Italian 
fascism and post-soviet authoritarianism, i.e. the rule of an 
authoritarian leader who demands absolute loyalty and trusts only his 
family. I believe we can only decode social systems if we really 
understand the various forms of *-isms like fascism, nazism or 
communism, and how they are related.


-Jochen



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] 2019 - The end of Trumpism

[Marcus Daniels]

Dear Pollyanna,

It will end and we’ll all learn an important lesson?

Whew, I was worried there for a minute!

Thanks,

Marcus

From: Friam  on behalf of Jochen Fromm 

Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Date: Wednesday, December 26, 2018 at 6:53 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: [FRIAM] 2019 - The end of Trumpism

Merry christmas and a happy new year 2019! I hope Mueller will finish his 
report in 2019 and I assume president Trump will either resign or be impeached 
like Nixon, since the House belongs now to the democrats (Did you know 
"Mueller" is the German version of "Miller" btw? As you know a miller is 
someone who creates the flour we need for life) Then Donald will spend the rest 
of his life in prison or seek asylum in Russia. This would be the end of 
"Trumpism". But who knows, it's a complex world. In hindsight we will learn 
more about "Trumpism" as well. At the moment it seems to be a mixture of the 
original Italian fascism and post-soviet authoritarianism, i.e. the rule of an 
authoritarian leader who demands absolute loyalty and trusts only his family. I 
believe we can only decode social systems if we really understand the various 
forms of *-isms like fascism, nazism or communism, and how they are related.

-Jochen



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] 2019 - The end of Trumpism

[Gary Schiltz]

I wish I could be as positive about the end of "Trumpism", but I too well
understand the people who support him, and their support is the
manifestation of a very ugly streak that runs through the American psyche.
I think Trump will survive Mueller and get re-elected in 2020. Happy new
year to you, too :-)

On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 9:53 AM Jochen Fromm  wrote:

> Merry christmas and a happy new year 2019! I hope Mueller will finish his
> report in 2019 and I assume president Trump will either resign or be
> impeached like Nixon, since the House belongs now to the democrats (Did you
> know "Mueller" is the German version of "Miller" btw? As you know a miller
> is someone who creates the flour we need for life) Then Donald will spend
> the rest of his life in prison or seek asylum in Russia. This would be the
> end of "Trumpism". But who knows, it's a complex world. In hindsight we
> will learn more about "Trumpism" as well. At the moment it seems to be a
> mixture of the original Italian fascism and post-soviet authoritarianism,
> i.e. the rule of an authoritarian leader who demands absolute loyalty and
> trusts only his family. I believe we can only decode social systems if we
> really understand the various forms of *-isms like fascism, nazism or
> communism, and how they are related.
>
> -Jochen
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

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[FRIAM] 2019 - The end of Trumpism

[Jochen Fromm]

Merry christmas and a happy new year 2019! I hope Mueller will finish his 
report in 2019 and I assume president Trump will either resign or be impeached 
like Nixon, since the House belongs now to the democrats (Did you know 
"Mueller" is the German version of "Miller" btw? As you know a miller is 
someone who creates the flour we need for life) Then Donald will spend the rest 
of his life in prison or seek asylum in Russia. This would be the end of 
"Trumpism". But who knows, it's a complex world. In hindsight we will learn 
more about "Trumpism" as well. At the moment it seems to be a mixture of the 
original Italian fascism and post-soviet authoritarianism, i.e. the rule of an 
authoritarian leader who demands absolute loyalty and trusts only his family. I 
believe we can only decode social systems if we really understand the various 
forms of *-isms like fascism, nazism or communism, and how they are related. 
-Jochen


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