Re: [FRIAM] I am not Unique

[Marcus Daniels]

A little bit of internet research will do that to, as your post demonstrates.

On Jun 25, 2023, at 12:59 PM, Tom Johnson  wrote:


For me, there is at least a fifth reason to travel: to learn how other 
countries and cultures do things, usually better than we do in the U.S. For 
example:

  *   The use of cable cars in La 
Paz,
 Bolivia to reduce traffic in the geographically challenged city.
  *   The creative use of escalators in Medellin, 
Colombia
 to provide efficient transportation to work for the poor living on the steep 
slopes of the city's mountains. Not only have they benefitted the residents, 
but they have enhanced the culture by building libraries and community centers 
at transition points in the system.
  *   Again in Colombia, the major cities are divided into economic zones 
reflecting the income of residents.  I recall that the zones are 1 to 5, and 
the designation is even posted on street signs. The key, however, is that 
things like utility bills are pegged to the zones -- Zones #1 paying far less 
than each higher zone.
  *   Cities all over the world that attract tourists enhance their local 
economies -- and elevate the tourists' experience -- by closing off streets in 
the cities' historic districts to cars. (Hey, Santa Fe, are you listening?)
  *   How about international airports that (a) provide luggage cars for free; 
(b) have directional signs in multiple languages, (c) have multi-lingual hosts 
and hostesses to give directions (in Mexico City, many of these folks are in 
wheelchairs; in Bangkok, many are attractive young women in traditional dress)
  *   South Africa has something like 13 "official" languages. Go into its 
parliament visitors' gallery, put on headphones and dial up the simultaneous 
translation on any one of them. Ever tried to get even Spanish in the NM 
legislature?

I am sure many of you can suggest more.
Tom



On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 12:42 PM Marcus Daniels 
mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
I can think of four different reasons to travel: To find new opportunities (for 
business), to learn about the different constraints that cultures impose by 
experiencing them, to enjoy pleasant physical locations, and for social 
conspicuous consumption reasons (for show).   Some of them are at odds, some 
can be aligned.

On Jun 25, 2023, at 9:24 AM, Edward Angel 
mailto:an...@cs.unm.edu>> wrote:

 Personally, I found that article was terrible. Maybe the New Yorker is the 
appropriate place as it reminds of many New Yorkers’ attitude about the rest of 
the world.

I’ve spent over 50 years  in travel (not tourism) in around 80 countries, lived 
in four, visited over 20 professionally, trekked in four. I wouldn’t be the 
person I am without all the years of travel (even though the author claims I 
can’t make such a statement saying  "note that this phenomenon can’t be 
assessed first-personally"). Travel has been at least as important to me as all 
the years I’ve spent in academia.

The most fundamental problem with the article is that she does not distinguish 
between tourists, for which many of her rants may be true vs travelers who are 
very different from tourists. I can think of very few of my experiences that 

Re: [FRIAM] I am not Unique

[Tom Johnson]

For me, there is at least a fifth reason to travel:* to learn* how other
countries and cultures do things, usually better than we do in the U.S. For
example:

   - The use of cable cars in La Paz
   
,
   Bolivia to reduce traffic in the geographically challenged city.
   - The creative use of escalators in Medellin, Colombia
   

   to provide efficient transportation to work for the poor living on the
   steep slopes of the city's mountains. Not only have they benefitted the
   residents, but they have enhanced the culture by building libraries and
   community centers at transition points in the system.
   - Again in Colombia, the major cities are divided into economic zones
   reflecting the income of residents.  I recall that the zones are 1 to 5,
   and the designation is even posted on street signs. The key, however, is
   that things like utility bills are pegged to the zones -- Zones #1 paying
   far less than each higher zone.
   - Cities all over the world that attract tourists enhance their local
   economies -- and elevate the tourists' experience -- by closing off streets
   in the cities' historic districts to cars. (Hey, Santa Fe, are you
   listening?)
   - How about international airports that (a) provide luggage cars for
   free; (b) have directional signs in multiple languages, (c) have
   multi-lingual hosts and hostesses to give directions (in Mexico City, many
   of these folks are in wheelchairs; in Bangkok, many are attractive young
   women in traditional dress)
   - South Africa has something like 13 "official" languages. Go into its
   parliament visitors' gallery, put on headphones and dial up the
   simultaneous translation on any one of them. Ever tried to get even Spanish
   in the NM legislature?

I am sure many of you can suggest more.
Tom



On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 12:42 PM Marcus Daniels 
wrote:

> I can think of four different reasons to travel: To find new opportunities
> (for business), to learn about the different constraints that cultures
> impose by experiencing them, to enjoy pleasant physical locations, and for
> social conspicuous consumption reasons (for show).   Some of them are at
> odds, some can be aligned.
>
> On Jun 25, 2023, at 9:24 AM, Edward Angel  wrote:
>
>  Personally, I found that article was terrible. Maybe the New Yorker is
> the appropriate place as it reminds of many New Yorkers’ attitude about the
> rest of the world.
>
> I’ve spent over 50 years  in travel (not tourism) in around 80 countries,
> lived in four, visited over 20 professionally, trekked in four. I wouldn’t
> be the person I am without all the years of travel (even though the author
> claims I can’t make such a statement saying  "note that this phenomenon
> can’t be assessed first-personally"). Travel has been at least as
> important to me as all the years I’ve spent in academia.
>
> The most fundamental problem with the article is that she does not
> distinguish between tourists, for which many of her rants may be true vs
> travelers who are very different from tourists. I can think of very few of
> my experiences that fit into the former category. It’s also hard to take
> anyone seriously who on one hand makes fun of the mass ot 

Re: [FRIAM] I am not Unique

[Marcus Daniels]

I can think of four different reasons to travel: To find new opportunities (for 
business), to learn about the different constraints that cultures impose by 
experiencing them, to enjoy pleasant physical locations, and for social 
conspicuous consumption reasons (for show).   Some of them are at odds, some 
can be aligned.

On Jun 25, 2023, at 9:24 AM, Edward Angel  wrote:

 Personally, I found that article was terrible. Maybe the New Yorker is the 
appropriate place as it reminds of many New Yorkers’ attitude about the rest of 
the world.

I’ve spent over 50 years  in travel (not tourism) in around 80 countries, lived 
in four, visited over 20 professionally, trekked in four. I wouldn’t be the 
person I am without all the years of travel (even though the author claims I 
can’t make such a statement saying  "note that this phenomenon can’t be 
assessed first-personally"). Travel has been at least as important to me as all 
the years I’ve spent in academia.

The most fundamental problem with the article is that she does not distinguish 
between tourists, for which many of her rants may be true vs travelers who are 
very different from tourists. I can think of very few of my experiences that 
fit into the former category. It’s also hard to take anyone seriously who on 
one hand makes fun of the mass ot tourists who visit the Louvre so they could 
say they’ve seen the Mona Lisa for 1 minute who then goes to Paris and makes an 
effort not to see the Louvre.

I’ll admit I have no interest in understanding or writing about her work as a 
philosopher. I’d hope she’s have the humility not to pretend she is an expert 
on travel.

Ed

___

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home)   an...@cs.unm.edu
505-453-4944 (cell)  http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On Jun 24, 2023, at 6:10 PM, Frank Wimberly  wrote:

Thanks, Russ.  I posted that because I've been bugging certain Friam attendees 
about why they travel so much.  I say there's no place that I'd rather be than 
Santa Fe so I tend to stay here.

It's not that I haven't traveled.  I remember being moved when I stood at the 
place where Thomas Becket was murdered in Canterbury Cathedral; there was 
nobody else there at that moment.  I was amused that the waiters in hotels in 
London would reply, "Thank you very much, sir" when I thanked them.  I was 
being a tourist then.

In the mid-nineties my wife and I traveled to Mexico several times.  I like 
Mexicans and they like speaking Spanish to Gringos.  Some of those trips were 
for the purpose of cultivating relationships to help with our wish to adopt a 
Mexican child.  I believe that in Mexico more than in some other places whom 
you know affects what you can do.  There were 90 adoptions by US couples in 
Mexico that year (1997) while there were several thousand in each of Russia and 
China.  I didn't feel like a tourist during those trips.

Our daughter Flor, her husband and kids are all in our house right now.  They 
live in Santa Fe near the Airport.

Frank
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sat, Jun 24, 2023, 4:49 PM Russ Abbott 
mailto:russ.abb...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Frank, Thanks for the link.

Agnes Callard, the author of the article, sneers at tourists who visit Paris in 
order to visit the Louvre in order to see the Mona Lisa (and then spend 45 
seconds looking at it)--because that's what one does in Paris. But presumably, 
Callard would find it perfectly acceptable to visit Paris in order to visit the 
Louvre in order to see the Mona Lisa, and then spend hours examining Da Vinci's 
brush strokes.

What's the difference between these two kinds of activities? Callard quotes 
Emerson, who is not critical of "a person who travels when his 'necessities' or 
'duties' demand it. Nor does Emerson object to traversing great distances 'for 
the purpose of art, of study, and benevolence,'” as in the case of the student 
of DaVinci's painting technique. Here's a clue. Callard defines "tourism" as 
the kind of travel that aims at the interesting—and, if Emerson and company are 
right, misses."

In other words, one will not find "the interesting" by going in search of it. 
The same goes for happiness. One will not find happiness by going in search of 
it. These are both consequences of other activities and make no sense as 
stand-alone goals.

-- Russ Abbott
Professor Emeritus, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles


On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 2:13 PM Frank Wimberly 
mailto:wimber...@gmail.com>> wrote:
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/the-weekend-essay/the-case-against-travel

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM 

Re: [FRIAM] I am not Unique

[Edward Angel]

Personally, I found that article was terrible. Maybe the New Yorker is the 
appropriate place as it reminds of many New Yorkers’ attitude about the rest of 
the world.

I’ve spent over 50 years  in travel (not tourism) in around 80 countries, lived 
in four, visited over 20 professionally, trekked in four. I wouldn’t be the 
person I am without all the years of travel (even though the author claims I 
can’t make such a statement saying  "note that this phenomenon can’t be 
assessed first-personally"). Travel has been at least as important to me as all 
the years I’ve spent in academia.

The most fundamental problem with the article is that she does not distinguish 
between tourists, for which many of her rants may be true vs travelers who are 
very different from tourists. I can think of very few of my experiences that 
fit into the former category. It’s also hard to take anyone seriously who on 
one hand makes fun of the mass ot tourists who visit the Louvre so they could 
say they’ve seen the Mona Lisa for 1 minute who then goes to Paris and makes an 
effort not to see the Louvre.

I’ll admit I have no interest in understanding or writing about her work as a 
philosopher. I’d hope she’s have the humility not to pretend she is an expert 
on travel.

Ed

___

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) an...@cs.unm.edu 

505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

> On Jun 24, 2023, at 6:10 PM, Frank Wimberly  wrote:
> 
> Thanks, Russ.  I posted that because I've been bugging certain Friam 
> attendees about why they travel so much.  I say there's no place that I'd 
> rather be than Santa Fe so I tend to stay here.
> 
> It's not that I haven't traveled.  I remember being moved when I stood at the 
> place where Thomas Becket was murdered in Canterbury Cathedral; there was 
> nobody else there at that moment.  I was amused that the waiters in hotels in 
> London would reply, "Thank you very much, sir" when I thanked them.  I was 
> being a tourist then.
> 
> In the mid-nineties my wife and I traveled to Mexico several times.  I like 
> Mexicans and they like speaking Spanish to Gringos.  Some of those trips were 
> for the purpose of cultivating relationships to help with our wish to adopt a 
> Mexican child.  I believe that in Mexico more than in some other places whom 
> you know affects what you can do.  There were 90 adoptions by US couples in 
> Mexico that year (1997) while there were several thousand in each of Russia 
> and China.  I didn't feel like a tourist during those trips.
> 
> Our daughter Flor, her husband and kids are all in our house right now.  They 
> live in Santa Fe near the Airport.
> 
> Frank
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> 
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
> 
> On Sat, Jun 24, 2023, 4:49 PM Russ Abbott  > wrote:
>> Frank, Thanks for the link.
>> 
>> Agnes Callard, the author of the article, sneers at tourists who visit Paris 
>> in order to visit the Louvre in order to see the Mona Lisa (and then spend 
>> 45 seconds looking at it)--because that's what one does in Paris. But 
>> presumably, Callard would find it perfectly acceptable to visit Paris in 
>> order to visit the Louvre in order to see the Mona Lisa, and then spend 
>> hours examining Da Vinci's brush strokes. 
>> 
>> What's the difference between these two kinds of activities? Callard quotes 
>> Emerson, who is not critical of "a person who travels when his 'necessities' 
>> or 'duties' demand it. Nor does Emerson object to traversing great distances 
>> 'for the purpose of art, of study, and benevolence,'” as in the case of the 
>> student of DaVinci's painting technique. Here's a clue. Callard defines 
>> "tourism" as the kind of travel that aims at the interesting—and, if Emerson 
>> and company are right, misses."
>> 
>> In other words, one will not find "the interesting" by going in search of 
>> it. The same goes for happiness. One will not find happiness by going in 
>> search of it. These are both consequences of other activities and make no 
>> sense as stand-alone goals. 
>> 
>> -- Russ Abbott   
>> Professor Emeritus, Computer Science
>> California State University, Los Angeles
>> 
>> 
>> On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 2:13 PM Frank Wimberly > > wrote:
>>> https://www.newyorker.com/culture/the-weekend-essay/the-case-against-travel
>>> 
>>> ---
>>> Frank C. Wimberly
>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>> 
>>> 505 670-9918
>>> Santa Fe, NM
>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 

Re: [FRIAM] I am not Unique

[Frank Wimberly]

Thanks, Russ.  I posted that because I've been bugging certain Friam
attendees about why they travel so much.  I say there's no place that I'd
rather be than Santa Fe so I tend to stay here.

It's not that I haven't traveled.  I remember being moved when I stood at
the place where Thomas Becket was murdered in Canterbury Cathedral; there
was nobody else there at that moment.  I was amused that the waiters in
hotels in London would reply, "Thank you very much, sir" when I thanked
them.  I was being a tourist then.

In the mid-nineties my wife and I traveled to Mexico several times.  I like
Mexicans and they like speaking Spanish to Gringos.  Some of those trips
were for the purpose of cultivating relationships to help with our wish to
adopt a Mexican child.  I believe that in Mexico more than in some other
places whom you know affects what you can do.  There were 90 adoptions by
US couples in Mexico that year (1997) while there were several thousand in
each of Russia and China.  I didn't feel like a tourist during those trips.

Our daughter Flor, her husband and kids are all in our house right now.
They live in Santa Fe near the Airport.

Frank
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sat, Jun 24, 2023, 4:49 PM Russ Abbott  wrote:

> Frank, Thanks for the link.
>
> Agnes Callard, the author of the article, sneers at tourists who visit
> Paris in order to visit the Louvre in order to see the Mona Lisa (and then
> spend 45 seconds looking at it)--because that's what one does in Paris. But
> presumably, Callard would find it perfectly acceptable to visit Paris in
> order to visit the Louvre in order to see the Mona Lisa, and then spend
> hours examining Da Vinci's brush strokes.
>
> What's the difference between these two kinds of activities? Callard
> quotes Emerson, who is not critical of "a person who travels when his
> 'necessities' or 'duties' demand it. Nor does Emerson object to traversing
> great distances 'for the purpose of art, of study, and benevolence,'” as in
> the case of the student of DaVinci's painting technique. Here's a clue.
> Callard defines "tourism" as the kind of travel that aims at the
> interesting—and, if Emerson and company are right, misses."
>
> In other words, one will not find "the interesting" by going in search of
> it. The same goes for happiness. One will not find happiness by going in
> search of it. These are both consequences of other activities and make no
> sense as stand-alone goals.
>
> -- Russ Abbott
> Professor Emeritus, Computer Science
> California State University, Los Angeles
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 2:13 PM Frank Wimberly 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> https://www.newyorker.com/culture/the-weekend-essay/the-case-against-travel
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
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>>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
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Re: [FRIAM] I am not Unique

[glen]

Goodhart's Law.

On June 24, 2023 3:48:14 PM PDT, Russ Abbott  wrote:
>Frank, Thanks for the link.
>
>Agnes Callard, the author of the article, sneers at tourists who visit
>Paris in order to visit the Louvre in order to see the Mona Lisa (and then
>spend 45 seconds looking at it)--because that's what one does in Paris. But
>presumably, Callard would find it perfectly acceptable to visit Paris in
>order to visit the Louvre in order to see the Mona Lisa, and then spend
>hours examining Da Vinci's brush strokes.
>
>What's the difference between these two kinds of activities? Callard quotes
>Emerson, who is not critical of "a person who travels when his
>'necessities' or 'duties' demand it. Nor does Emerson object to traversing
>great distances 'for the purpose of art, of study, and benevolence,'” as in
>the case of the student of DaVinci's painting technique. Here's a clue.
>Callard defines "tourism" as the kind of travel that aims at the
>interesting—and, if Emerson and company are right, misses."
>
>In other words, one will not find "the interesting" by going in search of
>it. The same goes for happiness. One will not find happiness by going in
>search of it. These are both consequences of other activities and make no
>sense as stand-alone goals.
>
>-- Russ Abbott
>Professor Emeritus, Computer Science
>California State University, Los Angeles
>
>
>On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 2:13 PM Frank Wimberly  wrote:
>
>> https://www.newyorker.com/culture/the-weekend-essay/the-case-against-travel
>>

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Re: [FRIAM] I am not Unique

[Russ Abbott]

Frank, Thanks for the link.

Agnes Callard, the author of the article, sneers at tourists who visit
Paris in order to visit the Louvre in order to see the Mona Lisa (and then
spend 45 seconds looking at it)--because that's what one does in Paris. But
presumably, Callard would find it perfectly acceptable to visit Paris in
order to visit the Louvre in order to see the Mona Lisa, and then spend
hours examining Da Vinci's brush strokes.

What's the difference between these two kinds of activities? Callard quotes
Emerson, who is not critical of "a person who travels when his
'necessities' or 'duties' demand it. Nor does Emerson object to traversing
great distances 'for the purpose of art, of study, and benevolence,'” as in
the case of the student of DaVinci's painting technique. Here's a clue.
Callard defines "tourism" as the kind of travel that aims at the
interesting—and, if Emerson and company are right, misses."

In other words, one will not find "the interesting" by going in search of
it. The same goes for happiness. One will not find happiness by going in
search of it. These are both consequences of other activities and make no
sense as stand-alone goals.

-- Russ Abbott
Professor Emeritus, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles


On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 2:13 PM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> https://www.newyorker.com/culture/the-weekend-essay/the-case-against-travel
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:  5/2017 thru present
> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
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[FRIAM] I am not Unique

[Frank Wimberly]

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/the-weekend-essay/the-case-against-travel

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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