Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Photogrammetry using Drone Imagery of Santa Fe Institute

[Parks, Raymond]

Aha, so your photogrammetric survey is equivalent to an old-fashioned chain, 
theodolite, and geometric calculations all done using comparative imagery, GPS, 
and geometric calculations?  How precise does your pole length need to be to 
provide precise enough comparisons?

This system could also make use of existing photographs from sources such as 
Panoramio.  I would be interested in the software algorithms you are using 
since we sometimes portray adversaries who use Google Earth and Panoramio for 
their planning.

The knowbeforeyoufly site is a good source of information for drone users, 
particularly recreational.

I'm afraid that the toothpaste may be out of the tube when it comes to privacy 
in pointcloud data.  There's so much data out there already that can be mined, 
I'm afraid that any future collections with privacy protections would become 
irrelevant except for new material.  To be successful, the privacy effort would 
need to somehow include legacy in an easy to implement manner.

All of this, so far, is about imagery, either photographic or lidar.  I would 
like to do war-flying, in the sense of detecting and tracking RF from a 
system/site under assessment.  I'm still working on how we could do that, 
especially since we have to get a COA for each specific use under the current 
rules.  We currently use an open-source tool that creates a kml of signal 
strength for display on Google Earth, but the "height" of the resulting 
polygons is actually just a measure of signal strength at the ground level 
where our radio received the signal.  If we could get that signal strength in 
three dimensions, we would have a much better chance of isolating the source.

  Isolating the source of a signal is a basic problem with wireless 
red-teaming.  We have done WiFi surveys of a target facility, discovered what 
appeared to be a computer advertising for an ad-hoc network, but in an urban 
environment it's almost impossible to be sure of the location.  The real bad 
guys would have no compunction about cracking all the networks they see until 
they find the one they want, but we must avoid collateral damage.  If we are 
doing a no-notice, non-cooperative engagement, we can't easily walk around with 
attenuators in our antenna connection until we isolate the source in the target 
site.

  I wonder if a 3D signal map would constitute a point cloud?

Ray Parks
Consilient Heuristician/IDART Old-Timer
V: 505-844-4024  M: 505-238-9359  P: 505-951-6084
NIPR: rcpa...@sandia.gov
SIPR: rcpar...@sandia.doe.sgov.gov (send 
NIPR reminder)
JWICS: dopa...@doe.ic.gov (send NIPR reminder)



On Jun 16, 2015, at 11:51 AM, Stephen Guerin wrote:

Good and important questions, Ray.

Our bit was doing a ground-based photogrammetric survey using mobile phones and 
a 24' painter extension poles. The use was for research in methods of 
collecting structure and activities data for Urban Studies. eg, does 
photogrammetry from the ground approximate LiDAR measurements of building 
heights in areas of the world where LIDAR coverage is sparse. And can we 
capture and monitor in real time.

While we were surveying, a member of the SFI and hobbyist/recreational drone 
user noticed our work and volunteered drone imagery. Imagery was not sold nor 
contracted for and permission was granted to fly after hours when staff and 
students were gone.

Of course I am not an authority in the legal issues around drones but a 
resource that addresses this is http://knowbeforeyoufly.org/.  It explains how 
public entities and commercial user have more restrictions than recreational 
user.

At a larger scale, we think there is a strong need to have privacy embedded in 
pointcloud data - very similar to HIPAA regulations intent that looks for 
aggregate benefit while protecting individual privacy. We think there's 
distributed ways of aggregating individual's pointcloud data without using 
centralized servers while using agents to mediate questions asked of the data. 
Somewhat inspiring to us is the idea of "Souveillance" instead of 
"Surveillance": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sousveillance

We'd like to talk with anyone that interested in this space and applications.

-S

--- -. .   ..-. .. ...    - .-- ---   ..-. .. ... 
stephen.gue...@redfish.com
1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505
office: (505) 995-0206  mobile: (505) 577-5828
tw: @redfishgroup  skype: redfishgroup
redfish.com  |  simtable.com

On Tue, Jun 16, 2015 at 9:44 AM, Parks, Raymond 
mailto:rcpa...@sandia.gov>> wrote:
So, if we did this as part of an engagement, we would need permission from the 
owner of the property, possibly need permission from owners of adjacent 
properties that might be filmed, and the property owner would need to post 
notices that video surveillance is taking place to warn all staff and v

Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Photogrammetry using Drone Imagery of Santa Fe Institute

[Stephen Guerin]

Good and important questions, Ray.

Our bit was doing a ground-based photogrammetric survey using mobile phones
and a 24' painter extension poles. The use was for research in methods of
collecting structure and activities data for Urban Studies. eg, does
photogrammetry from the ground approximate LiDAR measurements of building
heights in areas of the world where LIDAR coverage is sparse. And can we
capture and monitor in real time.

While we were surveying, a member of the SFI and hobbyist/recreational
drone user noticed our work and volunteered drone imagery. Imagery was not
sold nor contracted for and permission was granted to fly after hours when
staff and students were gone.

Of course I am not an authority in the legal issues around drones but a
resource that addresses this is http://knowbeforeyoufly.org/.  It explains
how public entities and commercial user have more restrictions than
recreational user.

At a larger scale, we think there is a strong need to have privacy embedded
in pointcloud data - very similar to HIPAA regulations intent that looks
for aggregate benefit while protecting individual privacy. We think there's
distributed ways of aggregating individual's pointcloud data without using
centralized servers while using agents to mediate questions asked of the
data. Somewhat inspiring to us is the idea of "Souveillance" instead of
"Surveillance": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sousveillance

We'd like to talk with anyone that interested in this space and
applications.

-S

--- -. .   ..-. .. ...    - .-- ---   ..-. .. ... 
stephen.gue...@redfish.com
1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505
office: (505) 995-0206  mobile: (505) 577-5828
tw: @redfishgroup  skype: redfishgroup
redfish.com  |  simtable.com

On Tue, Jun 16, 2015 at 9:44 AM, Parks, Raymond  wrote:

>  So, if we did this as part of an engagement, we would need permission
> from the owner of the property, possibly need permission from owners of
> adjacent properties that might be filmed, and the property owner would need
> to post notices that video surveillance is taking place to warn all staff
> and visitors.  These rules come down to us from DOE and from imposing them
> on ourselves.  Do similiar privacy/authority rules apply to you?
>
>  Ray Parks
> Consilient Heuristician/IDART Old-Timer
> V: 505-844-4024  M: 505-238-9359  P: 505-951-6084
> NIPR: rcpa...@sandia.gov
> SIPR: rcpar...@sandia.doe.sgov.gov (send NIPR reminder)
> JWICS: dopa...@doe.ic.gov (send NIPR reminder)
>
>
>
>  On Jun 15, 2015, at 9:01 PM, Stephen Guerin wrote:
>
>  Here's some 3D photogrammetry results from Friday's drone flyover of
> SFI.
>
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YxfIMCDuHA
>
>  We're working on efficient pipelines for recovering and sharing realtime
> pointclouds with mobile phones.
>
>  -S
>   --- -. .   ..-. .. ...    - .-- ---   ..-. .. ... 
> stephen.gue...@redfish.com
> 1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505
> office: (505) 995-0206  mobile: (505) 577-5828
>  tw: @redfishgroup  skype: redfishgroup
> redfish.com  |  simtable.com
>  
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Photogrammetry using Drone Imagery of Santa Fe Institute

[Parks, Raymond]

So, if we did this as part of an engagement, we would need permission from the 
owner of the property, possibly need permission from owners of adjacent 
properties that might be filmed, and the property owner would need to post 
notices that video surveillance is taking place to warn all staff and visitors. 
 These rules come down to us from DOE and from imposing them on ourselves.  Do 
similiar privacy/authority rules apply to you?

Ray Parks
Consilient Heuristician/IDART Old-Timer
V: 505-844-4024  M: 505-238-9359  P: 505-951-6084
NIPR: rcpa...@sandia.gov
SIPR: rcpar...@sandia.doe.sgov.gov (send 
NIPR reminder)
JWICS: dopa...@doe.ic.gov (send NIPR reminder)



On Jun 15, 2015, at 9:01 PM, Stephen Guerin wrote:

Here's some 3D photogrammetry results from Friday's drone flyover of SFI.

  
   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YxfIMCDuHA

We're working on efficient pipelines for recovering and sharing realtime 
pointclouds with mobile phones.

-S
--- -. .   ..-. .. ...    - .-- ---   ..-. .. ... 
stephen.gue...@redfish.com
1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505
office: (505) 995-0206  mobile: (505) 577-5828
tw: @redfishgroup  skype: redfishgroup
redfish.com  |  simtable.com

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com