date:20230118

Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW

2023-01-18 Thread Steve Smith

That might qualify as a DDOS attack.
I'm suspecting they already had my "number" when they
responded to my attempt to sign up with "sorry, too busy, try back
later"...

On Jan 18, 2023, at 7:03 AM, Steve Smith wrote:

I suppose pouring all of the FriAM traffic into (even my own bloviations) a
chatbot might be a bit usurious (the fool's errand of a fool errant)?

On 1/17/23 2:37 PM, glen wrote:

You might try using the OpenAI API directly. It takes some work, but not much.

https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fopenai.com%2fapi%2f&c=E,1,HJ318n4srAACDIyWEzfPOzvMVtqgSqwLdvAizjLkkb1uDy5X4kPvoq_dYLKkkGFIA3DZ_FVdqrBvZUIyd5cGsQuJLe7SGEwu5RiJtC6GcsSxUoVp_V41JGDy&typo=1

Or you could sign up for this:

https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/blog/general-availability-of-azure-openai-service-expands-access-to-large-advanced-ai-models-with-added-enterprise-benefits/

I would hook you up to my Slack bot that queries GPT3 for every channel
message. But that might get expensive with a verbose person like you! 8^D I can
imagine some veerrryyy long prompts.

On 1/17/23 12:57, Steve Smith wrote:

On 1/17/23 1:08 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

Dogs have about 500 million neurons in their cortex. Neurons have about 7,000
synaptic connections, so I think my dog is a lot smarter than a billion
parameter LLM. :-)

And I bet (s)he channels *at least* one FriAM member's affect pretty well also!

My 9 month old golden-doodle does as good of a job at that (I won't name names)
as my (now deceased 11 year old Akita and my 9 year old chocolate dobie mix bot
did) but nobody here really demonstrates the basic nature of either my 9 month
old tabby or her 20 year old black-mouser predecessor.There is very little
overlap.

The jays and the woodpeckers and the finches and towhees and sparrows and
nuthatches and robins and the mating pair of doves and the several ravens and
the (courting?) pair of owls (that I only hear hooting to one another in the
night) and the lone (that I see) hawk and the lone blue heron (very more
occasionally) and the flock(lets) of geese migrating down the rio-grande
flyway... their aggregate neural complexity is only multiplicative (order
100-1000x) that of any given beast... but somehow their interactions (this is
without the half-dozen species of rodentia and leporidae and racoons and
insects and worms and ) would seem to have a more combinatorial network of
relations?

I tried signing up to try chatGPT for myself (thanks to Glen's Nick Cave blog-link) and
was denied because "too busy, try back later" and realized that it had become a
locus for (first world) humans to express and combine their greatest hopes and worse
fears in a single place.

This seems like a higher-order training set? Not just the intersection of all things "worth
saying" but somehow filtered/diffracted through "the things (some) people are interested
in in particular"...

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Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW

2023-01-18 Thread Marcus Daniels

Isn’t this expected from Effective Altruism?   There will be people sacrificed..

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2023 2:09 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW

Sadly, there are some hidden elements to all that techno-optimism. E.g.
https://nitter.cz/billyperrigo/status/1615682180201447425#m

[https://nitter.cz/pic/media%2FFmwNndiWIAIYYtf.png%3Fname%3Dsmall]

sounds like the "woke mob" is interfering with patriotic bestial pedophiles who 
are just exercising their first, second, maybe fifth and just in case, the 
ninth amendment rights? ...

Every time I respond to a Captcha challenge, I feel as if I'm being conscripted 
to help train an image recognition ML model.   And do we know how (not if) 
OpenAI, et alii are using *our questions* to train a new (subset of) model?

On 1/18/23 00:40, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:

I totally agree that realizable behavior is what matters.

The elephant in the room is whether AI (and robotics of course) will (not to 
replace but to) be able to do better than humans in all respects, including 
come up with creative solutions to not only the world's most pressing problems 
but also small creative things like writing poems, and then to do the mental 
and physical tasks required to provide goods and services to all in the world,

Sam Altman said there are two things that will shape our future; intelligence 
and energy. If we have real abundant intelligence and energy, the world will be 
very different indeed.

To quote Sam Altmen at 
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms

  :

"intelligence and energy have been the fundamental limiters towards most things 
we want. A future where these are not the limiting reagents will be radically 
different, and can be amazingly better."

On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 at 03:06, Marcus Daniels 
mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com> 
> wrote:

Definitions are all fine and good, but realizable behavior is what matters. 
  Analog computers will have imperfect behavior, and there will be leakage 
between components.   A large network of transistors or neurons are 
sufficiently similar for my purposes.   The unrolling would be inside a skull, 
so somewhat isolated from interference.

-Original Message-
From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> 
> On Behalf 
Of glen
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2023 2:11 PM
To: friam@redfish.com 

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW

I don't quite grok that. A crisp definition of recursion implies no 
interaction with the outside world, right? If you can tolerate the ambiguity in 
that statement, the artifacts laying about from an unrolled recursion might be 
seen and used by outsiders. That's not to say a trespasser can't have some 
sophisticated intrusion technique. But unrolled seems more "open" to family, 
friends, and the occasional acquaintance.

On 1/17/23 13:37, Marcus Daniels wrote:
 > I probably didn't pay enough attention to the thread some time ago on 
serialization, but to me recursion is hard to distinguish from an unrolling of 
recursion.

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Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW

2023-01-18 Thread Steve Smith

Sadly, there are some hidden elements to all that techno-optimism. E.g.
https://nitter.cz/billyperrigo/status/1615682180201447425#m

sounds like the "woke mob" is interfering with patriotic bestial
pedophiles who are just exercising their first, second, maybe fifth
and just in case, the ninth amendment rights? ...

Every time I respond to a Captcha challenge, I feel as if I'm being
conscripted to help train an image recognition ML model. And do we know
how (not if) OpenAI, et alii are using *our questions* to train a new
(subset of) model?

On 1/18/23 00:40, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:

I totally agree that realizable behavior is what matters.

The elephant in the room is whether AI (and robotics of course) will
(not to replace but to) be able to do better than humans in all
respects, including come up with creative solutions to not only the
world's most pressing problems but also small creative things like
writing poems, and then to do the mental and physical tasks required
to provide goods and services to all in the world,

Sam Altman said there are two things that will shape our future;
intelligence and energy. If we have real abundant intelligence and
energy, the world will be very different indeed.

To quote Sam Altmen at
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms

"intelligence and energy have been the fundamental limiters towards
most things we want. A future where these are not the limiting
reagents will be radically different, and can be amazingly better."

On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 at 03:06, Marcus Daniels > wrote:

Definitions are all fine and good, but realizable behavior is
what matters. Analog computers will have imperfect behavior, and
there will be leakage between components. A large network of
transistors or neurons are sufficiently similar for my purposes.
The unrolling would be inside a skull, so somewhat isolated from
interference.

-Original Message-
From: Friam > On Behalf Of glen

Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2023 2:11 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW

I don't quite grok that. A crisp definition of recursion implies
no interaction with the outside world, right? If you can tolerate the
ambiguity in that statement, the artifacts laying about from an
unrolled recursion might be seen and used by outsiders. That's not to
say a trespasser can't have some sophisticated intrusion technique.
But unrolled seems more "open" to family, friends, and the occasional
acquaintance.

On 1/17/23 13:37, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> I probably didn't pay enough attention to the thread some time
ago on serialization, but to me recursion is hard to distinguish from
an unrolling of recursion.

Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW

2023-01-18 Thread David Eric Smith

That might qualify as a DDOS attack.

> On Jan 18, 2023, at 7:03 AM, Steve Smith  wrote:
> 
> I suppose pouring all of the FriAM traffic into (even my own bloviations) a 
> chatbot might be a bit usurious (the fool's errand of a fool errant)?
> 
> On 1/17/23 2:37 PM, glen wrote:
>> You might try using the OpenAI API directly. It takes some work, but not 
>> much.
>> 
>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fopenai.com%2fapi%2f&c=E,1,HJ318n4srAACDIyWEzfPOzvMVtqgSqwLdvAizjLkkb1uDy5X4kPvoq_dYLKkkGFIA3DZ_FVdqrBvZUIyd5cGsQuJLe7SGEwu5RiJtC6GcsSxUoVp_V41JGDy&typo=1
>> 
>> Or you could sign up for this:
>> 
>> https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/blog/general-availability-of-azure-openai-service-expands-access-to-large-advanced-ai-models-with-added-enterprise-benefits/
>>  
>> 
>> I would hook you up to my Slack bot that queries GPT3 for every channel 
>> message. But that might get expensive with a verbose person like you! 8^D I 
>> can imagine some veerrryyy long prompts.
>> 
>> 
>> On 1/17/23 12:57, Steve Smith wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 1/17/23 1:08 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
 Dogs have about 500 million neurons in their cortex.  Neurons have about 
 7,000 synaptic connections, so I think my dog is a lot smarter than a 
 billion parameter LLM.  :-)
>>> And I bet (s)he channels *at least* one FriAM member's affect pretty well 
>>> also!
>>> 
>>> My 9 month old golden-doodle does as good of a job at that (I won't name 
>>> names) as my (now deceased 11 year old Akita and my 9 year old chocolate 
>>> dobie mix bot did) but nobody here really demonstrates the basic nature of 
>>> either my 9 month old tabby or her 20 year old black-mouser predecessor.
>>> There is very little overlap.
>>> 
>>> The jays and the woodpeckers and the finches and towhees and sparrows and 
>>> nuthatches and robins and the mating pair of doves and the several ravens 
>>> and the (courting?) pair of owls (that I only hear hooting to one another 
>>> in the night) and the lone (that I see) hawk and the lone blue heron (very 
>>> more occasionally) and the flock(lets) of geese migrating down the 
>>> rio-grande flyway... their aggregate neural complexity is only 
>>> multiplicative (order 100-1000x) that of any given beast... but somehow 
>>> their interactions (this is without the half-dozen species of rodentia and 
>>> leporidae and racoons and insects and worms and ) would seem to have a 
>>> more combinatorial network of relations?
>>> 
>>> I tried signing up to try chatGPT for myself (thanks to Glen's Nick Cave 
>>> blog-link) and was denied because "too busy, try back later" and realized 
>>> that it had become a locus for (first world) humans to express and combine 
>>> their greatest hopes and worse fears in a single place.
>>> 
>>> This seems like a higher-order training set?  Not just the intersection of 
>>> all things "worth saying" but somehow filtered/diffracted through "the 
>>> things (some) people are interested in in particular"...
>> 
>> 
> 
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Re: [FRIAM] Dope Slap Thread

2023-01-18 Thread David Eric Smith

Thanks Nick,

I need to affirm and thank Glen for the other post, which does indeed attach to 
just what I was requesting.  But I won’t be able to get to that today.

I wanted to reply to this one yesterday, and will hope the idea hasn’t faded 
enough to miss what seemed to me an interesting direction your response below 
can go.

A denial of status for “the underlying” seems, to me, to be the evil cult that 
Neo-PoMo is selling.  Back to that in a second, but as that thought comes up, I 
recall Glen’s arguments over the hears that post-modernism wasn’t born evil; 
its later generations of carriers turned it into that.

But from this thread, I have a new articulation of what the non-evil early 
post-modernism might have been, or might have become.  One might say that, had 
post-modernism gone in its best direction, it would have been the project of 
showing how difficult and subtle a true pragmatism is, when one realizes that 
everything is “up for grabs”, to settle into a shorthand I used in the first 
post for the various unpackings I wrote later to mean the same thing.

It would absolutely not have been a denial of any status for “the underlying”, 
bur rather a call to understand what is the nature of the status of “the 
underlying” in relation to our activity, which can include both “within our 
activity” and “as context for our activity”.  

I don’t think one escapes it, and I think your statement below affirms how much 
you haven’t let it go, because you can’t.

You say “statistics is all we got”.  If you think “you[‘ve] got” statistics, 
then you have just committed to "a belief” (not a great word, but let me not 
digress to look for a better one) in an underlying that, in fact, you don’t 
have, or so I claim.  The categories, the activities of observing and 
casting-in-language that attach quantities to them, a language and logic of 
quantities, bring into existence quantity-concepts, accepted tracks of argument 
to manipulate them.  Without all that machinery, you don’t “have” any 
“statistics” to “do”.  In thinking “you[‘ve] got” it, you have just made the 
essential commitment to “an underlying” that creates a starting point from 
which the rest of your thought and discourse can even emanate.  To understand 
how and why you have done that, and probably why you have had to do that, is 
the exercise of figuring out what the status of “the underlying” is.  I think 
the correct point of view is that all that framework “statistics” that you act 
toward _as if_ “you[‘ve] got”, is structurally just another fluctuating 
pattern, analogous in its status to the sample-estimator values assigned to 
particular quantities that get used when you apply statistical conventions to 
some particular collection of experiences. 

Remember that I wrote, originally and then again in the second post, that the 
language of “sample estimators in relation to the underlying” was meant as an 
analogy — within a frame taken as the context to express it — for the much more 
interesting problem of arriving at faithful renderings.  _Within_ the 
illustration used to express the analogy, “the underlying” certainly exists, in 
the sense that it has as well-defined roles in the structure of the process as 
the states of knowledge which are values for the sample estimators.  I did 
_not_ say, and precisely did not _mean_ that the concreteness that “the 
underlying” has in the illustration of doing a statistical inference problem — 
more precisely, the peer status of the underlying and the sample-estimator 
values, which are precisely _as concrete_ as each other, however concrete that 
is, within that frame — then transports through to a comparably concrete 
“underlying” in pragmatism in the sense of truth-notions.  The intended service 
of the analogy is that it allows us to see both sample estimators and their 
“underlying” concretely, and thereby to recognize the differentness of their 
places in our own thought organization and use.  It is that thought 
organization and use that (as I am proposing it) maps through the analogy from 
the illustrative cartoon of a statistical inference application, to the general 
case of “coming to terms” with “the world".  But precisely because the frame 
that makes “the underlying” given, in the illustrating cartoon, does _not_ map 
through the analogy, we have a new project of understanding the nature of “the 
underlying” in the truth-notion problem.  

In my little self-invented world of uninformed story-telling, where that was 
what could be seen in early post-modernism, one can see how through whatever 
combination of error or malevolence, later generations (the Neo-PoMoists) would 
have heard (probably, by disposition, _chosen_ to hear) the original postmodern 
call to figure out the nature of the status of the underlying as a denial that 
there is any such status, reducing all of life to brute competitions for power, 
to which they then dedicated themselves, because that’s the kind of peop

Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW

2023-01-18 Thread glen


This person made it even easier:

https://github.com/karfly/chatgpt_telegram_bot


On 1/18/23 09:51, Steve Smith wrote:

I might probably be able to install/load/try the openAI model if I wasn't 
wasting so much time careening down memory lane and trying to register what I 
see in my rear view mirrors with what I see screaming down the 
Autobhan-of-the-mind through my windscreen!




--
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ

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Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW

2023-01-18 Thread glen


Sadly, there are some hidden elements to all that techno-optimism. E.g.

https://nitter.cz/billyperrigo/status/1615682180201447425#m

On 1/18/23 00:40, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:

I totally agree that realizable behavior is what matters.

The elephant in the room is whether AI (and robotics of course) will (not to 
replace but to) be able to do better than humans in all respects, including 
come up with creative solutions to not only the world's most pressing problems 
but also small creative things like writing poems, and then to do the mental 
and physical tasks required to provide goods and services to all in the world,

Sam Altman said there are two things that will shape our future; intelligence 
and energy. If we have real abundant intelligence and energy, the world will be 
very different indeed.

To quote Sam Altmen at 
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms
 

  :

"intelligence and energy have been the fundamental limiters towards most things we 
want. A future where these are not the limiting reagents will be radically different, and 
can be amazingly better."



On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 at 03:06, Marcus Daniels mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:

Definitions are all fine and good, but realizable behavior is what matters. 
  Analog computers will have imperfect behavior, and there will be leakage 
between components.   A large network of transistors or neurons are 
sufficiently similar for my purposes.   The unrolling would be inside a skull, 
so somewhat isolated from interference.

-Original Message-
From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> 
On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2023 2:11 PM
To: friam@redfish.com 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW

I don't quite grok that. A crisp definition of recursion implies no interaction with 
the outside world, right? If you can tolerate the ambiguity in that statement, the 
artifacts laying about from an unrolled recursion might be seen and used by outsiders. 
That's not to say a trespasser can't have some sophisticated intrusion technique. But 
unrolled seems more "open" to family, friends, and the occasional acquaintance.

On 1/17/23 13:37, Marcus Daniels wrote:
 > I probably didn't pay enough attention to the thread some time ago on 
serialization, but to me recursion is hard to distinguish from an unrolling of 
recursion.




--
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ

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Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW

2023-01-18 Thread Pieter Steenekamp

I totally agree that realizable behavior is what matters.

The elephant in the room is whether AI (and robotics of course) will (not
to replace but to) be able to do better than humans in all respects,
including come up with creative solutions to not only the world's most
pressing problems but also small creative things like writing poems, and
then to do the mental and physical tasks required to provide goods and
services to all in the world,

Sam Altman said there are two things that will shape our future;
intelligence and energy. If we have real abundant intelligence and energy,
the world will be very different indeed.

To quote Sam Altmen at
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms
 :

"intelligence and energy have been the fundamental limiters towards most
things we want. A future where these are not the limiting reagents will be
radically different, and can be amazingly better."



On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 at 03:06, Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> Definitions are all fine and good, but realizable behavior is what
> matters.   Analog computers will have imperfect behavior, and there will be
> leakage between components.   A large network of transistors or neurons are
> sufficiently similar for my purposes.   The unrolling would be inside a
> skull, so somewhat isolated from interference.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2023 2:11 PM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW
>
> I don't quite grok that. A crisp definition of recursion implies no
> interaction with the outside world, right? If you can tolerate the
> ambiguity in that statement, the artifacts laying about from an unrolled
> recursion might be seen and used by outsiders. That's not to say a
> trespasser can't have some sophisticated intrusion technique. But unrolled
> seems more "open" to family, friends, and the occasional acquaintance.
>
> On 1/17/23 13:37, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> > I probably didn't pay enough attention to the thread some time ago on
> serialization, but to me recursion is hard to distinguish from an unrolling
> of recursion.
>
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>
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