Re: [FRIAM] Theil

[Marcus Daniels]

I can't imagine watching all that.  Do people?

On Nov 13, 2023, at 6:43 PM, David Eric Smith  wrote:

 Well in that case, definitely look up the interview he did with Sara Walker 
and Lee Cronin.

I will not comment further.

Eric



On Nov 13, 2023, at 5:57 PM, Steve Smith  wrote:



On 11/13/23 12:06 PM, glen wrote:
You might want to check the Gurometer. Lex has an entry:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Oe-af4_OmzLJavktcSKGfP0wmxCX0ppP8n_Tvi9l_yc/edit?usp=sharing

While Lex's scores are relatively low compared to some of the wackos on the 
list, we are known by association. And many of Lex's guests score relatively 
high.

Fascinating resource,  thanks!  You are a veritable font (fount) of things like 
this that I should probably be able to find for myself.

I had to look a little to find a key to the columns of the  table, I don't know 
if this is the preferred or only one, but it seemed close enough to be useful 
for my purposes:

https://techhenzy.com/gurometer/

I haven't listened to enough of Lex's podcasts (did I mention 1-2 hours each?!) 
to be able to evaluate what his "coupling" is with his guests... even without 
the GuruMeter I felt that theme ("known by association") from the more 
prominent/recent interviewees he has engaged... but my contingent judgement of 
the *content* and *style* of the interviews counterbalanced that almost to an 
extreme.   Which is why I brought it up here.

Implicit but likely opaque/arcane to your own references to community (self) 
policing and ?agonism?, I feel (with limited experience so far) that Fridman 
may well provide a regulating role within some community (of Galaxy-Brain 
Gurus?)...

I doubt I will get the 'round t'uits but it seems like there is a tensor 
product to be explored among these folks and their various interactions with 
one another...   something interesting might emerge?   Maybe this only occurs 
to me because Lex is more of a coupling agent than a primary source of any 
ideas/theories/positions from what I've seen so far.   I haven't investigated 
the GuruMeter guys enough to understand their methods but I take it for granted 
they are not unserious in this work.


On 11/13/23 10:08, Steve Smith wrote:
It seems (maybe only to me?) that "will" is what defines the intersection of 
memory and imagination?   The free-will-less-ness-ers among us (ala Sopolsky 
)
 may find this an entirely specious thing to consider or discuss (though 
without free will, what means "specious" or "discuss" or "consider" sans 
free-will?).

I recently discovered Lex Fridman's podcasts 

 and was quite surprised by several things (albeit with very limited 
sampling... all of his most recent interview with Musk and a bit of his 
interview with Isaacson and about half of the Harari one):   I don't 
significantly disagree with the general mistrust of Musk in his Autistic-ish 
style and affect, but I'd say that Lex brings out the best in him, showing him 
to be capable of thoughtful and even empathetic-ish observations.  As I 
understand it (from my reading of Isaacson's biography of Musk) brother Kimball 
may also be a significantly similar "regulating influence" on Elon.   Grimes 
maybe, maybe not.  The other mothers of his children, same-same... probably 
each and all of them for a period of time or within certain frameworks.   And 
again, same with the children... though maybe projection on my part having been 
moderately well-regulated in several modes by my own children during each of 
their phases (right up to their current middle-agedness).

As an aside, Fridman's other interviews also all sound potentially 
fascinating... though I cringe at the fact/thought of interviews with 
Netanyahu, KanYE, Kushner, Rogan... the commentary I've read around those 
interviews tends to skew toward "how could you normalize (amplify?) those 
A**holes by even giving them the time of the day???!!!?".   Lex's interviews 
are definitely long-form (1-2 hours) compared to today's 
tik-tok/ad-jingle/bumper-sticker/snark-pith calibrated sound-bitery.I find 
myself avoiding them for this reason (not wanting 

Re: [FRIAM] Theil

[Marcus Daniels]

There's a Nine Inch Nails song that coincides with the SFI initials.  Dating 
myself.

On Nov 13, 2023, at 9:00 PM, Steve Smith  wrote:




On 11/13/23 5:39 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
I'm surprised Stuart Kauffman isn't in there.

CultBiosGroup?


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Re: [FRIAM] Theil

[Steve Smith]

On 11/13/23 5:39 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:

I'm surprised Stuart Kauffman isn't in there.


CultBiosGroup?

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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
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Re: [FRIAM] Theil

[Steve Smith]

On 11/13/23 6:42 PM, David Eric Smith wrote:
Well in that case, definitely look up the interview he did with Sara 
Walker and Lee Cronin.


I will not comment further.

Eric


Gah!

Coincidence that I just finished Stephen Webb's updated review of the 
Fermi Paradox.  I didn't choose to read it because I have a vested 
interest in the answers (roughly 75 whack-a-moles), but rather a 
fascination with the fact that the question hasn't been advanced 
significantly since the Eric Jones' LA-UR of 198 
5  (Alias Smith 
and Jones?) on the topic,  which I read as a very young LANL  Staff 
Member when it was published internally.  Or the Drake equation since 
1961?   It was also fascinating to be re-introduced to Knuth's Up-Arrow 
notatio n for 
expressing excruciatingly large numbers


At the time it seemed like we hadn't been asking the question long 
enough (~40 years) for the answers to mean much (have much 
relevance?)... 40ish years later is only 2X longer yet the technical 
progress (e.g. SETI/Hubble/Webb/Deep Machine Learning/...) the silence 
of the cosmos seems significantly more pregnant?


I've given Walker/Cronin/Fridman about 70 minutes so far and my head 
hurts (in the best way)...  and I'm clearly over my head in beaucoup 
ways...   though I may not be able to stop and it will be definitely one 
of those "4 hours I will never be able to, nor want to, get back?)


   she said /"the fact that we can even talk here is a result of the
   fact that we can exchange structures in assembly space"
   /

statements like this and implied references to abstractions like Godel 
Numbering on Assembly Indices and Kauffman's NK model, casual graphs ala 
Glymour or Perl,  L-systems, Wheeler's It-to-Bit and a spectrum from 
discovered to invented, leave me (yet more) painfully aware of how over 
my head I am...  I dismissed SFI's "interplanetary" announcements back 
when (2019) as unserious but with Ted Chiang's "Arrival" at SFI in light 
of his "Story of your Life" and the


In a few months/years I expect this type of discussion could as easily 
be actors reading a GPT-X script which entirely captures the stylization 
of a serious discussion without being (necessarily?) serious at all and 
perhaps *nobody* could tell?


The intersection of /possibility/ and /probability/ spaces seems to 
define/imply something about what I said at earlier about the difference 
between memory/imagination, past/future?  (/Will, Qualia, ???/)


I'm suspect I should follow your lead and not comment further (for 
entirely different reasons)...  If I really want to hurt myself (some 
more) I should probably cue up Fridman's interview with Wolfram back to 
back with this one.  At this rate I doubt I will ever get around to his 
interviews with Netanyahu and Kushner or Rogan...


Lex just commented "/discovering wisdom through nuanced disagreement/?" 
and it seems to be good support for Glen's agonism...


Argh...  "why does head hurt when Hulk try to think?"  maybe I should 
sign up for the Neuralink Beta and get the GPT-shield to go with it?  
With a power-tower count of components


   (./... must... stop... now.../ )







On Nov 13, 2023, at 5:57 PM, Steve Smith  wrote:


On 11/13/23 12:06 PM, glen wrote:

You might want to check the Gurometer. Lex has an entry:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Oe-af4_OmzLJavktcSKGfP0wmxCX0ppP8n_Tvi9l_yc/edit?usp=sharing 



While Lex's scores are relatively low compared to some of the wackos 
on the list, we are known by association. And many of Lex's guests 
score relatively high.


Fascinating resource,  thanks!  You are a veritable font (fount) of 
things like this that I should probably be able to find for myself.


I had to look a little to find a key to the columns of the  table, I 
don't know if this is the preferred or only one, but it seemed close 
enough to be useful for my purposes:


https://techhenzy.com/gurometer/

I haven't listened to enough of Lex's podcasts (did I mention 1-2 
hours each?!) to be able to evaluate what his "coupling" is with his 
guests... even without the GuruMeter I felt that theme ("known by 
association") from the more prominent/recent interviewees he has 
engaged... but my contingent judgement of the *content* and *style* 
of the interviews counterbalanced that almost to an extreme.   Which 
is why I brought it up here.


Implicit but likely opaque/arcane to your own references to community 
(self) policing and ?agonism?, I feel (with limited experience so 
far) that Fridman may well provide a regulating role within some 
community (of Galaxy-Brain Gurus?)...


I doubt I will get the 'round t'uits but it seems like there is a 
tensor product to be explored among these folks and their various 
interactions with one another...   something interesting might 
emerge? Maybe this only occurs to me 

Re: [FRIAM] Theil

[David Eric Smith]

I actually saw your post second, Frank, but had to smile when I did.  

Benefits/defects of reading emails in reverse chronological.

Eric


> On Nov 13, 2023, at 7:31 PM, Frank Wimberly  wrote:
> 
> Were you responding to my post, Eric?  Probably not.
> 
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> 
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
> 
> On Mon, Nov 13, 2023, 6:43 PM David Eric Smith  > wrote:
>> Well in that case, definitely look up the interview he did with Sara Walker 
>> and Lee Cronin.
>> 
>> I will not comment further.
>> 
>> Eric
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Nov 13, 2023, at 5:57 PM, Steve Smith >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 11/13/23 12:06 PM, glen wrote:
 You might want to check the Gurometer. Lex has an entry: 
 
 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Oe-af4_OmzLJavktcSKGfP0wmxCX0ppP8n_Tvi9l_yc/edit?usp=sharing
  
 
 While Lex's scores are relatively low compared to some of the wackos on 
 the list, we are known by association. And many of Lex's guests score 
 relatively high. 
>>> Fascinating resource,  thanks!  You are a veritable font (fount) of things 
>>> like this that I should probably be able to find for myself.
>>> 
>>> I had to look a little to find a key to the columns of the  table, I don't 
>>> know if this is the preferred or only one, but it seemed close enough to be 
>>> useful for my purposes:
>>> 
>>> https://techhenzy.com/gurometer/ 
>>> 
>>> I haven't listened to enough of Lex's podcasts (did I mention 1-2 hours 
>>> each?!) to be able to evaluate what his "coupling" is with his guests... 
>>> even without the GuruMeter I felt that theme ("known by association") from 
>>> the more prominent/recent interviewees he has engaged... but my contingent 
>>> judgement of the *content* and *style* of the interviews counterbalanced 
>>> that almost to an extreme.   Which is why I brought it up here.
>>> 
>>> Implicit but likely opaque/arcane to your own references to community 
>>> (self) policing and ?agonism?, I feel (with limited experience so far) that 
>>> Fridman may well provide a regulating role within some community (of 
>>> Galaxy-Brain Gurus?)...
>>> 
>>> I doubt I will get the 'round t'uits but it seems like there is a tensor 
>>> product to be explored among these folks and their various interactions 
>>> with one another...   something interesting might emerge?   Maybe this only 
>>> occurs to me because Lex is more of a coupling agent than a primary source 
>>> of any ideas/theories/positions from what I've seen so far.   I haven't 
>>> investigated the GuruMeter guys enough to understand their methods but I 
>>> take it for granted they are not unserious in this work.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 
 On 11/13/23 10:08, Steve Smith wrote: 
> It seems (maybe only to me?) that "will" is what defines the intersection 
> of memory and imagination?   The free-will-less-ness-ers among us (ala 
> Sopolsky 
> 
>  
> )
>  may find this an entirely specious thing to consider or discuss (though 
> without free will, what means "specious" or "discuss" or "consider" sans 
> free-will?). 
> 
> I recently discovered Lex Fridman's podcasts 
>  
> 
>  and was quite surprised by several things (albeit with very limited 
> sampling... all of his most recent interview with Musk and a bit of his 
> interview with Isaacson and about half of the Harari one):   I don't 
> significantly disagree with the general mistrust of Musk in his 
> Autistic-ish style and affect, but I'd say that Lex brings out the best 
> in him, showing him to be capable of thoughtful and even empathetic-ish 
> observations.  As I understand it (from my reading of Isaacson's 
> biography of Musk) brother Kimball may also be a significantly similar 
> "regulating influence" on Elon.   Grimes maybe, maybe not.  The other 
> mothers of his children, same-same... probably each and all of them for a 
> period of time or within certain frameworks.   And again, same with the 

Re: [FRIAM] Theil

[Frank Wimberly]

Were you responding to my post, Eric?  Probably not.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Mon, Nov 13, 2023, 6:43 PM David Eric Smith  wrote:

> Well in that case, definitely look up the interview he did with Sara
> Walker and Lee Cronin.
>
> I will not comment further.
>
> Eric
>
>
>
> On Nov 13, 2023, at 5:57 PM, Steve Smith  wrote:
>
>
> On 11/13/23 12:06 PM, glen wrote:
>
> You might want to check the Gurometer. Lex has an entry:
>
>
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Oe-af4_OmzLJavktcSKGfP0wmxCX0ppP8n_Tvi9l_yc/edit?usp=sharing
>
> While Lex's scores are relatively low compared to some of the wackos on
> the list, we are known by association. And many of Lex's guests score
> relatively high.
>
> Fascinating resource,  thanks!  You are a veritable font (fount) of things
> like this that I should probably be able to find for myself.
>
> I had to look a little to find a key to the columns of the  table, I don't
> know if this is the preferred or only one, but it seemed close enough to be
> useful for my purposes:
>
> https://techhenzy.com/gurometer/
> 
>
> I haven't listened to enough of Lex's podcasts (did I mention 1-2 hours
> each?!) to be able to evaluate what his "coupling" is with his guests...
> even without the GuruMeter I felt that theme ("known by association") from
> the more prominent/recent interviewees he has engaged... but my contingent
> judgement of the *content* and *style* of the interviews counterbalanced
> that almost to an extreme.   Which is why I brought it up here.
>
> Implicit but likely opaque/arcane to your own references to community
> (self) policing and ?agonism?, I feel (with limited experience so far) that
> Fridman may well provide a regulating role within some community (of
> Galaxy-Brain Gurus?)...
>
> I doubt I will get the 'round t'uits but it seems like there is a tensor
> product to be explored among these folks and their various interactions
> with one another...   something interesting might emerge?   Maybe this only
> occurs to me because Lex is more of a coupling agent than a primary source
> of any ideas/theories/positions from what I've seen so far.   I haven't
> investigated the GuruMeter guys enough to understand their methods but I
> take it for granted they are not unserious in this work.
>
>
>
> On 11/13/23 10:08, Steve Smith wrote:
>
> It seems (maybe only to me?) that "will" is what defines the intersection
> of memory and imagination?   The free-will-less-ness-ers among us (ala
> Sopolsky
> 
> )
> may find this an entirely specious thing to consider or discuss (though
> without free will, what means "specious" or "discuss" or "consider" sans
> free-will?).
>
> I recently discovered Lex Fridman's podcasts
> 
> 
> and was quite surprised by several things (albeit with very limited
> sampling... all of his most recent interview with Musk and a bit of his
> interview with Isaacson and about half of the Harari one):   I don't
> significantly disagree with the general mistrust of Musk in his
> Autistic-ish style and affect, but I'd say that Lex brings out the best in
> him, showing him to be capable of thoughtful and even empathetic-ish
> observations.  As I understand it (from my reading of Isaacson's biography
> of Musk) brother Kimball may also be a significantly similar "regulating
> influence" on Elon.   Grimes maybe, maybe not.  The other mothers of his
> children, same-same... probably each and all of them for a period of time
> or within certain frameworks.   And again, same with the children... though
> maybe projection on my part having been moderately well-regulated in
> several modes by my own children during each of their phases (right up to
> their current middle-agedness).
>
> As an aside, Fridman's other interviews also all sound potentially
> fascinating... though I cringe at the fact/thought of interviews with
> Netanyahu, KanYE, Kushner, Rogan... the commentary I've read around
> those interviews tends to skew toward "how could you normalize (amplify?)
> those A**holes by even giving them the time of the 

Re: [FRIAM] Theil

[David Eric Smith]

Well in that case, definitely look up the interview he did with Sara Walker and 
Lee Cronin.

I will not comment further.

Eric



> On Nov 13, 2023, at 5:57 PM, Steve Smith  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 11/13/23 12:06 PM, glen wrote:
>> You might want to check the Gurometer. Lex has an entry: 
>> 
>> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Oe-af4_OmzLJavktcSKGfP0wmxCX0ppP8n_Tvi9l_yc/edit?usp=sharing
>>  
>> 
>> While Lex's scores are relatively low compared to some of the wackos on the 
>> list, we are known by association. And many of Lex's guests score relatively 
>> high. 
> Fascinating resource,  thanks!  You are a veritable font (fount) of things 
> like this that I should probably be able to find for myself.
> 
> I had to look a little to find a key to the columns of the  table, I don't 
> know if this is the preferred or only one, but it seemed close enough to be 
> useful for my purposes:
> 
> https://techhenzy.com/gurometer/ 
> 
> I haven't listened to enough of Lex's podcasts (did I mention 1-2 hours 
> each?!) to be able to evaluate what his "coupling" is with his guests... even 
> without the GuruMeter I felt that theme ("known by association") from the 
> more prominent/recent interviewees he has engaged... but my contingent 
> judgement of the *content* and *style* of the interviews counterbalanced that 
> almost to an extreme.   Which is why I brought it up here.
> 
> Implicit but likely opaque/arcane to your own references to community (self) 
> policing and ?agonism?, I feel (with limited experience so far) that Fridman 
> may well provide a regulating role within some community (of Galaxy-Brain 
> Gurus?)...
> 
> I doubt I will get the 'round t'uits but it seems like there is a tensor 
> product to be explored among these folks and their various interactions with 
> one another...   something interesting might emerge?   Maybe this only occurs 
> to me because Lex is more of a coupling agent than a primary source of any 
> ideas/theories/positions from what I've seen so far.   I haven't investigated 
> the GuruMeter guys enough to understand their methods but I take it for 
> granted they are not unserious in this work.
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> On 11/13/23 10:08, Steve Smith wrote: 
>>> It seems (maybe only to me?) that "will" is what defines the intersection 
>>> of memory and imagination?   The free-will-less-ness-ers among us (ala 
>>> Sopolsky 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> )
>>>  may find this an entirely specious thing to consider or discuss (though 
>>> without free will, what means "specious" or "discuss" or "consider" sans 
>>> free-will?). 
>>> 
>>> I recently discovered Lex Fridman's podcasts 
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  and was quite surprised by several things (albeit with very limited 
>>> sampling... all of his most recent interview with Musk and a bit of his 
>>> interview with Isaacson and about half of the Harari one):   I don't 
>>> significantly disagree with the general mistrust of Musk in his 
>>> Autistic-ish style and affect, but I'd say that Lex brings out the best in 
>>> him, showing him to be capable of thoughtful and even empathetic-ish 
>>> observations.  As I understand it (from my reading of Isaacson's biography 
>>> of Musk) brother Kimball may also be a significantly similar "regulating 
>>> influence" on Elon.   Grimes maybe, maybe not.  The other mothers of his 
>>> children, same-same... probably each and all of them for a period of time 
>>> or within certain frameworks.   And again, same with the children... though 
>>> maybe projection on my part having been moderately well-regulated in 
>>> several modes by my own children during each of their phases (right up to 
>>> their current middle-agedness). 
>>> 
>>> As an aside, Fridman's other interviews also all sound potentially 
>>> fascinating... though I cringe at the fact/thought of interviews with 
>>> Netanyahu, KanYE, Kushner, Rogan... the commentary I've read around 
>>> those interviews tends to skew toward "how could you normalize (amplify?) 
>>> those A**holes by even giving them the time of the day???!!!?".   Lex's 
>>> interviews are definitely long-form (1-2 hours) 

Re: [FRIAM] Theil

[Steve Smith]

On 11/13/23 12:06 PM, glen wrote:

You might want to check the Gurometer. Lex has an entry:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Oe-af4_OmzLJavktcSKGfP0wmxCX0ppP8n_Tvi9l_yc/edit?usp=sharing 



While Lex's scores are relatively low compared to some of the wackos 
on the list, we are known by association. And many of Lex's guests 
score relatively high.


Fascinating resource,  thanks!  You are a veritable font (fount) of 
things like this that I should probably be able to find for myself.


I had to look a little to find a key to the columns of the table, I 
don't know if this is the preferred or only one, but it seemed close 
enough to be useful for my purposes:


   https://techhenzy.com/gurometer/

I haven't listened to enough of Lex's podcasts (did I mention 1-2 hours 
each?!) to be able to evaluate what his "coupling" is with his guests... 
even without the GuruMeter I felt that theme ("known by association") 
from the more prominent/recent interviewees he has engaged... but my 
contingent judgement of the *content* and *style* of the interviews 
counterbalanced that almost to an extreme.   Which is why I brought it 
up here.


Implicit but likely opaque/arcane to your own references to community 
(self) policing and ?agonism?, I feel (with limited experience so far) 
that Fridman may well provide a regulating role within some community 
(of Galaxy-Brain Gurus?)...


I doubt I will get the 'round t'uits but it seems like there is a tensor 
product to be explored among these folks and their various interactions 
with one another...   something interesting might emerge?   Maybe this 
only occurs to me because Lex is more of a coupling agent than a primary 
source of any ideas/theories/positions from what I've seen so far.   I 
haven't investigated the GuruMeter guys enough to understand their 
methods but I take it for granted they are not unserious in this work.





On 11/13/23 10:08, Steve Smith wrote:
It seems (maybe only to me?) that "will" is what defines the 
intersection of memory and imagination? The free-will-less-ness-ers 
among us (ala Sopolsky 
) 
may find this an entirely specious thing to consider or discuss 
(though without free will, what means "specious" or "discuss" or 
"consider" sans free-will?).


I recently discovered Lex Fridman's podcasts 
 and was quite surprised by several 
things (albeit with very limited sampling... all of his most recent 
interview with Musk and a bit of his interview with Isaacson and 
about half of the Harari one):   I don't significantly disagree with 
the general mistrust of Musk in his Autistic-ish style and affect, 
but I'd say that Lex brings out the best in him, showing him to be 
capable of thoughtful and even empathetic-ish observations.  As I 
understand it (from my reading of Isaacson's biography of Musk) 
brother Kimball may also be a significantly similar "regulating 
influence" on Elon.   Grimes maybe, maybe not.  The other mothers of 
his children, same-same... probably each and all of them for a period 
of time or within certain frameworks.   And again, same with the 
children... though maybe projection on my part having been moderately 
well-regulated in several modes by my own children during each of 
their phases (right up to their current middle-agedness).


As an aside, Fridman's other interviews also all sound potentially 
fascinating... though I cringe at the fact/thought of interviews with 
Netanyahu, KanYE, Kushner, Rogan... the commentary I've read 
around those interviews tends to skew toward "how could you normalize 
(amplify?) those A**holes by even giving them the time of the 
day???!!!?".   Lex's interviews are definitely long-form (1-2 hours) 
compared to today's tik-tok/ad-jingle/bumper-sticker/snark-pith 
calibrated sound-bitery.    I find myself avoiding them for this 
reason (not wanting to commit to listening past some of my own 
prejudices long enough to hear what they are really about?) but 
recognize (and have already begun to practice) that as with long-form 
written journalism, I can take it in bits, like I might eat a rich 
holiday meal... not try to gulp it down quickly in one sitting like a 
TV-dinner (for you X-ers, "Hot-Pocket", and Millenials == "??") for 
the mind.


My recent fascination with Deacon's "Teleodynamics", Jeff Hawkins' 
take on the structure/function of the neocortex and Ian McGilchrist's 
updated  take on brain bicameralism (Master and Emissary 
) feeds 
into this question of the intersection of memory and imagination and 
the implications of Transformer Models and other Generative Models in 
general.   My direct experience with GPT-4 and DALL-E is significant 
(many 10s of hours of engagement) but still a drop in the bucket.  
There are times when I feel 

Re: [FRIAM] Theil

[Frank Wimberly]

I'm surprised Stuart Kauffman isn't in there.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Mon, Nov 13, 2023, 5:31 PM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> I'm too lazy to run a kmeans now.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Nov 13, 2023, at 12:06 PM, glen  wrote:
> >
> > You might want to check the Gurometer. Lex has an entry:
> >
> >
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Oe-af4_OmzLJavktcSKGfP0wmxCX0ppP8n_Tvi9l_yc/edit?usp=sharing
> >
> > While Lex's scores are relatively low compared to some of the wackos on
> the list, we are known by association. And many of Lex's guests score
> relatively high.
> >
> >> On 11/13/23 10:08, Steve Smith wrote:
> >> It seems (maybe only to me?) that "will" is what defines the
> intersection of memory and imagination?   The free-will-less-ness-ers among
> us (ala Sopolsky <
> https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/oct/24/determined-life-without-free-will-by-robert-sapolsky-review-the-hard-science-of-decisions>)
> may find this an entirely specious thing to consider or discuss (though
> without free will, what means "specious" or "discuss" or "consider" sans
> free-will?).
> >> I recently discovered Lex Fridman's podcasts <
> https://lexfridman.com/podcast/> and was quite surprised by several
> things (albeit with very limited sampling... all of his most recent
> interview with Musk and a bit of his interview with Isaacson and about half
> of the Harari one):   I don't significantly disagree with the general
> mistrust of Musk in his Autistic-ish style and affect, but I'd say that Lex
> brings out the best in him, showing him to be capable of thoughtful and
> even empathetic-ish observations.  As I understand it (from my reading of
> Isaacson's biography of Musk) brother Kimball may also be a significantly
> similar "regulating influence" on Elon.   Grimes maybe, maybe not.  The
> other mothers of his children, same-same... probably each and all of them
> for a period of time or within certain frameworks.   And again, same with
> the children... though maybe projection on my part having been moderately
> well-regulated in several modes by my own children during each of their
> phases (right up to their current middle-agedness).
> >> As an aside, Fridman's other interviews also all sound potentially
> fascinating... though I cringe at the fact/thought of interviews with
> Netanyahu, KanYE, Kushner, Rogan... the commentary I've read around
> those interviews tends to skew toward "how could you normalize (amplify?)
> those A**holes by even giving them the time of the day???!!!?".   Lex's
> interviews are definitely long-form (1-2 hours) compared to today's
> tik-tok/ad-jingle/bumper-sticker/snark-pith calibrated sound-bitery.I
> find myself avoiding them for this reason (not wanting to commit to
> listening past some of my own prejudices long enough to hear what they are
> really about?) but recognize (and have already begun to practice) that as
> with long-form written journalism, I can take it in bits, like I might eat
> a rich holiday meal... not try to gulp it down quickly in one sitting like
> a TV-dinner (for you X-ers, "Hot-Pocket", and Millenials == "??") for the
> mind.
> >> My recent fascination with Deacon's "Teleodynamics", Jeff Hawkins' take
> on the structure/function of the neocortex and Ian McGilchrist's updated
> take on brain bicameralism (Master and Emissary <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Master_and_His_Emissary>) feeds into
> this question of the intersection of memory and imagination and the
> implications of Transformer Models and other Generative Models in general.
>  My direct experience with GPT-4 and DALL-E is significant (many 10s of
> hours of engagement) but still a drop in the bucket.  There are times when
> I feel that all I've done is engaged with an incredibly high-dimensional
> french-curve/bezier spline and thereby been able to smoothly
> interpolate/extrapolate a handful of interesting (to me) data points into
> what feels like a powerful elaboration of what is implied by said curve-fit
> in the past (unknown knowns?) and future (unknown unknowns)?When I'm
> not totally enraptured by the (apparent?) novelty (relative to my
> expectations/predictions) of it's responses I'm generally disappointed at
> it's limited creativity...   and left puzzling over the question of
> "novelty vs creativity".
> >> Bumble,
> >>  - Steve
> >>> On 11/13/23 10:27 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> >>> It seems to me that neither Musk and Thiel are interested in the
> unknown. They are interested in doing things they can already imagine.
> For Musk I thought that was because it is how he raises money.   Now I
> think he is not imagining consciousness in a, say, a transporter pattern
> buffer, he imagines life on the Enterprise bridge in his body.   Rockets
> are comparatively science fictiony for people that can't imagine transport
> without a car, so he gets some points for that.
>  On Nov 13, 2023, at 

Re: [FRIAM] Theil

[Marcus Daniels]

I'm too lazy to run a kmeans now.   

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 13, 2023, at 12:06 PM, glen  wrote:
> 
> You might want to check the Gurometer. Lex has an entry:
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Oe-af4_OmzLJavktcSKGfP0wmxCX0ppP8n_Tvi9l_yc/edit?usp=sharing
> 
> While Lex's scores are relatively low compared to some of the wackos on the 
> list, we are known by association. And many of Lex's guests score relatively 
> high.
> 
>> On 11/13/23 10:08, Steve Smith wrote:
>> It seems (maybe only to me?) that "will" is what defines the intersection of 
>> memory and imagination?   The free-will-less-ness-ers among us (ala Sopolsky 
>> )
>>  may find this an entirely specious thing to consider or discuss (though 
>> without free will, what means "specious" or "discuss" or "consider" sans 
>> free-will?).
>> I recently discovered Lex Fridman's podcasts 
>>  and was quite surprised by several things 
>> (albeit with very limited sampling... all of his most recent interview with 
>> Musk and a bit of his interview with Isaacson and about half of the Harari 
>> one):   I don't significantly disagree with the general mistrust of Musk in 
>> his Autistic-ish style and affect, but I'd say that Lex brings out the best 
>> in him, showing him to be capable of thoughtful and even empathetic-ish 
>> observations.  As I understand it (from my reading of Isaacson's biography 
>> of Musk) brother Kimball may also be a significantly similar "regulating 
>> influence" on Elon.   Grimes maybe, maybe not.  The other mothers of his 
>> children, same-same... probably each and all of them for a period of time or 
>> within certain frameworks.   And again, same with the children... though 
>> maybe projection on my part having been moderately well-regulated in several 
>> modes by my own children during each of their phases (right up to their 
>> current middle-agedness).
>> As an aside, Fridman's other interviews also all sound potentially 
>> fascinating... though I cringe at the fact/thought of interviews with 
>> Netanyahu, KanYE, Kushner, Rogan... the commentary I've read around 
>> those interviews tends to skew toward "how could you normalize (amplify?) 
>> those A**holes by even giving them the time of the day???!!!?".   Lex's 
>> interviews are definitely long-form (1-2 hours) compared to today's 
>> tik-tok/ad-jingle/bumper-sticker/snark-pith calibrated sound-bitery.I 
>> find myself avoiding them for this reason (not wanting to commit to 
>> listening past some of my own prejudices long enough to hear what they are 
>> really about?) but recognize (and have already begun to practice) that as 
>> with long-form written journalism, I can take it in bits, like I might eat a 
>> rich holiday meal... not try to gulp it down quickly in one sitting like a 
>> TV-dinner (for you X-ers, "Hot-Pocket", and Millenials == "??") for the mind.
>> My recent fascination with Deacon's "Teleodynamics", Jeff Hawkins' take on 
>> the structure/function of the neocortex and Ian McGilchrist's updated  take 
>> on brain bicameralism (Master and Emissary 
>> ) feeds into this 
>> question of the intersection of memory and imagination and the implications 
>> of Transformer Models and other Generative Models in general.   My direct 
>> experience with GPT-4 and DALL-E is significant (many 10s of hours of 
>> engagement) but still a drop in the bucket.  There are times when I feel 
>> that all I've done is engaged with an incredibly high-dimensional 
>> french-curve/bezier spline and thereby been able to smoothly 
>> interpolate/extrapolate a handful of interesting (to me) data points into 
>> what feels like a powerful elaboration of what is implied by said curve-fit 
>> in the past (unknown knowns?) and future (unknown unknowns)?When I'm not 
>> totally enraptured by the (apparent?) novelty (relative to my 
>> expectations/predictions) of it's responses I'm generally disappointed at 
>> it's limited creativity...   and left puzzling over the question of "novelty 
>> vs creativity".
>> Bumble,
>>  - Steve
>>> On 11/13/23 10:27 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>> It seems to me that neither Musk and Thiel are interested in the unknown. 
>>> They are interested in doing things they can already imagine.For Musk I 
>>> thought that was because it is how he raises money.   Now I think he is not 
>>> imagining consciousness in a, say, a transporter pattern buffer, he 
>>> imagines life on the Enterprise bridge in his body.   Rockets are 
>>> comparatively science fictiony for people that can't imagine transport 
>>> without a car, so he gets some points for that.
 On Nov 13, 2023, at 10:11 AM, glen  wrote:
 
 There's an interesting parallel between the Stross and Gellman pieces: 
 Stross 

Re: [FRIAM] Theil

[glen]

You might want to check the Gurometer. Lex has an entry:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Oe-af4_OmzLJavktcSKGfP0wmxCX0ppP8n_Tvi9l_yc/edit?usp=sharing

While Lex's scores are relatively low compared to some of the wackos on the 
list, we are known by association. And many of Lex's guests score relatively 
high.

On 11/13/23 10:08, Steve Smith wrote:

It seems (maybe only to me?) that "will" is what defines the intersection of memory and imagination?   The 
free-will-less-ness-ers among us (ala Sopolsky 
)
 may find this an entirely specious thing to consider or discuss (though without free will, what means "specious" 
or "discuss" or "consider" sans free-will?).

I recently discovered Lex Fridman's podcasts  and was quite surprised by several things (albeit with very limited sampling... all of his most recent interview with Musk and a bit of his interview with Isaacson and about half of the Harari one):   I don't significantly disagree with the general mistrust of Musk in his Autistic-ish style and affect, but I'd say that Lex brings out the best in him, showing him to be capable of thoughtful and even empathetic-ish observations.  As I understand it (from my reading of Isaacson's biography of Musk) brother Kimball may also be a significantly similar "regulating influence" on Elon.   Grimes maybe, maybe not.  The other mothers of his children, same-same... probably each and all of them for a period of time or within certain frameworks.   And again, same with the children... though maybe projection on my part having been moderately well-regulated in several modes by my own children during each of their 
phases (right up to their current middle-agedness).


As an aside, Fridman's other interviews also all sound potentially fascinating... though I cringe at the 
fact/thought of interviews with Netanyahu, KanYE, Kushner, Rogan... the commentary I've read around those 
interviews tends to skew toward "how could you normalize (amplify?) those A**holes by even giving them 
the time of the day???!!!?".   Lex's interviews are definitely long-form (1-2 hours) compared to today's 
tik-tok/ad-jingle/bumper-sticker/snark-pith calibrated sound-bitery.    I find myself avoiding them for this 
reason (not wanting to commit to listening past some of my own prejudices long enough to hear what they are 
really about?) but recognize (and have already begun to practice) that as with long-form written journalism, 
I can take it in bits, like I might eat a rich holiday meal... not try to gulp it down quickly in one sitting 
like a TV-dinner (for you X-ers, "Hot-Pocket", and Millenials == "??") for the mind.

My recent fascination with Deacon's "Teleodynamics", Jeff Hawkins' take on the structure/function of the neocortex and Ian McGilchrist's updated  take on brain bicameralism (Master and Emissary ) feeds into this question of the intersection of memory and imagination and the implications of Transformer Models and other Generative Models in general.   My direct experience with GPT-4 and DALL-E is significant (many 10s of hours of engagement) but still a drop in the bucket.  There are times when I feel that all I've done is engaged with an incredibly high-dimensional french-curve/bezier spline and thereby been able to smoothly interpolate/extrapolate a handful of interesting (to me) data points into what feels like a powerful elaboration of what is implied by said curve-fit in the past (unknown knowns?) and future (unknown unknowns)?    When I'm not totally enraptured by the (apparent?) novelty (relative to my 
expectations/predictions) of it's responses I'm generally disappointed at it's limited creativity...   and left puzzling over the question of "novelty vs creativity".


Bumble,

  - Steve

On 11/13/23 10:27 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

It seems to me that neither Musk and Thiel are interested in the unknown. They 
are interested in doing things they can already imagine.For Musk I thought 
that was because it is how he raises money.   Now I think he is not imagining 
consciousness in a, say, a transporter pattern buffer, he imagines life on the 
Enterprise bridge in his body.   Rockets are comparatively science fictiony for 
people that can't imagine transport without a car, so he gets some points for 
that.

On Nov 13, 2023, at 10:11 AM, glen  wrote:

There's an interesting parallel between the Stross and Gellman pieces: Stross 
both laments and implicitly appreciates the bureaucracy of getting a book 
published, where Thiel's aggrieved by the bureaucracy of societal evolution.

It reminds me of the engineering-vs-biology dichotomy (yes, false, like all of 
them) I came to appreciate after being exposed to enough biomimetics (to kill a 
horse). Some of us see the world and think 

Re: [FRIAM] Theil

[Steve Smith]

It seems (maybe only to me?) that "will" is what defines the 
intersection of memory and imagination?   The free-will-less-ness-ers 
among us (ala Sopolsky 
) 
may find this an entirely specious thing to consider or discuss (though 
without free will, what means "specious" or "discuss" or "consider" sans 
free-will?).


I recently discovered Lex Fridman's podcasts 
 and was quite surprised by several 
things (albeit with very limited sampling... all of his most recent 
interview with Musk and a bit of his interview with Isaacson and about 
half of the Harari one):   I don't significantly disagree with the 
general mistrust of Musk in his Autistic-ish style and affect, but I'd 
say that Lex brings out the best in him, showing him to be capable of 
thoughtful and even empathetic-ish observations.  As I understand it 
(from my reading of Isaacson's biography of Musk) brother Kimball may 
also be a significantly similar "regulating influence" on Elon.   Grimes 
maybe, maybe not.  The other mothers of his children, same-same... 
probably each and all of them for a period of time or within certain 
frameworks.   And again, same with the children... though maybe 
projection on my part having been moderately well-regulated in several 
modes by my own children during each of their phases (right up to their 
current middle-agedness).


As an aside, Fridman's other interviews also all sound potentially 
fascinating... though I cringe at the fact/thought of interviews with 
Netanyahu, KanYE, Kushner, Rogan... the commentary I've read around 
those interviews tends to skew toward "how could you normalize 
(amplify?) those A**holes by even giving them the time of the 
day???!!!?".   Lex's interviews are definitely long-form (1-2 hours) 
compared to today's tik-tok/ad-jingle/bumper-sticker/snark-pith 
calibrated sound-bitery.    I find myself avoiding them for this reason 
(not wanting to commit to listening past some of my own prejudices long 
enough to hear what they are really about?) but recognize (and have 
already begun to practice) that as with long-form written journalism, I 
can take it in bits, like I might eat a rich holiday meal... not try to 
gulp it down quickly in one sitting like a TV-dinner (for you X-ers, 
"Hot-Pocket", and Millenials == "??") for the mind.


My recent fascination with Deacon's "Teleodynamics", Jeff Hawkins' take 
on the structure/function of the neocortex and Ian McGilchrist's 
updated  take on brain bicameralism (Master and Emissary 
) feeds into 
this question of the intersection of memory and imagination and the 
implications of Transformer Models and other Generative Models in 
general.   My direct experience with GPT-4 and DALL-E is significant 
(many 10s of hours of engagement) but still a drop in the bucket.  There 
are times when I feel that all I've done is engaged with an incredibly 
high-dimensional french-curve/bezier spline and thereby been able to 
smoothly interpolate/extrapolate a handful of interesting (to me) data 
points into what feels like a powerful elaboration of what is implied by 
said curve-fit in the past (unknown knowns?) and future (unknown 
unknowns)?    When I'm not totally enraptured by the (apparent?) novelty 
(relative to my expectations/predictions) of it's responses I'm 
generally disappointed at it's limited creativity...   and left puzzling 
over the question of "novelty vs creativity".


Bumble,

 - Steve

On 11/13/23 10:27 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

It seems to me that neither Musk and Thiel are interested in the unknown. They 
are interested in doing things they can already imagine.For Musk I thought 
that was because it is how he raises money.   Now I think he is not imagining 
consciousness in a, say, a transporter pattern buffer, he imagines life on the 
Enterprise bridge in his body.   Rockets are comparatively science fictiony for 
people that can't imagine transport without a car, so he gets some points for 
that.

On Nov 13, 2023, at 10:11 AM, glen  wrote:

There's an interesting parallel between the Stross and Gellman pieces: Stross 
both laments and implicitly appreciates the bureaucracy of getting a book 
published, where Thiel's aggrieved by the bureaucracy of societal evolution.

It reminds me of the engineering-vs-biology dichotomy (yes, false, like all of 
them) I came to appreciate after being exposed to enough biomimetics (to kill a 
horse). Some of us see the world and think about how to change it, build a 
better world ... or perhaps destroy the world, whatever floats your inner 
engineer. And some of us see the world and are awestruck, hypnotized, baffled 
by its qualities (whether beautiful or horrifying). It's easy to give the 
latter a pass and denigrate the former when confronted with, 

Re: [FRIAM] Theil

[Marcus Daniels]

It seems to me that neither Musk and Thiel are interested in the unknown. They 
are interested in doing things they can already imagine.For Musk I thought 
that was because it is how he raises money.   Now I think he is not imagining 
consciousness in a, say, a transporter pattern buffer, he imagines life on the 
Enterprise bridge in his body.   Rockets are comparatively science fictiony for 
people that can't imagine transport without a car, so he gets some points for 
that.
> On Nov 13, 2023, at 10:11 AM, glen  wrote:
> 
> There's an interesting parallel between the Stross and Gellman pieces: 
> Stross both laments and implicitly appreciates the bureaucracy of getting a 
> book published, where Thiel's aggrieved by the bureaucracy of societal 
> evolution.
> 
> It reminds me of the engineering-vs-biology dichotomy (yes, false, like all 
> of them) I came to appreciate after being exposed to enough biomimetics (to 
> kill a horse). Some of us see the world and think about how to change it, 
> build a better world ... or perhaps destroy the world, whatever floats your 
> inner engineer. And some of us see the world and are awestruck, hypnotized, 
> baffled by its qualities (whether beautiful or horrifying). It's easy to give 
> the latter a pass and denigrate the former when confronted with, say, 
> butterflies or the Grand Canyon. And it's easy to give the former a pass when 
> confronted with poverty and war.
> 
> But the next time you're at the DMV or arguing with some poor sucker manning 
> the phones at the IRS, it can be useful to remember the falseness of the 
> dichtomy. Similarly, when all you want to do is sleep under the stars and 
> those damned gnats keep homing into your ears, it can be useful to think like 
> an engineer.
> 
> Policy and science fiction aren't that far apart.
> 
>> On 11/10/23 13:46, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> original.png
>> Peter Thiel Is Taking a Break From Democracy 
>> 
> 
>> On 11/10/23 11:26, Roger Critchlow wrote:
>> Text of Charlie Stross' talk to Next Frontiers Applied Fiction Day in 
>> Stuttgart on Friday November 10th, 2023, concerning where the 
>> techno-industrial elite found their horrible philosophies/secular religions.
>> https://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2023/11/dont-create-the-torment-nexus.html
> 
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
> 
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  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Theil

[glen]

There's an interesting parallel between the Stross and Gellman pieces: Stross 
both laments and implicitly appreciates the bureaucracy of getting a book 
published, where Thiel's aggrieved by the bureaucracy of societal evolution.

It reminds me of the engineering-vs-biology dichotomy (yes, false, like all of 
them) I came to appreciate after being exposed to enough biomimetics (to kill a 
horse). Some of us see the world and think about how to change it, build a 
better world ... or perhaps destroy the world, whatever floats your inner 
engineer. And some of us see the world and are awestruck, hypnotized, baffled 
by its qualities (whether beautiful or horrifying). It's easy to give the 
latter a pass and denigrate the former when confronted with, say, butterflies 
or the Grand Canyon. And it's easy to give the former a pass when confronted 
with poverty and war.

But the next time you're at the DMV or arguing with some poor sucker manning 
the phones at the IRS, it can be useful to remember the falseness of the 
dichtomy. Similarly, when all you want to do is sleep under the stars and those 
damned gnats keep homing into your ears, it can be useful to think like an 
engineer.

Policy and science fiction aren't that far apart.

On 11/10/23 13:46, Marcus Daniels wrote:

original.png
Peter Thiel Is Taking a Break From Democracy 



On 11/10/23 11:26, Roger Critchlow wrote:

Text of Charlie Stross' talk to Next Frontiers Applied Fiction Day in Stuttgart 
on Friday November 10th, 2023, concerning where the techno-industrial elite 
found their horrible philosophies/secular religions.

https://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2023/11/dont-create-the-torment-nexus.html 


--
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/