Re: [FRIAM] Looking for an algorithm
Great. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Wed, Nov 3, 2021, 5:58 PM Jon Zingale wrote: > Yep. That is what I am talking about. Getting a copy of Van Loan and > Golub's classic "Maxtrix Computations" was long overdue, but I finally did > it. Between that and the papers cited in my post before, I hope to get a > better sense of the problem. > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] Looking for an algorithm
Yep. That is what I am talking about. Getting a copy of Van Loan and Golub's classic "Maxtrix Computations" was long overdue, but I finally did it. Between that and the papers cited in my post before, I hope to get a better sense of the problem. .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] Looking for an algorithm
Usually by the tensor product of two matrices peopleean the Kronecker product. Is that what you mean? --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Wed, Nov 3, 2021, 2:13 PM Jon Zingale wrote: > Hey all, > > Given a square matrix over Z2, how do I find whether or not it is the > tensor product of two simpler square matrices? Are there well-known > algorithms for deciding this as well as for finding what matrices the > original *can be* factored into? > > [*] Because it is obvious that such factorizations will not always be > unique even over the field Z2. > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] Looking for an algorithm
Ok, I can almost see a connection now. My coworker sent me this stack exchange post: https://mathematica.stackexchange.com/questions/91651/nearest-kronecker-product This led me to this Springer article: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-94-015-8196-7_17 and this ScienceDirect article: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S037704273939?via%3Dihub I will likely need to dive in a bit more and maybe test the MatLab code against my handworked examples. Thanks again for the pointer. Also, totally orthogonal to this topic, this paper also came up at work: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/acs.jctc.1c00562 .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] Looking for an algorithm
Maybe? As I understand what is typically called matrix decomposition, and tensor decomposition, is something more akin to SVD. I haven't been able to bridge the gap between the two ideas, though it might be my own lack. Anyway, thanks for looking. .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] Looking for an algorithm
Sounds like SmartTensors from LANL might be what you want? I’m not sure if that does integers. It focuses only on non-negative I think. From: Friam On Behalf Of Jon Zingale Sent: Wednesday, November 3, 2021 1:13 PM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: [FRIAM] Looking for an algorithm Hey all, Given a square matrix over Z2, how do I find whether or not it is the tensor product of two simpler square matrices? Are there well-known algorithms for deciding this as well as for finding what matrices the original *can be* factored into? [*] Because it is obvious that such factorizations will not always be unique even over the field Z2. .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
[FRIAM] Looking for an algorithm
Hey all, Given a square matrix over Z2, how do I find whether or not it is the tensor product of two simpler square matrices? Are there well-known algorithms for deciding this as well as for finding what matrices the original *can be* factored into? [*] Because it is obvious that such factorizations will not always be unique even over the field Z2. .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] lurking
Ok, part of the story is knowing what is really needed for reproducibility as a function of context. With that, then there's the matter of how much control is afforded. Is it programmable in predictable ways? -Original Message- From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ Sent: Wednesday, November 3, 2021 8:20 AM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] lurking Yeah, I agree. But context is Queen. When the virus is created in the lab, it's done with real stuff distilled from the soupy world. Given enough of a difference in context, the robot may not be able to re-constitute the life because the soupy world surrounding the robot doesn't have the real stuff required. Such drastic context changes could be a result of translation through space or time. E.g. trying to construct, on Mars, an organism read/serialized on earth. Or e.g. trying to construct an organism read millennia ago, millennia in the future. It's naive to talk about "science" as if any given read-out formula thereby expressed is *complete*. Science is abstraction to a large extent ... maybe not as abstracting as math, of course. And science must remain "open" precisely because any formula it expresses is suspect, perhaps incomplete. My favorite example is the magic brewing stick: https://medievalmeadandbeer.wordpress.com/2019/05/04/scandinavian-yeast-logs-yeast-rings/ It *was* scientific to lay out the magic stick as a critical element of the brewing process, only to discover later that the stick isn't the important part. On 11/2/21 2:39 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > Even if that were so, viruses have been pulled from history or tweaked and > created in the lab. So we have a design specification, and the means to > make it.One could imagine a robot fabricating the close-to-the-metal > machine too. There is a story one can write down how it is done. If there > is no story, it is not science we are talking about, it is something else. -- "Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie." ☤>$ uǝlƃ .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] effective altruism at work!
It is his behavior that can be influenced, and one way to influence his behavior is through taxation. Trying to persuade him to have different values may or may not be possible. He sort of backed away from Trump after a few interactions. That could be because Trump is crazy or because of a PR backlash, I don't know. I'd rather buy one of his dreams than watch any more of the stumbling around by the democrats. -Original Message- From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ Sent: Wednesday, November 3, 2021 8:53 AM To: FriAM Subject: Re: [FRIAM] effective altruism at work! Ha! No, Musk can't have whatever values he has. His values impinge on the world around him. And that impingement will result in a recoil counter-impingement. Our society is still liberal. So such people are allowed a lot of slack. But there is a price to pay somewhere, by someone, for such hubris. E.g. more Rationalism at work: My Experience with Leverage Research https://scribe.rip/@zoecurzi/my-experience-with-leverage-research-17e96a8e540b Common knowledge about Leverage Research 1.0 https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Kz9zMgWB5C27Pmdkh/common-knowledge-facts-about-leverage-research-1-0-1 On 11/2/21 2:39 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > And referencing your hilarious "let them eat space" remark, one can > distinguish between saving the design or prototype for human life from the > current instances of life. Democratic government is concerned with > governing, supposedly on behalf of the instances, and Musk can whatever > values he has. On 11/2/21 2:04 PM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote: > > Let them eat space! Elon Musk and the race to end world hunger > https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/nov/02/elon-musk-race-h > unger-world-food-programme-global-disaster > >> Musk’s excuse for not handing over a tiny portion of his wealth to the WFP >> is hardly original. Billionaires love to sorrowfully declare that they are >> dying to pay more tax, but they can’t bear to see their money used >> inefficiently, so, for everyone’s sake, they had better hoard it instead. >> Last week, in response to a (very short-lived) plan by the Democrats to tax >> billionaires, BlackRock CEO Larry Fink said he would happily part with more >> of his dosh if there were assurances it would be spent well. “If we could >> find solutions where the money could be directed in a proper way, I have >> more to give.” Fellow billionaire Ray Dalio also said he would willingly pay >> more tax if it accomplished “greater productivity” but sadly, he wasn’t sure >> that it did. Musk, meanwhile, insinuated that he was doing us all a favour >> by not paying more tax. “My plan is to use the money to get humanity to Mars >> and preserve the light of consciousness,” he tweeted last Thursday. A couple >> of days later he darkly warned that a billionaire tax would trickle down. >> “Eventually they run out of other people’s money, and then they come for >> you.” > > > -- "Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie." ☤>$ uǝlƃ .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] effective altruism at work!
Ha! No, Musk can't have whatever values he has. His values impinge on the world around him. And that impingement will result in a recoil counter-impingement. Our society is still liberal. So such people are allowed a lot of slack. But there is a price to pay somewhere, by someone, for such hubris. E.g. more Rationalism at work: My Experience with Leverage Research https://scribe.rip/@zoecurzi/my-experience-with-leverage-research-17e96a8e540b Common knowledge about Leverage Research 1.0 https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Kz9zMgWB5C27Pmdkh/common-knowledge-facts-about-leverage-research-1-0-1 On 11/2/21 2:39 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > And referencing your hilarious "let them eat space" remark, one can > distinguish between saving the design or prototype for human life from the > current instances of life. Democratic government is concerned with > governing, supposedly on behalf of the instances, and Musk can whatever > values he has. On 11/2/21 2:04 PM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote: > > Let them eat space! Elon Musk and the race to end world hunger > https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/nov/02/elon-musk-race-hunger-world-food-programme-global-disaster > >> Musk’s excuse for not handing over a tiny portion of his wealth to the WFP >> is hardly original. Billionaires love to sorrowfully declare that they are >> dying to pay more tax, but they can’t bear to see their money used >> inefficiently, so, for everyone’s sake, they had better hoard it instead. >> Last week, in response to a (very short-lived) plan by the Democrats to tax >> billionaires, BlackRock CEO Larry Fink said he would happily part with more >> of his dosh if there were assurances it would be spent well. “If we could >> find solutions where the money could be directed in a proper way, I have >> more to give.” Fellow billionaire Ray Dalio also said he would willingly pay >> more tax if it accomplished “greater productivity” but sadly, he wasn’t sure >> that it did. Musk, meanwhile, insinuated that he was doing us all a favour >> by not paying more tax. “My plan is to use the money to get humanity to Mars >> and preserve the light of consciousness,” he tweeted last Thursday. A couple >> of days later he darkly warned that a billionaire tax would trickle down. >> “Eventually they run out of other people’s money, and then they come for >> you.” > > > -- "Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie." ☤>$ uǝlƃ .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] lurking
Yeah, I agree. But context is Queen. When the virus is created in the lab, it's done with real stuff distilled from the soupy world. Given enough of a difference in context, the robot may not be able to re-constitute the life because the soupy world surrounding the robot doesn't have the real stuff required. Such drastic context changes could be a result of translation through space or time. E.g. trying to construct, on Mars, an organism read/serialized on earth. Or e.g. trying to construct an organism read millennia ago, millennia in the future. It's naive to talk about "science" as if any given read-out formula thereby expressed is *complete*. Science is abstraction to a large extent ... maybe not as abstracting as math, of course. And science must remain "open" precisely because any formula it expresses is suspect, perhaps incomplete. My favorite example is the magic brewing stick: https://medievalmeadandbeer.wordpress.com/2019/05/04/scandinavian-yeast-logs-yeast-rings/ It *was* scientific to lay out the magic stick as a critical element of the brewing process, only to discover later that the stick isn't the important part. On 11/2/21 2:39 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > Even if that were so, viruses have been pulled from history or tweaked and > created in the lab. So we have a design specification, and the means to > make it.One could imagine a robot fabricating the close-to-the-metal > machine too. There is a story one can write down how it is done. If there > is no story, it is not science we are talking about, it is something else. -- "Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie." ☤>$ uǝlƃ .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
