Thanks to all who responded in much more courteous terms than my present title! A'course, it reminded me and well should I have remembered! But "old men forget" as da Bard had it (Lear). My old tutor (thesis advisor in these parts, (one S.W., for those in the know )) was one of the "Bletchley Boys" who cracked Enigma in WW II. And, as a math grad student, I well remember more than 1/2 century ago hearing his tales as we looked out over the rainy rooftops of Cambridge! A'course, the Enigma Machine was entirely deterministic, mechanical, but verrray complicated. Wheels within wheels!! New setting each morning! I can imagine some totally bored Wehrmacht Feldwebel cranking away at this horizontal axis coffee grinder while he slurped his ersatz Kaffee and wished he had some sugar! The Brits said, languidly and typically Englishly, "we usually managed to 'sort out' the day's code by tea time". Also, being an honorable Englishman, (there were still a few left then), my tutor said very little of substance because the Official Secrets Act ran for 50 years. My remarks are really meant entertain, so thanks to all for putting up with this BS!!!
Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for. 1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505 TEL: (505) 983-7728 FAX: (505) 983-1694 > [Original Message] > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <friam@redfish.com> > Date: 7/22/2007 10:02:51 AM > Subject: Friam Digest, Vol 49, Issue 20 > > Send Friam mailing list submissions to > friam@redfish.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Friam digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Why "true" random? (Peter Lissaman) > 2. Re: Why "true" random? (Robert Holmes) > 3. Re: Why "true" random? (Russell Standish) > 4. Re: Why "true" random? (Prof David West) > 5. Re: Why "true" random? (Phil Henshaw) > 6. Re: Why "true" random? (Douglas Roberts) > 7. Re: Why "true" random? (Phil Henshaw) > 8. Re: Why "true" random? (Roger Frye) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 10:24:42 -0600 > From: "Peter Lissaman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [FRIAM] Why "true" random? > To: friam@redfish.com > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Why is it important (except intellectually) to have "true" randomness??? I very well remember the early, good old, bad old, days of Aerospace, in the 50's, when we were really doing practical earthshattering things -- like going to the moon -- sans computers!! The RAND corporation, for whom I consulted, published a typed book (size of a Manhattan telephone directory) of "random" numbers for engineering application. Much entertainment was occasioned when, about three months later, they distributed a list of "typos" to their original list of random numbers. Today I use homemade random numbers alla time for real problems, specifically the actual response of real flight vehicles in real atmospheric turbulence. Flight tests support analysis, in the sense that what we predict is not obviously incorrect. We have never found it necessary to utilize any more "perfectly random" "random" sequences! > > > Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures > > Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for. > > 1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505 > TEL: (505) 983-7728 FAX: (505) 983-1694 > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20070721/e01d235d /attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 13:34:44 -0600 > From: "Robert Holmes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why "true" random? > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity > Coffee Group" <friam@redfish.com> > Message-ID: > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Cryptography. The required robustness of a random generator is highly > sensitive to the intended application; > > - Generating a "thought for the day" for your blog? Required > randomness = low. > - Response testing a missile system? Required randomness = medium > - Stealing above test results, encrypting them and transmitting them > to Al Quaeda in a form that you hope the NSA won't understand? Required > randomness = high > > Robert > > On 7/21/07, Peter Lissaman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Why is it important (except intellectually) to have "true" randomness??? > > I very well remember the early, good old, bad old, days of Aerospace, in the > > 50's, when we were really doing practical earthshattering things -- like > > going to the moon -- sans computers!! The RAND corporation, for whom I > > consulted, published a typed book (size of a Manhattan telephone directory) > > of "random" numbers for engineering application. Much entertainment was > > occasioned when, about three months later, they distributed a list of > > "typos" to their original list of random numbers. Today I use homemade > > random numbers alla time for real problems, specifically the actual response > > of real flight vehicles in real atmospheric turbulence. Flight tests > > support analysis, in the sense that what we predict is not obviously > > incorrect. We have never found it necessary to utilize any more "perfectly > > random" "random" sequences! > > > > > > Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures > > > > Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for. > > > > 1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505 > > TEL: (505) 983-7728 FAX: (505) 983-1694 > > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20070721/bd58347a /attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 14:27:33 +1000 > From: Russell Standish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why "true" random? > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], The Friday Morning Applied Complexity > Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Cryptographic applications require true randomness. If your cipher > used on a pseudo-random number generator, then a cracker discovering > your algorithm and key has broken your code. > > I also have a hunch that genuine randomness is needed for open-ended > evolutionary systems. Here, the evol algorithm is in the position of > the code cracker, and once the code is cracked, the evol algorithm > stops. I had a workshop paper on this in 2004, which has some problems > with it. The concept is controversial, to say the least. > > Cheers > > On Sat, Jul 21, 2007 at 10:24:42AM -0600, Peter Lissaman wrote: > > Why is it important (except intellectually) to have "true" randomness??? I very well remember the early, good old, bad old, days of Aerospace, in the 50's, when we were really doing practical earthshattering things -- like going to the moon -- sans computers!! The RAND corporation, for whom I consulted, published a typed book (size of a Manhattan telephone directory) of "random" numbers for engineering application. Much entertainment was occasioned when, about three months later, they distributed a list of "typos" to their original list of random numbers. Today I use homemade random numbers alla time for real problems, specifically the actual response of real flight vehicles in real atmospheric turbulence. Flight tests support analysis, in the sense that what we predict is not obviously incorrect. We have never found it necessary to utilize any more "perfectly random" "random" sequences! > > > > > > Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures > > > > Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for. > > > > 1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505 > > TEL: (505) 983-7728 FAX: (505) 983-1694 > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > -- > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) > Mathematics > UNSW SYDNEY 2052 [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Australia http://www.hpcoders.com.au > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 21:55:30 -0400 > From: "Prof David West" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why "true" random? > To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group" > <friam@redfish.com> > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > > > > " cryptography ... missile system ... encrypting ... transmitting ... > Al Quaeda ... NSA" sequence occurring twice within 7 hours in the same > mail-list. Somewhere in VA a computer just burped. Expect the black > helicopters within 24 hours. :) > > davew > > On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 13:34:44 -0600, "Robert Holmes" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > > Cryptography. The required robustness of a random generator is highly > > sensitive to the intended application; > > > > - Generating a "thought for the day" for your blog? Required > > randomness = low. > > - Response testing a missile system? Required randomness = medium > > - Stealing above test results, encrypting them and transmitting them > > to Al Quaeda in a form that you hope the NSA won't understand? > > Required > > randomness = high > > > > Robert > > > > On 7/21/07, Peter Lissaman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > Why is it important (except intellectually) to have "true" randomness??? > > > I very well remember the early, good old, bad old, days of Aerospace, in the > > > 50's, when we were really doing practical earthshattering things -- like > > > going to the moon -- sans computers!! The RAND corporation, for whom I > > > consulted, published a typed book (size of a Manhattan telephone directory) > > > of "random" numbers for engineering application. Much entertainment was > > > occasioned when, about three months later, they distributed a list of > > > "typos" to their original list of random numbers. Today I use homemade > > > random numbers alla time for real problems, specifically the actual response > > > of real flight vehicles in real atmospheric turbulence. Flight tests > > > support analysis, in the sense that what we predict is not obviously > > > incorrect. We have never found it necessary to utilize any more "perfectly > > > random" "random" sequences! > > > > > > > > > Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures > > > > > > Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for. > > > > > > 1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505 > > > TEL: (505) 983-7728 FAX: (505) 983-1694 > > > > > > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 23:19:25 -0400 > From: "Phil Henshaw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why "true" random? > To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'" > <friam@redfish.com> > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Or what about 'decynchronization', rather than random noise..to erase > inconvenient pattern? Probably has nothing to do with cryptography, > though, I suppose, as I expect that the sort of lab experiment thing the > people at the SASO conference were talking about has no mathematical > representation as yet, just ways of producing them. At least that's > another property that efficiently hides pattern. It came up that some > of the work on syncronization, that doing the opposite had valuable > proprerties in preventing congestion and surges when used to produce > desynchronized flows. Interesting work though! > > > Phil Henshaw ????.?? ? `?.???? > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > 680 Ft. Washington Ave > NY NY 10040 > tel: 212-795-4844 > e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > explorations: www.synapse9.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell Standish > > Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 12:28 AM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; The Friday Morning Applied > > Complexity Coffee Group > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why "true" random? > > > > > > Cryptographic applications require true randomness. If your > > cipher used on a pseudo-random number generator, then a > > cracker discovering your algorithm and key has broken your code. > > > > I also have a hunch that genuine randomness is needed for > > open-ended evolutionary systems. Here, the evol algorithm is > > in the position of the code cracker, and once the code is > > cracked, the evol algorithm stops. I had a workshop paper on > > this in 2004, which has some problems with it. The concept is > > controversial, to say the least. > > > > Cheers > > > > On Sat, Jul 21, 2007 at 10:24:42AM -0600, Peter Lissaman wrote: > > > Why is it important (except intellectually) to have "true" > > > randomness??? I very well remember the early, good old, > > bad old, days > > > of Aerospace, in the 50's, when we were really doing practical > > > earthshattering things -- like going to the moon -- sans > > computers!! > > > The RAND corporation, for whom I consulted, published a typed book > > > (size of a Manhattan telephone directory) of "random" numbers for > > > engineering application. Much entertainment was occasioned when, > > > about three months later, they distributed a list of > > "typos" to their > > > original list of random numbers. Today I use homemade > > random numbers > > > alla time for real problems, specifically the actual > > response of real > > > flight vehicles in real atmospheric turbulence. Flight > > tests support > > > analysis, in the sense that what we predict is not obviously > > > incorrect. We have never found it necessary to utilize any more > > > "perfectly random" "random" sequences! > > > > > > > > > Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures > > > > > > Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for. > > > > > > 1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505 > > > TEL: (505) 983-7728 FAX: (505) 983-1694 > > > ============================================================ > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, > > > archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > -- > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------- > > A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) > > Mathematics > > UNSW SYDNEY 2052 [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Australia http://www.hpcoders.com.au > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------- > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 23:18:36 -0600 > From: "Douglas Roberts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why "true" random? > To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group" > <friam@redfish.com>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Message-ID: > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Simulations of stochastic processes also require good RN generators, > especially for simulations of large systems with (I hate to use this word) > emergent behavioral properties. A bad RN generator will introduce emergent > behavior that will be "flavored" by a bad random sequences. > > > -- > Doug Roberts, RTI International > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > 505-455-7333 - Office > 505-670-8195 - Cell > > > On 7/20/07, Russell Standish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Cryptographic applications require true randomness. If your cipher > > used on a pseudo-random number generator, then a cracker discovering > > your algorithm and key has broken your code. > > > > I also have a hunch that genuine randomness is needed for open-ended > > evolutionary systems. Here, the evol algorithm is in the position of > > the code cracker, and once the code is cracked, the evol algorithm > > stops. I had a workshop paper on this in 2004, which has some problems > > with it. The concept is controversial, to say the least. > > > > Cheers > > > > On Sat, Jul 21, 2007 at 10:24:42AM -0600, Peter Lissaman wrote: > > > Why is it important (except intellectually) to have "true" > > randomness??? I very well remember the early, good old, bad old, days of > > Aerospace, in the 50's, when we were really doing practical earthshattering > > things -- like going to the moon -- sans computers!! The RAND corporation, > > for whom I consulted, published a typed book (size of a Manhattan telephone > > directory) of "random" numbers for engineering application. Much > > entertainment was occasioned when, about three months later, they > > distributed a list of "typos" to their original list of random > > numbers. Today I use homemade random numbers alla time for real problems, > > specifically the actual response of real flight vehicles in real atmospheric > > turbulence. Flight tests support analysis, in the sense that what we > > predict is not obviously incorrect. We have never found it necessary to > > utilize any more "perfectly random" "random" sequences! > > > > > > > > > Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures > > > > > > Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for. > > > > > > 1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505 > > > TEL: (505) 983-7728 FAX: (505) 983-1694 > > > ============================================================ > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > -- > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) > > Mathematics > > UNSW SYDNEY 2052 [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Australia http://www.hpcoders.com.au > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20070721/bb754afb /attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 08:31:25 -0400 > From: "Phil Henshaw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why "true" random? > To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'" > <friam@redfish.com> > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Not sure really what the inputs always used, but I think these Self-org > & Self-adapt algorithms the SASO engineers were playing with didn't > always use random generators to produce the systemic effects they were > getting. Obviously all input effects all output in some sort of way, > but it was the outcomes that would come from the whole gamete of > unspecified inputs that seemed to be the 'phase space profile' they were > most interested in. > > Many of the papers were on how the inputs could seriously 'misbehave' > and still not screw up the control schemes, often discussed in terms of > 'malicious agent' concepts, of which the real net has plenty real > examples! I also found them very receptive to considering not only > what a malicious person would think of doing to defeat someone else's > operating plan, but also the 'malicious creativity' of natural system > emergence as a focus of design contingencies. > > > > Phil Henshaw ????.?? ? `?.???? > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > 680 Ft. Washington Ave > NY NY 10040 > tel: 212-795-4844 > e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > explorations: www.synapse9.com <http://www.synapse9.com/> > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Douglas Roberts > Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2007 1:19 AM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group; > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why "true" random? > > > Simulations of stochastic processes also require good RN generators, > especially for simulations of large systems with (I hate to use this > word) emergent behavioral properties. A bad RN generator will introduce > emergent behavior that will be "flavored" by a bad random sequences. > > > -- > Doug Roberts, RTI International > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > 505-455-7333 - Office > 505-670-8195 - Cell > > > > On 7/20/07, Russell Standish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Cryptographic applications require true randomness. If your cipher > used on a pseudo-random number generator, then a cracker discovering > your algorithm and key has broken your code. > > I also have a hunch that genuine randomness is needed for open-ended > evolutionary systems. Here, the evol algorithm is in the position of > the code cracker, and once the code is cracked, the evol algorithm > stops. I had a workshop paper on this in 2004, which has some problems > with it. The concept is controversial, to say the least. > > Cheers > > On Sat, Jul 21, 2007 at 10:24:42AM -0600, Peter Lissaman wrote: > > Why is it important (except intellectually) to have "true" > randomness??? I very well remember the early, good old, bad old, days > of Aerospace, in the 50's, when we were really doing practical > earthshattering things -- like going to the moon -- sans computers!! > The RAND corporation, for whom I consulted, published a typed book (size > of a Manhattan telephone directory) of "random" numbers for engineering > application. Much entertainment was occasioned when, about three months > later, they distributed a list of "typos" to their original list of > random numbers. Today I use homemade random numbers alla time for real > problems, specifically the actual response of real flight vehicles in > real atmospheric turbulence. Flight tests support analysis, in the > sense that what we predict is not obviously incorrect. We have never > found it necessary to utilize any more "perfectly random" "random" > sequences! > > > > > > Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures > > > > Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for. > > > > 1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505 > > TEL: (505) 983-7728 FAX: (505) 983-1694 > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > -- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---- > A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) > Mathematics > UNSW SYDNEY 2052 [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Australia http://www.hpcoders.com.au > <http://www.hpcoders.com.au> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---- > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20070722/bef1457b /attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 07:40:10 -0600 > From: "Roger Frye" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why "true" random? > To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group" > <friam@redfish.com> > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; > charset=iso-8859-15 > > I would argue the opposite. While I agree with Doug that you need good > RNGs (though not necessarily true RNGs) in order to avoid bias, the > problem with good pseudo- or true- RNGs is that they have order N^2 > convergence for Monte Carlo simulations. Quasi-random number generators > on the other hand (such as multiples of an irrational square root, or a > Peano tiling) converge in order N. If you can trust the results, faster > conergence lets you simulate more. > -Roger > > On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 23:18:36 -0600, Douglas Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > Simulations of stochastic processes also require good RN generators, > > especially for simulations of large systems with (I hate to use this > > word) > > emergent behavioral properties. A bad RN generator will introduce > > emergent > > behavior that will be "flavored" by a bad random sequences. > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Friam mailing list > Friam@redfish.com > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > > End of Friam Digest, Vol 49, Issue 20 > ************************************* ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
