Re: [FRIAM] Tripping on the Rye: She's a Witch! How do you know? . (Re: basis for prediction — forked from the tail end of anthropological observtions)

[Marcus Daniels]

Stephen writes:

< Though if you listen closely, it was already offered right before "duck" :-) >

Ah ha!  Only my subconscious picked it up, I guess.  :-)

Marcus

From: Friam  on behalf of Stephen Guerin 

Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2020 12:37 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Tripping on the Rye: She's a Witch! How do you know? . 
(Re: basis for prediction — forked from the tail end of anthropological 
observtions)

Marcus,

Yes, Lead is a good guess. Though if you listen closely, it was already offered 
right before "duck" :-)
  https://youtu.be/zrzMhU_4m-g?t=157


On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 12:32 PM Marcus Daniels 
mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
How about lead?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/lead-in-americas-water-systems-is-a-national-problem/
https://www.nrdc.org/resources/whats-your-water-flint-and-beyond
https://www.vox.com/2016/1/21/10811004/lead-poisoning-cities-us

Marcus


From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> on 
behalf of Steven A Smith mailto:sasm...@swcp.com>>
Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2020 12:21 PM
To: friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com> 
mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Tripping on the Rye: She's a Witch! How do you know? . 
(Re: basis for prediction — forked from the tail end of anthropological 
observtions)



SG -
I was completely ignorant of the history/impacts of 
ergot<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergot> before this thread. Fascinating!

so now you have added (upped the game of) "ergot" to your argot!

Language of thieves?!

https://grammarist.com/usage/argot-vs-ergot/

It might be notable that Rye Whiskey (and wild, wild women) is my preferred 
(hard) drink of choice...  not sure if there is evidence or precedent of rye 
whiskey made from "spoiled Rye".  Also that my cover/nurse crop of choice is a 
mix of winter-wheat/winter-rye here on the "homestead".   I haven't tried 
actually eating or fermenting any yet.

-SS

In this context, we can think about Dave's different ways of knowing when we 
show cause and evidence that someone is a witch.

  1.  Science: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g
  2.   LSD: Ergo the Ergot: LSD, Causation and Evidence 
https://www.vox.com/2015/10/29/9620542/salem-witch-trials-ergotism




On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 7:47 AM Prof David West 
mailto:profw...@fastmail.fm>> wrote:
addendum:  I was interrupted mid-post

Just as a new strain of ergot might pose a severe challenge to hybridized 
wheat, a new "strain" of problem might pose a severe challenge to a hybridized 
mode of thinking.

I would posit that challenges like Covid-19, global warming, and even The 
Donald are akin to a new strain of ergot vis-a-vis wheat. Our ability to 
address or solve those challenges might be, I am certain it would be, enhanced 
if we could bring to bear some "heritage modes of thought."

My expressed antipathy for Science derives from the tendency of scientists to 
simply dismiss any alternative ideas or arguments as anti-scientific and 
therefore invalid.

The reason I said that you and I are in fundamental agreement, is that, I 
think, both of us would accept into our garden of thought" any sufficiently 
viable, and tasty, mode of thinking.

davew


On Sun, Apr 19, 2020, at 6:24 AM, Prof David West wrote:
> Nick,
>
> There is truth in what you say, but only a bit.
>
> I have certainly spoken as if "Science was a bunch of nasty people with
> vested interests acting in an exclusionary manner."
>
> Hyperbole.
>
> A better metaphor / analogy would be the way we have hybridized our
> food supply; e.g. 90 percent of all dairy cows have one of two bulls in
> their ancestry, there are one or two tomato hybrids, one or two strains
> of rice, wheat, corn, etc.
>
> This creates a huge vulnerability — a novel pest or disease and presto,
> no food supply.
>
> Now imagine that there are multiple species of investigation, thinking,
> knowledge.
>
> Since the Age of Enlightenment, the western world has been hell bent on
> hybridizing but one of them — Formalism (aka, roughly, Science).
>
> Yes, I believe that Formalism has attained such a privileged status
> that it tolerates no criticism and critics are "excommunicated" with
> prejudice.
>
> I would like to think of myself as someone interested in growing
> heritage tomatoes in my garden and marveling at the differences in
> taste and texture and finding very deep value from the use of them in
> culinary creations.
>
> davew
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 18, 2020, at 8:58 PM, 
> thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Dave,
> >
> > No, wait a minute!  Thou slenderest me!   For y

Re: [FRIAM] Tripping on the Rye: She's a Witch! How do you know? . (Re: basis for prediction — forked from the tail end of anthropological observtions)

[Stephen Guerin]

Marcus,

Yes, Lead is a good guess. Though if you listen closely, it was already
offered right before "duck" :-)
  https://youtu.be/zrzMhU_4m-g?t=157


On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 12:32 PM Marcus Daniels 
wrote:

> How about lead?
>
>
> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/lead-in-americas-water-systems-is-a-national-problem/
> https://www.nrdc.org/resources/whats-your-water-flint-and-beyond
> https://www.vox.com/2016/1/21/10811004/lead-poisoning-cities-us
>
> Marcus
>
> --
> *From:* Friam  on behalf of Steven A Smith <
> sasm...@swcp.com>
> *Sent:* Sunday, April 19, 2020 12:21 PM
> *To:* friam@redfish.com 
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Tripping on the Rye: She's a Witch! How do you
> know? . (Re: basis for prediction — forked from the tail end of
> anthropological observtions)
>
>
>
> SG -
>
> I was completely ignorant of the history/impacts of ergot
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergot> before this thread. Fascinating!
>
> so now you have added (upped the game of) "ergot" to your argot!
>
> Language of thieves?!
>
> https://grammarist.com/usage/argot-vs-ergot/
>
> It might be notable that Rye Whiskey (and wild, wild women) is my
> preferred (hard) drink of choice...  not sure if there is evidence or
> precedent of rye whiskey made from "spoiled Rye".  Also that my cover/nurse
> crop of choice is a mix of winter-wheat/winter-rye here on the
> "homestead".   I haven't tried actually eating or fermenting any yet.
>
> -SS
>
>
> In this context, we can think about Dave's different ways of knowing when
> we show cause and evidence that someone is a witch.
>
>1. Science: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g
>2.  LSD: Ergo the Ergot: LSD, Causation and Evidence
>https://www.vox.com/2015/10/29/9620542/salem-witch-trials-ergotism
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 7:47 AM Prof David West 
> wrote:
>
> addendum:  I was interrupted mid-post
>
> Just as a new strain of ergot might pose a severe challenge to hybridized
> wheat, a new "strain" of problem might pose a severe challenge to a
> hybridized mode of thinking.
>
> I would posit that challenges like Covid-19, global warming, and even The
> Donald are akin to a new strain of ergot vis-a-vis wheat. Our ability to
> address or solve those challenges might be, I am certain it would be,
> enhanced if we could bring to bear some "heritage modes of thought."
>
> My expressed antipathy for Science derives from the tendency of scientists
> to simply dismiss any alternative ideas or arguments as anti-scientific and
> therefore invalid.
>
> The reason I said that you and I are in fundamental agreement, is that, I
> think, both of us would accept into our garden of thought" any sufficiently
> viable, and tasty, mode of thinking.
>
> davew
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 19, 2020, at 6:24 AM, Prof David West wrote:
> > Nick,
> >
> > There is truth in what you say, but only a bit.
> >
> > I have certainly spoken as if "Science was a bunch of nasty people with
> > vested interests acting in an exclusionary manner."
> >
> > Hyperbole.
> >
> > A better metaphor / analogy would be the way we have hybridized our
> > food supply; e.g. 90 percent of all dairy cows have one of two bulls in
> > their ancestry, there are one or two tomato hybrids, one or two strains
> > of rice, wheat, corn, etc.
> >
> > This creates a huge vulnerability — a novel pest or disease and presto,
> > no food supply.
> >
> > Now imagine that there are multiple species of investigation, thinking,
> > knowledge.
> >
> > Since the Age of Enlightenment, the western world has been hell bent on
> > hybridizing but one of them — Formalism (aka, roughly, Science).
> >
> > Yes, I believe that Formalism has attained such a privileged status
> > that it tolerates no criticism and critics are "excommunicated" with
> > prejudice.
> >
> > I would like to think of myself as someone interested in growing
> > heritage tomatoes in my garden and marveling at the differences in
> > taste and texture and finding very deep value from the use of them in
> > culinary creations.
> >
> > davew
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 18, 2020, at 8:58 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Dave,
> > >
> > > No, wait a minute!  Thou slenderest me!   For you, Science is a bunch
> > > of nasty people with vested interests. Science, on that understanding,
> > > has the power to exclude.  For me, Science is a set of practices that
>

Re: [FRIAM] Tripping on the Rye: She's a Witch! How do you know? . (Re: basis for prediction — forked from the tail end of anthropological observtions)

[Marcus Daniels]

How about lead?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/lead-in-americas-water-systems-is-a-national-problem/
https://www.nrdc.org/resources/whats-your-water-flint-and-beyond
https://www.vox.com/2016/1/21/10811004/lead-poisoning-cities-us

Marcus


From: Friam  on behalf of Steven A Smith 

Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2020 12:21 PM
To: friam@redfish.com 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Tripping on the Rye: She's a Witch! How do you know? . 
(Re: basis for prediction — forked from the tail end of anthropological 
observtions)



SG -
I was completely ignorant of the history/impacts of 
ergot<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergot> before this thread. Fascinating!

so now you have added (upped the game of) "ergot" to your argot!

Language of thieves?!

https://grammarist.com/usage/argot-vs-ergot/

It might be notable that Rye Whiskey (and wild, wild women) is my preferred 
(hard) drink of choice...  not sure if there is evidence or precedent of rye 
whiskey made from "spoiled Rye".  Also that my cover/nurse crop of choice is a 
mix of winter-wheat/winter-rye here on the "homestead".   I haven't tried 
actually eating or fermenting any yet.

-SS

In this context, we can think about Dave's different ways of knowing when we 
show cause and evidence that someone is a witch.

  1.  Science: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g
  2.   LSD: Ergo the Ergot: LSD, Causation and Evidence 
https://www.vox.com/2015/10/29/9620542/salem-witch-trials-ergotism




On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 7:47 AM Prof David West 
mailto:profw...@fastmail.fm>> wrote:
addendum:  I was interrupted mid-post

Just as a new strain of ergot might pose a severe challenge to hybridized 
wheat, a new "strain" of problem might pose a severe challenge to a hybridized 
mode of thinking.

I would posit that challenges like Covid-19, global warming, and even The 
Donald are akin to a new strain of ergot vis-a-vis wheat. Our ability to 
address or solve those challenges might be, I am certain it would be, enhanced 
if we could bring to bear some "heritage modes of thought."

My expressed antipathy for Science derives from the tendency of scientists to 
simply dismiss any alternative ideas or arguments as anti-scientific and 
therefore invalid.

The reason I said that you and I are in fundamental agreement, is that, I 
think, both of us would accept into our garden of thought" any sufficiently 
viable, and tasty, mode of thinking.

davew


On Sun, Apr 19, 2020, at 6:24 AM, Prof David West wrote:
> Nick,
>
> There is truth in what you say, but only a bit.
>
> I have certainly spoken as if "Science was a bunch of nasty people with
> vested interests acting in an exclusionary manner."
>
> Hyperbole.
>
> A better metaphor / analogy would be the way we have hybridized our
> food supply; e.g. 90 percent of all dairy cows have one of two bulls in
> their ancestry, there are one or two tomato hybrids, one or two strains
> of rice, wheat, corn, etc.
>
> This creates a huge vulnerability — a novel pest or disease and presto,
> no food supply.
>
> Now imagine that there are multiple species of investigation, thinking,
> knowledge.
>
> Since the Age of Enlightenment, the western world has been hell bent on
> hybridizing but one of them — Formalism (aka, roughly, Science).
>
> Yes, I believe that Formalism has attained such a privileged status
> that it tolerates no criticism and critics are "excommunicated" with
> prejudice.
>
> I would like to think of myself as someone interested in growing
> heritage tomatoes in my garden and marveling at the differences in
> taste and texture and finding very deep value from the use of them in
> culinary creations.
>
> davew
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 18, 2020, at 8:58 PM, 
> thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Dave,
> >
> > No, wait a minute!  Thou slenderest me!   For you, Science is a bunch
> > of nasty people with vested interests. Science, on that understanding,
> > has the power to exclude.  For me, Science is a set of practices that
> > lead to understandings of experience that endure the test of time.  It
> > is not the sort of thing that can exclude.   If pot smoking in bubble
> > baths leads to understandings that endure the test of time, then it is
> > a scientific method.  Something like that seemed to have worked for
> > Archimedes.
> >
> > Nick
> >
> > Nicholas Thompson
> > Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
> > Clark University
> > thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>
> > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redf

Re: [FRIAM] Tripping on the Rye: She's a Witch! How do you know? . (Re: basis for prediction — forked from the tail end of anthropological observtions)

[Steven A Smith]

SG -
> I was completely ignorant of the history/impacts of ergot
>  before this thread. Fascinating!

so now you have added (upped the game of) "ergot" to your argot!

Language of thieves?!

    https://grammarist.com/usage/argot-vs-ergot/

It might be notable that Rye Whiskey (and wild, wild women) is my
preferred (hard) drink of choice...  not sure if there is evidence or
precedent of rye whiskey made from "spoiled Rye".  Also that my
cover/nurse crop of choice is a mix of winter-wheat/winter-rye here on
the "homestead".   I haven't tried actually eating or fermenting any yet.

-SS

>
> In this context, we can think about Dave's different ways of knowing
> when we show cause and evidence that someone is a witch.
>
>  1. Science: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g 
>  2.  LSD: Ergo the Ergot: LSD, Causation and Evidence
> https://www.vox.com/2015/10/29/9620542/salem-witch-trials-ergotism  
>
>
>
>  
>
> On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 7:47 AM Prof David West  > wrote:
>
> addendum:  I was interrupted mid-post
>
> Just as a new strain of ergot might pose a severe challenge to
> hybridized wheat, a new "strain" of problem might pose a severe
> challenge to a hybridized mode of thinking.
>
> I would posit that challenges like Covid-19, global warming, and
> even The Donald are akin to a new strain of ergot vis-a-vis wheat.
> Our ability to address or solve those challenges might be, I am
> certain it would be, enhanced if we could bring to bear some
> "heritage modes of thought."
>
> My expressed antipathy for Science derives from the tendency of
> scientists to simply dismiss any alternative ideas or arguments as
> anti-scientific and therefore invalid.
>
> The reason I said that you and I are in fundamental agreement, is
> that, I think, both of us would accept into our garden of thought"
> any sufficiently viable, and tasty, mode of thinking.
>
> davew
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 19, 2020, at 6:24 AM, Prof David West wrote:
> > Nick,
> >
> > There is truth in what you say, but only a bit.
> >
> > I have certainly spoken as if "Science was a bunch of nasty
> people with
> > vested interests acting in an exclusionary manner."
> >
> > Hyperbole.
> >
> > A better metaphor / analogy would be the way we have hybridized our
> > food supply; e.g. 90 percent of all dairy cows have one of two
> bulls in
> > their ancestry, there are one or two tomato hybrids, one or two
> strains
> > of rice, wheat, corn, etc.
> >
> > This creates a huge vulnerability — a novel pest or disease and
> presto,
> > no food supply.
> >
> > Now imagine that there are multiple species of investigation,
> thinking,
> > knowledge.
> >
> > Since the Age of Enlightenment, the western world has been hell
> bent on
> > hybridizing but one of them — Formalism (aka, roughly, Science).
> >
> > Yes, I believe that Formalism has attained such a privileged status
> > that it tolerates no criticism and critics are "excommunicated"
> with
> > prejudice.
> >
> > I would like to think of myself as someone interested in growing
> > heritage tomatoes in my garden and marveling at the differences in
> > taste and texture and finding very deep value from the use of
> them in
> > culinary creations.
> >
> > davew
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 18, 2020, at 8:58 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com
>  wrote:
> > > Dave,
> > >
> > > No, wait a minute!  Thou slenderest me!   For you, Science is
> a bunch
> > > of nasty people with vested interests. Science, on that
> understanding,
> > > has the power to exclude.  For me, Science is a set of
> practices that
> > > lead to understandings of experience that endure the test of
> time.  It
> > > is not the sort of thing that can exclude.   If pot smoking in
> bubble
> > > baths leads to understandings that endure the test of time,
> then it is
> > > a scientific method.  Something like that seemed to have
> worked for
> > > Archimedes. 
> > >
> > > Nick   
> > >
> > > Nicholas Thompson
> > > Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
> > > Clark University
> > > thompnicks...@gmail.com 
> > > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> > > 
> > >
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Friam  > On Behalf Of Prof David West
> > > Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2020 6:31 PM
> > > To: friam@redfish.com 
> > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] basis for prediction — forked from the
> tail end of
> > > anthropological observtions
> > >
> > > Nick,
> > >
> > > 

[FRIAM] Tripping on the Rye: She's a Witch! How do you know? . (Re: basis for prediction — forked from the tail end of anthropological observtions)

[Stephen Guerin]

I was completely ignorant of the history/impacts of ergot
 before this thread. Fascinating!

In this context, we can think about Dave's different ways of knowing when
we show cause and evidence that someone is a witch.

   1. Science: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g
   2.  LSD: Ergo the Ergot: LSD, Causation and Evidence
   https://www.vox.com/2015/10/29/9620542/salem-witch-trials-ergotism





On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 7:47 AM Prof David West 
wrote:

> addendum:  I was interrupted mid-post
>
> Just as a new strain of ergot might pose a severe challenge to hybridized
> wheat, a new "strain" of problem might pose a severe challenge to a
> hybridized mode of thinking.
>
> I would posit that challenges like Covid-19, global warming, and even The
> Donald are akin to a new strain of ergot vis-a-vis wheat. Our ability to
> address or solve those challenges might be, I am certain it would be,
> enhanced if we could bring to bear some "heritage modes of thought."
>
> My expressed antipathy for Science derives from the tendency of scientists
> to simply dismiss any alternative ideas or arguments as anti-scientific and
> therefore invalid.
>
> The reason I said that you and I are in fundamental agreement, is that, I
> think, both of us would accept into our garden of thought" any sufficiently
> viable, and tasty, mode of thinking.
>
> davew
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 19, 2020, at 6:24 AM, Prof David West wrote:
> > Nick,
> >
> > There is truth in what you say, but only a bit.
> >
> > I have certainly spoken as if "Science was a bunch of nasty people with
> > vested interests acting in an exclusionary manner."
> >
> > Hyperbole.
> >
> > A better metaphor / analogy would be the way we have hybridized our
> > food supply; e.g. 90 percent of all dairy cows have one of two bulls in
> > their ancestry, there are one or two tomato hybrids, one or two strains
> > of rice, wheat, corn, etc.
> >
> > This creates a huge vulnerability — a novel pest or disease and presto,
> > no food supply.
> >
> > Now imagine that there are multiple species of investigation, thinking,
> > knowledge.
> >
> > Since the Age of Enlightenment, the western world has been hell bent on
> > hybridizing but one of them — Formalism (aka, roughly, Science).
> >
> > Yes, I believe that Formalism has attained such a privileged status
> > that it tolerates no criticism and critics are "excommunicated" with
> > prejudice.
> >
> > I would like to think of myself as someone interested in growing
> > heritage tomatoes in my garden and marveling at the differences in
> > taste and texture and finding very deep value from the use of them in
> > culinary creations.
> >
> > davew
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 18, 2020, at 8:58 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Dave,
> > >
> > > No, wait a minute!  Thou slenderest me!   For you, Science is a bunch
> > > of nasty people with vested interests. Science, on that understanding,
> > > has the power to exclude.  For me, Science is a set of practices that
> > > lead to understandings of experience that endure the test of time.  It
> > > is not the sort of thing that can exclude.   If pot smoking in bubble
> > > baths leads to understandings that endure the test of time, then it is
> > > a scientific method.  Something like that seemed to have worked for
> > > Archimedes.
> > >
> > > Nick
> > >
> > > Nicholas Thompson
> > > Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
> > > Clark University
> > > thompnicks...@gmail.com
> > > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Friam  On Behalf Of Prof David West
> > > Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2020 6:31 PM
> > > To: friam@redfish.com
> > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] basis for prediction — forked from the tail end
> of
> > > anthropological observtions
> > >
> > > Nick,
> > >
> > > I won't lose the argument, because I pre-believe that, IF alternative
> > > means with some kind of criteria for falsifiability and repeatability
> > > THEN they should be incorporated into that which is deemed "Science" —
> > > ergo there is no argument to lose.
> > >
> > > If there is an argument — and there is clearly a difference of opinion
> > > — it centers on the the issue of why Hermetic Alchemy, Acid
> > > Epistemology, Anthropological Thick Description, Ayurvedic Medicine,
> > > Adams' "rhetorical analysis" et. al. are, at the moment and for the
> > > most part, excluded from Science.
> > >
> > > davew
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Apr 18, 2020, at 5:28 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > Dave,
> > > >
> > > > You're going to lose this argument with me eventually, because any
> > > > investigatory practice that works in the long run I am going to
> > > > declare to be part of "the scientific method."  So if you declare
> that
> > > > discovery is enhanced by lying in a warm suds bath smoking pot, and
> > > > you can describe a repeatable practice  which includes that as a
> > > > method,