Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

[⛧ glen]

Nah. An emotion is exactly analogous to your thumb, registerable both as a 
separate object and a compositional part of you, composed in both space and 
time, with all that part-whole relations imply.

On August 23, 2021 8:30:52 PM PDT, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>In general the grammar of the two words is different.  If you say I had 
>something, I am sent looking for a property, possession or attribute.  If you 
>say I did something, I am sent looking for an action I performed.   So, there 
>is a vast inclination to make emotion words as a reference to something we 
>carry inside, rather than a pattern in what we do.  This seems to me like 
>misdirection, a category error in Ryle’s terms.   
>
> 
>
>Does that help?

-- 
glen ⛧

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Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

[thompnickson2]

Now wait a minute!  This is the sort of question I am supposed to ask of you?  
A question to which the answer is so obvious to the recipient that he is in 
danger of not being able to locate it.   

 

Ok, so, their meanings obviously overlap.   If you tell me you “had” a steak 
last night, I wont assume that it’s available  for us to eat tonight: “had” is 
serving as a verb of action.  The situation is further confused  by the fact 
that both words are used as helper words, i.e, words that indicate the tense of 
another verb.  To say that I “have” gone and that I “done” gone mean the same 
thing in different dialects 

 

In general the grammar of the two words is different.  If you say I had 
something, I am sent looking for a property, possession or attribute.  If you 
say I did something, I am sent looking for an action I performed.   So, there 
is a vast inclination to make emotion words as a reference to something we 
carry inside, rather than a pattern in what we do.  This seems to me like 
misdirection, a category error in Ryle’s terms.   

 

Does that help?

 

Mumble, mumble, as steve would say. 

 

Nick 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 4:23 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

 

Nick, what’s the difference between having and doing?

 

I once heard Ray Jackendoff give quite a nice talk on word categories.  Of all 
of it, the one part I remember the most about is what he said about 
prepositions.  Even after you are getting right most of the rest of word usage 
in a new language (or handling it well with a dumb, rule-based translator), you 
are still at sea in the prepositions.  Their scopes are not completely 
arbitrary, but arbitrary in such large part that speakers essentially learn 
them nearly as a list of ad hoc applications.

 

But when we are in a specialist domain, such as reference to the unpacking of 
the convention-term “emotion”, which we all know is a different specialist 
domain from car ownership or the consumption of lunch, we know that verbs are 
not on any a priori firmer ground than prepositions.  Or it seems to me, we 
should expect that to be so.

 

I am struck by how widespread it is in languages to use the same particle or 
other construction for possession and attribution.  Both in concretes and in 
the abstractions that seemingly derive from them.  SteveG will like this one 
from Chinese if I haven’t messed it up or misunderstood it: youde you, youde 
meiyou.  Some have it, some don’t.

 

Performance of an act, being configured in a state or condition, if we use 
passphrases rather than passwords, we can discriminate many categories.

 

So when we use metaphors to expand the scope of reference and discourse (to 
eventually shed their metaphor status and become true polysemes once our 
familiarity in the new domain is such that, as novelists say, it “stands up and 
casts a shadow”), are some of the metaphors more obligatory than others?  Are 
the psychologists sure they are right about which ones?  Are they right?

 

Eric

 

 

 





On Aug 24, 2021, at 3:06 AM, mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > wrote:

 

Argh!

 

How we seal ourselves in caves of nonsense!

 

And emotion is not something we “have”; it’s something we do.  Or, if you 
prefer a dualist sensory metaphor, it’s a particular mode of feeling the world. 
 

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

 

 https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > On 
Behalf Of Pieter Steenekamp
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 6:04 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

 

The creators of the Aibo robot dog say it has ‘real emotions and instinct’. 
This is obviously not true, it's just an illusion.

But then, according to Daniel Dennett, human consciousness is just an illusion.
https://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/dennett/papers/illusionism.pdf 

 

 

On Mon, 23 Aug 2021 at 09:18, Jochen Fromm mailto:j...@cas-group.net> > wrote:

"In today’s AI universe, all the eternal questions (about intentionality, 
consciousness, free will, mind-body problem...) have become engineering 
problems", argues this

Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

[David Eric Smith]

Nick, what’s the difference between having and doing?

I once heard Ray Jackendoff give quite a nice talk on word categories.  Of all 
of it, the one part I remember the most about is what he said about 
prepositions.  Even after you are getting right most of the rest of word usage 
in a new language (or handling it well with a dumb, rule-based translator), you 
are still at sea in the prepositions.  Their scopes are not completely 
arbitrary, but arbitrary in such large part that speakers essentially learn 
them nearly as a list of ad hoc applications.

But when we are in a specialist domain, such as reference to the unpacking of 
the convention-term “emotion”, which we all know is a different specialist 
domain from car ownership or the consumption of lunch, we know that verbs are 
not on any a priori firmer ground than prepositions.  Or it seems to me, we 
should expect that to be so.

I am struck by how widespread it is in languages to use the same particle or 
other construction for possession and attribution.  Both in concretes and in 
the abstractions that seemingly derive from them.  SteveG will like this one 
from Chinese if I haven’t messed it up or misunderstood it: youde you, youde 
meiyou.  Some have it, some don’t.

Performance of an act, being configured in a state or condition, if we use 
passphrases rather than passwords, we can discriminate many categories.

So when we use metaphors to expand the scope of reference and discourse (to 
eventually shed their metaphor status and become true polysemes once our 
familiarity in the new domain is such that, as novelists say, it “stands up and 
casts a shadow”), are some of the metaphors more obligatory than others?  Are 
the psychologists sure they are right about which ones?  Are they right?

Eric




> On Aug 24, 2021, at 3:06 AM,  
>  wrote:
> 
> Argh!
>  
> How we seal ourselves in caves of nonsense!
>  
> And emotion is not something we “have”; it’s something we do.  Or, if you 
> prefer a dualist sensory metaphor, it’s a particular mode of feeling the 
> world.  
>  
> n
>  
> Nick Thompson
> thompnicks...@gmail.com 
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ 
> 
>  
> From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
> Behalf Of Pieter Steenekamp
> Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 6:04 AM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group  >
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions
>  
> The creators of the Aibo robot dog say it has ‘real emotions and instinct’. 
> This is obviously not true, it's just an illusion.
> 
> But then, according to Daniel Dennett, human consciousness is just an 
> illusion.
> https://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/dennett/papers/illusionism.pdf 
> 
>  
> On Mon, 23 Aug 2021 at 09:18, Jochen Fromm  > wrote:
>> "In today’s AI universe, all the eternal questions (about intentionality, 
>> consciousness, free will, mind-body problem...) have become engineering 
>> problems", argues this Guardian article. 
>> https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/aug/10/dogs-inner-life-what-robot-pet-taught-me-about-consciousness-artificial-intelligence
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> -J.
>>  
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>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam 
>> 
>> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com 
>> 
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ 
>> 
>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ 
>> 

Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

[Steve Smith]

> Argh!
>
>  
>
> How we seal ourselves in caves of nonsense!
>
>  
>
> And emotion is not something we “have”; it’s something we do.
>
are you sure it isn't something we *are*?

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Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

[Jochen Fromm]

I have a small remote controlled R2D2 robot from Sphero. A present of my wife. 
If it is remote controlled it behaves as if it has intentions, desires and 
emotions, but of course it does not. The behavior just mirrors my intentions. 
https://youtu.be/YVwszeU3TVII would say real emotions are the tool used by 
genes to control their survival vehicles which work by setting up different 
levels of action readiness in certain situations (as Nico Frijda says). It 
should be possible to create artificial emotions that work like 
this.https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Emotions.html?id=QkNuuVf-pBMC&redir_esc=yFor
 example if we want a robot that autocharges itself we must create some sort of 
"hunger for energy". If we want a robot that protects itself against physical 
danger we must provide it with a sense of fear.-J.
 Original message From: Pieter Steenekamp 
 Date: 8/23/21  12:05  (GMT+01:00) To: The Friday 
Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group  Subject: Re: 
[FRIAM] Eternal questions The creators of the Aibo robot dog say it has ‘real 
emotions and instinct’. This is obviously not true, it's just an illusion.But 
then, according to Daniel Dennett, human consciousness is just an 
illusion.https://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/dennett/papers/illusionism.pdfOn Mon, 23 
Aug 2021 at 09:18, Jochen Fromm  wrote:"In today’s AI 
universe, all the eternal questions (about intentionality, consciousness, free 
will, mind-body problem...) have become engineering problems", argues this 
Guardian article. 
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/aug/10/dogs-inner-life-what-robot-pet-taught-me-about-consciousness-artificial-intelligence-J.-
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Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

I disagree completely. We definitely have emotions, just like we have a steak 
dinner, or have a loving relationship. As I tried to point out with the Wolpert 
article, just because your monism can be fully iterated out, reverse-derived 
from leaf node to trunk, doesn't falsify the intermediate, local scopes used in 
the derivation.

The more you say things like "emotion is not something we 'have'; it's 
something we do", the less people will pay attention to you. The less they'll 
take you seriously. We have emotions in exactly the same way we have fingers 
and toes. Sure, some purist somewhere might argue we *express* fingers ... so 
you don't have a thumb, you *grew* a thumb, you *do* your thumb. But sheesh. 
Come on.

Similar to my argument Friday where I claimed we *are* bundles of 
dis-integrated contradictions and to be integrated would be hell on earth, we 
*are* a dynamic interplay of scoping. Sometimes I *do* my thumb. Sometimes I 
think of my thumb as some other thing, not part of me. This is what we do when 
we reflect on our condition. And we do it all the time. To say we don't do that 
would be simplistic nonsense.


On 8/23/21 11:06 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> And emotion is not something we “have”; it’s something we do.  Or, if you 
> prefer a dualist sensory metaphor, it’s a particular mode of feeling the 
> world. 

-- 
☤>$ uǝlƃ

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Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

[Frank Wimberly]

You're trying hard to avoid the eternal homunculus problem.  Calling it
denigrating names is not an answer.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 12:07 PM  wrote:

> Argh!
>
>
>
> How we seal ourselves in caves of nonsense!
>
>
>
> And emotion is not something we “have”; it’s something we do.  Or, if you
> prefer a dualist sensory metaphor, it’s a particular mode of feeling the
> world.
>
>
>
> n
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Pieter Steenekamp
> *Sent:* Monday, August 23, 2021 6:04 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions
>
>
>
> The creators of the Aibo robot dog say it has ‘real emotions and
> instinct’. This is obviously not true, it's just an illusion.
>
> But then, according to Daniel Dennett, human consciousness is just an
> illusion.
> https://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/dennett/papers/illusionism.pdf
>
>
>
> On Mon, 23 Aug 2021 at 09:18, Jochen Fromm  wrote:
>
> "In today’s AI universe, all the eternal questions (about intentionality,
> consciousness, free will, mind-body problem...) have become engineering
> problems", argues this Guardian article.
>
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/aug/10/dogs-inner-life-what-robot-pet-taught-me-about-consciousness-artificial-intelligence
>
>
>
> -J.
>
>
>
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>
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>
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Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

[thompnickson2]

Argh!

 

How we seal ourselves in caves of nonsense!

 

And emotion is not something we “have”; it’s something we do.  Or, if you 
prefer a dualist sensory metaphor, it’s a particular mode of feeling the world. 
 

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Pieter Steenekamp
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 6:04 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

 

The creators of the Aibo robot dog say it has ‘real emotions and instinct’. 
This is obviously not true, it's just an illusion.

But then, according to Daniel Dennett, human consciousness is just an illusion.
https://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/dennett/papers/illusionism.pdf

 

On Mon, 23 Aug 2021 at 09:18, Jochen Fromm mailto:j...@cas-group.net> > wrote:

"In today’s AI universe, all the eternal questions (about intentionality, 
consciousness, free will, mind-body problem...) have become engineering 
problems", argues this Guardian article. 

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/aug/10/dogs-inner-life-what-robot-pet-taught-me-about-consciousness-artificial-intelligence

 

-J.

 

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Re: [FRIAM] Steaming services

[Curt McNamara]

Speaking of curation - nothing better than a radio show for me! I stream
WORT out of Madison and enjoy several of their hosts enough to regularly
buy CDs based on what they play.

You can explore many stations across the world here:
http://radio.garden

After listening you can find the station web site which probably maybe has
playlists ... and archives of past shows.

   Curt

On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 11:29 AM uǝlƃ ☤>$  wrote:

> Along the same lines as my comment on "gatekeeping" <
> https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Gatekeeping> at vFriAM, I
> had an excellent conversation with a bartender on Saturday. When we got
> around to discussing the purposes of music, including a debate about
> moshing/dancing and how that physical activity, that kata, *interferes* [♯]
> with one's music processing, he suggested I try out Sunn O))) <
> https://sunn.southernlord.com/> [♭]. Along the same lines as Dave's
> rendering of mysticism, the rise of predictive processing, fixed state
> disorders, and audial illusions in understanding cognition, our
> expectations are the overwhelming drivers for how we listen to music.
>
> In line with Jon, I feel anything that inhibits my access to
> interestingness as claustrophobic, including any pressure to "dumb down" or
> pander to those outside whatever clique I'm currently in. (E.g. I saw a
> metal critic poke fun at my favorite doom with "Are they trying to go as
> slow as possible?" -- If you don't grok doom ... don't listen to doom, you
> moron. Go back to your speed-growl and leave us alone.)
>
> In line with Marcus, however, connection to the artist is obviously
> important to some subset of musical purpose. This bartender has written for
> 2 bands and considers himself a full member of 2 others. In promoting his
> music to me, he begged off telling me about his earlier work (he's a kid,
> actually ... like 25 years old pt), he said it was im-/pre-mature and
> not very good. But, in my mind, the arc of the artist(s) is way more
> important than the finished product, much the same way the compositional
> arc of a single tune is more important than any one part or voice.
>
> On-demand streaming services debilitate both those fulcrums. On the other
> hand, curation can go a long way to both expanding and homogenizing the
> paths through the graph. When curation starts sounding/feeling like
> promotion and marketing, I inevitably lose interest. But when the curator
> authentically digs what they're curating (even if it's only to identify why
> some thing is so aweful), I stay hooked.
>
>
> [♯] By which I mean both reinforcing and inhibiting, transmission to and
> from, between the source and the receiver. Maybe "mediates" is a better
> word ... but I hate the way "media" is used these days.
>
> [♭] I'm a big fan of interactive/live noise, not so much pre-recorded
> noise.
>
> On 8/22/21 11:46 AM, Steve Smith wrote:
> > On 8/22/21 8:28 AM, ⛧ glen wrote:
> >> It does both, perhaps counterintuitively. I'd argue it facilitates
> traffic between demes/cliques, but inhibits the content of demes/cliques.
> >
> > I am a sucker for local AM radio when traveling... to put my finger on
> the pulse of the locals, as it were.  What music they listen to, what their
> news-of-choice leans toward, and what they are buying/selling/trading with
> one another.  "If you can hear this station, what you hear *might* be
> relevant to you *right now*"
> >
> > When internet radio stations started popping up (KTAO in Taos being an
> early adopter), I found myself sampling these local stations around the
> world... one in particular being in Australia (forget the call sign/town)
> and having a strong familiarity to the myriad country AND western stations
> up and down the rockies and out into the plains of the US West, but with an
> Aussie accented DJ of course.Unfortunately it didn't replicate the
> experience because I was patently NOT there... I could NOT plan a detour to
> catch the local farmer's market or check out a local joint (where there
> burgers would have pineapple and plum sauce instead of pickles and
> ketchup)...   But what I was most struck by was that they were playing 95%
> American Mainstream (C&W) music and referencing OUR icons of music
> deeply/exclusively.   Only occasionally would I catch a "local" artist
> (Australeonesia?)  I felt simultaneously expanded and constrained.
> >
> > When I moved to a small city/big town on the border (DouglasAZ/Agua
> Prieta SA) our first neighbors were a Mexican American family who were one
> of the local bands that played every venue, mostly rock but with their own
> ranchera stylization often.   They would sit around evenings playing a wide
> range of music, including the father, a sister and a younger brother (maybe
> 5? too young to participate in the public events).   We moved away from
> that house within 6 months but I continued to hear them the whole 8 years I
> lived in that town, they probably played at bot

Re: [FRIAM] Steaming services

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

Along the same lines as my comment on "gatekeeping" 
 at vFriAM, I had 
an excellent conversation with a bartender on Saturday. When we got around to 
discussing the purposes of music, including a debate about moshing/dancing and 
how that physical activity, that kata, *interferes* [♯] with one's music 
processing, he suggested I try out Sunn O)))  
[♭]. Along the same lines as Dave's rendering of mysticism, the rise of 
predictive processing, fixed state disorders, and audial illusions in 
understanding cognition, our expectations are the overwhelming drivers for how 
we listen to music.

In line with Jon, I feel anything that inhibits my access to interestingness as 
claustrophobic, including any pressure to "dumb down" or pander to those 
outside whatever clique I'm currently in. (E.g. I saw a metal critic poke fun 
at my favorite doom with "Are they trying to go as slow as possible?" -- If you 
don't grok doom ... don't listen to doom, you moron. Go back to your 
speed-growl and leave us alone.)

In line with Marcus, however, connection to the artist is obviously important 
to some subset of musical purpose. This bartender has written for 2 bands and 
considers himself a full member of 2 others. In promoting his music to me, he 
begged off telling me about his earlier work (he's a kid, actually ... like 25 
years old pt), he said it was im-/pre-mature and not very good. But, in my 
mind, the arc of the artist(s) is way more important than the finished product, 
much the same way the compositional arc of a single tune is more important than 
any one part or voice. 

On-demand streaming services debilitate both those fulcrums. On the other hand, 
curation can go a long way to both expanding and homogenizing the paths through 
the graph. When curation starts sounding/feeling like promotion and marketing, 
I inevitably lose interest. But when the curator authentically digs what 
they're curating (even if it's only to identify why some thing is so aweful), I 
stay hooked.


[♯] By which I mean both reinforcing and inhibiting, transmission to and from, 
between the source and the receiver. Maybe "mediates" is a better word ... but 
I hate the way "media" is used these days.

[♭] I'm a big fan of interactive/live noise, not so much pre-recorded noise.

On 8/22/21 11:46 AM, Steve Smith wrote:
> On 8/22/21 8:28 AM, ⛧ glen wrote:
>> It does both, perhaps counterintuitively. I'd argue it facilitates traffic 
>> between demes/cliques, but inhibits the content of demes/cliques.
> 
> I am a sucker for local AM radio when traveling... to put my finger on the 
> pulse of the locals, as it were.  What music they listen to, what their 
> news-of-choice leans toward, and what they are buying/selling/trading with 
> one another.  "If you can hear this station, what you hear *might* be 
> relevant to you *right now*"
> 
> When internet radio stations started popping up (KTAO in Taos being an early 
> adopter), I found myself sampling these local stations around the world... 
> one in particular being in Australia (forget the call sign/town) and having a 
> strong familiarity to the myriad country AND western stations up and down the 
> rockies and out into the plains of the US West, but with an Aussie accented 
> DJ of course.    Unfortunately it didn't replicate the experience because I 
> was patently NOT there... I could NOT plan a detour to catch the local 
> farmer's market or check out a local joint (where there burgers would have 
> pineapple and plum sauce instead of pickles and ketchup)...   But what I was 
> most struck by was that they were playing 95% American Mainstream (C&W) music 
> and referencing OUR icons of music deeply/exclusively.   Only occasionally 
> would I catch a "local" artist (Australeonesia?)  I felt simultaneously 
> expanded and constrained.
> 
> When I moved to a small city/big town on the border (DouglasAZ/Agua Prieta 
> SA) our first neighbors were a Mexican American family who were one of the 
> local bands that played every venue, mostly rock but with their own ranchera 
> stylization often.   They would sit around evenings playing a wide range of 
> music, including the father, a sister and a younger brother (maybe 5? too 
> young to participate in the public events).   We moved away from that house 
> within 6 months but I continued to hear them the whole 8 years I lived in 
> that town, they probably played at both of my proms and any other public 
> musical event I might have attended.   What never crossed my mind (until now) 
> was that for the 4 years I was a Disc Jockey, I never heard them play on air, 
> nor was I motivated/inclined to seek them out.  Why not?  Linda Ronstadt (100 
> miles away) was hitting it big from similar roots, why not them?   I guess 
> because they weren't on the Billboard Top 100 charts they sent us every month,
> telling us what was hot and what was not?  T

Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

[Steve Smith]

> Then Cory Doctorow ponders the other eternal question: is this all
> bullshit?
>
> https://doctorow.medium.com/machine-learnings-crumbling-foundations-bd11efa22b0
> 
>
> -- rec --


After decades at LANL, I'm painfully aware of "Technological Debt"...  
I have built few technological assets in my subsequent decade+ on my own
and in consequence, very little technological debt.    I feel more of
that in my personal extended phenotype (home/stead, vehicles, computer
tech, hand-tools) these days.   Am I hampered in some way by my
dependence on (now 15 year old) Ryobi 18V cordless hand-tool
technology?  Is my 2001 Dodge Diesel Truck "holding me back" in some
way?  Certainly the maintenance demands some of my archaic (e.g. 50 year
old well and water distribution network) systems are more finicky than a
modern refresh of them might be?

This article leads me to ponder whether "evolution of species" itself
does not accrue "Technological Debt"?  Is the "Junk DNA/genes" we like
to credit as being more of a "boneyard" to pull out in a pinch (closer
in mutation space than "creating" entire new genes, etc.?) also in some
way a burden?   Certainly we want to believe that vestigal features such
as the Appendix or Tonsils or Tailbones, etc.  are "harmless",  but we
also know that they do represent (sometimes) liabilities which might
outweigh their remaining functional advantages?   Is this (also) how
some species (or more aptly clades like Marsupials) end up going
extinct?   By building a house of cards of
functional-enough-but-not-quite-good-enough-in-the-context-of-yet-better
technology, do we set ourselves up for eventual failure?

Trees are self-pruning, are evolutionary trees also? 

- sas



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Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

[Frank Wimberly]

Consciousness is an illusion experienced by a conscious mind?

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 4:05 AM Pieter Steenekamp 
wrote:

> The creators of the Aibo robot dog say it has ‘real emotions and
> instinct’. This is obviously not true, it's just an illusion.
>
> But then, according to Daniel Dennett, human consciousness is just an
> illusion.
> https://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/dennett/papers/illusionism.pdf
>
> On Mon, 23 Aug 2021 at 09:18, Jochen Fromm  wrote:
>
>> "In today’s AI universe, all the eternal questions (about intentionality,
>> consciousness, free will, mind-body problem...) have become engineering
>> problems", argues this Guardian article.
>>
>> https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/aug/10/dogs-inner-life-what-robot-pet-taught-me-about-consciousness-artificial-intelligence
>>
>> -J.
>>
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>>
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Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

[Marcus Daniels]

Check out Tesla AI day..  Speaking to that concern, they collect tons of data 
and use very high fidelity simulators.

https://youtu.be/j0z4FweCy4M

On Aug 23, 2021, at 5:24 AM, Roger Critchlow  wrote:


Then Cory Doctorow ponders the other eternal question: is this all bullshit?

https://doctorow.medium.com/machine-learnings-crumbling-foundations-bd11efa22b0

-- rec --

On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 3:18 AM Jochen Fromm 
mailto:j...@cas-group.net>> wrote:
"In today’s AI universe, all the eternal questions (about intentionality, 
consciousness, free will, mind-body problem...) have become engineering 
problems", argues this Guardian article.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/aug/10/dogs-inner-life-what-robot-pet-taught-me-about-consciousness-artificial-intelligence

-J.

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Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

[Roger Critchlow]

Then Cory Doctorow ponders the other eternal question: is this all bullshit?

https://doctorow.medium.com/machine-learnings-crumbling-foundations-bd11efa22b0

-- rec --

On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 3:18 AM Jochen Fromm  wrote:

> "In today’s AI universe, all the eternal questions (about intentionality,
> consciousness, free will, mind-body problem...) have become engineering
> problems", argues this Guardian article.
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/aug/10/dogs-inner-life-what-robot-pet-taught-me-about-consciousness-artificial-intelligence
>
> -J.
>
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> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

[Pieter Steenekamp]

The creators of the Aibo robot dog say it has ‘real emotions and instinct’.
This is obviously not true, it's just an illusion.

But then, according to Daniel Dennett, human consciousness is just an
illusion.
https://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/dennett/papers/illusionism.pdf

On Mon, 23 Aug 2021 at 09:18, Jochen Fromm  wrote:

> "In today’s AI universe, all the eternal questions (about intentionality,
> consciousness, free will, mind-body problem...) have become engineering
> problems", argues this Guardian article.
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/aug/10/dogs-inner-life-what-robot-pet-taught-me-about-consciousness-artificial-intelligence
>
> -J.
>
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>
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[FRIAM] Eternal questions

[Jochen Fromm]

"In today’s AI universe, all the eternal questions (about intentionality, 
consciousness, free will, mind-body problem...) have become engineering 
problems", argues this Guardian article. 
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/aug/10/dogs-inner-life-what-robot-pet-taught-me-about-consciousness-artificial-intelligence-J.-  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
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