Re: [FRIAM] On Apple Podcasts: Solving Tornadoes: Woke Meteorology

[Steve Smith]

Fascinating (to me) how water (the H20 molecule, it's phases, mechanical 
modes, radiative coupling, chemistry, aggregate thermodynamics, etc) is 
central to such a widely distributed space-time regime of morpho and 
teleodynamic phenomena spanning (sub)cellular to organism to 
super-organism (herds, schools, forests, prairies, ecosystems) and also 
planetary hydro/cryo/biosphere scale weather/climate/???.


There may be evidence of water being significantly relevant to 
solar/planetary and even galactic scales but  at least *up-to* planetary 
scales and down to "molecular scales", indeed "Water is WEIRD" as Hywel 
reminds us through Nick.   Is this merely another name for our ignorance 
or is it acutely anthropocentric because it defines the Goldilocks 
region our form of consciousness/life emerged/exists/thrives in?  Water 
is weirdly relevant to human-scale interests?


Spanning 19 decimal orders of magnitude, from 10^-10m to 10^9 meters ?

And in time?  vibrational frequency(ies) of water (wavelength(s) in 
micrometers) vs speed of sound (1500 m/sec)?    9 orders(decimal) of 
magnitude?


I have been fascinated by the quasi-crystalline structures that have 
been both discovered scientifically and invoked woo-woo-ly such as 
described in Mae-Wan Ho's Rainbow Water/Worm, AND it's implications 
around the physics of /Life Itself/.


https://www.worldscientific.com/worldscibooks/10.1142/6928#t=aboutBook 




And little or none of it might be relevant to the "physics of swirlies" 
(RIP Doug Roberts)...



in the bigger/broader question of meteorology as a coherent discipline 
vs "clabboring together of ..." some (unpublished)work I did 15 years 
ago with Deana Pennington 
 on the 
topic of the emergence of new scientific disciplines/paradigms would 
suggest that this precise level of dis/mis-organization and apparent 
"clabboring" and "incompatable" is an earmark of an impending 
phase-shift (and in fact  what might represent the emergence of a new 
field and/or new paradigms)?  I highly recommend Deanna's entire corpus 
for those interested in the meta-topic of scientific 
collaboration/understanding/processes, especially in the bio/eco/climate 
sciences.   We have not worked closely since she moved from UNM to UTEP 
a decade ago... she thrives there best I can tell.  I no longer do 
anything useful beyond gadfly-about myself.  Some /Laurels/ make for 
better resting than others...


- Steve

/    May the laurels you rest on be the fruit of living in interesting 
times? /(to mangle/mashup/clabber-up some aphorisms)


On 9/7/23 1:10 PM, Roger Critchlow wrote:
Anyone who needs to call "woke" to make a scientific argument has lost 
my ear.  An attention seeking proto-populist weatherman.


The electrostatics of individual water molecules, that the hydrogens 
have some positive charge and the lone pairs of oxygen have some 
negative charge (which is actually a consequence of the molecule 
geometry), is all averaged into the thermodynamic behavior.  That 
gaseous water vapor and liquid water vapor droplets coexist is one way 
the gas - liquid equilibrium can roll.  Are the droplets drying out or 
getting wetter decides which way the heat is moving.  The amount of 
surface area between the liquid and gas phases facilitates the rate of 
heat transfer/drying/wetting.


The fundamental delusion is thinking you can explain the weather 
better than simply blaming it on the gods.  We know the basic 
principles involved, but the variety of ways it can work out continues 
to surprise us.


-- rec --

On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 8:54 AM Nicholas Thompson 
 wrote:


thanks Pieter for giving a hear.  He almost certainly is a crack
pot (he has an "only I can fix it" thing going)  but is he wrong
about everything?  He makes a big deal about the special
properties of water molecules. He argues that these are created
not by the geometric properties of the molecule per se but by the
electrostatic (?!) gradient created by the structure, a
distinction he admits is subtle, but insists is absolutely
crucial.  He says at one point that water vapor itself is rare and
that water remains in minuscule droplet form or (??) sometimes
forms a plasma.  Some how this leads him to the conclusion that
convection is a confection.

I do have sympathy for his general assertion that meteorology is
an incoherent clabboring together of incompatible ways of talking
and thinking.

This is one of those moments when I profoundly miss Hywel White. 
One of his aphorisms was "Water is /*WEIRD!"*/
/*
*/
/*Nick
*/

On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 12:57 AM Pieter Steenekamp
 wrote:

I listened to the podcast and my opinion is that this
guy, James McGinn, is a crackpot.

On Thu, 7 Sept 2023 at 05:28, Nicholas Thompson
 

Re: [FRIAM] Science Fiction Books

[cody dooderson]

I asked ChatGPT if it dreamed and it said that it didn't. However, is
adversarial training of neural networks much different than dreaming?

A new class from MITX showed up in my email today. It is called *Minds and
Machines: An introduction to philosophy of mind, exploring consciousness,
reality, AI, and more. The most in-depth philosophy course available
online. *https://mitxonline.mit.edu/courses/course-v1:MITxT+24.09x/
It may help with this question.

_ Cody Smith _
c...@simtable.com


On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 12:25 PM Steve Smith  wrote:

> Great observations as usual Glen...   I have lapsed into *listening* to
> almost all long-form writing, whether fiction or non  and it
> definitely distorts (torts?) my perception/conception of the
> material/subject/message.   A corollary to McLuhan's Medium/Message
> duality?
>
>   I find the "output" side to be more specific (or conscious) for me
> than the "input" side.   Your point of cuneoform
> sticks/quills/pencils/keyboard/gestural-interpreters being part of our
> extended phenotype is very apt as is the idea that (if I understand your
> intentions) it (intrinsically) effects our interoception and
> inter-subjective realities.
>
> I also appreciate your reflections on "mal" and "dis" which I have lived
> with all of my life... "judging" or "discriminating" in ways which
> themselves are "adaptive" for one suite of purposes but perhaps
> "mal"/"dis" for another suite.   Having a vector or tensor fitness
> function with (arbitrary) signs on the elements doesn't guarantee they
> themselves are "fit" for what you think they are.
>
> Do Androids dream of Electric Sheep?   Do LLM's (or larger adaptive
> systems they are embedded in?) dream of the tensor fields they are
> embedded in or create or co-create with the fields of human
> activity/history/knowledge/experience/future/manifesting-destiny they
> were designed to model/emulate/expose/facilitate/co-evolve with?
>
> I dunno,  but it sure is a fascinating milieu to be surfing through in
> these auspicious days at the beginning (or end) of the Anthropocene.
>
>   - Steve
>
> On 9/7/23 1:01 PM, glen wrote:
> > Both keyboards and pencils are part of our extended phenotype and play
> > (multiple) roles in interoception, including the induction of
> > inter-subjectivity. I've forgotten who it is, but there's someone on
> > this list who *listens* to our posts, rather than reads them. I tried
> > that with a blog post this morning during my mobility routine:
> >
> > https://www.emilkirkegaard.com/p/preferences-can-be-sick-mental-illness
> >
> > 
> > Then because I had an allergic reaction to what I heard, I *read* it
> > later. Listening to it disgusted me. I came away thinking this
> > Kirkegaard dude's akin to a scientific racist ... or maybe a
> > eugenecist. I admit to being a fan of Thomas Szasz back in the day. (A
> > friend's mom actually dated him at some point ... allegedly.) But at
> > this point, I've been infected by the Woke Mind Virus; and it's
> > difficult to stomach phrases like "strict homosexuality is more
> > disordered than bisexuality." Reading it, however, helped me remember
> > that maladaption is part and parcel of adaption. Disorder is part and
> > parcel of order. The "mal" and "dis" prefixes are nothing but
> > value-laden subjectivity. The goo of reality extruded through the mold
> > of the author/thinker/subject. For someone like Kirkegaard to claim
> > they're being "objective" while using the "mal" prefix is not even
> > wrong. It's just bullshit. Apparently, my Woke Virus infection is
> > worse near my ears than near my eyes.
> > 
> >
> > But the point is that *which* extended trait you use (pencil, audio,
> > text, etc.) chooses which interoceptive cycle you engage. And when you
> > pretend to make such a choice on purpose, at will, any assignation of
> > fault would be transitive. Which wolf do you feed?
> >
> > On 9/4/23 10:29, Steve Smith wrote:
> >> I'm not sure my facility with the keyboard actually serves me. As
> >> many of you may suspect, and I suspect so myself, it allows me to be
> >> much less thoughtful and rigorous than I would be in handwriting or
> >> if I had some other throttle or impedance elements between linguistic
> >> centers and "paper"?
> >
>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:  5/2017 thru present
> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe 

Re: [FRIAM] Science Fiction Books

[Steve Smith]

Great observations as usual Glen...   I have lapsed into *listening* to 
almost all long-form writing, whether fiction or non  and it 
definitely distorts (torts?) my perception/conception of the 
material/subject/message.   A corollary to McLuhan's Medium/Message 
duality?


 I find the "output" side to be more specific (or conscious) for me 
than the "input" side.   Your point of cuneoform 
sticks/quills/pencils/keyboard/gestural-interpreters being part of our 
extended phenotype is very apt as is the idea that (if I understand your 
intentions) it (intrinsically) effects our interoception and 
inter-subjective realities.


I also appreciate your reflections on "mal" and "dis" which I have lived 
with all of my life... "judging" or "discriminating" in ways which 
themselves are "adaptive" for one suite of purposes but perhaps 
"mal"/"dis" for another suite.   Having a vector or tensor fitness 
function with (arbitrary) signs on the elements doesn't guarantee they 
themselves are "fit" for what you think they are.


Do Androids dream of Electric Sheep?   Do LLM's (or larger adaptive 
systems they are embedded in?) dream of the tensor fields they are 
embedded in or create or co-create with the fields of human 
activity/history/knowledge/experience/future/manifesting-destiny they 
were designed to model/emulate/expose/facilitate/co-evolve with?


I dunno,  but it sure is a fascinating milieu to be surfing through in 
these auspicious days at the beginning (or end) of the Anthropocene.


 - Steve

On 9/7/23 1:01 PM, glen wrote:
Both keyboards and pencils are part of our extended phenotype and play 
(multiple) roles in interoception, including the induction of 
inter-subjectivity. I've forgotten who it is, but there's someone on 
this list who *listens* to our posts, rather than reads them. I tried 
that with a blog post this morning during my mobility routine:


https://www.emilkirkegaard.com/p/preferences-can-be-sick-mental-illness


Then because I had an allergic reaction to what I heard, I *read* it 
later. Listening to it disgusted me. I came away thinking this 
Kirkegaard dude's akin to a scientific racist ... or maybe a 
eugenecist. I admit to being a fan of Thomas Szasz back in the day. (A 
friend's mom actually dated him at some point ... allegedly.) But at 
this point, I've been infected by the Woke Mind Virus; and it's 
difficult to stomach phrases like "strict homosexuality is more 
disordered than bisexuality." Reading it, however, helped me remember 
that maladaption is part and parcel of adaption. Disorder is part and 
parcel of order. The "mal" and "dis" prefixes are nothing but 
value-laden subjectivity. The goo of reality extruded through the mold 
of the author/thinker/subject. For someone like Kirkegaard to claim 
they're being "objective" while using the "mal" prefix is not even 
wrong. It's just bullshit. Apparently, my Woke Virus infection is 
worse near my ears than near my eyes.



But the point is that *which* extended trait you use (pencil, audio, 
text, etc.) chooses which interoceptive cycle you engage. And when you 
pretend to make such a choice on purpose, at will, any assignation of 
fault would be transitive. Which wolf do you feed?


On 9/4/23 10:29, Steve Smith wrote:
I'm not sure my facility with the keyboard actually serves me. As 
many of you may suspect, and I suspect so myself, it allows me to be 
much less thoughtful and rigorous than I would be in handwriting or 
if I had some other throttle or impedance elements between linguistic 
centers and "paper"?




-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] On Apple Podcasts: Solving Tornadoes: Woke Meteorology

[Roger Critchlow]

Anyone who needs to call "woke" to make a scientific argument has lost my
ear.  An attention seeking proto-populist weatherman.

The electrostatics of individual water molecules, that the hydrogens have
some positive charge and the lone pairs of oxygen have some negative charge
(which is actually a consequence of the molecule geometry), is all averaged
into the thermodynamic behavior.  That gaseous water vapor and liquid water
vapor droplets coexist is one way the gas - liquid equilibrium can roll.
Are the droplets drying out or getting wetter decides which way the heat is
moving.  The amount of surface area between the liquid and gas phases
facilitates the rate of heat transfer/drying/wetting.

The fundamental delusion is thinking you can explain the weather better
than simply blaming it on the gods.  We know the basic principles involved,
but the variety of ways it can work out continues to surprise us.

-- rec --

On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 8:54 AM Nicholas Thompson 
wrote:

> thanks Pieter for giving a hear.  He almost certainly is a crack pot (he
> has an "only I can fix it" thing going)  but is he wrong about everything?
> He makes a big deal about the special properties of water molecules. He
> argues that these are created not by the geometric properties of the
> molecule per se but by the electrostatic (?!) gradient created by the
> structure, a distinction he admits is subtle, but insists is absolutely
> crucial.  He says at one point that water vapor itself is rare and that
> water remains in minuscule droplet form or (??) sometimes forms a
> plasma.  Some how this leads him to the conclusion that convection is a
> confection.
>
> I do have sympathy for his general assertion that meteorology is an
> incoherent clabboring together of incompatible ways of talking and
> thinking.
>
> This is one of those moments when I profoundly miss Hywel White.  One of
> his aphorisms was "Water is *WEIRD!"*
>
>
> *Nick*
>
> On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 12:57 AM Pieter Steenekamp <
> piet...@randcontrols.co.za> wrote:
>
>> I listened to the podcast and my opinion is that this guy, James McGinn,
>> is a crackpot.
>>
>> On Thu, 7 Sept 2023 at 05:28, Nicholas Thompson 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> *Hi, all,*
>>>
>>> *I was casting about for a podcast on meteorology and stumbled on this
>>> guy.  I can’t tell if he’s a total raging loon. he says some interesting
>>> things about the properties of water and then claims that convection is a
>>> myth! I could not find any trace of him on the web except this podcast. The
>>> one thing he says that caught my attention is that meteorologists imply
>>> that air masses have structural properties that would allow, say, in light
>>> air mass to hold a loft, a heavier one. Having red hundreds of forecast
>>> discussions, I sort of know what he’s talking about.*
>>>
>>>
>>> *?*
>>> *Nick.*
>>> *Solving Tornadoes: Woke Meteorology*
>>> James McGinn
>>>
>>> Exposing the incompetence of the current meteorological paradigm on
>>> storm theory and introducing a new, scientifically competent theory of
>>> storms and atmospheric flow.
>>>
>>> Listen on Apple Podcasts:
>>> https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/solving-tornadoes-woke-meteorology/id1489185715
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my Dumb Phone
>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>>
>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:  5/2017 thru present
> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC 

Re: [FRIAM] Science Fiction Books

[glen]

Both keyboards and pencils are part of our extended phenotype and play 
(multiple) roles in interoception, including the induction of 
inter-subjectivity. I've forgotten who it is, but there's someone on this list 
who *listens* to our posts, rather than reads them. I tried that with a blog 
post this morning during my mobility routine:

https://www.emilkirkegaard.com/p/preferences-can-be-sick-mental-illness


Then because I had an allergic reaction to what I heard, I *read* it later. Listening to it disgusted me. I came away thinking 
this Kirkegaard dude's akin to a scientific racist ... or maybe a eugenecist. I admit to being a fan of Thomas Szasz back in the 
day. (A friend's mom actually dated him at some point ... allegedly.) But at this point, I've been infected by the Woke Mind 
Virus; and it's difficult to stomach phrases like "strict homosexuality is more disordered than bisexuality." Reading 
it, however, helped me remember that maladaption is part and parcel of adaption. Disorder is part and parcel of order. The 
"mal" and "dis" prefixes are nothing but value-laden subjectivity. The goo of reality extruded through the 
mold of the author/thinker/subject. For someone like Kirkegaard to claim they're being "objective" while using the 
"mal" prefix is not even wrong. It's just bullshit. Apparently, my Woke Virus infection is worse near my ears than near 
my eyes.


But the point is that *which* extended trait you use (pencil, audio, text, 
etc.) chooses which interoceptive cycle you engage. And when you pretend to 
make such a choice on purpose, at will, any assignation of fault would be 
transitive. Which wolf do you feed?

On 9/4/23 10:29, Steve Smith wrote:

I'm not sure my facility with the keyboard actually serves me. As many of you may 
suspect, and I suspect so myself, it allows me to be much less thoughtful and rigorous 
than I would be in handwriting or if I had some other throttle or impedance elements 
between linguistic centers and "paper"?


--
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] On Apple Podcasts: Solving Tornadoes: Woke Meteorology

[Nicholas Thompson]

thanks Pieter for giving a hear.  He almost certainly is a crack pot (he
has an "only I can fix it" thing going)  but is he wrong about everything?
He makes a big deal about the special properties of water molecules. He
argues that these are created not by the geometric properties of the
molecule per se but by the electrostatic (?!) gradient created by the
structure, a distinction he admits is subtle, but insists is absolutely
crucial.  He says at one point that water vapor itself is rare and that
water remains in minuscule droplet form or (??) sometimes forms a
plasma.  Some how this leads him to the conclusion that convection is a
confection.

I do have sympathy for his general assertion that meteorology is an
incoherent clabboring together of incompatible ways of talking and
thinking.

This is one of those moments when I profoundly miss Hywel White.  One of
his aphorisms was "Water is *WEIRD!"*


*Nick*

On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 12:57 AM Pieter Steenekamp <
piet...@randcontrols.co.za> wrote:

> I listened to the podcast and my opinion is that this guy, James McGinn,
> is a crackpot.
>
> On Thu, 7 Sept 2023 at 05:28, Nicholas Thompson 
> wrote:
>
>> *Hi, all,*
>>
>> *I was casting about for a podcast on meteorology and stumbled on this
>> guy.  I can’t tell if he’s a total raging loon. he says some interesting
>> things about the properties of water and then claims that convection is a
>> myth! I could not find any trace of him on the web except this podcast. The
>> one thing he says that caught my attention is that meteorologists imply
>> that air masses have structural properties that would allow, say, in light
>> air mass to hold a loft, a heavier one. Having red hundreds of forecast
>> discussions, I sort of know what he’s talking about.*
>>
>>
>> *?*
>> *Nick.*
>> *Solving Tornadoes: Woke Meteorology*
>> James McGinn
>>
>> Exposing the incompetence of the current meteorological paradigm on storm
>> theory and introducing a new, scientifically competent theory of storms and
>> atmospheric flow.
>>
>> Listen on Apple Podcasts:
>> https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/solving-tornadoes-woke-meteorology/id1489185715
>>
>>
>> Sent from my Dumb Phone
>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:  5/2017 thru present
> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/