Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

[Steve Smith]

On 10/30/21 9:59 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
You observed correctly, Steve.  When I drove bumper cars my goal was 
to "win the race".  Others' goals were to crash into as many people as 
possible.


Which is why you own fast cars and I only own beaters... not because I 
like to drive demolition derby style, but because I believe everyone 
else does.


Probably explains something about our disparate posting styles too?

Metaphor stretched thin I suppose



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Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

[Marcus Daniels]

I must have missed the memo!  There is a race to win in bumper cars?!   In F1 
there is a lot of skill that goes into blocking, and I think the F1 racers 
learn it as kids in organized go-cart racing.  Conversely there is some 
strategy that goes into drafting in bicycle racing.  Aerobic fitness plays a 
role in boxing — remember all that running around that Rocky did?  Wear the 
opponent out and wait for an opportunity..

On Oct 30, 2021, at 9:00 AM, Frank Wimberly  wrote:


You observed correctly, Steve.  When I drove bumper cars my goal was to "win 
the race".  Others' goals were to crash into as many people as possible.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 9:34 AM Steve Smith 
mailto:sasm...@swcp.com>> wrote:

The "bumper car" image does sound apropos in many ways.

I never actually climbed into one of those but was fascinated the couple of 
times I saw them at the State Fair...  as I remember it, there was a grid on 
the floor and one on the ceiling providing the two "rails" for power and there 
were copious sparks where the "brushes" on the end of the flexible wand 
contacted the ceiling grid.   As a country hick, the whole arrangement looked 
really sketchy to me.   But as a (somewhat) rational observer, I was pretty 
sure nobody died in those rides, or at least not from flying sparks.   I 
suppose, in the spirit of play-as-practice or play-as-learning there is a 
significant element of "just jumping in and smashing into one another".  Being 
the hick that I am I sometimes have a hard time ignoring the sparks that fly 
off of the floor and ceiling.

I've also watched groups of guys (brothers, friends, frats) racing around mini 
courses in go-carts and noticed that many of them seem happier bumping into one 
another and impeding *others'* progress than actually making their own 
progress.  Occasionally women/girls join in, but not so much usually.  Maybe 
the calculated obstructionism in a game of Hearts or Spades is more 
gender-inclusive?  Some are better at "shooting the moon" than others...

I munno, as usual I am probably stretching this too far.

Carry On,

 - Steve

Steve writes:

< I think some of what Nick and Jon might have identified here as "bullying" 
might actually be more in the spirit of "Counting Coup", but I'm not really 
clear on where the two fit together in the GrandUnifiedOntologyDuFriAM >

In think it is more in the spirit of bumper cars.   Here, gentle reader, we 
have a car, and we can study its wheels and the electricity delivery mechanism, 
its motor, and controls.   We can take copious notes and make predictive models 
of the maximum displacement it could impart to another bumper car.  Or we can 
just jump in and smash into each other.

Marcus



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Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

[Frank Wimberly]

You observed correctly, Steve.  When I drove bumper cars my goal was to
"win the race".  Others' goals were to crash into as many people as
possible.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 9:34 AM Steve Smith  wrote:

> The "bumper car" image does sound apropos in many ways.
>
> I never actually climbed into one of those but was fascinated the couple
> of times I saw them at the State Fair...  as I remember it, there was a
> grid on the floor and one on the ceiling providing the two "rails" for
> power and there were copious sparks where the "brushes" on the end of the
> flexible wand contacted the ceiling grid.   As a country hick, the whole
> arrangement looked really sketchy to me.   But as a (somewhat) rational
> observer, I was pretty sure nobody died in those rides, or at least not
> from flying sparks.   I suppose, in the spirit of play-as-practice or
> play-as-learning there is a significant element of "just jumping in and
> smashing into one another".  Being the hick that I am I sometimes have a
> hard time ignoring the sparks that fly off of the floor and ceiling.
>
> I've also watched groups of guys (brothers, friends, frats) racing around
> mini courses in go-carts and noticed that many of them seem happier bumping
> into one another and impeding *others'* progress than actually making their
> own progress.  Occasionally women/girls join in, but not so much usually.
> Maybe the calculated obstructionism in a game of Hearts or Spades is more
> gender-inclusive?  Some are better at "shooting the moon" than others...
>
> I munno, as usual I am probably stretching this too far.
>
> Carry On,
>
>  - Steve
>
> Steve writes:
>
> < I think some of what Nick and Jon might have identified here as
> "bullying" might actually be more in the spirit of "Counting Coup", but I'm
> not really clear on where the two fit together in the
> GrandUnifiedOntologyDuFriAM >
>
> In think it is more in the spirit of bumper cars.   Here, gentle reader,
> we have a car, and we can study its wheels and the electricity delivery
> mechanism, its motor, and controls.   We can take copious notes and make
> predictive models of the maximum displacement it could impart to another
> bumper car.  Or we can just jump in and smash into each other.
>
> Marcus
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

[Steve Smith]

The "bumper car" image does sound apropos in many ways.

I never actually climbed into one of those but was fascinated the couple 
of times I saw them at the State Fair...  as I remember it, there was a 
grid on the floor and one on the ceiling providing the two "rails" for 
power and there were copious sparks where the "brushes" on the end of 
the flexible wand contacted the ceiling grid.   As a country hick, the 
whole arrangement looked really sketchy to me.   But as a (somewhat) 
rational observer, I was pretty sure nobody died in those rides, or at 
least not from flying sparks.   I suppose, in the spirit of 
play-as-practice or play-as-learning there is a significant element of 
"just jumping in and smashing into one another".  Being the hick that I 
am I sometimes have a hard time ignoring the sparks that fly off of the 
floor and ceiling.


I've also watched groups of guys (brothers, friends, frats) racing 
around mini courses in go-carts and noticed that many of them seem 
happier bumping into one another and impeding *others'* progress than 
actually making their own progress.  Occasionally women/girls join in, 
but not so much usually.  Maybe the calculated obstructionism in a game 
of Hearts or Spades is more gender-inclusive?  Some are better at 
"shooting the moon" than others...


I munno, as usual I am probably stretching this too far.

Carry On,

 - Steve


Steve writes:

< I think some of what Nick and Jon might have identified here as 
"bullying" might actually be more in the spirit of "Counting Coup", 
but I'm not really clear on where the two fit together in the 
GrandUnifiedOntologyDuFriAM >


In think it is more in the spirit of bumper cars.   Here, gentle 
reader, we have a car, and we can study its wheels and the electricity 
delivery mechanism, its motor, and controls.  We can take copious 
notes and make predictive models of the maximum displacement it could 
impart to another bumper car.  Or we can just jump in and smash into 
each other.


Marcus


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Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

[Marcus Daniels]

Steve writes:

< I think some of what Nick and Jon might have identified here as "bullying" 
might actually be more in the spirit of "Counting Coup", but I'm not really 
clear on where the two fit together in the GrandUnifiedOntologyDuFriAM >

In think it is more in the spirit of bumper cars.   Here, gentle reader, we 
have a car, and we can study its wheels and the electricity delivery mechanism, 
its motor, and controls.   We can take copious notes and make predictive models 
of the maximum displacement it could impart to another bumper car.  Or we can 
just jump in and smash into each other.

Marcus

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Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

[Steve Smith]

I believe this book/author has been referenced more than once on this forum:


 Finite and Infinite Games: A Vision of Life as Play and Possibility
 <https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/54828.James_P_Carse>

by
James P. Carse
<https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/54828.James_P_Carse>

https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/189989

I agree that "play" is generally some form of "practice" (work, hunting, 
fighting) especially in the young or otherwise formative.   On the other 
hand I think it can also be sublimation as with chess or rugby as "mock 
battle".  My favorite anecdotal form would be young warriors of the 
horse cultures of the American Plains "counting coup" against European 
Soldiers, leaving them frustrated and flabbergasted at having been 
"tagged" in what they thought was a real battle.   The ultimate mock?


I think some of what Nick and Jon might have identified here as 
"bullying" might actually be more in the spirit of "Counting Coup", but 
I'm not really clear on where the two fit together in the 
GrandUnifiedOntologyDuFriAM


On 10/29/21 2:58 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

When self-driving systems are trained in high-fidelity simulations, that seems 
pretty similar to mammals playing.   Another word for it is practice.To me 
a `game' and `play' don't have an obvious connection.   A game is a structured 
event that follows artificial rules.   The tiger cubs wrestling are learning 
about their bodies in relation to each other and gravity.  Those rules can't be 
avoided, at least on this planet, but in many real-world situations rules can 
be changed or ignored.   In my mind people that like games like the process of 
navigating strategies relative to a much reduced space of possibility provided 
by rules.   Why that is, I'm not sure.  Maybe it is a social activity (ranking 
each other)?  Or maybe there is the possibility of mastery?

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 1:13 PM
To:friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

I've been watching warm blooded creatures a lot and noticing that in some sense, it is "all 
play all the time", though the youth are more acutely recognized doing such.   Mammals and 
birds seem much more "playful" than insects and reptiles, though this may well be 
antropocentrism at work, it is just easier for me as a warm-blooded mammal to *recognize* the kind 
of play that a creature evolved to nurture and teach their young is likely to engage in.

I'm a big proponent of "play" of all kinds even though (because?) I'm not very 
practiced nor good at it.

On 10/29/21 11:31 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:

OK. Well, whatever, I guess. I'm not talking about it *separately*, though. 
It's the embeddedness that makes it fun. You'd be right that it's boring if 
it's isolated out as an intellectual exercise. I'm definitely not doing that, 
despite your allegation that I am.

I think maybe you don't play games much. Maybe you think gamers separate the 
game from their lives. They don't. Poker is intertwined deeply into a poker 
palyer's life, for example. They can't help drawing rampant (false) analogies 
to everything under the sun. The same is true of Minecraft or Fortnite fans.

Those who might think that there are *gratuitous* games are probably trapped in 
some particular other game they mistakenly identify with the world, that they 
think completely covers the world. They're worse than the World of Warcraft 
master who analogizes everything to that game because, deep down, they *know* 
WoW doesn't map very well to the whole world, just like Harry Potter fans 
reluctantly admit their classification of people into the houses isn't real. 
There are no gratuitous games. Some may not interest others. But c'est la vie. 
That's the beauty of the world that is, as opposed to the world we think is. 
The true boor is the one who thinks their idiosyncratic game is complete.


On 10/29/21 10:11 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

Well, it occurs to me I shouldn't have used the word eco-terrorist.  Terror 
implies a desire for political change -- changes to the behavior of cultures.

You are separately talking about individuals who are not invested in some deep 
parsing of some esoteric text versus those that are, and maybe making some 
judgement about the value of individuals who don't invest in that parsing.   
Snore.  That's the gratuitous game that I am referring to, and I can completely 
understand why some individuals who you call ganks might just ignore or hold in 
contempt the activity.   Someone like Greta might be thinking more along the 
lines of how to get on with depopulation so the species can survive in the 
longer term, a

Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

[Marcus Daniels]

When self-driving systems are trained in high-fidelity simulations, that seems 
pretty similar to mammals playing.   Another word for it is practice.To me 
a `game' and `play' don't have an obvious connection.   A game is a structured 
event that follows artificial rules.   The tiger cubs wrestling are learning 
about their bodies in relation to each other and gravity.  Those rules can't be 
avoided, at least on this planet, but in many real-world situations rules can 
be changed or ignored.   In my mind people that like games like the process of 
navigating strategies relative to a much reduced space of possibility provided 
by rules.   Why that is, I'm not sure.  Maybe it is a social activity (ranking 
each other)?  Or maybe there is the possibility of mastery?

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 1:13 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

I've been watching warm blooded creatures a lot and noticing that in some 
sense, it is "all play all the time", though the youth are more acutely 
recognized doing such.   Mammals and birds seem much more "playful" than 
insects and reptiles, though this may well be antropocentrism at work, it is 
just easier for me as a warm-blooded mammal to *recognize* the kind of play 
that a creature evolved to nurture and teach their young is likely to engage in.

I'm a big proponent of "play" of all kinds even though (because?) I'm not very 
practiced nor good at it.

On 10/29/21 11:31 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:
> OK. Well, whatever, I guess. I'm not talking about it *separately*, though. 
> It's the embeddedness that makes it fun. You'd be right that it's boring if 
> it's isolated out as an intellectual exercise. I'm definitely not doing that, 
> despite your allegation that I am.
>
> I think maybe you don't play games much. Maybe you think gamers separate the 
> game from their lives. They don't. Poker is intertwined deeply into a poker 
> palyer's life, for example. They can't help drawing rampant (false) analogies 
> to everything under the sun. The same is true of Minecraft or Fortnite fans.
>
> Those who might think that there are *gratuitous* games are probably trapped 
> in some particular other game they mistakenly identify with the world, that 
> they think completely covers the world. They're worse than the World of 
> Warcraft master who analogizes everything to that game because, deep down, 
> they *know* WoW doesn't map very well to the whole world, just like Harry 
> Potter fans reluctantly admit their classification of people into the houses 
> isn't real. There are no gratuitous games. Some may not interest others. But 
> c'est la vie. That's the beauty of the world that is, as opposed to the world 
> we think is. The true boor is the one who thinks their idiosyncratic game is 
> complete.
>
>
> On 10/29/21 10:11 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> Well, it occurs to me I shouldn't have used the word eco-terrorist.  Terror 
>> implies a desire for political change -- changes to the behavior of cultures.
>>
>> You are separately talking about individuals who are not invested in some 
>> deep parsing of some esoteric text versus those that are, and maybe making 
>> some judgement about the value of individuals who don't invest in that 
>> parsing.   Snore.  That's the gratuitous game that I am referring to, and I 
>> can completely understand why some individuals who you call ganks might just 
>> ignore or hold in contempt the activity.   Someone like Greta might be 
>> thinking more along the lines of how to get on with depopulation so the 
>> species can survive in the longer term, and less about how to persuade 
>> people to volunteer to help make it happen.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 10:01 AM
>> To: friam@redfish.com
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American 
>> Revolution)
>>
>> Yes, it *is* in the spirit of gaming. That's the point. If she manages to 
>> pull that lever, she wins that round. Of course, you could argue that if she 
>> doesn't pull the lever, we'll all die and there'll be no more game. But 
>> that's not the way the world works. Even if we all *eventually* die, or we 
>> suffer untold pain and suffering along the way only to eek by in the end, 
>> it's still in the spirit of gaming.
>>
>> You can't really win. You can't really even quit the game. This is the 
>> world. Life sucks. Then you 

Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

[Steve Smith]

I've been watching warm blooded creatures a lot and noticing that in 
some sense, it is "all play all the time", though the youth are more 
acutely recognized doing such.   Mammals and birds seem much more 
"playful" than insects and reptiles, though this may well be 
antropocentrism at work, it is just easier for me as a warm-blooded 
mammal to *recognize* the kind of play that a creature evolved to 
nurture and teach their young is likely to engage in.


I'm a big proponent of "play" of all kinds even though (because?) I'm 
not very practiced nor good at it.


On 10/29/21 11:31 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:

OK. Well, whatever, I guess. I'm not talking about it *separately*, though. 
It's the embeddedness that makes it fun. You'd be right that it's boring if 
it's isolated out as an intellectual exercise. I'm definitely not doing that, 
despite your allegation that I am.

I think maybe you don't play games much. Maybe you think gamers separate the 
game from their lives. They don't. Poker is intertwined deeply into a poker 
palyer's life, for example. They can't help drawing rampant (false) analogies 
to everything under the sun. The same is true of Minecraft or Fortnite fans.

Those who might think that there are *gratuitous* games are probably trapped in 
some particular other game they mistakenly identify with the world, that they 
think completely covers the world. They're worse than the World of Warcraft 
master who analogizes everything to that game because, deep down, they *know* 
WoW doesn't map very well to the whole world, just like Harry Potter fans 
reluctantly admit their classification of people into the houses isn't real. 
There are no gratuitous games. Some may not interest others. But c'est la vie. 
That's the beauty of the world that is, as opposed to the world we think is. 
The true boor is the one who thinks their idiosyncratic game is complete.


On 10/29/21 10:11 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

Well, it occurs to me I shouldn't have used the word eco-terrorist.  Terror 
implies a desire for political change -- changes to the behavior of cultures.

You are separately talking about individuals who are not invested in some deep 
parsing of some esoteric text versus those that are, and maybe making some 
judgement about the value of individuals who don't invest in that parsing.   
Snore.  That's the gratuitous game that I am referring to, and I can completely 
understand why some individuals who you call ganks might just ignore or hold in 
contempt the activity.   Someone like Greta might be thinking more along the 
lines of how to get on with depopulation so the species can survive in the 
longer term, and less about how to persuade people to volunteer to help make it 
happen.

-Original Message-----
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 10:01 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

Yes, it *is* in the spirit of gaming. That's the point. If she manages to pull 
that lever, she wins that round. Of course, you could argue that if she doesn't 
pull the lever, we'll all die and there'll be no more game. But that's not the 
way the world works. Even if we all *eventually* die, or we suffer untold pain 
and suffering along the way only to eek by in the end, it's still in the spirit 
of gaming.

You can't really win. You can't really even quit the game. This is the world. 
Life sucks. Then you die. The trick is learning to enjoy it. If the Chicken 
Littles of the world are not enjoying this world, then it's largely their fault.

To be clear, I'm on Greta's side, here, considering various different speedrun 
strats to get to the lever before the dying and suffering swamps us. But the 
objective isn't really the destination. The Journey is the destination. I pity 
those who don't grok that.

On 10/29/21 9:50 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

What I was suggesting was that if Greta became an eco-terrorist, it would not 
be in the spirit of gaming.   Just as the cats killing everything they can 
isn't in the spirit of gaming.   If there is a lever (or trigger) should could 
pull to solve the climate problem, she might want to pull it.  Such gankers 
could make the world a better place precisely by refusing to participate in 
these games.

Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 9:40 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

Hm. You apparently *do* get it. There should be ganker ecologists. My whole 
essay was a defense of just such a thing, as well as more solitary games like 
cat's play. I suppose my attempt to layer the semantics failed. Oh well.

To ruin the joke, I thrive on being ganked ... especial

Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

[Steve Smith]

Marcus Daniels wrote:

Well, it occurs to me I shouldn't have used the word eco-terrorist.  Terror 
implies a desire for political change -- changes to the behavior of cultures.

You are separately talking about individuals who are not invested in some deep 
parsing of some esoteric text versus those that are, and maybe making some 
judgement about the value of individuals who don't invest in that parsing.   
Snore.  That's the gratuitous game that I am referring to, and I can completely 
understand why some individuals who you call ganks might just ignore or hold in 
contempt the activity.   Someone like Greta might be thinking more along the 
lines of how to get on with depopulation so the species can survive in the 
longer term, and less about how to persuade people to volunteer to help make it 
happen.


I'm likely wrong, but my read on Greta is that the core of her 
criticism/angst is our collective hypocrisy, telling her (and her 
generation) that "the sky is falling" whilst acting out "pedal to the 
metal" and "burn baby burn".   She likely doesl not want to suffer 
mightily from a crashed biosphere, either personally or by watching 
others suffer throwing themselves at the gates/shores of our first-world 
communities, but I sense it is the blunt hypocrisy that offends her most.


To your point/judgement, In the ensemble of simulations we did using the 
World3 Model, one of the strongest positive correlations was between an 
early human population crash and a high standard of living in 2100.  If 
one's only goal is to give their (grand)children (or their own 
transhumanist selves) a high standard of living (based on outdated 
measures like GDP/population) then (m)any one of the strategies 
(encourage rather than suppress a global pandemic) that leads to 
near-term population crash is a good one.


  


-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 10:01 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

Yes, it *is* in the spirit of gaming. That's the point. If she manages to pull 
that lever, she wins that round. Of course, you could argue that if she doesn't 
pull the lever, we'll all die and there'll be no more game. But that's not the 
way the world works. Even if we all *eventually* die, or we suffer untold pain 
and suffering along the way only to eek by in the end, it's still in the spirit 
of gaming.

You can't really win. You can't really even quit the game. This is the world. 
Life sucks. Then you die. The trick is learning to enjoy it. If the Chicken 
Littles of the world are not enjoying this world, then it's largely their fault.

To be clear, I'm on Greta's side, here, considering various different speedrun 
strats to get to the lever before the dying and suffering swamps us. But the 
objective isn't really the destination. The Journey is the destination. I pity 
those who don't grok that.

On 10/29/21 9:50 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

What I was suggesting was that if Greta became an eco-terrorist, it would not 
be in the spirit of gaming.   Just as the cats killing everything they can 
isn't in the spirit of gaming.   If there is a lever (or trigger) should could 
pull to solve the climate problem, she might want to pull it.  Such gankers 
could make the world a better place precisely by refusing to participate in 
these games.

Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 9:40 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

Hm. You apparently *do* get it. There should be ganker ecologists. My whole 
essay was a defense of just such a thing, as well as more solitary games like 
cat's play. I suppose my attempt to layer the semantics failed. Oh well.

To ruin the joke, I thrive on being ganked ... especially if I survive. My ecologist 
gankers actually thought I was defending Utilitarianism, especially when trying to 
explain how vNM rationality flattens the ontology into a calculus. (For context, I'd 
loaned one of them my copy of ToG&EB 
<https://bookshop.org/books/theory-of-games-and-economic-behavior-60th-anniversary-commemorative-edition/9780691130613>
 to one of them about a month ago. So if he'd only read all bazillion pages of that door 
stop, he'd have known my argument.) Were we not embedded in the context of the salon, my 
argument for letting cats outdoors would have taken a more banal turn toward measures for 
determining when a species is no longer invasive and becomes endemic. That tack plays 
well because one of them studies [and works to defend capitalist big Ag through the 
eradication of] murder hornets[' nests].

But we weren't chatting. So I opted for the more thrilling attempt to first 
defend, then refute

Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

OK. Well, whatever, I guess. I'm not talking about it *separately*, though. 
It's the embeddedness that makes it fun. You'd be right that it's boring if 
it's isolated out as an intellectual exercise. I'm definitely not doing that, 
despite your allegation that I am.

I think maybe you don't play games much. Maybe you think gamers separate the 
game from their lives. They don't. Poker is intertwined deeply into a poker 
palyer's life, for example. They can't help drawing rampant (false) analogies 
to everything under the sun. The same is true of Minecraft or Fortnite fans.

Those who might think that there are *gratuitous* games are probably trapped in 
some particular other game they mistakenly identify with the world, that they 
think completely covers the world. They're worse than the World of Warcraft 
master who analogizes everything to that game because, deep down, they *know* 
WoW doesn't map very well to the whole world, just like Harry Potter fans 
reluctantly admit their classification of people into the houses isn't real. 
There are no gratuitous games. Some may not interest others. But c'est la vie. 
That's the beauty of the world that is, as opposed to the world we think is. 
The true boor is the one who thinks their idiosyncratic game is complete.


On 10/29/21 10:11 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Well, it occurs to me I shouldn't have used the word eco-terrorist.  Terror 
> implies a desire for political change -- changes to the behavior of cultures. 
>  
> 
> You are separately talking about individuals who are not invested in some 
> deep parsing of some esoteric text versus those that are, and maybe making 
> some judgement about the value of individuals who don't invest in that 
> parsing.   Snore.  That's the gratuitous game that I am referring to, and I 
> can completely understand why some individuals who you call ganks might just 
> ignore or hold in contempt the activity.   Someone like Greta might be 
> thinking more along the lines of how to get on with depopulation so the 
> species can survive in the longer term, and less about how to persuade people 
> to volunteer to help make it happen. 
> 
> -Original Message-----
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 10:01 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)
> 
> Yes, it *is* in the spirit of gaming. That's the point. If she manages to 
> pull that lever, she wins that round. Of course, you could argue that if she 
> doesn't pull the lever, we'll all die and there'll be no more game. But 
> that's not the way the world works. Even if we all *eventually* die, or we 
> suffer untold pain and suffering along the way only to eek by in the end, 
> it's still in the spirit of gaming.
> 
> You can't really win. You can't really even quit the game. This is the world. 
> Life sucks. Then you die. The trick is learning to enjoy it. If the Chicken 
> Littles of the world are not enjoying this world, then it's largely their 
> fault.
> 
> To be clear, I'm on Greta's side, here, considering various different 
> speedrun strats to get to the lever before the dying and suffering swamps us. 
> But the objective isn't really the destination. The Journey is the 
> destination. I pity those who don't grok that.
> 
> On 10/29/21 9:50 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> What I was suggesting was that if Greta became an eco-terrorist, it would 
>> not be in the spirit of gaming.   Just as the cats killing everything they 
>> can isn't in the spirit of gaming.   If there is a lever (or trigger) should 
>> could pull to solve the climate problem, she might want to pull it.  Such 
>> gankers could make the world a better place precisely by refusing to 
>> participate in these games.
>>
>> Original Message-
>> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 9:40 AM
>> To: friam@redfish.com
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)
>>
>> Hm. You apparently *do* get it. There should be ganker ecologists. My whole 
>> essay was a defense of just such a thing, as well as more solitary games 
>> like cat's play. I suppose my attempt to layer the semantics failed. Oh well.
>>
>> To ruin the joke, I thrive on being ganked ... especially if I survive. My 
>> ecologist gankers actually thought I was defending Utilitarianism, 
>> especially when trying to explain how vNM rationality flattens the ontology 
>> into a calculus. (For context, I'd loaned one of them my copy of ToG&EB 
>> <https://bookshop

Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

[Marcus Daniels]

Well, it occurs to me I shouldn't have used the word eco-terrorist.  Terror 
implies a desire for political change -- changes to the behavior of cultures.  

You are separately talking about individuals who are not invested in some deep 
parsing of some esoteric text versus those that are, and maybe making some 
judgement about the value of individuals who don't invest in that parsing.   
Snore.  That's the gratuitous game that I am referring to, and I can completely 
understand why some individuals who you call ganks might just ignore or hold in 
contempt the activity.   Someone like Greta might be thinking more along the 
lines of how to get on with depopulation so the species can survive in the 
longer term, and less about how to persuade people to volunteer to help make it 
happen. 

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 10:01 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

Yes, it *is* in the spirit of gaming. That's the point. If she manages to pull 
that lever, she wins that round. Of course, you could argue that if she doesn't 
pull the lever, we'll all die and there'll be no more game. But that's not the 
way the world works. Even if we all *eventually* die, or we suffer untold pain 
and suffering along the way only to eek by in the end, it's still in the spirit 
of gaming.

You can't really win. You can't really even quit the game. This is the world. 
Life sucks. Then you die. The trick is learning to enjoy it. If the Chicken 
Littles of the world are not enjoying this world, then it's largely their fault.

To be clear, I'm on Greta's side, here, considering various different speedrun 
strats to get to the lever before the dying and suffering swamps us. But the 
objective isn't really the destination. The Journey is the destination. I pity 
those who don't grok that.

On 10/29/21 9:50 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> What I was suggesting was that if Greta became an eco-terrorist, it would not 
> be in the spirit of gaming.   Just as the cats killing everything they can 
> isn't in the spirit of gaming.   If there is a lever (or trigger) should 
> could pull to solve the climate problem, she might want to pull it.  Such 
> gankers could make the world a better place precisely by refusing to 
> participate in these games.
> 
> Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 9:40 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)
> 
> Hm. You apparently *do* get it. There should be ganker ecologists. My whole 
> essay was a defense of just such a thing, as well as more solitary games like 
> cat's play. I suppose my attempt to layer the semantics failed. Oh well.
> 
> To ruin the joke, I thrive on being ganked ... especially if I survive. My 
> ecologist gankers actually thought I was defending Utilitarianism, especially 
> when trying to explain how vNM rationality flattens the ontology into a 
> calculus. (For context, I'd loaned one of them my copy of ToG&EB 
> <https://bookshop.org/books/theory-of-games-and-economic-behavior-60th-anniversary-commemorative-edition/9780691130613>
>  to one of them about a month ago. So if he'd only read all bazillion pages 
> of that door stop, he'd have known my argument.) Were we not embedded in the 
> context of the salon, my argument for letting cats outdoors would have taken 
> a more banal turn toward measures for determining when a species is no longer 
> invasive and becomes endemic. That tack plays well because one of them 
> studies [and works to defend capitalist big Ag through the eradication of] 
> murder hornets[' nests].
> 
> But we weren't chatting. So I opted for the more thrilling attempt to first 
> defend, then refute, philosophical utilitarianism and, perhaps by 
> association, economic utilitarianism ... all to a gank that has yet to 
> seriously parse either. It is thrilling to try, and fail, at such things. I'm 
> profoundly grateful another guy was not there for that because he fancies 
> himself a philosopher and gets a bit pedantic when/if any one of us gets into 
> the weeds of our own expertise. He would have shut down the whole game early 
> on ... or got all offended and *canceled* us for our sloppy talk.
> 
> 
> On 10/29/21 9:22 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> Still don't get it.  Why shouldn't there be thrill seeking ganker 
>> ecologists, or environmentalists, or people that an adrenaline rush sneaking 
>> up to Trumpers to inject COVID-19 vaccines (or to cough on them, etc.)   
>> What difference does it matter whether the behavior is de

Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

Yes, it *is* in the spirit of gaming. That's the point. If she manages to pull 
that lever, she wins that round. Of course, you could argue that if she doesn't 
pull the lever, we'll all die and there'll be no more game. But that's not the 
way the world works. Even if we all *eventually* die, or we suffer untold pain 
and suffering along the way only to eek by in the end, it's still in the spirit 
of gaming.

You can't really win. You can't really even quit the game. This is the world. 
Life sucks. Then you die. The trick is learning to enjoy it. If the Chicken 
Littles of the world are not enjoying this world, then it's largely their fault.

To be clear, I'm on Greta's side, here, considering various different speedrun 
strats to get to the lever before the dying and suffering swamps us. But the 
objective isn't really the destination. The Journey is the destination. I pity 
those who don't grok that.

On 10/29/21 9:50 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> What I was suggesting was that if Greta became an eco-terrorist, it would not 
> be in the spirit of gaming.   Just as the cats killing everything they can 
> isn't in the spirit of gaming.   If there is a lever (or trigger) should 
> could pull to solve the climate problem, she might want to pull it.  Such 
> gankers could make the world a better place precisely by refusing to 
> participate in these games.
> 
> Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 9:40 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)
> 
> Hm. You apparently *do* get it. There should be ganker ecologists. My whole 
> essay was a defense of just such a thing, as well as more solitary games like 
> cat's play. I suppose my attempt to layer the semantics failed. Oh well.
> 
> To ruin the joke, I thrive on being ganked ... especially if I survive. My 
> ecologist gankers actually thought I was defending Utilitarianism, especially 
> when trying to explain how vNM rationality flattens the ontology into a 
> calculus. (For context, I'd loaned one of them my copy of ToG&EB 
> <https://bookshop.org/books/theory-of-games-and-economic-behavior-60th-anniversary-commemorative-edition/9780691130613>
>  to one of them about a month ago. So if he'd only read all bazillion pages 
> of that door stop, he'd have known my argument.) Were we not embedded in the 
> context of the salon, my argument for letting cats outdoors would have taken 
> a more banal turn toward measures for determining when a species is no longer 
> invasive and becomes endemic. That tack plays well because one of them 
> studies [and works to defend capitalist big Ag through the eradication of] 
> murder hornets[' nests].
> 
> But we weren't chatting. So I opted for the more thrilling attempt to first 
> defend, then refute, philosophical utilitarianism and, perhaps by 
> association, economic utilitarianism ... all to a gank that has yet to 
> seriously parse either. It is thrilling to try, and fail, at such things. I'm 
> profoundly grateful another guy was not there for that because he fancies 
> himself a philosopher and gets a bit pedantic when/if any one of us gets into 
> the weeds of our own expertise. He would have shut down the whole game early 
> on ... or got all offended and *canceled* us for our sloppy talk.
> 
> 
> On 10/29/21 9:22 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> Still don't get it.  Why shouldn't there be thrill seeking ganker 
>> ecologists, or environmentalists, or people that an adrenaline rush sneaking 
>> up to Trumpers to inject COVID-19 vaccines (or to cough on them, etc.)   
>> What difference does it matter whether the behavior is demonstrated in a 
>> pack, or by individuals, in a deeply composition or not?  I mean, really, 
>> who gives a damn about your video game?
>>
>> My companion Australian Cattle Dog has her own thrill seeking behaviors.   
>> It is, of course, the chase.  She won't fetch a stupid ball or swim in 
>> circles.   No, her thing is the stealth sneak-up, followed by a sprint, 
>> followed by a last second tear off before collision.  It terrifies some 
>> humans and dogs, but if no one is watching I can't help laugh a little.   
>> (Like the Blue Angels doing low-altitude maneuvers over the bay a few weeks 
>> ago.   How do they get away with that?)  There is some danger because if the 
>> dog looks to be about the size of a calf, she will just go ahead collide 
>> with it.   So there is a sort of predatory behavior but it is also inhibited.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
&g

Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

[Marcus Daniels]

What I was suggesting was that if Greta became an eco-terrorist, it would not 
be in the spirit of gaming.   Just as the cats killing everything they can 
isn't in the spirit of gaming.   If there is a lever (or trigger) should could 
pull to solve the climate problem, she might want to pull it.  Such gankers 
could make the world a better place precisely by refusing to participate in 
these games.

Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 9:40 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

Hm. You apparently *do* get it. There should be ganker ecologists. My whole 
essay was a defense of just such a thing, as well as more solitary games like 
cat's play. I suppose my attempt to layer the semantics failed. Oh well.

To ruin the joke, I thrive on being ganked ... especially if I survive. My 
ecologist gankers actually thought I was defending Utilitarianism, especially 
when trying to explain how vNM rationality flattens the ontology into a 
calculus. (For context, I'd loaned one of them my copy of ToG&EB 
<https://bookshop.org/books/theory-of-games-and-economic-behavior-60th-anniversary-commemorative-edition/9780691130613>
 to one of them about a month ago. So if he'd only read all bazillion pages of 
that door stop, he'd have known my argument.) Were we not embedded in the 
context of the salon, my argument for letting cats outdoors would have taken a 
more banal turn toward measures for determining when a species is no longer 
invasive and becomes endemic. That tack plays well because one of them studies 
[and works to defend capitalist big Ag through the eradication of] murder 
hornets[' nests].

But we weren't chatting. So I opted for the more thrilling attempt to first 
defend, then refute, philosophical utilitarianism and, perhaps by association, 
economic utilitarianism ... all to a gank that has yet to seriously parse 
either. It is thrilling to try, and fail, at such things. I'm profoundly 
grateful another guy was not there for that because he fancies himself a 
philosopher and gets a bit pedantic when/if any one of us gets into the weeds 
of our own expertise. He would have shut down the whole game early on ... or 
got all offended and *canceled* us for our sloppy talk.


On 10/29/21 9:22 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Still don't get it.  Why shouldn't there be thrill seeking ganker ecologists, 
> or environmentalists, or people that an adrenaline rush sneaking up to 
> Trumpers to inject COVID-19 vaccines (or to cough on them, etc.)   What 
> difference does it matter whether the behavior is demonstrated in a pack, or 
> by individuals, in a deeply composition or not?  I mean, really, who gives a 
> damn about your video game?
> 
> My companion Australian Cattle Dog has her own thrill seeking behaviors.   It 
> is, of course, the chase.  She won't fetch a stupid ball or swim in circles.  
>  No, her thing is the stealth sneak-up, followed by a sprint, followed by a 
> last second tear off before collision.  It terrifies some humans and dogs, 
> but if no one is watching I can't help laugh a little.   (Like the Blue 
> Angels doing low-altitude maneuvers over the bay a few weeks ago.   How do 
> they get away with that?)  There is some danger because if the dog looks to 
> be about the size of a calf, she will just go ahead collide with it.   So 
> there is a sort of predatory behavior but it is also inhibited.
> 
> -Original Message-----
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 7:14 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)
> 
> Ha! Yeah. I think it's healthy for teenagers to think about killing people. 
> Hell, it's healthy for adults to think about killing people. There's a 
> problem for the monists, I guess. If it's healthy to think about killing. Is 
> it also healthy to actually kill? Or is it a hallmark of health for there to 
> maintain a methodological dualism, a (n admittedly fuzzy) line between 
> thought and action?
> 
> I've lost it, now. But my phone ringtone used to be the audio output of a 
> coupled oscillator model with 4 oscillators. I've lost the PureData model, 
> unfortunately. But they're trivial to write. We could imagine a fast cycle 
> entertaining the thrill kills of one's favorite target and a slow cycle for 
> the actual killing. But for a healthy person, there'd be many, many fast 
> cycles. How many meetings do I have today? Did I respond to Bob about that 
> quarterly report? Did I feed the cat? Shut off the coffee pot? Blah, blah, 
> blah internal dialogue. The cycle that's entertaining killing Joe doesn't 
> really have a cha

Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

Hm. You apparently *do* get it. There should be ganker ecologists. My whole 
essay was a defense of just such a thing, as well as more solitary games like 
cat's play. I suppose my attempt to layer the semantics failed. Oh well.

To ruin the joke, I thrive on being ganked ... especially if I survive. My 
ecologist gankers actually thought I was defending Utilitarianism, especially 
when trying to explain how vNM rationality flattens the ontology into a 
calculus. (For context, I'd loaned one of them my copy of ToG&EB 
<https://bookshop.org/books/theory-of-games-and-economic-behavior-60th-anniversary-commemorative-edition/9780691130613>
 to one of them about a month ago. So if he'd only read all bazillion pages of 
that door stop, he'd have known my argument.) Were we not embedded in the 
context of the salon, my argument for letting cats outdoors would have taken a 
more banal turn toward measures for determining when a species is no longer 
invasive and becomes endemic. That tack plays well because one of them studies 
[and works to defend capitalist big Ag through the eradication of] murder 
hornets[' nests].

But we weren't chatting. So I opted for the more thrilling attempt to first 
defend, then refute, philosophical utilitarianism and, perhaps by association, 
economic utilitarianism ... all to a gank that has yet to seriously parse 
either. It is thrilling to try, and fail, at such things. I'm profoundly 
grateful another guy was not there for that because he fancies himself a 
philosopher and gets a bit pedantic when/if any one of us gets into the weeds 
of our own expertise. He would have shut down the whole game early on ... or 
got all offended and *canceled* us for our sloppy talk.


On 10/29/21 9:22 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Still don't get it.  Why shouldn't there be thrill seeking ganker ecologists, 
> or environmentalists, or people that an adrenaline rush sneaking up to 
> Trumpers to inject COVID-19 vaccines (or to cough on them, etc.)   What 
> difference does it matter whether the behavior is demonstrated in a pack, or 
> by individuals, in a deeply composition or not?  I mean, really, who gives a 
> damn about your video game?
> 
> My companion Australian Cattle Dog has her own thrill seeking behaviors.   It 
> is, of course, the chase.  She won't fetch a stupid ball or swim in circles.  
>  No, her thing is the stealth sneak-up, followed by a sprint, followed by a 
> last second tear off before collision.  It terrifies some humans and dogs, 
> but if no one is watching I can't help laugh a little.   (Like the Blue 
> Angels doing low-altitude maneuvers over the bay a few weeks ago.   How do 
> they get away with that?)  There is some danger because if the dog looks to 
> be about the size of a calf, she will just go ahead collide with it.   So 
> there is a sort of predatory behavior but it is also inhibited.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 7:14 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)
> 
> Ha! Yeah. I think it's healthy for teenagers to think about killing people. 
> Hell, it's healthy for adults to think about killing people. There's a 
> problem for the monists, I guess. If it's healthy to think about killing. Is 
> it also healthy to actually kill? Or is it a hallmark of health for there to 
> maintain a methodological dualism, a (n admittedly fuzzy) line between 
> thought and action?
> 
> I've lost it, now. But my phone ringtone used to be the audio output of a 
> coupled oscillator model with 4 oscillators. I've lost the PureData model, 
> unfortunately. But they're trivial to write. We could imagine a fast cycle 
> entertaining the thrill kills of one's favorite target and a slow cycle for 
> the actual killing. But for a healthy person, there'd be many, many fast 
> cycles. How many meetings do I have today? Did I respond to Bob about that 
> quarterly report? Did I feed the cat? Shut off the coffee pot? Blah, blah, 
> blah internal dialogue. The cycle that's entertaining killing Joe doesn't 
> really have a chance of percolating up to the big cycles.
> 
> But the sick person, the incel in the basement ranting on Gab.com about 
> Jewish Space Lasers, doesn't have as many competing fast cycles. It's easy 
> for a single cycle to resonate and later dominate that slow cycle. I suppose 
> schizophrenia might be a counter example, or on the opposite end of the 
> spectrum, too many fast cycles to allow for coherence in the slow cycles.
> 
> Perhaps the only remaining challenge to the model is identifying the neural 
> correlates? Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Theta. This lump, that lump.

Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

[Marcus Daniels]

Still don't get it.  Why shouldn't there be thrill seeking ganker ecologists, 
or environmentalists, or people that an adrenaline rush sneaking up to Trumpers 
to inject COVID-19 vaccines (or to cough on them, etc.)   What difference does 
it matter whether the behavior is demonstrated in a pack, or by individuals, in 
a deeply composition or not?  I mean, really, who gives a damn about your video 
game?

My companion Australian Cattle Dog has her own thrill seeking behaviors.   It 
is, of course, the chase.  She won't fetch a stupid ball or swim in circles.   
No, her thing is the stealth sneak-up, followed by a sprint, followed by a last 
second tear off before collision.  It terrifies some humans and dogs, but if no 
one is watching I can't help laugh a little.   (Like the Blue Angels doing 
low-altitude maneuvers over the bay a few weeks ago.   How do they get away 
with that?)  There is some danger because if the dog looks to be about the size 
of a calf, she will just go ahead collide with it.   So there is a sort of 
predatory behavior but it is also inhibited.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 7:14 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

Ha! Yeah. I think it's healthy for teenagers to think about killing people. 
Hell, it's healthy for adults to think about killing people. There's a problem 
for the monists, I guess. If it's healthy to think about killing. Is it also 
healthy to actually kill? Or is it a hallmark of health for there to maintain a 
methodological dualism, a (n admittedly fuzzy) line between thought and action?

I've lost it, now. But my phone ringtone used to be the audio output of a 
coupled oscillator model with 4 oscillators. I've lost the PureData model, 
unfortunately. But they're trivial to write. We could imagine a fast cycle 
entertaining the thrill kills of one's favorite target and a slow cycle for the 
actual killing. But for a healthy person, there'd be many, many fast cycles. 
How many meetings do I have today? Did I respond to Bob about that quarterly 
report? Did I feed the cat? Shut off the coffee pot? Blah, blah, blah internal 
dialogue. The cycle that's entertaining killing Joe doesn't really have a 
chance of percolating up to the big cycles.

But the sick person, the incel in the basement ranting on Gab.com about Jewish 
Space Lasers, doesn't have as many competing fast cycles. It's easy for a 
single cycle to resonate and later dominate that slow cycle. I suppose 
schizophrenia might be a counter example, or on the opposite end of the 
spectrum, too many fast cycles to allow for coherence in the slow cycles.

Perhaps the only remaining challenge to the model is identifying the neural 
correlates? Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Theta. This lump, that lump. That tissue, this 
tissue.

On 10/28/21 11:05 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> I imagine Greta Thunberg has some ideas pass through her head about thrill 
> kills.   So long as it is all good -- individually as a group -- I say fair 
> enough. 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2021 9:40 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)
> 
> There's an opportunity to dovetail the pandemic-hastened restructuring of the 
> work force, cancel culture, upward trends in socialism, and climate change. 
> At the last salon, I was berated, yet again, for allowing my pet cats free 
> access to the outdoors. The tack I took in the conversation, because we 
> weren't just chatting, we were "in salon" (whatever that means), was a 
> crypto-criticism of Utilitarianism. I chose this because my gank [🎮] of 
> opponents are "ecologists", asserting the debatable devastation of domestic 
> cats on biodiversity. Yes, this post is also about value alignment and the 
> arrogant grand narrative of Societal Engineering for Biodiversity.
> 
> I will not be able to retire, nor will most of the people my age or younger. 
> Or, you could slip a little on the binding and say most of us have retired 
> many times, from many different jobs, to clear space so we can launch a 
> career in another dead-end job. What is it we're doing, as a society? If we 
> buy that cultural evolution is a thing, what are the operators? Are we 
> witnessing new operators or are these the same old operators, just 
> percolating into our privileged space from their endemic home amongst the 
> underprivileged classes. There are several essays on how tribal life was NOT 
> "nasty, brutish, and short", but more laconic ... like a cat's ... explosive 
> efforts of hunt or defend, punctuating periods of resting and fu

Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

Ha! Yeah. I think it's healthy for teenagers to think about killing people. 
Hell, it's healthy for adults to think about killing people. There's a problem 
for the monists, I guess. If it's healthy to think about killing. Is it also 
healthy to actually kill? Or is it a hallmark of health for there to maintain a 
methodological dualism, a (n admittedly fuzzy) line between thought and action?

I've lost it, now. But my phone ringtone used to be the audio output of a 
coupled oscillator model with 4 oscillators. I've lost the PureData model, 
unfortunately. But they're trivial to write. We could imagine a fast cycle 
entertaining the thrill kills of one's favorite target and a slow cycle for the 
actual killing. But for a healthy person, there'd be many, many fast cycles. 
How many meetings do I have today? Did I respond to Bob about that quarterly 
report? Did I feed the cat? Shut off the coffee pot? Blah, blah, blah internal 
dialogue. The cycle that's entertaining killing Joe doesn't really have a 
chance of percolating up to the big cycles.

But the sick person, the incel in the basement ranting on Gab.com about Jewish 
Space Lasers, doesn't have as many competing fast cycles. It's easy for a 
single cycle to resonate and later dominate that slow cycle. I suppose 
schizophrenia might be a counter example, or on the opposite end of the 
spectrum, too many fast cycles to allow for coherence in the slow cycles.

Perhaps the only remaining challenge to the model is identifying the neural 
correlates? Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Theta. This lump, that lump. That tissue, this 
tissue.

On 10/28/21 11:05 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> I imagine Greta Thunberg has some ideas pass through her head about thrill 
> kills.   So long as it is all good -- individually as a group -- I say fair 
> enough. 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2021 9:40 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)
> 
> There's an opportunity to dovetail the pandemic-hastened restructuring of the 
> work force, cancel culture, upward trends in socialism, and climate change. 
> At the last salon, I was berated, yet again, for allowing my pet cats free 
> access to the outdoors. The tack I took in the conversation, because we 
> weren't just chatting, we were "in salon" (whatever that means), was a 
> crypto-criticism of Utilitarianism. I chose this because my gank [🎮] of 
> opponents are "ecologists", asserting the debatable devastation of domestic 
> cats on biodiversity. Yes, this post is also about value alignment and the 
> arrogant grand narrative of Societal Engineering for Biodiversity.
> 
> I will not be able to retire, nor will most of the people my age or younger. 
> Or, you could slip a little on the binding and say most of us have retired 
> many times, from many different jobs, to clear space so we can launch a 
> career in another dead-end job. What is it we're doing, as a society? If we 
> buy that cultural evolution is a thing, what are the operators? Are we 
> witnessing new operators or are these the same old operators, just 
> percolating into our privileged space from their endemic home amongst the 
> underprivileged classes. There are several essays on how tribal life was NOT 
> "nasty, brutish, and short", but more laconic ... like a cat's ... explosive 
> efforts of hunt or defend, punctuating periods of resting and futzing with 
> the tools. Modern "anti-workers" 
> <https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/27/quit-your-job-join-anti-work-movement-elle-hunt>
>  sound a bit like cats, to me.
> 
> Of course, there is the stereotype of a solitary stray living under constant 
> stress, scraping through dumpsters or hunting moths between desperate fights 
> with other strays and their bacteria-poisoned teeth and claws. But this is, I 
> think, a bit of a myth born of fallacious inter-species mind-reading by 
> hedonic humans. Part of the reason cats are so devastating to "wildlife" is 
> because they are not hedonic at all. They've all got a thrill-seeking death 
> wish. Well, most do. We have a cat who has a mental illness, maybe many. She 
> stays in her Princess Dungeon all day every day, only exiting to use the box 
> or make the terrifying journey to the water and food upstairs. But every 
> other cat I've ever interacted with is part of the nihilistic thrill-kill 
> cult. Of course we'll take the rare opportunity to rest comfy in a dry puff 
> of dirty laundry sometimes. But mostly, we'd rather be squinting in the cold 
> rain, statue-still, waiting to pounce, chase, kill, and rend.
> 
> So

Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

[Marcus Daniels]

I imagine Greta Thunberg has some ideas pass through her head about thrill 
kills.   So long as it is all good -- individually as a group -- I say fair 
enough. 

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2021 9:40 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

There's an opportunity to dovetail the pandemic-hastened restructuring of the 
work force, cancel culture, upward trends in socialism, and climate change. At 
the last salon, I was berated, yet again, for allowing my pet cats free access 
to the outdoors. The tack I took in the conversation, because we weren't just 
chatting, we were "in salon" (whatever that means), was a crypto-criticism of 
Utilitarianism. I chose this because my gank [🎮] of opponents are "ecologists", 
asserting the debatable devastation of domestic cats on biodiversity. Yes, this 
post is also about value alignment and the arrogant grand narrative of Societal 
Engineering for Biodiversity.

I will not be able to retire, nor will most of the people my age or younger. 
Or, you could slip a little on the binding and say most of us have retired many 
times, from many different jobs, to clear space so we can launch a career in 
another dead-end job. What is it we're doing, as a society? If we buy that 
cultural evolution is a thing, what are the operators? Are we witnessing new 
operators or are these the same old operators, just percolating into our 
privileged space from their endemic home amongst the underprivileged classes. 
There are several essays on how tribal life was NOT "nasty, brutish, and 
short", but more laconic ... like a cat's ... explosive efforts of hunt or 
defend, punctuating periods of resting and futzing with the tools. Modern 
"anti-workers" 
<https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/27/quit-your-job-join-anti-work-movement-elle-hunt>
 sound a bit like cats, to me.

Of course, there is the stereotype of a solitary stray living under constant 
stress, scraping through dumpsters or hunting moths between desperate fights 
with other strays and their bacteria-poisoned teeth and claws. But this is, I 
think, a bit of a myth born of fallacious inter-species mind-reading by hedonic 
humans. Part of the reason cats are so devastating to "wildlife" is because 
they are not hedonic at all. They've all got a thrill-seeking death wish. Well, 
most do. We have a cat who has a mental illness, maybe many. She stays in her 
Princess Dungeon all day every day, only exiting to use the box or make the 
terrifying journey to the water and food upstairs. But every other cat I've 
ever interacted with is part of the nihilistic thrill-kill cult. Of course 
we'll take the rare opportunity to rest comfy in a dry puff of dirty laundry 
sometimes. But mostly, we'd rather be squinting in the cold rain, statue-still, 
waiting to pounce, chase, kill, and rend.

So, like my cat-hating ecologist gankers, I don't feel pity for the homeless, 
suffering kitten scraping by out there. This is the world. Life sucks. Then you 
die. The trick is learning to enjoy it.

I realize, at the end of my little essay, that it may not be clear how this 
relates to cancel culture or climate change. But, like a joke, explaining it 
ruins it.


[🎮] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_video_game_terms

On 10/27/21 1:32 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> It is confusing to me why retired people would be particularly cautious in 
> their remarks.   What difference does it make if they inflame?  It isn't like 
> they could be fired for it.   Old habits die hard, I guess.

-- 
"Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie."
☤>$ uǝlƃ


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Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

[thompnickson2]

All, 

 

The thing below is an elegant essay, a cri de coeur, that will reward reading, 
if you haven't done so already.  I want to let it stand as is, before I agree 
or disagree with it.  

 

N

 

 

 

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2021 10:40 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

 

There's an opportunity to dovetail the pandemic-hastened restructuring of the 
work force, cancel culture, upward trends in socialism, and climate change. At 
the last salon, I was berated, yet again, for allowing my pet cats free access 
to the outdoors. The tack I took in the conversation, because we weren't just 
chatting, we were "in salon" (whatever that means), was a crypto-criticism of 
Utilitarianism. I chose this because my gank [🎮] of opponents are "ecologists", 
asserting the debatable devastation of domestic cats on biodiversity. Yes, this 
post is also about value alignment and the arrogant grand narrative of Societal 
Engineering for Biodiversity.

 

I will not be able to retire, nor will most of the people my age or younger. 
Or, you could slip a little on the binding and say most of us have retired many 
times, from many different jobs, to clear space so we can launch a career in 
another dead-end job. What is it we're doing, as a society? If we buy that 
cultural evolution is a thing, what are the operators? Are we witnessing new 
operators or are these the same old operators, just percolating into our 
privileged space from their endemic home amongst the underprivileged classes. 
There are several essays on how tribal life was NOT "nasty, brutish, and 
short", but more laconic ... like a cat's ... explosive efforts of hunt or 
defend, punctuating periods of resting and futzing with the tools. Modern 
"anti-workers" < 
<https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/27/quit-your-job-join-anti-work-movement-elle-hunt>
 
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/27/quit-your-job-join-anti-work-movement-elle-hunt>
 sound a bit like cats, to me.

 

Of course, there is the stereotype of a solitary stray living under constant 
stress, scraping through dumpsters or hunting moths between desperate fights 
with other strays and their bacteria-poisoned teeth and claws. But this is, I 
think, a bit of a myth born of fallacious inter-species mind-reading by hedonic 
humans. Part of the reason cats are so devastating to "wildlife" is because 
they are not hedonic at all. They've all got a thrill-seeking death wish. Well, 
most do. We have a cat who has a mental illness, maybe many. She stays in her 
Princess Dungeon all day every day, only exiting to use the box or make the 
terrifying journey to the water and food upstairs. But every other cat I've 
ever interacted with is part of the nihilistic thrill-kill cult. Of course 
we'll take the rare opportunity to rest comfy in a dry puff of dirty laundry 
sometimes. But mostly, we'd rather be squinting in the cold rain, statue-still, 
waiting to pounce, chase, kill, and rend.

 

So, like my cat-hating ecologist gankers, I don't feel pity for the homeless, 
suffering kitten scraping by out there. This is the world. Life sucks. Then you 
die. The trick is learning to enjoy it.

 

I realize, at the end of my little essay, that it may not be clear how this 
relates to cancel culture or climate change. But, like a joke, explaining it 
ruins it.

 

 

[🎮]  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_video_game_terms> 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_video_game_terms

 

On 10/27/21 1:32 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

> It is confusing to me why retired people would be particularly cautious in 
> their remarks.   What difference does it make if they inflame?  It isn't like 
> they could be fired for it.   Old habits die hard, I guess.

 

-- 

"Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie."

☤>$ uǝlƃ

 

 

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Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

There's an opportunity to dovetail the pandemic-hastened restructuring of the 
work force, cancel culture, upward trends in socialism, and climate change. At 
the last salon, I was berated, yet again, for allowing my pet cats free access 
to the outdoors. The tack I took in the conversation, because we weren't just 
chatting, we were "in salon" (whatever that means), was a crypto-criticism of 
Utilitarianism. I chose this because my gank [🎮] of opponents are "ecologists", 
asserting the debatable devastation of domestic cats on biodiversity. Yes, this 
post is also about value alignment and the arrogant grand narrative of Societal 
Engineering for Biodiversity.

I will not be able to retire, nor will most of the people my age or younger. 
Or, you could slip a little on the binding and say most of us have retired many 
times, from many different jobs, to clear space so we can launch a career in 
another dead-end job. What is it we're doing, as a society? If we buy that 
cultural evolution is a thing, what are the operators? Are we witnessing new 
operators or are these the same old operators, just percolating into our 
privileged space from their endemic home amongst the underprivileged classes. 
There are several essays on how tribal life was NOT "nasty, brutish, and 
short", but more laconic ... like a cat's ... explosive efforts of hunt or 
defend, punctuating periods of resting and futzing with the tools. Modern 
"anti-workers" 

 sound a bit like cats, to me.

Of course, there is the stereotype of a solitary stray living under constant 
stress, scraping through dumpsters or hunting moths between desperate fights 
with other strays and their bacteria-poisoned teeth and claws. But this is, I 
think, a bit of a myth born of fallacious inter-species mind-reading by hedonic 
humans. Part of the reason cats are so devastating to "wildlife" is because 
they are not hedonic at all. They've all got a thrill-seeking death wish. Well, 
most do. We have a cat who has a mental illness, maybe many. She stays in her 
Princess Dungeon all day every day, only exiting to use the box or make the 
terrifying journey to the water and food upstairs. But every other cat I've 
ever interacted with is part of the nihilistic thrill-kill cult. Of course 
we'll take the rare opportunity to rest comfy in a dry puff of dirty laundry 
sometimes. But mostly, we'd rather be squinting in the cold rain, statue-still, 
waiting to pounce, chase, kill, and rend.

So, like my cat-hating ecologist gankers, I don't feel pity for the homeless, 
suffering kitten scraping by out there. This is the world. Life sucks. Then you 
die. The trick is learning to enjoy it.

I realize, at the end of my little essay, that it may not be clear how this 
relates to cancel culture or climate change. But, like a joke, explaining it 
ruins it.


[🎮] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_video_game_terms

On 10/27/21 1:32 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> It is confusing to me why retired people would be particularly cautious in 
> their remarks.   What difference does it make if they inflame?  It isn't like 
> they could be fired for it.   Old habits die hard, I guess.

-- 
"Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie."
☤>$ uǝlƃ


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Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
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 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

[thompnickson2]

Marcus, 

I like a vigorous discussion but don't like it when people start to get pissed 
off.  I often can't tell when you guys are pissed off, so I pull back when I 
think I am near the edge.  I don't think it's reputational fear.  Good Lord.   
I do stipulate to having feelings that can be hurt ( I know, not very manly, 
but there it is) and I assume others are the same way.  And it is never my 
[conscious] intent to injure. 

I also like the  two-way square: Permanance/impermanence; Public/ Private.  I 
want to think about that a bit more.  Both are forms of reputational  anxiety.  
I worry more about delayed feedback amplification, which occurs when others 
come late to a disagreement that the main protagonists have settled.
  

Anyway.  Thanks for the comment. 

Nick 

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2021 2:32 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

In my experience it is Nick that raises some dramatic (to him?) sounding topic, 
and then starts to backpedal w.r.t. appropriateness of the forum as soon as 
someone addresses it directly.   It is confusing to me why retired people would 
be particularly cautious in their remarks.   What difference does it make if 
they inflame?  It isn't like they could be fired for it.   Old habits die hard, 
I guess.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2021 12:31 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

How is what I wrote ad hominem? Suggesting you modernists might be suckered 
into a narrative? Calling you a modernist? Is "modernist" an insult? I just 
don't get it. Sorry.

Re: what cannot be said - There are no sacred cows. Anything can be written. 
SteveG does step in to moderate, but rarely. The real argument isn't about what 
cannot be written. It's about the appropriateness of this forum, this type of 
forum, for some *styles* of writing. Email fora are not well-suited to 
chatting. For that, use Twitter, IRC, Discord, Slack, Zoom, group texts, etc. 
That's what they're designed for. Some fora like Instagram and TikTok also 
tolerate chatting nicely. But it's ideally for pictures or short videos. 

In this particular case, your "neener, neener, neener" meaning *might* have 
been clear to me had we been in a different type of forum, one suited to 
chatting. But this ain't it. And, in such a chat-friendly forum, it might also 
be more clear that my calling you a modernist was not an attack on your person 
... though you may perceive it as such, I suppose.

Re: Frank's question of persons other than the participants reading these 
conversations - Let's ask the Eye of Sauron:

https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aredfish.com+thompson&client=firefox-b-1-e&sxsrf=AOaemvKCtwPlUCr4nkZpjQnEipMX_sWOoQ%3A1635362865987&ei=Mah5YZDiO9ja0PEPjPye6AU&ved=0ahUKEwjQvtK1qevzAhVYLTQIHQy-B10Q4dUDCA4&uact=5&oq=site%3Aredfish.com+thompson&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAM6BwgAEEcQsANKBAhBGABQ6RBY6RBg-BJoAXACeACAAYsBiAGLAZIBAzAuMZgBAKABAcgBAsABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz


On 10/27/21 10:39 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> On 10/26/21 12:55 PM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:
>> Well, I'm not fluent enough to know how deeply social contract thinking had 
>> embedded itself in the people who *liked* the document at the time. But 
>> social contracts are only one, very debatable, construction for "inalienable 
>> rights". Just because it makes the most sense to you, doesn't mean it 
>> provides the solid foundation you're looking for. It looks more like 
>> postmodernist sand, to me. You modernists, who faithfully buy into Grand 
>> Narratives that fit your priors would be suckered in by it. But I don't.
>>
> … all packed and gussied up with its ad hominems.  All this is meant to be 
> playful, and the moment it stops being fun, is the moment it should stop.  If 
> I have brought us there, please accept my apologies and let’s let it go. 
> 
>  
> 
> All this is trivial compared to Glen’s suggestion that we have to be careful 
> what we say here, not just because of possible hurts endured by one another 
> (which I do care about) but because of who might be listening.  This is the 
> second such suggestion from a person I deeply respect that has been offered 
> me this week and I find it deeply concerning.   I am so used to the freedom 
> that my professional obscurity conveys that I never worry about such 
> reputational concerns.  Also, being an up-tight easterner, I am probably more 
> self-canceling than many of you

Re: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

[Marcus Daniels]

In my experience it is Nick that raises some dramatic (to him?) sounding topic, 
and then starts to backpedal w.r.t. appropriateness of the forum as soon as 
someone addresses it directly.   It is confusing to me why retired people would 
be particularly cautious in their remarks.   What difference does it make if 
they inflame?  It isn't like they could be fired for it.   Old habits die hard, 
I guess.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2021 12:31 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: [FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

How is what I wrote ad hominem? Suggesting you modernists might be suckered 
into a narrative? Calling you a modernist? Is "modernist" an insult? I just 
don't get it. Sorry.

Re: what cannot be said - There are no sacred cows. Anything can be written. 
SteveG does step in to moderate, but rarely. The real argument isn't about what 
cannot be written. It's about the appropriateness of this forum, this type of 
forum, for some *styles* of writing. Email fora are not well-suited to 
chatting. For that, use Twitter, IRC, Discord, Slack, Zoom, group texts, etc. 
That's what they're designed for. Some fora like Instagram and TikTok also 
tolerate chatting nicely. But it's ideally for pictures or short videos. 

In this particular case, your "neener, neener, neener" meaning *might* have 
been clear to me had we been in a different type of forum, one suited to 
chatting. But this ain't it. And, in such a chat-friendly forum, it might also 
be more clear that my calling you a modernist was not an attack on your person 
... though you may perceive it as such, I suppose.

Re: Frank's question of persons other than the participants reading these 
conversations - Let's ask the Eye of Sauron:

https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aredfish.com+thompson&client=firefox-b-1-e&sxsrf=AOaemvKCtwPlUCr4nkZpjQnEipMX_sWOoQ%3A1635362865987&ei=Mah5YZDiO9ja0PEPjPye6AU&ved=0ahUKEwjQvtK1qevzAhVYLTQIHQy-B10Q4dUDCA4&uact=5&oq=site%3Aredfish.com+thompson&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAM6BwgAEEcQsANKBAhBGABQ6RBY6RBg-BJoAXACeACAAYsBiAGLAZIBAzAuMZgBAKABAcgBAsABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz


On 10/27/21 10:39 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> On 10/26/21 12:55 PM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:
>> Well, I'm not fluent enough to know how deeply social contract thinking had 
>> embedded itself in the people who *liked* the document at the time. But 
>> social contracts are only one, very debatable, construction for "inalienable 
>> rights". Just because it makes the most sense to you, doesn't mean it 
>> provides the solid foundation you're looking for. It looks more like 
>> postmodernist sand, to me. You modernists, who faithfully buy into Grand 
>> Narratives that fit your priors would be suckered in by it. But I don't.
>>
> … all packed and gussied up with its ad hominems.  All this is meant to be 
> playful, and the moment it stops being fun, is the moment it should stop.  If 
> I have brought us there, please accept my apologies and let’s let it go. 
> 
>  
> 
> All this is trivial compared to Glen’s suggestion that we have to be careful 
> what we say here, not just because of possible hurts endured by one another 
> (which I do care about) but because of who might be listening.  This is the 
> second such suggestion from a person I deeply respect that has been offered 
> me this week and I find it deeply concerning.   I am so used to the freedom 
> that my professional obscurity conveys that I never worry about such 
> reputational concerns.  Also, being an up-tight easterner, I am probably more 
> self-canceling than many of you.  Finally, my die is already cast.  But 
> */should I/* be listening to what I write with an Other Ear?  For your sakes, 
> at least? 
> 
>  
> 
> I suggest we start another thread:  “What Cannot Be Said On Friam” and 
> explore this matter carefully. 

-- 
"Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie."
☤>$ uǝlƃ


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[FRIAM] Forum abuse! (was Revising the American Revolution)

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

How is what I wrote ad hominem? Suggesting you modernists might be suckered 
into a narrative? Calling you a modernist? Is "modernist" an insult? I just 
don't get it. Sorry.

Re: what cannot be said - There are no sacred cows. Anything can be written. 
SteveG does step in to moderate, but rarely. The real argument isn't about what 
cannot be written. It's about the appropriateness of this forum, this type of 
forum, for some *styles* of writing. Email fora are not well-suited to 
chatting. For that, use Twitter, IRC, Discord, Slack, Zoom, group texts, etc. 
That's what they're designed for. Some fora like Instagram and TikTok also 
tolerate chatting nicely. But it's ideally for pictures or short videos. 

In this particular case, your "neener, neener, neener" meaning *might* have 
been clear to me had we been in a different type of forum, one suited to 
chatting. But this ain't it. And, in such a chat-friendly forum, it might also 
be more clear that my calling you a modernist was not an attack on your person 
... though you may perceive it as such, I suppose.

Re: Frank's question of persons other than the participants reading these 
conversations - Let's ask the Eye of Sauron:

https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aredfish.com+thompson&client=firefox-b-1-e&sxsrf=AOaemvKCtwPlUCr4nkZpjQnEipMX_sWOoQ%3A1635362865987&ei=Mah5YZDiO9ja0PEPjPye6AU&ved=0ahUKEwjQvtK1qevzAhVYLTQIHQy-B10Q4dUDCA4&uact=5&oq=site%3Aredfish.com+thompson&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAM6BwgAEEcQsANKBAhBGABQ6RBY6RBg-BJoAXACeACAAYsBiAGLAZIBAzAuMZgBAKABAcgBAsABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz


On 10/27/21 10:39 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> On 10/26/21 12:55 PM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:
>> Well, I'm not fluent enough to know how deeply social contract thinking had 
>> embedded itself in the people who *liked* the document at the time. But 
>> social contracts are only one, very debatable, construction for "inalienable 
>> rights". Just because it makes the most sense to you, doesn't mean it 
>> provides the solid foundation you're looking for. It looks more like 
>> postmodernist sand, to me. You modernists, who faithfully buy into Grand 
>> Narratives that fit your priors would be suckered in by it. But I don't.
>>
> … all packed and gussied up with its ad hominems.  All this is meant to be 
> playful, and the moment it stops being fun, is the moment it should stop.  If 
> I have brought us there, please accept my apologies and let’s let it go. 
> 
>  
> 
> All this is trivial compared to Glen’s suggestion that we have to be careful 
> what we say here, not just because of possible hurts endured by one another 
> (which I do care about) but because of who might be listening.  This is the 
> second such suggestion from a person I deeply respect that has been offered 
> me this week and I find it deeply concerning.   I am so used to the freedom 
> that my professional obscurity conveys that I never worry about such 
> reputational concerns.  Also, being an up-tight easterner, I am probably more 
> self-canceling than many of you.  Finally, my die is already cast.  But 
> */should I/* be listening to what I write with an Other Ear?  For your sakes, 
> at least? 
> 
>  
> 
> I suggest we start another thread:  “What Cannot Be Said On Friam” and 
> explore this matter carefully. 

-- 
"Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie."
☤>$ uǝlƃ


.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/