Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential technological growth.

[David Eric Smith]

It is quite something.

How about the Navajo Nation in NM and AZ, and even the counties surrounding 
them.  They have it together.  I had heard from a few sources that in much of 
the S and SW, it was only on the reservations that you saw serious and 
consistent measures taken to provide for public health.  Lujan-Grisham has 
overall made a really good effort to do the right things, but even in NM 
there’s quite stunning variability county to county.

Equally impressive is Pima Co in AZ, and Yuma not bad.  Makes me wonder if that 
again is mostly Indian land.

It’s cute that Missoulans and the rest of Montanans, for opposite reasons, have 
a saying “You have to go 30 miles from Missoula in any direction to get to 
Montana”.  The map bears this out.

Jeez what a country.

Eric


> On Aug 10, 2021, at 7:54 AM, Marcus Daniels  wrote:
> 
> I mean as a matter of betting, spatial location is a valuable fact.  
> Bet against Mississippi instead of New Mexico. 
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/covid-19-vaccine-doses.html
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Monday, August 9, 2021 3:18 PM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential 
> technological growth.
> 
> Well, it's not just the South.
> 
> On 8/9/21 1:12 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> A few thoughts:
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> 1. Medicare and Medicaid could be used a levers to force vaccinations.   
>> This is just short of the possibility of not even letting unvaccinated 
>> people into hospitals.
>> 2. There must be some hospital chains that are bleeding money.   Perhaps now 
>> is the time to short those that are publically traded?   For that matter, 
>> any company in the south that must be indoors?
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Marcus Daniels
>> *Sent:* Monday, August 9, 2021 12:53 PM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential 
>> technological growth.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> I think that hospitals in the south will be flooded by December with more 
>> viral evolution by then.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> *From:* Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> 
>> *On Behalf Of *Roger Critchlow
>> *Sent:* Monday, August 9, 2021 11:53 AM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > >
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential 
>> technological growth.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/delta-variant-most-prevalent/2021/08/08/d1017f0e-f558-11eb-9068-bf463c8c74de_story.html
>>  
>> 
> 
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Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential technological growth.

[Frank Wimberly]

As I recall, the Navajo Nation suffered intensely from COVID-19 early on
and then imposed what would be considered Draconian measures elsewhere.  I
think non residents couldn't go there, for instance.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Mon, Aug 9, 2021, 7:35 PM David Eric Smith  wrote:

> It is quite something.
>
> How about the Navajo Nation in NM and AZ, and even the counties
> surrounding them.  They have it together.  I had heard from a few sources
> that in much of the S and SW, it was only on the reservations that you saw
> serious and consistent measures taken to provide for public health.
> Lujan-Grisham has overall made a really good effort to do the right things,
> but even in NM there’s quite stunning variability county to county.
>
> Equally impressive is Pima Co in AZ, and Yuma not bad.  Makes me wonder if
> that again is mostly Indian land.
>
> It’s cute that Missoulans and the rest of Montanans, for opposite reasons,
> have a saying “You have to go 30 miles from Missoula in any direction to
> get to Montana”.  The map bears this out.
>
> Jeez what a country.
>
> Eric
>
>
> > On Aug 10, 2021, at 7:54 AM, Marcus Daniels 
> wrote:
> >
> > I mean as a matter of betting, spatial location is a valuable fact.
> > Bet against Mississippi instead of New Mexico.
> >
> > https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/covid-19-vaccine-doses.html
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> > Sent: Monday, August 9, 2021 3:18 PM
> > To: friam@redfish.com
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential
> technological growth.
> >
> > Well, it's not just the South.
> >
> > On 8/9/21 1:12 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> >> A few thoughts:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 1. Medicare and Medicaid could be used a levers to force vaccinations.
>  This is just short of the possibility of not even letting unvaccinated
> people into hospitals.
> >> 2. There must be some hospital chains that are bleeding money.
>  Perhaps now is the time to short those that are publically traded?   For
> that matter, any company in the south that must be indoors?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Marcus Daniels
> >> *Sent:* Monday, August 9, 2021 12:53 PM
> >> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> >> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and
> exponential technological growth.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I think that hospitals in the south will be flooded by December with
> more viral evolution by then.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> *From:* Friam  friam-boun...@redfish.com>> *On Behalf Of *Roger Critchlow
> >> *Sent:* Monday, August 9, 2021 11:53 AM
> >> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com >
> >> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and
> exponential technological growth.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/delta-variant-most-prevalent/2021/08/08/d1017f0e-f558-11eb-9068-bf463c8c74de_story.html
> <
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/delta-variant-most-prevalent/2021/08/08/d1017f0e-f558-11eb-9068-bf463c8c74de_story.html
> >
> >
> > --
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> > -  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
> > un/subscribe
> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,rMDergvYGdj8eoihx_UdzgMaMeVNsYxU_bfRTgjSx1VLWcFxZZbRdehLnFBUHjLhGFwtewcJZpwjC3goW9snOPaD4bUpEVYrwGqIIUv1WOO9mtjv&typo=1
> > FRIAM-COMIC
> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,N0PL-aDg-w-t0hxvpeyG-jAbvwp7bTrH7VvNqbC12Fi80o7T25C_ObP8Vy_ry0cVZE1jCdnOicLDEoVc3AZEQB2xJ9W0pj1b4l06O67O68FI_6liEk43Klx1Uda1&typo=1
> > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Monday Note #629 - Elon Musk at full throttle (FF)

[Marcus Daniels]

Also  
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/08/with-a-single-photo-spacex-sent-a-not-so-subtle-message-to-faa-regulators/


From: Friam  On Behalf Of Tom Johnson
Sent: Sunday, August 8, 2021 1:52 PM
Subject: [FRIAM] Fwd: Monday Note #629 - Elon Musk at full throttle (FF)

Interesting read

-- Forwarded message -
From: Frederic Filloux 
mailto:frederic.fill...@mondaynote.com>>
Date: Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 2:00 PM
Subject: Monday Note #629 - Elon Musk at full throttle (FF)
To: mailto:t...@jtjohnson.com>>

[Monday
 
Note]
#629

August 8, 2021

What Makes Elon Musk Move So 
Fast
SpaceX is assembling its giant Starship rocket at an incredible pace. Here are 
some clues on how it does it.

By Frederic 
Filloux

[https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/600/1*G6a8pprhi6HE1RyFLday4A.png]
Credit: Tim Dodd, Everyday 
Astronaut

This episode was supposed to be about the funding of the New Space, but I still 
need to secure a couple of interviews. Plus, I wanted to share new findings on 
the “Elon Musk method.” The idea emerged from a two-hour video featuring the 
SpaceX founder touring its South Texas facility where the megarocket Starship 
is being assembled. The erudite YouTuber Tim 
Dodd
 had a chance to walk through the huge tents, buildings, and launchpad, guided 
by Musk.

There are reasons to be fascinated by the size and scope of Musk’s latest 
endeavor: the Starship rocket is 120 meters high, the equivalent of an almost 
40-story building, taller than the iconic Saturn V. Except this one will be 
fully reusable and quite versatile, as it will be able to put 100 tonnes in 
orbit. That’s four times Falcon 9’s capacity, and it will also ferry astronauts 
to the Moon and eventually to Mars. Last week marked a milestone, with, for the 
first time, the two parts of the rocket being stacked upon each other in a 
spectacular fashion:

[0*Gs-Y_xQf9GN6S7Aj]
Credit: RGV Aerial 
Photography

What is even more stunning is the pace at which SpaceX is putting together all 
the components: buildings, such as the 400-foot metallic structure that will 
capture the first stage of the rocket upon landing, are built and assembled in 
parallel to various iterations of the rocket itself. As it was running out of 
hangars, the company deployed huge tents to host the most critical phases of 
manufacturing. No wasted time here.

Tim Dodd’s video features an unpolished Elon Musk, sweating in the early 
evening heat of South Texas, sleep-deprived, afflicted with serious back pain, 
uncaring about his physical appearance but always intense and obsessive. As 
geeky as it is, the interview definitely has a documentary value.
[https://i.embed.ly/1/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2Ft705r8ICkRw%2Fhqdefault.jpg&key=a19fcc184b9711e1b4764040d3dc5c07]

But in addition to that value, there are other things that we can mention about 
how the Musk method applies to building a giant spaceship. Here are five 
arbitrarily chosen clues into SpaceX’s culture and method.

1 . Musk’s Engineering Philosophy

I already covered the Musk method for making cars in the Monday Note series 
about EVs (read How Tesla cracked the code of automobile 
innovation),
 but SpaceX founder made some adaptations for rocket manufacturing:

“Step one: Make the requirements less dumb. The requirements are definitely 
dumb; it does not matter who gave them to you. It’s particularly dangerous when 
they come from an intelligent person, as you may not question them enough. 
Everyone’s wrong. No matter who you are, everyone is wrong some of the time. 
All designs are wrong, it’s just a matter of how wrong.”

“Step two: try very hard to delete the part or process. If parts are not being 
added back into the design at least 10% of the time, [it means that] not enough 
parts are being deleted. The bias tends to be very strongly toward ‘let’s add 
this part or process step in case we need it. Additionally, each required part 
and process must come from a name, not a department, as a department cannot be 
asked why 

Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential technological growth.

[Marcus Daniels]

I mean as a matter of betting, spatial location is a valuable fact.  
Bet against Mississippi instead of New Mexico. 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/covid-19-vaccine-doses.html

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Monday, August 9, 2021 3:18 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential 
technological growth.

Well, it's not just the South.

On 8/9/21 1:12 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> A few thoughts:
> 
>  
> 
>  1. Medicare and Medicaid could be used a levers to force vaccinations.   
> This is just short of the possibility of not even letting unvaccinated people 
> into hospitals.
>  2. There must be some hospital chains that are bleeding money.   Perhaps now 
> is the time to short those that are publically traded?   For that matter, any 
> company in the south that must be indoors?
> 
>  
> 
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Marcus Daniels
> *Sent:* Monday, August 9, 2021 12:53 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential 
> technological growth.
> 
>  
> 
> I think that hospitals in the south will be flooded by December with more 
> viral evolution by then.
> 
>  
> 
> *From:* Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> 
> *On Behalf Of *Roger Critchlow
> *Sent:* Monday, August 9, 2021 11:53 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group  >
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential 
> technological growth.
> 
>  
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/delta-variant-most-prevalent/2021/08/08/d1017f0e-f558-11eb-9068-bf463c8c74de_story.html
>  
> 

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Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential technological growth.

[Marcus Daniels]

A few thoughts:


  1.  Medicare and Medicaid could be used a levers to force vaccinations.   
This is just short of the possibility of not even letting unvaccinated people 
into hospitals.
  2.  There must be some hospital chains that are bleeding money.   Perhaps now 
is the time to short those that are publically traded?   For that matter, any 
company in the south that must be indoors?

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Monday, August 9, 2021 12:53 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential 
technological growth.

I think that hospitals in the south will be flooded by December with more viral 
evolution by then.

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of Roger Critchlow
Sent: Monday, August 9, 2021 11:53 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential 
technological growth.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/delta-variant-most-prevalent/2021/08/08/d1017f0e-f558-11eb-9068-bf463c8c74de_story.html

T

On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 1:52 PM Marcus Daniels 
mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
Nice.  But I think my favorite on that list has got to be Rumination Disorder.  
 Such a surprise at a dinner party.  Yes, I definitely know some Orthorexians!

-Original Message-
From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Monday, August 9, 2021 9:07 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential 
technological growth.

What I find magical about both cats and people is how plastic we are. The point 
of a regimen is to clamp down against that plasticity ... turn us into robots. 
I'm no Dionysian. But the idea of clamping out all the variation that allows us 
to go off a local optimum to find (collectively) a higher peak is a bit 
disgusting to me, no pun intended. That we have supplements that help trigger 
some of the pathways triggered by fasting is a great example, but susceptible 
to pseudoscience.

Many doctors, physicians' assistants, anesthesiologists, etc. ... especially 
cardiologists, seem so rigorous about their lifestyles they seem unhealthy to 
me. One of Renee's friends and co-workers back in Oregon fit the description 
given for *orthorexia* to a T 
.

Brings to mind the quote attributed to Wilde: "Everything in moderation, 
including moderation."

On 8/9/21 8:30 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> A vaccine installs information in the immune system about antigen.   Exercise 
> (or fasting) distills into various kinds of cell and signaling changes.   
> (Like in the current example with insulin resistance.)Systematic control 
> of the body (and brain) through chemicals or biologics isn't possible yet, 
> but many causal relations are understood or at least have been tested for 
> safety.What I find strange is that so many people (and not just 
> anti-vaxxers) prefer total ignorance to partial ignorance.   I would rather 
> turn a knob to select my weight or VO2 max than have to run 10 miles a day.  
> Not just because it is easier or uses less time, but it because it is way 
> cooler.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
> Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Monday, August 9, 2021 7:56 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential 
> technological growth.
>
> There's quite a bit wrong with this stance. What is "health"? What do we mean 
> by "control" or "prevention" (cf endless sophistry about free will)? There 
> are clear risks to people like Dr. Sinclair (cf Linus Pauling, Didier Raoult, 
> etc.)?
>
> But the problematic part of this thread that I think is most important is 
> analogous to the Disease Model of Alcoholism and, more generally, the shaming 
> of people with behavior or cognitive problems. Now, I'm not an advocate for 
> the disease model of alcoholism. But in moving that way, we've progressed 
> from blaming alcoholism on a person's moral failings to understanding the 
> physiological reward system that drives much of our behavior.
>
> The claim that obesity and/or a large share of type 2 diabetes is 
> preventable/controllable is clearly a problematic claim ... a bit like my dad 
> breaking my nose and telling me to "suck it up". If you're fat, you must 
> simply be a loser. Pull yourself up and do the work. Now, thank me for giving 
> you my tough love wisdom. Pfft.
>
> One further issue lies in the privileges most of us (on this list) enjoy. 
> Most of the people I know who eat highly processed food are low income. Not 
> only is their diet exceedingly difficult to manage because it costs MONEY to 
> eat well, but many of them have more than 1 j

Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential technological growth.

[Marcus Daniels]

I think that hospitals in the south will be flooded by December with more viral 
evolution by then.

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow
Sent: Monday, August 9, 2021 11:53 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential 
technological growth.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/delta-variant-most-prevalent/2021/08/08/d1017f0e-f558-11eb-9068-bf463c8c74de_story.html

T

On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 1:52 PM Marcus Daniels 
mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
Nice.  But I think my favorite on that list has got to be Rumination Disorder.  
 Such a surprise at a dinner party.  Yes, I definitely know some Orthorexians!

-Original Message-
From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Monday, August 9, 2021 9:07 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential 
technological growth.

What I find magical about both cats and people is how plastic we are. The point 
of a regimen is to clamp down against that plasticity ... turn us into robots. 
I'm no Dionysian. But the idea of clamping out all the variation that allows us 
to go off a local optimum to find (collectively) a higher peak is a bit 
disgusting to me, no pun intended. That we have supplements that help trigger 
some of the pathways triggered by fasting is a great example, but susceptible 
to pseudoscience.

Many doctors, physicians' assistants, anesthesiologists, etc. ... especially 
cardiologists, seem so rigorous about their lifestyles they seem unhealthy to 
me. One of Renee's friends and co-workers back in Oregon fit the description 
given for *orthorexia* to a T 
.

Brings to mind the quote attributed to Wilde: "Everything in moderation, 
including moderation."

On 8/9/21 8:30 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> A vaccine installs information in the immune system about antigen.   Exercise 
> (or fasting) distills into various kinds of cell and signaling changes.   
> (Like in the current example with insulin resistance.)Systematic control 
> of the body (and brain) through chemicals or biologics isn't possible yet, 
> but many causal relations are understood or at least have been tested for 
> safety.What I find strange is that so many people (and not just 
> anti-vaxxers) prefer total ignorance to partial ignorance.   I would rather 
> turn a knob to select my weight or VO2 max than have to run 10 miles a day.  
> Not just because it is easier or uses less time, but it because it is way 
> cooler.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
> Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Monday, August 9, 2021 7:56 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential 
> technological growth.
>
> There's quite a bit wrong with this stance. What is "health"? What do we mean 
> by "control" or "prevention" (cf endless sophistry about free will)? There 
> are clear risks to people like Dr. Sinclair (cf Linus Pauling, Didier Raoult, 
> etc.)?
>
> But the problematic part of this thread that I think is most important is 
> analogous to the Disease Model of Alcoholism and, more generally, the shaming 
> of people with behavior or cognitive problems. Now, I'm not an advocate for 
> the disease model of alcoholism. But in moving that way, we've progressed 
> from blaming alcoholism on a person's moral failings to understanding the 
> physiological reward system that drives much of our behavior.
>
> The claim that obesity and/or a large share of type 2 diabetes is 
> preventable/controllable is clearly a problematic claim ... a bit like my dad 
> breaking my nose and telling me to "suck it up". If you're fat, you must 
> simply be a loser. Pull yourself up and do the work. Now, thank me for giving 
> you my tough love wisdom. Pfft.
>
> One further issue lies in the privileges most of us (on this list) enjoy. 
> Most of the people I know who eat highly processed food are low income. Not 
> only is their diet exceedingly difficult to manage because it costs MONEY to 
> eat well, but many of them have more than 1 job and often work off hours 
> (like night shifts or weekends). Such schedules make it difficult to stick to 
> any regimen. And it's not merely diet that suffers but exercise too. I'm just 
> barely disciplined enough to exercise 4-5 days per week for about 1.5 hours 
> each session. But I exercise in the morning. If I sleep past 5am, or have a 
> Zoom meeting before 8am, my exercise session is screwed up. If I speed 
> through it, I end up hurting my back, putting me out of commission for at 
> least several days. Etc.
>
> So, if you are one of the LUCKY ONES, lucky enough to have haphazardly fallen 
> into your life of privilege, good for you. But don't accuse others of moral 

Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential technological growth.

[Roger Critchlow]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/delta-variant-most-prevalent/2021/08/08/d1017f0e-f558-11eb-9068-bf463c8c74de_story.html

T

On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 1:52 PM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> Nice.  But I think my favorite on that list has got to be Rumination
> Disorder.   Such a surprise at a dinner party.  Yes, I definitely know some
> Orthorexians!
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Monday, August 9, 2021 9:07 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential
> technological growth.
>
> What I find magical about both cats and people is how plastic we are. The
> point of a regimen is to clamp down against that plasticity ... turn us
> into robots. I'm no Dionysian. But the idea of clamping out all the
> variation that allows us to go off a local optimum to find (collectively) a
> higher peak is a bit disgusting to me, no pun intended. That we have
> supplements that help trigger some of the pathways triggered by fasting is
> a great example, but susceptible to pseudoscience.
>
> Many doctors, physicians' assistants, anesthesiologists, etc. ...
> especially cardiologists, seem so rigorous about their lifestyles they seem
> unhealthy to me. One of Renee's friends and co-workers back in Oregon fit
> the description given for *orthorexia* to a T <
> https://www.nationaleatingdisorders.org/learn/by-eating-disorder/other/orthorexia
> >.
>
> Brings to mind the quote attributed to Wilde: "Everything in moderation,
> including moderation."
>
> On 8/9/21 8:30 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> > A vaccine installs information in the immune system about antigen.
>  Exercise (or fasting) distills into various kinds of cell and signaling
> changes.   (Like in the current example with insulin resistance.)
> Systematic control of the body (and brain) through chemicals or biologics
> isn't possible yet, but many causal relations are understood or at least
> have been tested for safety.What I find strange is that so many people
> (and not just anti-vaxxers) prefer total ignorance to partial ignorance.
>  I would rather turn a knob to select my weight or VO2 max than have to run
> 10 miles a day.  Not just because it is easier or uses less time, but it
> because it is way cooler.
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> > Sent: Monday, August 9, 2021 7:56 AM
> > To: friam@redfish.com
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential
> technological growth.
> >
> > There's quite a bit wrong with this stance. What is "health"? What do we
> mean by "control" or "prevention" (cf endless sophistry about free will)?
> There are clear risks to people like Dr. Sinclair (cf Linus Pauling, Didier
> Raoult, etc.)?
> >
> > But the problematic part of this thread that I think is most important
> is analogous to the Disease Model of Alcoholism and, more generally, the
> shaming of people with behavior or cognitive problems. Now, I'm not an
> advocate for the disease model of alcoholism. But in moving that way, we've
> progressed from blaming alcoholism on a person's moral failings to
> understanding the physiological reward system that drives much of our
> behavior.
> >
> > The claim that obesity and/or a large share of type 2 diabetes is
> preventable/controllable is clearly a problematic claim ... a bit like my
> dad breaking my nose and telling me to "suck it up". If you're fat, you
> must simply be a loser. Pull yourself up and do the work. Now, thank me for
> giving you my tough love wisdom. Pfft.
> >
> > One further issue lies in the privileges most of us (on this list)
> enjoy. Most of the people I know who eat highly processed food are low
> income. Not only is their diet exceedingly difficult to manage because it
> costs MONEY to eat well, but many of them have more than 1 job and often
> work off hours (like night shifts or weekends). Such schedules make it
> difficult to stick to any regimen. And it's not merely diet that suffers
> but exercise too. I'm just barely disciplined enough to exercise 4-5 days
> per week for about 1.5 hours each session. But I exercise in the morning.
> If I sleep past 5am, or have a Zoom meeting before 8am, my exercise session
> is screwed up. If I speed through it, I end up hurting my back, putting me
> out of commission for at least several days. Etc.
> >
> > So, if you are one of the LUCKY ONES, lucky enough to have haphazardly
> fallen into your life of privilege, good for you. But don't accuse others
> of moral failings just because they don't behave the way you behave. That
> road, however it's paved, leads you straight to hell.
> >
> >
> > On 8/8/21 11:31 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
> >> Prof David West, just confirming, I'm not speaking in absolutes.
> >>
> >> My point is simply that for most of us you can significantly reduce
> future health problems by following a healthy lifestyle. This is not
> limited to but includes severe health proble

Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential technological growth.

[Marcus Daniels]

Nice.  But I think my favorite on that list has got to be Rumination Disorder.  
 Such a surprise at a dinner party.  Yes, I definitely know some Orthorexians!

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Monday, August 9, 2021 9:07 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential 
technological growth.

What I find magical about both cats and people is how plastic we are. The point 
of a regimen is to clamp down against that plasticity ... turn us into robots. 
I'm no Dionysian. But the idea of clamping out all the variation that allows us 
to go off a local optimum to find (collectively) a higher peak is a bit 
disgusting to me, no pun intended. That we have supplements that help trigger 
some of the pathways triggered by fasting is a great example, but susceptible 
to pseudoscience.

Many doctors, physicians' assistants, anesthesiologists, etc. ... especially 
cardiologists, seem so rigorous about their lifestyles they seem unhealthy to 
me. One of Renee's friends and co-workers back in Oregon fit the description 
given for *orthorexia* to a T 
.

Brings to mind the quote attributed to Wilde: "Everything in moderation, 
including moderation."

On 8/9/21 8:30 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> A vaccine installs information in the immune system about antigen.   Exercise 
> (or fasting) distills into various kinds of cell and signaling changes.   
> (Like in the current example with insulin resistance.)Systematic control 
> of the body (and brain) through chemicals or biologics isn't possible yet, 
> but many causal relations are understood or at least have been tested for 
> safety.What I find strange is that so many people (and not just 
> anti-vaxxers) prefer total ignorance to partial ignorance.   I would rather 
> turn a knob to select my weight or VO2 max than have to run 10 miles a day.  
> Not just because it is easier or uses less time, but it because it is way 
> cooler.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Monday, August 9, 2021 7:56 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential 
> technological growth.
> 
> There's quite a bit wrong with this stance. What is "health"? What do we mean 
> by "control" or "prevention" (cf endless sophistry about free will)? There 
> are clear risks to people like Dr. Sinclair (cf Linus Pauling, Didier Raoult, 
> etc.)?
> 
> But the problematic part of this thread that I think is most important is 
> analogous to the Disease Model of Alcoholism and, more generally, the shaming 
> of people with behavior or cognitive problems. Now, I'm not an advocate for 
> the disease model of alcoholism. But in moving that way, we've progressed 
> from blaming alcoholism on a person's moral failings to understanding the 
> physiological reward system that drives much of our behavior. 
> 
> The claim that obesity and/or a large share of type 2 diabetes is 
> preventable/controllable is clearly a problematic claim ... a bit like my dad 
> breaking my nose and telling me to "suck it up". If you're fat, you must 
> simply be a loser. Pull yourself up and do the work. Now, thank me for giving 
> you my tough love wisdom. Pfft.
> 
> One further issue lies in the privileges most of us (on this list) enjoy. 
> Most of the people I know who eat highly processed food are low income. Not 
> only is their diet exceedingly difficult to manage because it costs MONEY to 
> eat well, but many of them have more than 1 job and often work off hours 
> (like night shifts or weekends). Such schedules make it difficult to stick to 
> any regimen. And it's not merely diet that suffers but exercise too. I'm just 
> barely disciplined enough to exercise 4-5 days per week for about 1.5 hours 
> each session. But I exercise in the morning. If I sleep past 5am, or have a 
> Zoom meeting before 8am, my exercise session is screwed up. If I speed 
> through it, I end up hurting my back, putting me out of commission for at 
> least several days. Etc.
> 
> So, if you are one of the LUCKY ONES, lucky enough to have haphazardly fallen 
> into your life of privilege, good for you. But don't accuse others of moral 
> failings just because they don't behave the way you behave. That road, 
> however it's paved, leads you straight to hell.
> 
> 
> On 8/8/21 11:31 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
>> Prof David West, just confirming, I'm not speaking in absolutes.
>>
>> My point is simply that for most of us you can significantly reduce future 
>> health problems by following a healthy lifestyle. This is not limited to but 
>> includes severe health problems if you are infected by the covid virus.
>>
>> P
>>
>> On Sun, 8 Aug 2021 at 19:15, Prof David West > > wrote:
>>
>> __
>> Not Pieter, but ...
>>
>> Some small percentage of _*Type 

Re: [FRIAM] Moral collapse and state failure

[Steve Smith]

Pieter -

> Your "The Wrong (formerly Right) Wing in the US" 
> reminds me of the quote by Larry Elder: 
> "Conservatives consider liberals well-intentioned, but misguided.
> Liberals consider conservatives not only wrong, but really, really bad
> people."
This smells strongly of a Strawman characterization and I hear this from
Right Wingers all the time.  It sounds like a bit of projection
overlayed on "best defense is a good offense".

My own erstwhile "Conservatism" was it's own style of misguided
good-intentions.   For the most part, those I left behind there appear
to be acting out of variations on "greed and fear" which doesn't make
them really really bad people, but it doesn't bode well for them, nor
those they effect.  This includes most of my and Mary's extended family
and many friends, neighbors, and former colleagues (LANL).  

I hope, for your sake, that So. Africa's "Right Wing" is not as "Wrong
Headed" as our own.

- Steve


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Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
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Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential technological growth.

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

What I find magical about both cats and people is how plastic we are. The point 
of a regimen is to clamp down against that plasticity ... turn us into robots. 
I'm no Dionysian. But the idea of clamping out all the variation that allows us 
to go off a local optimum to find (collectively) a higher peak is a bit 
disgusting to me, no pun intended. That we have supplements that help trigger 
some of the pathways triggered by fasting is a great example, but susceptible 
to pseudoscience.

Many doctors, physicians' assistants, anesthesiologists, etc. ... especially 
cardiologists, seem so rigorous about their lifestyles they seem unhealthy to 
me. One of Renee's friends and co-workers back in Oregon fit the description 
given for *orthorexia* to a T 
.

Brings to mind the quote attributed to Wilde: "Everything in moderation, 
including moderation."

On 8/9/21 8:30 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> A vaccine installs information in the immune system about antigen.   Exercise 
> (or fasting) distills into various kinds of cell and signaling changes.   
> (Like in the current example with insulin resistance.)Systematic control 
> of the body (and brain) through chemicals or biologics isn't possible yet, 
> but many causal relations are understood or at least have been tested for 
> safety.What I find strange is that so many people (and not just 
> anti-vaxxers) prefer total ignorance to partial ignorance.   I would rather 
> turn a knob to select my weight or VO2 max than have to run 10 miles a day.  
> Not just because it is easier or uses less time, but it because it is way 
> cooler.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Monday, August 9, 2021 7:56 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential 
> technological growth.
> 
> There's quite a bit wrong with this stance. What is "health"? What do we mean 
> by "control" or "prevention" (cf endless sophistry about free will)? There 
> are clear risks to people like Dr. Sinclair (cf Linus Pauling, Didier Raoult, 
> etc.)?
> 
> But the problematic part of this thread that I think is most important is 
> analogous to the Disease Model of Alcoholism and, more generally, the shaming 
> of people with behavior or cognitive problems. Now, I'm not an advocate for 
> the disease model of alcoholism. But in moving that way, we've progressed 
> from blaming alcoholism on a person's moral failings to understanding the 
> physiological reward system that drives much of our behavior. 
> 
> The claim that obesity and/or a large share of type 2 diabetes is 
> preventable/controllable is clearly a problematic claim ... a bit like my dad 
> breaking my nose and telling me to "suck it up". If you're fat, you must 
> simply be a loser. Pull yourself up and do the work. Now, thank me for giving 
> you my tough love wisdom. Pfft.
> 
> One further issue lies in the privileges most of us (on this list) enjoy. 
> Most of the people I know who eat highly processed food are low income. Not 
> only is their diet exceedingly difficult to manage because it costs MONEY to 
> eat well, but many of them have more than 1 job and often work off hours 
> (like night shifts or weekends). Such schedules make it difficult to stick to 
> any regimen. And it's not merely diet that suffers but exercise too. I'm just 
> barely disciplined enough to exercise 4-5 days per week for about 1.5 hours 
> each session. But I exercise in the morning. If I sleep past 5am, or have a 
> Zoom meeting before 8am, my exercise session is screwed up. If I speed 
> through it, I end up hurting my back, putting me out of commission for at 
> least several days. Etc.
> 
> So, if you are one of the LUCKY ONES, lucky enough to have haphazardly fallen 
> into your life of privilege, good for you. But don't accuse others of moral 
> failings just because they don't behave the way you behave. That road, 
> however it's paved, leads you straight to hell.
> 
> 
> On 8/8/21 11:31 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
>> Prof David West, just confirming, I'm not speaking in absolutes.
>>
>> My point is simply that for most of us you can significantly reduce future 
>> health problems by following a healthy lifestyle. This is not limited to but 
>> includes severe health problems if you are infected by the covid virus.
>>
>> P
>>
>> On Sun, 8 Aug 2021 at 19:15, Prof David West > > wrote:
>>
>> __
>> Not Pieter, but ...
>>
>> Some small percentage of _*Type II *_diabetes is not 
>> preventable/controllable with diet and exercise.
>>
>> Similarly, of the 42% of the US population that is obese (9.2% morbidly 
>> obese), some small subset is not preventable/controllable with diet 
>> exercise. (My guess is less that 20-25%).
>>
>> I am pretty sure Pieter was not speaking in absolutes.
>>
>> davew
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Aug

Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential technological growth.

[Marcus Daniels]

A vaccine installs information in the immune system about antigen.   Exercise 
(or fasting) distills into various kinds of cell and signaling changes.   (Like 
in the current example with insulin resistance.)Systematic control of the 
body (and brain) through chemicals or biologics isn't possible yet, but many 
causal relations are understood or at least have been tested for safety.
What I find strange is that so many people (and not just anti-vaxxers) prefer 
total ignorance to partial ignorance.   I would rather turn a knob to select my 
weight or VO2 max than have to run 10 miles a day.  Not just because it is 
easier or uses less time, but it because it is way cooler.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Monday, August 9, 2021 7:56 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential 
technological growth.

There's quite a bit wrong with this stance. What is "health"? What do we mean 
by "control" or "prevention" (cf endless sophistry about free will)? There are 
clear risks to people like Dr. Sinclair (cf Linus Pauling, Didier Raoult, etc.)?

But the problematic part of this thread that I think is most important is 
analogous to the Disease Model of Alcoholism and, more generally, the shaming 
of people with behavior or cognitive problems. Now, I'm not an advocate for the 
disease model of alcoholism. But in moving that way, we've progressed from 
blaming alcoholism on a person's moral failings to understanding the 
physiological reward system that drives much of our behavior. 

The claim that obesity and/or a large share of type 2 diabetes is 
preventable/controllable is clearly a problematic claim ... a bit like my dad 
breaking my nose and telling me to "suck it up". If you're fat, you must simply 
be a loser. Pull yourself up and do the work. Now, thank me for giving you my 
tough love wisdom. Pfft.

One further issue lies in the privileges most of us (on this list) enjoy. Most 
of the people I know who eat highly processed food are low income. Not only is 
their diet exceedingly difficult to manage because it costs MONEY to eat well, 
but many of them have more than 1 job and often work off hours (like night 
shifts or weekends). Such schedules make it difficult to stick to any regimen. 
And it's not merely diet that suffers but exercise too. I'm just barely 
disciplined enough to exercise 4-5 days per week for about 1.5 hours each 
session. But I exercise in the morning. If I sleep past 5am, or have a Zoom 
meeting before 8am, my exercise session is screwed up. If I speed through it, I 
end up hurting my back, putting me out of commission for at least several days. 
Etc.

So, if you are one of the LUCKY ONES, lucky enough to have haphazardly fallen 
into your life of privilege, good for you. But don't accuse others of moral 
failings just because they don't behave the way you behave. That road, however 
it's paved, leads you straight to hell.


On 8/8/21 11:31 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
> Prof David West, just confirming, I'm not speaking in absolutes.
> 
> My point is simply that for most of us you can significantly reduce future 
> health problems by following a healthy lifestyle. This is not limited to but 
> includes severe health problems if you are infected by the covid virus.
> 
> P
> 
> On Sun, 8 Aug 2021 at 19:15, Prof David West  > wrote:
> 
> __
> Not Pieter, but ...
> 
> Some small percentage of _*Type II *_diabetes is not 
> preventable/controllable with diet and exercise.
> 
> Similarly, of the 42% of the US population that is obese (9.2% morbidly 
> obese), some small subset is not preventable/controllable with diet exercise. 
> (My guess is less that 20-25%).
> 
> I am pretty sure Pieter was not speaking in absolutes.
> 
> davew
> 
> 
> On Sun, Aug 8, 2021, at 8:46 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com 
>  wrote:
>>
>> Pieter,
>>
>>  
>>
>> I am interested in your assertion that metabolic disorders like 
>> diabetes and obesity are preventable.
>>
>>  
>>
>> N
>>
>>  
>>
>> Nick Thompson
>>
>> thompnicks...@gmail.com 
>>
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ 
>> 
>>
>>  
>>
>> *From:* Friam > > *On Behalf Of *Pieter Steenekamp
>> *Sent:* Sunday, August 8, 2021 5:16 AM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
>> mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and 
>> exponential technological growth.
>>
>>  
>>
>> The CDC reports that among 4,899,447 hospitalized adults in 
>> PHD-SR, 540,667 (11.0%) were patients with COVID-19, of whom 94.9% had at 
>> least 1 underlying medical condition. 
>> https://www.cdc.gov/pcd/issues/2021/21_0123.htm 
>> 

Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential technological growth.

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

There's quite a bit wrong with this stance. What is "health"? What do we mean 
by "control" or "prevention" (cf endless sophistry about free will)? There are 
clear risks to people like Dr. Sinclair (cf Linus Pauling, Didier Raoult, etc.)?

But the problematic part of this thread that I think is most important is 
analogous to the Disease Model of Alcoholism and, more generally, the shaming 
of people with behavior or cognitive problems. Now, I'm not an advocate for the 
disease model of alcoholism. But in moving that way, we've progressed from 
blaming alcoholism on a person's moral failings to understanding the 
physiological reward system that drives much of our behavior. 

The claim that obesity and/or a large share of type 2 diabetes is 
preventable/controllable is clearly a problematic claim ... a bit like my dad 
breaking my nose and telling me to "suck it up". If you're fat, you must simply 
be a loser. Pull yourself up and do the work. Now, thank me for giving you my 
tough love wisdom. Pfft.

One further issue lies in the privileges most of us (on this list) enjoy. Most 
of the people I know who eat highly processed food are low income. Not only is 
their diet exceedingly difficult to manage because it costs MONEY to eat well, 
but many of them have more than 1 job and often work off hours (like night 
shifts or weekends). Such schedules make it difficult to stick to any regimen. 
And it's not merely diet that suffers but exercise too. I'm just barely 
disciplined enough to exercise 4-5 days per week for about 1.5 hours each 
session. But I exercise in the morning. If I sleep past 5am, or have a Zoom 
meeting before 8am, my exercise session is screwed up. If I speed through it, I 
end up hurting my back, putting me out of commission for at least several days. 
Etc.

So, if you are one of the LUCKY ONES, lucky enough to have haphazardly fallen 
into your life of privilege, good for you. But don't accuse others of moral 
failings just because they don't behave the way you behave. That road, however 
it's paved, leads you straight to hell.


On 8/8/21 11:31 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
> Prof David West, just confirming, I'm not speaking in absolutes.
> 
> My point is simply that for most of us you can significantly reduce future 
> health problems by following a healthy lifestyle. This is not limited to but 
> includes severe health problems if you are infected by the covid virus.
> 
> P
> 
> On Sun, 8 Aug 2021 at 19:15, Prof David West  > wrote:
> 
> __
> Not Pieter, but ...
> 
> Some small percentage of _*Type II *_diabetes is not 
> preventable/controllable with diet and exercise.
> 
> Similarly, of the 42% of the US population that is obese (9.2% morbidly 
> obese), some small subset is not preventable/controllable with diet exercise. 
> (My guess is less that 20-25%).
> 
> I am pretty sure Pieter was not speaking in absolutes.
> 
> davew
> 
> 
> On Sun, Aug 8, 2021, at 8:46 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com 
>  wrote:
>>
>> Pieter,
>>
>>  
>>
>> I am interested in your assertion that metabolic disorders like diabetes 
>> and obesity are preventable. 
>>
>>  
>>
>> N
>>
>>  
>>
>> Nick Thompson
>>
>> thompnicks...@gmail.com 
>>
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ 
>> 
>>
>>  
>>
>> *From:* Friam > > *On Behalf Of *Pieter Steenekamp
>> *Sent:* Sunday, August 8, 2021 5:16 AM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
>> mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and 
>> exponential technological growth.
>>
>>  
>>
>> The CDC reports that among 4,899,447 hospitalized adults in PHD-SR, 
>> 540,667 (11.0%) were patients with COVID-19, of whom 94.9% had at least 1 
>> underlying medical condition. 
>> https://www.cdc.gov/pcd/issues/2021/21_0123.htm 
>> . 
>>
>>
>> My reading of this is that it is mainly preventable conditions and my 
>> simple conclusion is that if you live healthy you are well protected against 
>> covid.
>>  
>> My wife and I got a wake-up call with loved ones that died of covid. 
>> They were all obese. Our focus is now to live healthy. It not only gives 
>> additional protection against covid, but against many other causes of 
>> illness and poor quality of life too.
>>

-- 
☤>$ uǝlƃ

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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
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Re: [FRIAM] Moral collapse and state failure

[Gary Schiltz]

I don’t know who Larry Elder is, but I believe he is incorrect. The right
wing of today in the USA believes, or at least says, that liberals are both
misguided and really, really bad people. God told them so.

On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 1:40 AM Pieter Steenekamp 
wrote:

> Steve,
>
> Your "The Wrong (formerly Right) Wing in the US"
> reminds me of the quote by Larry Elder:
> "Conservatives consider liberals well-intentioned, but misguided. Liberals
> consider conservatives not only wrong, but really, really bad people."
>
>
> P
>
> On Mon, 9 Aug 2021 at 06:06, Steve Smith  wrote:
>
>> Jochen -
>>
>> Thanks for the original article reference.   It lead me to seek out and
>> find another interesting /relevant introductory/survey article:
>>
>> Stability of Democracies:  A Complex Systems Perspective
>> 
>>
>> In regards to your original question, my own biased intuition is that it
>> is a vicious (rather than virtuous) cycle.   Our various corrupt leaders
>> with notable presidents such as Harding (Teapot Dome), Nixon (Watergate++)
>> and DJT-45 (Tax, Emoluments, Election, Sexual Misconduct, etc... many left
>> to be exposed I suspect) definitely undermine the confidence in and
>> commitment to our imperfect Democracy, driving it further away from any
>> ideal it might aspire to.
>>
>> I personally wasted half of my voting life in reaction to Nixon and the
>> next several cycles following.   Watching the shenanigans of 2000 and then
>> 2016 and worse 2020, I expect there will be entire new generations as
>> disaffected as I was.  It is hard to maintain a legitimate participatory
>> Democracy with that level of disaffection and confusion.
>>
>> The Wrong (formerly Right) Wing in the US seems nearly dead-set on
>> leveraging this to the extreme.   In hindsight, the rhetoric of the Wrong
>> Wing has been playing at this for my entire adult life, but it is acutely
>> worse this past 1-5 years.   From Trump's embrace of nearly every right
>> wing dictator he could find to Tucker Carlson in Hungary this week, it
>> seems to be happening entirely in plain sight!
>>
>> - Steve
>>
>>
>> On 8/8/21 2:09 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
>>
>> Good example. Like the USA South Africa was a former British colony. And
>> both countries had to struggle with racism in the past. But the development
>> of democracy was different. The rise and fall of democracy is an
>> interesting topic
>>
>> https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691177465/the-decline-and-rise-of-democracy
>>
>> I wonder what the essential factor is: do immoral presidents cause the
>> collapse of democracy in a country by undermining democratic institutions
>> or is it the other way round: the economy (and therefore the country) is
>> already broken and institutions are weak, which enables immoral
>> authoritarian rulers to grab power? Or a combination of both?
>>
>> -J.
>>
>>
>>  Original message 
>> From: Pieter Steenekamp 
>> 
>> Date: 8/8/21 20:26 (GMT+01:00)
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>>  
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Moral collapse and state failure
>>
>> Well, I'm from South Africa, and we have been close to moral collapse and
>> IMO that could have led to our state failing.
>>
>> If you ask ten South Africans you'll get maybe twenty opinions, below is
>> just my very brief view of what has been and what is happening in South
>> Africa.
>>
>> South Africa became democratic in 1994 with Nelson Mandela the president.
>> With him at the helm we had the moral high ground. His immediate successor
>> Thabo Mbeki also did well. But between 2009 and 2017 Jacob Zuma was our
>> president. He looted very seriously from the state and unfortunately under
>> him many people in all state organisations started to also loot. The
>> corruption became very deep. He is in jail now.
>>
>> We now have Cyril Ramaphosa as president and it's anybody's guess, but at
>> least I'm very confident that Cyril is leading us again towards the moral
>> high ground and away from state failure.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 8 Aug 2021 at 19:18, Jochen Fromm  wrote:
>>
>>> This paper from last year argues that moral collapse and state failure
>>> are linked. Would you agree?
>>> https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpos.2020.568704/full
>>>
>>> -J.
>>>
>>>
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