[FRIAM] we are lost

2021-10-28 Thread Roger Critchlow 
I'm 3d printing so I googled up dodecahedron to find a set of coordinates.

Google told me that people also ask:

  What is the purpose of the dodecahedron?

So, not only do we attribute teleology to inanimate objects, weather,
animals, and people, but also to the platonic solids.  Which probably leads
to:

  What do categories want?

-- rec --

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Re: [FRIAM] What can or can't (shouldn't) be said on FriAM...

2021-10-28 Thread Jon Zingale 
It is a quote from Cormac McCarthy. I did not know that he worked as a
stonemason. The quote is from Blood Meridian.

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Re: [FRIAM] we are lost

2021-10-28 Thread Marcus Daniels 


> So, not only do we attribute teleology to inanimate objects, weather, 
> animals, and people, but also to the platonic solids.  Which probably leads 
> to:
> 
>   What do categories want?

Love, recognition and safety?   Someone phone HR and get the ball rolling on a 
new policy!

Marcus

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Re: [FRIAM] What can or can't (shouldn't) be said on FriAM...

2021-10-28 Thread Jon Zingale 
The Stonemason looks good, I just ordered a copy. The quote is given by the
Judge in chapter 11. Glanton's gang is making their way north, following
the forests of the Gila, when they come upon the ruins at Keet Seel. Just
before, the Judge tells the story of all men. It appears as if it were his
own history, but then it also appears as if it were the kid's, and by the
end, every member of Glanton's gang "remembers" it differently.

Also in that chapter is the only reference I have ever read of the massacre
at Gnadenhutten. Growing up in Ohio, I am shocked by how completely native
American history was erased from midwestern/east coast curricula. I am
grateful for McCarthy's research and attention to detail, even if others
deem his writing inappropriate.

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Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

2021-10-28 Thread Jon Zingale 
"""

There is a formalism for discrete-event dynamical systems known as
“bond graphs”.

"""

>From a brief survey of the wikipedia entry:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bond_graph

I see one of the advantages of bond graphs over traditional
hypergraphs is the bi-directional nature of the linkages. How similar
is the bond graph formalism to the generalization of hypergraphs to
operads?

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Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

2021-10-28 Thread Jon Zingale 
Cool. It seems that some of the work on the connection between bond graphs
and operads was fleshed out by Coya, here:

"Circuits, Bond Graphs, and Signal-Flow Diagrams: A Categorical Perspective"
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1805.08290.pdf

supported by work, here:

"A Compositional Framework for Bond Graphs"
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1710.00098.pdf

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Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

2021-10-28 Thread uǝlƃ ☤ $ 
There's an opportunity to dovetail the pandemic-hastened restructuring of the 
work force, cancel culture, upward trends in socialism, and climate change. At 
the last salon, I was berated, yet again, for allowing my pet cats free access 
to the outdoors. The tack I took in the conversation, because we weren't just 
chatting, we were "in salon" (whatever that means), was a crypto-criticism of 
Utilitarianism. I chose this because my gank [🎮] of opponents are "ecologists", 
asserting the debatable devastation of domestic cats on biodiversity. Yes, this 
post is also about value alignment and the arrogant grand narrative of Societal 
Engineering for Biodiversity.

I will not be able to retire, nor will most of the people my age or younger. 
Or, you could slip a little on the binding and say most of us have retired many 
times, from many different jobs, to clear space so we can launch a career in 
another dead-end job. What is it we're doing, as a society? If we buy that 
cultural evolution is a thing, what are the operators? Are we witnessing new 
operators or are these the same old operators, just percolating into our 
privileged space from their endemic home amongst the underprivileged classes. 
There are several essays on how tribal life was NOT "nasty, brutish, and 
short", but more laconic ... like a cat's ... explosive efforts of hunt or 
defend, punctuating periods of resting and futzing with the tools. Modern 
"anti-workers" 

 sound a bit like cats, to me.

Of course, there is the stereotype of a solitary stray living under constant 
stress, scraping through dumpsters or hunting moths between desperate fights 
with other strays and their bacteria-poisoned teeth and claws. But this is, I 
think, a bit of a myth born of fallacious inter-species mind-reading by hedonic 
humans. Part of the reason cats are so devastating to "wildlife" is because 
they are not hedonic at all. They've all got a thrill-seeking death wish. Well, 
most do. We have a cat who has a mental illness, maybe many. She stays in her 
Princess Dungeon all day every day, only exiting to use the box or make the 
terrifying journey to the water and food upstairs. But every other cat I've 
ever interacted with is part of the nihilistic thrill-kill cult. Of course 
we'll take the rare opportunity to rest comfy in a dry puff of dirty laundry 
sometimes. But mostly, we'd rather be squinting in the cold rain, statue-still, 
waiting to pounce, chase, kill, and rend.

So, like my cat-hating ecologist gankers, I don't feel pity for the homeless, 
suffering kitten scraping by out there. This is the world. Life sucks. Then you 
die. The trick is learning to enjoy it.

I realize, at the end of my little essay, that it may not be clear how this 
relates to cancel culture or climate change. But, like a joke, explaining it 
ruins it.


[🎮] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_video_game_terms

On 10/27/21 1:32 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> It is confusing to me why retired people would be particularly cautious in 
> their remarks.   What difference does it make if they inflame?  It isn't like 
> they could be fired for it.   Old habits die hard, I guess.

-- 
"Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie."
☤>$ uǝlƃ


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Re: [FRIAM] we are lost

2021-10-28 Thread thompnickson2 
What do categories want?

 

More than one example that actually fits. 

 

n

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Sarbajit Roy
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2021 10:47 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] we are lost

 

Actually these "valuable" Roman objects are the subject of some theories about 
their function

PDF attached

 

On Thu, Oct 28, 2021 at 6:42 PM Roger Critchlow mailto:r...@elf.org> > wrote:

I'm 3d printing so I googled up dodecahedron to find a set of coordinates.

 

Google told me that people also ask:

 

  What is the purpose of the dodecahedron?

 

So, not only do we attribute teleology to inanimate objects, weather, animals, 
and people, but also to the platonic solids.  Which probably leads to:

 

  What do categories want?

 

-- rec --

 


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Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

2021-10-28 Thread thompnickson2 
All, 

 

The thing below is an elegant essay, a cri de coeur, that will reward reading, 
if you haven't done so already.  I want to let it stand as is, before I agree 
or disagree with it.  

 

N

 

 

 

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2021 10:40 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

 

There's an opportunity to dovetail the pandemic-hastened restructuring of the 
work force, cancel culture, upward trends in socialism, and climate change. At 
the last salon, I was berated, yet again, for allowing my pet cats free access 
to the outdoors. The tack I took in the conversation, because we weren't just 
chatting, we were "in salon" (whatever that means), was a crypto-criticism of 
Utilitarianism. I chose this because my gank [🎮] of opponents are "ecologists", 
asserting the debatable devastation of domestic cats on biodiversity. Yes, this 
post is also about value alignment and the arrogant grand narrative of Societal 
Engineering for Biodiversity.

 

I will not be able to retire, nor will most of the people my age or younger. 
Or, you could slip a little on the binding and say most of us have retired many 
times, from many different jobs, to clear space so we can launch a career in 
another dead-end job. What is it we're doing, as a society? If we buy that 
cultural evolution is a thing, what are the operators? Are we witnessing new 
operators or are these the same old operators, just percolating into our 
privileged space from their endemic home amongst the underprivileged classes. 
There are several essays on how tribal life was NOT "nasty, brutish, and 
short", but more laconic ... like a cat's ... explosive efforts of hunt or 
defend, punctuating periods of resting and futzing with the tools. Modern 
"anti-workers" < 

 
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/27/quit-your-job-join-anti-work-movement-elle-hunt>
 sound a bit like cats, to me.

 

Of course, there is the stereotype of a solitary stray living under constant 
stress, scraping through dumpsters or hunting moths between desperate fights 
with other strays and their bacteria-poisoned teeth and claws. But this is, I 
think, a bit of a myth born of fallacious inter-species mind-reading by hedonic 
humans. Part of the reason cats are so devastating to "wildlife" is because 
they are not hedonic at all. They've all got a thrill-seeking death wish. Well, 
most do. We have a cat who has a mental illness, maybe many. She stays in her 
Princess Dungeon all day every day, only exiting to use the box or make the 
terrifying journey to the water and food upstairs. But every other cat I've 
ever interacted with is part of the nihilistic thrill-kill cult. Of course 
we'll take the rare opportunity to rest comfy in a dry puff of dirty laundry 
sometimes. But mostly, we'd rather be squinting in the cold rain, statue-still, 
waiting to pounce, chase, kill, and rend.

 

So, like my cat-hating ecologist gankers, I don't feel pity for the homeless, 
suffering kitten scraping by out there. This is the world. Life sucks. Then you 
die. The trick is learning to enjoy it.

 

I realize, at the end of my little essay, that it may not be clear how this 
relates to cancel culture or climate change. But, like a joke, explaining it 
ruins it.

 

 

[🎮]   
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_video_game_terms

 

On 10/27/21 1:32 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

> It is confusing to me why retired people would be particularly cautious in 
> their remarks.   What difference does it make if they inflame?  It isn't like 
> they could be fired for it.   Old habits die hard, I guess.

 

-- 

"Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie."

☤>$ uǝlƃ

 

 

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Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

2021-10-28 Thread Marcus Daniels 
I imagine Greta Thunberg has some ideas pass through her head about thrill 
kills.   So long as it is all good -- individually as a group -- I say fair 
enough. 

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2021 9:40 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

There's an opportunity to dovetail the pandemic-hastened restructuring of the 
work force, cancel culture, upward trends in socialism, and climate change. At 
the last salon, I was berated, yet again, for allowing my pet cats free access 
to the outdoors. The tack I took in the conversation, because we weren't just 
chatting, we were "in salon" (whatever that means), was a crypto-criticism of 
Utilitarianism. I chose this because my gank [🎮] of opponents are "ecologists", 
asserting the debatable devastation of domestic cats on biodiversity. Yes, this 
post is also about value alignment and the arrogant grand narrative of Societal 
Engineering for Biodiversity.

I will not be able to retire, nor will most of the people my age or younger. 
Or, you could slip a little on the binding and say most of us have retired many 
times, from many different jobs, to clear space so we can launch a career in 
another dead-end job. What is it we're doing, as a society? If we buy that 
cultural evolution is a thing, what are the operators? Are we witnessing new 
operators or are these the same old operators, just percolating into our 
privileged space from their endemic home amongst the underprivileged classes. 
There are several essays on how tribal life was NOT "nasty, brutish, and 
short", but more laconic ... like a cat's ... explosive efforts of hunt or 
defend, punctuating periods of resting and futzing with the tools. Modern 
"anti-workers" 

 sound a bit like cats, to me.

Of course, there is the stereotype of a solitary stray living under constant 
stress, scraping through dumpsters or hunting moths between desperate fights 
with other strays and their bacteria-poisoned teeth and claws. But this is, I 
think, a bit of a myth born of fallacious inter-species mind-reading by hedonic 
humans. Part of the reason cats are so devastating to "wildlife" is because 
they are not hedonic at all. They've all got a thrill-seeking death wish. Well, 
most do. We have a cat who has a mental illness, maybe many. She stays in her 
Princess Dungeon all day every day, only exiting to use the box or make the 
terrifying journey to the water and food upstairs. But every other cat I've 
ever interacted with is part of the nihilistic thrill-kill cult. Of course 
we'll take the rare opportunity to rest comfy in a dry puff of dirty laundry 
sometimes. But mostly, we'd rather be squinting in the cold rain, statue-still, 
waiting to pounce, chase, kill, and rend.

So, like my cat-hating ecologist gankers, I don't feel pity for the homeless, 
suffering kitten scraping by out there. This is the world. Life sucks. Then you 
die. The trick is learning to enjoy it.

I realize, at the end of my little essay, that it may not be clear how this 
relates to cancel culture or climate change. But, like a joke, explaining it 
ruins it.


[🎮] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_video_game_terms

On 10/27/21 1:32 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> It is confusing to me why retired people would be particularly cautious in 
> their remarks.   What difference does it make if they inflame?  It isn't like 
> they could be fired for it.   Old habits die hard, I guess.

-- 
"Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie."
☤>$ uǝlƃ


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Re: [FRIAM] we are lost

2021-10-28 Thread thompnickson2 
Ok, So, Marcus, 

 

>   What do categories want?

 

Love, recognition and safety?   Someone phone HR and get the ball rolling on
a new policy!

 

Spoken from the high perch of Irony.  Irony is like wormwood, delightful in
small doses but ultimately toxic.  Do we not all want love, recognition, and
safety?  Do we also want excitement and challenge.  Go figure!   Some of us
crave more of the one; some more of the other.  Given the contradiction
between those things, can we expect the right balance be guaranteed for each
and every one of us, for all time?  No.  Of course not.   But is that reason
to mock human striving toward these goals?  Or to mock Utilitarian attempts
to facilitate their achievement?  No.  I don't think so.  Irony is a guilty
pleasure.  Even though I use it and enjoy it, I have to admit that it is a
an abdication and fails as a policy.  

 

Nick 

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2021 8:18 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] we are lost

 

 

> So, not only do we attribute teleology to inanimate objects, weather,
animals, and people, but also to the platonic solids.  Which probably leads
to:

> 

>   What do categories want?

 

Love, recognition and safety?   Someone phone HR and get the ball rolling on
a new policy!

 

Marcus

 

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Re: [FRIAM] we are lost

2021-10-28 Thread uǝlƃ ☤ $ 
Nah. Irony is more than a guilty pleasure. It's a crucial tool in the 
authentication toolbox. That becomes obvious when considering gate keeping 
between subcultures. It's easy to assume such gate keeping is bad. 
Hyper-democrats make such assumptions all the time. But gate keeping is simply 
a form of establishing us vs. them. And it's not merely binary, either. There 
are scales to irony. When you express a layered irony, based on the feedback 
from it, you can distinguish Them from Tourists from Ally from Us. This is, 
essentially, [Counter ]Intelligence 101. 

As for what categories want, there's a perfectly non-teleological connotation 
of "want" that we could have used to respond to Roger's question, that hooks 
almost like lock and key, or hand in glove, to the recent thread(s) on duality. 
But, again, "know 10 things. say 9."

On 10/28/21 11:29 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> On 10/28/21 7:17 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> 
>>> So, not only do we attribute teleology to inanimate objects, weather, 
>>> animals, and people, but also to the platonic solids.  Which probably leads 
>>> to:
>>>
>>>   What do categories want?
>> 
>> Love, recognition and safety?   Someone phone HR and get the ball rolling on 
>> a new policy!
>> 
> 
> Spoken from the high perch of Irony.  Irony is like wormwood, delightful in 
> small doses but ultimately toxic.  Do we not all want love, recognition, and 
> safety?  Do we also want excitement and challenge.  Go figure!   Some of us 
> crave more of the one; some more of the other.  Given the contradiction 
> between those things, can we expect the right balance be guaranteed for each 
> and every one of us, for all time?  No.  Of course not.   But is that reason 
> to mock human striving toward these goals?  Or to mock Utilitarian attempts 
> to facilitate their achievement?  No.  I don’t think so.  Irony is a guilty 
> pleasure.  Even though I use it and enjoy it, I have to admit that it is a an 
> abdication and fails as a policy. 
> 

-- 
"Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie."
☤>$ uǝlƃ


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Re: [FRIAM] we are lost

2021-10-28 Thread thompnickson2 
And the tenth is?

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2021 12:45 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] we are lost

Nah. Irony is more than a guilty pleasure. It's a crucial tool in the 
authentication toolbox. That becomes obvious when considering gate keeping 
between subcultures. It's easy to assume such gate keeping is bad. 
Hyper-democrats make such assumptions all the time. But gate keeping is simply 
a form of establishing us vs. them. And it's not merely binary, either. There 
are scales to irony. When you express a layered irony, based on the feedback 
from it, you can distinguish Them from Tourists from Ally from Us. This is, 
essentially, [Counter ]Intelligence 101. 

As for what categories want, there's a perfectly non-teleological connotation 
of "want" that we could have used to respond to Roger's question, that hooks 
almost like lock and key, or hand in glove, to the recent thread(s) on duality. 
But, again, "know 10 things. say 9."

On 10/28/21 11:29 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> On 10/28/21 7:17 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> 
>>> So, not only do we attribute teleology to inanimate objects, weather, 
>>> animals, and people, but also to the platonic solids.  Which probably leads 
>>> to:
>>>
>>>   What do categories want?
>> 
>> Love, recognition and safety?   Someone phone HR and get the ball rolling on 
>> a new policy!
>> 
> 
> Spoken from the high perch of Irony.  Irony is like wormwood, delightful in 
> small doses but ultimately toxic.  Do we not all want love, recognition, and 
> safety?  Do we also want excitement and challenge.  Go figure!   Some of us 
> crave more of the one; some more of the other.  Given the contradiction 
> between those things, can we expect the right balance be guaranteed for each 
> and every one of us, for all time?  No.  Of course not.   But is that reason 
> to mock human striving toward these goals?  Or to mock Utilitarian attempts 
> to facilitate their achievement?  No.  I don’t think so.  Irony is a guilty 
> pleasure.  Even though I use it and enjoy it, I have to admit that it is a an 
> abdication and fails as a policy. 
> 

-- 
"Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie."
☤>$ uǝlƃ


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Re: [FRIAM] we are lost

2021-10-28 Thread Gary Schiltz 
I have to agree with you, Nick. If we as a species are to survive, we've
got to stop this reversion back to our pre-civilized roots. I'm not really
a bleeding-heart liberal, but I do want to evolve beyond survival of the
fittest.

On Thu, Oct 28, 2021 at 1:30 PM  wrote:

> Ok, So, Marcus,
>
>
>
> >   What do categories want?
>
>
>
> Love, recognition and safety?   Someone phone HR and get the ball rolling
> on a new policy!
>
>
>
> Spoken from the high perch of Irony.  Irony is like wormwood, delightful
> in small doses but ultimately toxic.  Do we not all want love, recognition,
> and safety?  Do we also want excitement and challenge.  Go figure!   Some
> of us crave more of the one; some more of the other.  Given the
> contradiction between those things, can we expect the right balance be
> guaranteed for each and every one of us, for all time?  No.  Of course
> not.   But is that reason to mock human striving toward these goals?  Or to
> mock Utilitarian attempts to facilitate their achievement?  No.  I don’t
> think so.  Irony is a guilty pleasure.  Even though I use it and enjoy it,
> I have to admit that it is a an abdication and fails as a policy.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
> Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2021 8:18 AM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] we are lost
>
>
>
>
>
> > So, not only do we attribute teleology to inanimate objects, weather,
> animals, and people, but also to the platonic solids.  Which probably leads
> to:
>
> >
>
> >   What do categories want?
>
>
>
> Love, recognition and safety?   Someone phone HR and get the ball rolling
> on a new policy!
>
>
>
> Marcus
>
>
>
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