Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Gillian Densmore]

frank: ah! thanks. It seems like you've had 99 lives man.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 12:28 AM Marcus Daniels 
wrote:

> I like the idea of a large transatlantic DC power cable.   That would
> enable solar power to be distributed around the world.   It would reduce
> the need to depend on batteries for wind and solar.   Of course, you raise
> #3, so it would be a target for sabotage like with Nordstream.  It would be
> nice to think there are things just to valuable to destroy, but probably
> there are no such things.
> --
> *From:* Friam  on behalf of Sarbajit Roy <
> sroy...@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, December 16, 2022 12:01 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement
>
> What you are missing includes
> 1) Disposal of long term hazardous nuclear waste.
> 2) Problems in maintaining / decommissioning ol older nuclear
> fission plants
> 3) Examples like we are seeing Ukraine's nuclear plants caught up in a war.
>
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 2:59 AM Gillian Densmore 
> wrote:
>
> Ok so this is cool and all.
> Sigh I'll ask *that* question. We want less carbons because the planet is
> on f'n fire   . As far as I
> know humans (in the very least) accelerated climate change. Ie we made this
> mess clean it up. ok fair so far I'm following.
> So uh why not just start with fission (breeders) ? Why not also put as
> much money into matter/anti matter as well as fusion? We can make minute
> amounts of antimatter in massive collider. I'd think something who's by
> product are xrays gamma and some other stuff with a lot of energy created
> would be a massive honney pot the department of energy would pursue as well.
> I know the answer to fission (sadly) is NIMBY. (yes but it's a lot cleaner
> and safer than oil and coal I say)
> I don't know why we haven't looked at other things as well
> What I'm saying is fusion has been humans icarus wings with it being just
> arround the corner for decades. while matter/anti matter is (sort of) here.
> Fission is here. Want zero carbons? cool! so why not build out a ton of
> reactors we already can do. Or am I missing something?
>
> On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 8:31 AM Marcus Daniels 
> wrote:
>
> How ICF might evolve into a power plant:
>
>   https://firstlightfusion.com/technology/power-plant
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 14, 2022, at 7:16 AM, glen  wrote:
>
> Excellent! Thanks. I think I'll have to push this topic for another day.
> I've got a few more links from other fora I'll plop here just in case I
> only land back here if/when I pop it off the stack later:
>
>
> https://lasers.llnl.gov/news/magnetized-targets-boost-nif-implosion-performance
>
> https://spie.org/news/nuclear-fusion-nifs-hall-of-mirrors-may-solve-worlds-energy-crisis?SSO=1
>
> https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-power-may-run-fuel-even-gets-started
>
> https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/12/what-enabled-the-big-boost-in-fusion-energy-announced-this-week/
>
> On 12/13/22 16:23, Steve Smith wrote:
>
> I think DT refers simply to the remaining fraction of Deuterium/Tritium
> remaining after the reaction event (-4%) without specific accounting for
> remaining D vs T.
>
> My understanding is that D-T  fusion occurs at a lower temperature than
> D-D but that once fusion commences (starting with D-T), both D-T and D-D
> reactions occurring in similar amounts. In laser-driven ICF (as with NIF) I
> believe the ratio of D/T is nominally 50/50 though it would seem to make
> sense to have a higher T to D ratio but most references I see imply equal
> portions.   An equal number of D-D and D-T reactions would seem to consume
> D more quickly, though as that commences, the D/T ratio would go down,
> making D-T reactions (yet) more likely...   tricky business, no wonder it
> has taken decades to get to this point?
>
> The Wikipedia Entry on ICF is pretty good:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_confinement_fusion
>
> I found several popular science Articles which seem to reinforce my sense
> that this "breakthrough" is not as significant as implied:
>
>
> https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-breakthrough-nif-uh-not-really
>
> Other interesting/relevant links regarding D-T and D-D fusion...
>
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263507001_Species_separation_and_modification_of_neutron_diagnostics_in_inertial-confinement_fusion/figures?lo=1
>
> https://www.energy.gov/science/doe-explainsnuclear-fusion-reactions <
> https://www.energy.gov/science/doe-explainsnuclear-fusion-reactions>
>
> https://science.jrank.org/pages/4732/Nuclear-Fusion-D-D-D-T-reactions.html
> <
> https://science.jrank.org/pages/4732/Nuclear-Fusion-D-D-D-T-reactions.html
> >
>
> On 12/13/22 4:36 PM, glen wrote:
>
> That's why I asked. I guess I'll assume DT means both deuterium and
> tritium, not just deuterium. If you were going to track fuel use

Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[cody dooderson]

I had never heard of a transatlantic power grid. That is an interesting
idea. The sun is probably shining somewhere on the earth at any given time.
Would a lot of energy get wasted with the long distances?

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 10:46 AM Gillian Densmore 
wrote:

> frank: ah! thanks. It seems like you've had 99 lives man.
>
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 12:28 AM Marcus Daniels 
> wrote:
>
>> I like the idea of a large transatlantic DC power cable.   That would
>> enable solar power to be distributed around the world.   It would reduce
>> the need to depend on batteries for wind and solar.   Of course, you raise
>> #3, so it would be a target for sabotage like with Nordstream.  It would be
>> nice to think there are things just to valuable to destroy, but probably
>> there are no such things.
>> --
>> *From:* Friam  on behalf of Sarbajit Roy <
>> sroy...@gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Friday, December 16, 2022 12:01 AM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>> friam@redfish.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement
>>
>> What you are missing includes
>> 1) Disposal of long term hazardous nuclear waste.
>> 2) Problems in maintaining / decommissioning ol older nuclear
>> fission plants
>> 3) Examples like we are seeing Ukraine's nuclear plants caught up in a
>> war.
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 2:59 AM Gillian Densmore 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Ok so this is cool and all.
>> Sigh I'll ask *that* question. We want less carbons because the planet
>> is on f'n fire   . As far
>> as I know humans (in the very least) accelerated climate change. Ie we made
>> this mess clean it up. ok fair so far I'm following.
>> So uh why not just start with fission (breeders) ? Why not also put as
>> much money into matter/anti matter as well as fusion? We can make minute
>> amounts of antimatter in massive collider. I'd think something who's by
>> product are xrays gamma and some other stuff with a lot of energy created
>> would be a massive honney pot the department of energy would pursue as well.
>> I know the answer to fission (sadly) is NIMBY. (yes but it's a lot
>> cleaner and safer than oil and coal I say)
>> I don't know why we haven't looked at other things as well
>> What I'm saying is fusion has been humans icarus wings with it being just
>> arround the corner for decades. while matter/anti matter is (sort of) here.
>> Fission is here. Want zero carbons? cool! so why not build out a ton of
>> reactors we already can do. Or am I missing something?
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 8:31 AM Marcus Daniels 
>> wrote:
>>
>> How ICF might evolve into a power plant:
>>
>>   https://firstlightfusion.com/technology/power-plant
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Dec 14, 2022, at 7:16 AM, glen  wrote:
>>
>> Excellent! Thanks. I think I'll have to push this topic for another
>> day. I've got a few more links from other fora I'll plop here just in case
>> I only land back here if/when I pop it off the stack later:
>>
>>
>> https://lasers.llnl.gov/news/magnetized-targets-boost-nif-implosion-performance
>>
>> https://spie.org/news/nuclear-fusion-nifs-hall-of-mirrors-may-solve-worlds-energy-crisis?SSO=1
>>
>> https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-power-may-run-fuel-even-gets-started
>>
>> https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/12/what-enabled-the-big-boost-in-fusion-energy-announced-this-week/
>>
>> On 12/13/22 16:23, Steve Smith wrote:
>>
>> I think DT refers simply to the remaining fraction of Deuterium/Tritium
>> remaining after the reaction event (-4%) without specific accounting for
>> remaining D vs T.
>>
>> My understanding is that D-T  fusion occurs at a lower temperature than
>> D-D but that once fusion commences (starting with D-T), both D-T and D-D
>> reactions occurring in similar amounts. In laser-driven ICF (as with NIF) I
>> believe the ratio of D/T is nominally 50/50 though it would seem to make
>> sense to have a higher T to D ratio but most references I see imply equal
>> portions.   An equal number of D-D and D-T reactions would seem to consume
>> D more quickly, though as that commences, the D/T ratio would go down,
>> making D-T reactions (yet) more likely...   tricky business, no wonder it
>> has taken decades to get to this point?
>>
>> The Wikipedia Entry on ICF is pretty good:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_confinement_fusion
>>
>> I found several popular science Articles which seem to reinforce my sense
>> that this "breakthrough" is not as significant as implied:
>>
>>
>> https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-breakthrough-nif-uh-not-really
>>
>> Other interesting/relevant links regarding D-T and D-D fusion...
>>
>>
>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263507001_Species_separation_and_modification_of_neutron_diagnostics_in_inertial-confinement_fusion/figures?lo=1
>>
>> https://www.energy.gov/science/doe-explainsnuclear-fusion-reactions <
>> https://www.energy.gov/science/doe-e

Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Merle Lefkoff]

This fusion video should be the standard for how to present every single
technological innovation, every so-called "renewable energy" device that is
too little, too late, and most importantly distracts us from thinking
seriously about how we shall survive climate catastrophe and continue to
live a flourishing life on earth.  Thank you Carl--I think you sent this
link to the group.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 10:57 AM cody dooderson  wrote:

> I had never heard of a transatlantic power grid. That is an interesting
> idea. The sun is probably shining somewhere on the earth at any given time.
> Would a lot of energy get wasted with the long distances?
>
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 10:46 AM Gillian Densmore 
> wrote:
>
>> frank: ah! thanks. It seems like you've had 99 lives man.
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 12:28 AM Marcus Daniels 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I like the idea of a large transatlantic DC power cable.   That would
>>> enable solar power to be distributed around the world.   It would reduce
>>> the need to depend on batteries for wind and solar.   Of course, you raise
>>> #3, so it would be a target for sabotage like with Nordstream.  It would be
>>> nice to think there are things just to valuable to destroy, but probably
>>> there are no such things.
>>> --
>>> *From:* Friam  on behalf of Sarbajit Roy <
>>> sroy...@gmail.com>
>>> *Sent:* Friday, December 16, 2022 12:01 AM
>>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>>> friam@redfish.com>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement
>>>
>>> What you are missing includes
>>> 1) Disposal of long term hazardous nuclear waste.
>>> 2) Problems in maintaining / decommissioning ol older nuclear
>>> fission plants
>>> 3) Examples like we are seeing Ukraine's nuclear plants caught up in a
>>> war.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 2:59 AM Gillian Densmore 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Ok so this is cool and all.
>>> Sigh I'll ask *that* question. We want less carbons because the planet
>>> is on f'n fire   . As far
>>> as I know humans (in the very least) accelerated climate change. Ie we made
>>> this mess clean it up. ok fair so far I'm following.
>>> So uh why not just start with fission (breeders) ? Why not also put as
>>> much money into matter/anti matter as well as fusion? We can make minute
>>> amounts of antimatter in massive collider. I'd think something who's by
>>> product are xrays gamma and some other stuff with a lot of energy created
>>> would be a massive honney pot the department of energy would pursue as well.
>>> I know the answer to fission (sadly) is NIMBY. (yes but it's a lot
>>> cleaner and safer than oil and coal I say)
>>> I don't know why we haven't looked at other things as well
>>> What I'm saying is fusion has been humans icarus wings with it being
>>> just arround the corner for decades. while matter/anti matter is (sort of)
>>> here. Fission is here. Want zero carbons? cool! so why not build out a ton
>>> of reactors we already can do. Or am I missing something?
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 8:31 AM Marcus Daniels 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> How ICF might evolve into a power plant:
>>>
>>>   https://firstlightfusion.com/technology/power-plant
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Dec 14, 2022, at 7:16 AM, glen  wrote:
>>>
>>> Excellent! Thanks. I think I'll have to push this topic for another
>>> day. I've got a few more links from other fora I'll plop here just in case
>>> I only land back here if/when I pop it off the stack later:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://lasers.llnl.gov/news/magnetized-targets-boost-nif-implosion-performance
>>>
>>> https://spie.org/news/nuclear-fusion-nifs-hall-of-mirrors-may-solve-worlds-energy-crisis?SSO=1
>>>
>>> https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-power-may-run-fuel-even-gets-started
>>>
>>> https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/12/what-enabled-the-big-boost-in-fusion-energy-announced-this-week/
>>>
>>> On 12/13/22 16:23, Steve Smith wrote:
>>>
>>> I think DT refers simply to the remaining fraction of Deuterium/Tritium
>>> remaining after the reaction event (-4%) without specific accounting for
>>> remaining D vs T.
>>>
>>> My understanding is that D-T  fusion occurs at a lower temperature than
>>> D-D but that once fusion commences (starting with D-T), both D-T and D-D
>>> reactions occurring in similar amounts. In laser-driven ICF (as with NIF) I
>>> believe the ratio of D/T is nominally 50/50 though it would seem to make
>>> sense to have a higher T to D ratio but most references I see imply equal
>>> portions.   An equal number of D-D and D-T reactions would seem to consume
>>> D more quickly, though as that commences, the D/T ratio would go down,
>>> making D-T reactions (yet) more likely...   tricky business, no wonder it
>>> has taken decades to get to this point?
>>>
>>> The Wikipedia Entry on ICF is pretty good:
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_confinement_fusion
>>>
>>> I found several popular sci

Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Steve Smith]

On 12/16/22 10:56 AM, cody dooderson wrote:
I had never heard of a transatlantic power grid. That is an 
interesting idea. The sun is probably shining somewhere on the earth 
at any given time. Would a lot of energy get wasted with the long 
distances?



Nikola Tesla is rolling in his magnetically shielded grave hearing all 
this wasteful and under-inspired talk of long-range power transmission 
 
via wires?


my SF addled brain conjures a snow-piercer 
 style earth-circumscribing 
rail-line... the pylons can be driven so deep into the earth's crust 
that they are tapped into the earth's inner heat, the rails can be the 
DC conduit Marcus suggests.   There can be as many windmills and tidal 
turbines placed along the line as one feels they 
need/can-afford/stand-to-see as well as a PV/thermo solar continuous 
collector/shade-roof which can also enhance gradient by radiating into 
the  (2.73-273 deg K 
) 
sky at night.   The Snowpiercer rail-cars can move (make them pneumatic 
or evacuated-ballistic (~18mi/sec?)) physical goods and materials 
continuously...   (thank you Elon Musk). Mount a few Spinlaunch 
 units on train units and squirt things 
into orbit at-will?


Wait, maybe it can become a strip-city modeled on SA's "Line" 
... at 100 miles 
long and 9million population, the circumferential "line" would be 240 
times as long and have a carrying capacity of >2 Billion based on their 
predicted precedent.    Place three of these orthogonal to one another 
like an armillary sphere 
 and we are up to 6B?   
A modest bump in scale (cube root of 1.5) could accommodate 9B!   A few 
of us (DaveW, GaryS, ... myself)  rebellious non-urban renegades could 
live in the remaining landscape NOT covered by these 3 circumscribing 
strip cities and live our lives in the spirit of Sean Connery's 
character Zed in Zardoz !


Heck, just a nice precursor to Larry Niven's Ringworld 
   
tell Musk he can keep his claims to Mars... at least until the rest of 
us need the mass to integrate into a proper Dyson Sphere 
...




On Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 10:46 AM Gillian Densmore 
 wrote:


frank: ah! thanks. It seems like you've had 99 lives man.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 12:28 AM Marcus Daniels
 wrote:

I like the idea of a large transatlantic DC power cable.  
That would enable solar power to be distributed around the
world.   It would reduce the need to depend on batteries for
wind and solar.   Of course, you raise #3, so it would be a
target for sabotage like with Nordstream.  It would be nice to
think there are things just to valuable to destroy, but
probably there are no such things.

*From:* Friam  on behalf of
Sarbajit Roy 
*Sent:* Friday, December 16, 2022 12:01 AM
*To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group

*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement
What you are missing includes
1) Disposal of long term hazardous nuclear waste.
2) Problems in maintaining / decommissioning ol older nuclear
fission plants
3) Examples like we are seeing Ukraine's nuclear plants caught
up in a war.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 2:59 AM Gillian Densmore
 wrote:

Ok so this is cool and all.
Sigh I'll ask /that/ question. We want less carbons
because the planet is on f'n fire
  . As far as
I know humans (in the very least) accelerated climate
change. Ie we made this mess clean it up. ok fair so far
I'm following.
So uh why not just start with fission (breeders) ? Why not
also put as much money into matter/anti matter as well as
fusion? We can make minute amounts of antimatter in
massive collider. I'd think something who's by product are
xrays gamma and some other stuff with a lot of energy
created would be a massive honney pot the department of
energy would pursue as well.
I know the answer to fission (sadly) is 

Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Marcus Daniels]

"This fusion video should be the standard for how to present every single 
technological innovation, every so-called "renewable energy" device that is too 
little, too late, and most importantly distracts us from thinking seriously 
about how we shall survive climate catastrophe and continue to live a 
flourishing life on earth."

After spending the last few months arguing with the locals in Berkeley about 
installing a bike lane, I have come to the conclusion there won't be 
flourishing life on earth.  (Well, ok, I believed that anyway.)  Oddly enough 
the obstacle in that case is one natural produce store that people must visit 
by driving their 200 hp car ½ of a mile.  It is always some lifestyle thing 
that dooms us.  Now imagine trying to connect the state with high-speed rail 
with hundreds of constituencies like that.  We should pay our politicians more.

I do see these in the area, though:

https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/transportation/rivian-amazon-van-expands-to-100-us-cities-by-end-of-2022
[https://assets.aboutamazon.com/dims4/default/496a800/2147483647/strip/true/crop/2000x1000+0+63/resize/1200x600!/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famazon-blogs-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2F4d%2F42%2F70dec02640579454676e5159b4f8%2Frivian-hero-2000x1126-2.jpg]
Amazon’s new electric vans will be making deliveries in over 100 U.S. cities 
this holiday season - 
aboutamazon.com
Amazon is ready for its first-ever holiday season with its fleet of custom 
electric delivery vehicles designed by Rivian. Hundreds of the vehicles rolled 
out this summer in more than a dozen cities, including Baltimore, Chicago, 
Dallas, Kansas City, Nashville, Phoenix, San Diego, Seattle, and St. Louis.
www.aboutamazon.com


Marcus

From: Friam  on behalf of Merle Lefkoff 

Sent: Friday, December 16, 2022 11:26 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

This fusion video should be the standard for how to present every single 
technological innovation, every so-called "renewable energy" device that is too 
little, too late, and most importantly distracts us from thinking seriously 
about how we shall survive climate catastrophe and continue to live a 
flourishing life on earth.  Thank you Carl--I think you sent this link to the 
group.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 10:57 AM cody dooderson 
mailto:d00d3r...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I had never heard of a transatlantic power grid. That is an interesting idea. 
The sun is probably shining somewhere on the earth at any given time. Would a 
lot of energy get wasted with the long distances?

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 10:46 AM Gillian Densmore 
mailto:gil.densm...@gmail.com>> wrote:
frank: ah! thanks. It seems like you've had 99 lives man.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 12:28 AM Marcus Daniels 
mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
I like the idea of a large transatlantic DC power cable.   That would enable 
solar power to be distributed around the world.   It would reduce the need to 
depend on batteries for wind and solar.   Of course, you raise #3, so it would 
be a target for sabotage like with Nordstream.  It would be nice to think there 
are things just to valuable to destroy, but probably there are no such things.

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> on 
behalf of Sarbajit Roy mailto:sroy...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2022 12:01 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

What you are missing includes
1) Disposal of long term hazardous nuclear waste.
2) Problems in maintaining / decommissioning ol older nuclear fission plants
3) Examples like we are seeing Ukraine's nuclear plants caught up in a war.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 2:59 AM Gillian Densmore 
mailto:gil.densm...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Ok so this is cool and all.
Sigh I'll ask that question. We want less carbons because the planet is on f'n 
fire  . As far as I know humans 
(in the very least) accelerated climate change. Ie we made this mess clean it 
up. ok fair so far I'm following.
So uh why not just start with fission (breeders) ? Why not also put as much 
money into matter/anti matter as well as fusion? We can make minute amounts of 
antimatter in massive collider. I'd think something who's by product are xrays 
gamma and some other stuff with a lot of energy created would be a massive 
honney pot the department of energy would pursue as well.
I know the answer to fission (sadly) is NIMBY. (yes but it's a lot cleaner and 
safer than oil and coal I say)
I don't know why we haven't looked at other things as well
What I'm saying is fusion ha

Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Marcus Daniels]

I do like the microwave energy transmission idea.  I seem to recall that 
https://www.quaise.energy got their first test device from the Air Force in 
Albuquerque that was experimenting with the devices for crowd control.   Think 
of it!   5G that has a high-power beam forming mode that could disable 
pedestrians at any location!

https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1169951
Deep Geothermal Drilling Using Millimeter Wave Technology (Final Technical 
Research Report) (Technical Report) | OSTI.GOV - Office of Scientific and 
Technical Information
Abstract. Conventional drilling methods are very mature, but still have 
difficulty drilling through very deep,very hard and hot rocks for geothermal, 
nuclear waste entombment and oil and gas applications.This project demonstrated 
the capabilities of utilizing only high energy beams to drill such 
rocks,commonly called ‘Direct Energy Drilling’, which has been the dream of 
industry since the ...
www.osti.gov

[https://d19xrwp2bu8dt3.cloudfront.net/general/Quaise-link-img1.png]
Quaise Energy
Quaise is an energy company unlocking geothermal energy for the world 
population through millimeter wave drilling technology.
www.quaise.energy


From: Friam  on behalf of Steve Smith 

Sent: Friday, December 16, 2022 11:38 AM
To: friam@redfish.com 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement


On 12/16/22 10:56 AM, cody dooderson wrote:
I had never heard of a transatlantic power grid. That is an interesting idea. 
The sun is probably shining somewhere on the earth at any given time. Would a 
lot of energy get wasted with the long distances?


Nikola Tesla is rolling in his magnetically shielded grave hearing all this 
wasteful and under-inspired talk of long-range power 
transmission
 via wires?

my SF addled brain conjures a 
snow-piercer style earth-circumscribing 
rail-line... the pylons can be driven so deep into the earth's crust that they 
are tapped into the earth's inner heat, the rails can be the DC conduit Marcus 
suggests.   There can be as many windmills and tidal turbines placed along the 
line as one feels they need/can-afford/stand-to-see as well as a PV/thermo 
solar continuous collector/shade-roof which can also enhance gradient by 
radiating into the  (2.73-273 deg 
K)
 sky at night.   The Snowpiercer rail-cars can move (make them pneumatic or 
evacuated-ballistic (~18mi/sec?)) physical goods and materials continuously...  
 (thank you Elon Musk).  Mount a few Spinlaunch 
units on train units and squirt things into orbit at-will?

Wait, maybe it can become a strip-city modeled on SA's 
"Line"... at 100 miles 
long and 9million population, the circumferential "line" would be 240 times as 
long and have a carrying capacity of >2 Billion based on their predicted 
precedent.Place three of these orthogonal to one another like an armillary 
sphere and we are up to 6B?   A 
modest bump in scale (cube root of 1.5) could accommodate 9B!   A few of us 
(DaveW, GaryS, ... myself)  rebellious non-urban renegades could live in the 
remaining landscape NOT covered by these 3 circumscribing strip cities and live 
our lives in the spirit of Sean Connery's character Zed in 
Zardoz!

Heck, just a nice precursor to Larry Niven's 
Ringworld
   tell Musk he can keep his claims to Mars... at least until the rest of us 
need the mass to integrate into a proper Dyson 
Sphere...

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 10:46 AM Gillian Densmore 
mailto:gil.densm...@gmail.com>> wrote:
frank: ah! thanks. It seems like you've had 99 lives man.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 12:28 AM Marcus Daniels 
mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
I like the idea of a large transatlantic DC power cable.   That would enable 
solar power to be distributed around the world.   It would reduce the need to 
depend on batteries for wind and solar.   Of course, you raise #3, so it would 
be a target for sabotage like with Nordstream.  It would be nice to think there 
are things just to valuable to destroy, but probably there are no such things.

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> on 
behalf of Sarbajit Roy mail

Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Marcus Daniels]

Cody wrote:

"I had never heard of a transatlantic power grid. That is an interesting idea. 
The sun is probably shining somewhere on the earth at any given time. Would a 
lot of energy get wasted with the long distances?"

Ideally, high temperature superconductors..

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1177666


From: Friam  on behalf of cody dooderson 

Sent: Friday, December 16, 2022 10:56 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

I had never heard of a transatlantic power grid. That is an interesting idea. 
The sun is probably shining somewhere on the earth at any given time. Would a 
lot of energy get wasted with the long distances?

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 10:46 AM Gillian Densmore 
mailto:gil.densm...@gmail.com>> wrote:
frank: ah! thanks. It seems like you've had 99 lives man.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 12:28 AM Marcus Daniels 
mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
I like the idea of a large transatlantic DC power cable.   That would enable 
solar power to be distributed around the world.   It would reduce the need to 
depend on batteries for wind and solar.   Of course, you raise #3, so it would 
be a target for sabotage like with Nordstream.  It would be nice to think there 
are things just to valuable to destroy, but probably there are no such things.

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> on 
behalf of Sarbajit Roy mailto:sroy...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2022 12:01 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

What you are missing includes
1) Disposal of long term hazardous nuclear waste.
2) Problems in maintaining / decommissioning ol older nuclear fission plants
3) Examples like we are seeing Ukraine's nuclear plants caught up in a war.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 2:59 AM Gillian Densmore 
mailto:gil.densm...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Ok so this is cool and all.
Sigh I'll ask that question. We want less carbons because the planet is on f'n 
fire  . As far as I know humans 
(in the very least) accelerated climate change. Ie we made this mess clean it 
up. ok fair so far I'm following.
So uh why not just start with fission (breeders) ? Why not also put as much 
money into matter/anti matter as well as fusion? We can make minute amounts of 
antimatter in massive collider. I'd think something who's by product are xrays 
gamma and some other stuff with a lot of energy created would be a massive 
honney pot the department of energy would pursue as well.
I know the answer to fission (sadly) is NIMBY. (yes but it's a lot cleaner and 
safer than oil and coal I say)
I don't know why we haven't looked at other things as well
What I'm saying is fusion has been humans icarus wings with it being just 
arround the corner for decades. while matter/anti matter is (sort of) here. 
Fission is here. Want zero carbons? cool! so why not build out a ton of 
reactors we already can do. Or am I missing something?

On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 8:31 AM Marcus Daniels 
mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
How ICF might evolve into a power plant:

  https://firstlightfusion.com/technology/power-plant

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 14, 2022, at 7:16 AM, glen 
mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Excellent! Thanks. I think I'll have to push this topic for another day. I've 
got a few more links from other fora I'll plop here just in case I only land 
back here if/when I pop it off the stack later:

https://lasers.llnl.gov/news/magnetized-targets-boost-nif-implosion-performance
https://spie.org/news/nuclear-fusion-nifs-hall-of-mirrors-may-solve-worlds-energy-crisis?SSO=1
https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-power-may-run-fuel-even-gets-started
https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/12/what-enabled-the-big-boost-in-fusion-energy-announced-this-week/

On 12/13/22 16:23, Steve Smith wrote:
I think DT refers simply to the remaining fraction of Deuterium/Tritium 
remaining after the reaction event (-4%) without specific accounting for 
remaining D vs T.
My understanding is that D-T  fusion occurs at a lower temperature than D-D but 
that once fusion commences (starting with D-T), both D-T and D-D reactions 
occurring in similar amounts. In laser-driven ICF (as with NIF) I believe the 
ratio of D/T is nominally 50/50 though it would seem to make sense to have a 
higher T to D ratio but most references I see imply equal portions.   An equal 
number of D-D and D-T reactions would seem to consume D more quickly, though as 
that commences, the D/T ratio would go down, making D-T reactions (yet) more 
likely...   tricky business, no wonder it has taken decades to get to this 
point?
The Wikipedia Entry on ICF is pretty good: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_confinement_fusion
I found several popular science Articles which seem to rein

Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[David Eric Smith]

I doubt the answer would be interesting, but one could give it as a Fermi 
problem to an undergraduate geology class (who don’t do Fermi problems; but the 
physicists won’t know any geology).

Terawatt-scale extraction of geothermal energy will increase the effective 
conduction of heat from the bottom of the mantle (directly or indirectly) to 
the surface, increasing the rate at which the solid inner core grows by 
freezing of the molten outer core.

How much, for how long, can we extract, until the inner core grows enough that 
the geodynamo shuts down, ending the Earth’s magnetic field, the van Allen 
belts etc., and exposing the atmosphere directly to spalling by protons from 
the solar wind?  

And you thought the shutdown of the north-atlantic thermohaline was a problem!

> On Dec 16, 2022, at 2:38 PM, Marcus Daniels  wrote:
> 
> I do like the microwave energy transmission idea.  I seem to recall that 
> https://www.quaise.energy 
> 
>  got their first test device from the Air Force in Albuquerque that was 
> experimenting with the devices for crowd control.   Think of it!   5G that 
> has a high-power beam forming mode that could disable pedestrians at any 
> location! 
> 
> https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1169951 
> 
> Deep Geothermal Drilling Using Millimeter Wave Technology (Final Technical 
> Research Report) (Technical Report) | OSTI.GOV - Office of Scientific and 
> Technical Information 
> 
> Abstract. Conventional drilling methods are very mature, but still have 
> difficulty drilling through very deep,very hard and hot rocks for geothermal, 
> nuclear waste entombment and oil and gas applications.This project 
> demonstrated the capabilities of utilizing only high energy beams to drill 
> such rocks,commonly called ‘Direct Energy Drilling’, which has been the dream 
> of industry since the ...
> www.osti.gov 
> 
>  
> 
>  
> Quaise Energy 
> 
> Quaise is an energy company unlocking geothermal energy for the world 
> population through millimeter wave drilling technology.
> www.quaise.energy 
> 
> From: Friam  on behalf of Steve Smith 
> 
> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2022 11:38 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com 
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement
>  
> 
> On 12/16/22 10:56 AM, cody dooderson wrote:
>> I had never heard of a transatlantic power grid. That is an interesting 
>> idea. The sun is probably shining somewhere on the earth at any given time. 
>> Would a lot of energy get wasted with the long distances? 
> 
> Nikola Tesla is rolling in his magnetically shielded grave hearing all this 
> wasteful and under-inspired talk of long-range power transmission 
> 
>  via wires?
> my SF addled brain conjures a snow-piercer 
> 
>  style earth-circumscribing rail-line... the pylons can be driven so deep 
> into the earth's crust that they are tapped into the earth's inner heat, the 
> rails can be the DC conduit Marcus

Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Gillian Densmore]

didn't a famous aliens planet explode because they used the core of the
planet for energy use? something about corrupted kryptonian being his
weakness?

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 1:21 PM David Eric Smith 
wrote:

> I doubt the answer would be interesting, but one could give it as a Fermi
> problem to an undergraduate geology class (who don’t do Fermi problems; but
> the physicists won’t know any geology).
>
> Terawatt-scale extraction of geothermal energy will increase the effective
> conduction of heat from the bottom of the mantle (directly or indirectly)
> to the surface, increasing the rate at which the solid inner core grows by
> freezing of the molten outer core.
>
> How much, for how long, can we extract, until the inner core grows enough
> that the geodynamo shuts down, ending the Earth’s magnetic field, the van
> Allen belts etc., and exposing the atmosphere directly to spalling by
> protons from the solar wind?
>
> And you thought the shutdown of the north-atlantic thermohaline was a
> problem!
>
> On Dec 16, 2022, at 2:38 PM, Marcus Daniels  wrote:
>
> I do like the microwave energy transmission idea.  I seem to recall that
> https://www.quaise.energy
> 
>  got
> their first test device from the Air Force in Albuquerque that was
> experimenting with the devices for crowd control.   Think of it!   5G that
> has a high-power beam forming mode that could disable pedestrians at any
> location!
>
> https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1169951
> 
> Deep Geothermal Drilling Using Millimeter Wave Technology (Final Technical
> Research Report) (Technical Report) | OSTI.GOV - Office of Scientific and
> Technical Information
> 
> Abstract. Conventional drilling methods are very mature, but still have
> difficulty drilling through very deep,very hard and hot rocks for
> geothermal, nuclear waste entombment and oil and gas applications.This
> project demonstrated the capabilities of utilizing only high energy beams
> to drill such rocks,commonly called ‘Direct Energy Drilling’, which has
> been the dream of industry since the ...
> www.osti.gov
> 
>
>
> 
> Quaise Energy
> 
> Quaise is an energy company unlocking geothermal energy for the world
> population through millimeter wave drilling technology.
> www.quaise.energy
> 
>
> --
> *From:* Friam  on behalf of Steve Smith <
> sasm...@swcp.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, December 16, 2022 11:38 AM
> *To:* friam@redfish.com 
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement
>
>
> On 12/16/22 10:56 AM, cody dooderson wrote:
>
> I had never heard of a transatlantic power grid. That is an interesting
> idea. The sun is probably shining somewhere on the earth at any given time.
> Would a lot of energy get wasted with the long distances?
>
>
> Nikola Tesla is rolling in his magnetically shielded grave hearing all
> this wasteful and under-inspired talk of long-range power transmission
> 
> via wires?
>
> my SF addled brain conjures a snow-piercer
> 

Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Gary Schiltz]

We humans tend to think of such long-term thinking as silly, frivolous mind
exercises for the elite educated. I would applaud such thinking. But
western civilization has trouble with seven generations, let alone seven
million generations.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 3:21 PM David Eric Smith 
wrote:

> I doubt the answer would be interesting, but one could give it as a Fermi
> problem to an undergraduate geology class (who don’t do Fermi problems; but
> the physicists won’t know any geology).
> ...
> How much, for how long, can we extract, until the inner core grows enough
> that the geodynamo shuts down, ending the Earth’s magnetic field, the van
> Allen belts etc., and exposing the atmosphere directly to spalling by
> protons from the solar wind?
>
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Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Marcus Daniels]

Yikes!  So we must develop an artificial magnetosphere for Mars so that we can 
do it on Earth too?

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 16, 2022, at 3:03 PM, Gary Schiltz  wrote:


We humans tend to think of such long-term thinking as silly, frivolous mind 
exercises for the elite educated. I would applaud such thinking. But western 
civilization has trouble with seven generations, let alone seven million 
generations.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 3:21 PM David Eric Smith 
mailto:desm...@santafe.edu>> wrote:
I doubt the answer would be interesting, but one could give it as a Fermi 
problem to an undergraduate geology class (who don’t do Fermi problems; but the 
physicists won’t know any geology).
...
How much, for how long, can we extract, until the inner core grows enough that 
the geodynamo shuts down, ending the Earth’s magnetic field, the van Allen 
belts etc., and exposing the atmosphere directly to spalling by protons from 
the solar wind?
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
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[FRIAM] Who wrote the essay?

[Tom Johnson]

https://www.facebook.com/5722102/posts/pfbid0D8i4GuCUJeRsDJjM1JJtfkDYDMCb7Y7RdK2EoyVhRuctg9z2fhvpo1bB2WAxGBzcl/?sfnsn=mo&mibextid=ijjfgs

===
Tom Johnson
Inst. for Analytic Journalism
Santa Fe, New Mexico
505-577-6482
===
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Re: [FRIAM] Who wrote the essay?

[Stephen Guerin]

Tom,

What do you think? Was this PhD proposal written by a person or ChatGPT?

The Metaphysics and Ethics of Copyright
>
> Abstract
>
> My project is motivated by a host of problems that arise in the literature
> of U.S. copyright law, including legal decisions and established doctrines
> that are alternatively arbitrary, counterintuitive, and contradictory. The
> central argument of my dissertation is that these problems arise from a
> failure in copyright law to recognize the nature of its objects, authored
> works, and that a coherent and stable approach to copyright must be built
> upon such an understanding. To this end, I outline a multidimensional
> ontology of authored works suitable for grounding the central principles
> and practical application of copyright.
>
> Centrally, I contend, a reasonable understanding of copyright depends on
> grasping four dimensions of the nature of authored works:
>
>1. their atomic dimension, including the parts of which they are
>composed, and the selection and arrangement of these parts;
>2. their causal dimension, including their contexts of creation and
>instantiation, and the weak and strong historical links that connect a
>given work to others (building here on the work of Jerrold Levinson);
>3. their abstract dimension, in particular, pace Nelson Goodman,
>Jerrold Levinson, and Mark Sagoff, that all such works are best understood
>as type/token entities capable of multiple instantiation; and
>4. their categorial dimension, drawing on the work of Kendall Walton,
>such that multiple works belonging to mutually-exclusive categories can be
>embodied in the same physical object.
>
> On an understanding of these factors, I establish conditions for the
> copyrightability of authored works, for the infringement of these
> copyrights, and for the creation of derivative works.
>
> Finally, I consider the right of copyright. First showing how the
> strongest contenders for grounding this right—the Lockean and
> Constitutional approaches—fail to align with our understanding of authored
> works, I proceed to sketch an alternative approach to grounding the right
> of copyright—a right based on the author's creativity as realized in the
> authored work—building on the ontological account outlined above.
>



___
stephen.gue...@simtable.com 
CEO, https://www.simtable.com 
1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505
office: (505)995-0206 mobile: (505)577-5828


On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 11:08 PM Tom Johnson  wrote:

>
> https://www.facebook.com/5722102/posts/pfbid0D8i4GuCUJeRsDJjM1JJtfkDYDMCb7Y7RdK2EoyVhRuctg9z2fhvpo1bB2WAxGBzcl/?sfnsn=mo&mibextid=ijjfgs
>
> ===
> Tom Johnson
> Inst. for Analytic Journalism
> Santa Fe, New Mexico
> 505-577-6482
> ===
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