subject:"\[FRIAM\] Ownership of expired patent"

Re: [FRIAM] Ownership of expired patent

2019-07-06 Thread Ron Newman

Good point on time limit.  I'll check my papers in storage in case they're
there.

Ron Newman, M.S., M.M.E.
Founder, IdeaTreeLive.com  Knowledge Modeling
www.RonPiano.com
Blog 






On Sat, Jul 6, 2019 at 3:30 PM Barry MacKichan <
barry.mackic...@mackichan.com> wrote:

> My understanding is the same as Steve’s, but I’d like to add that most of
> these items can be overridden by other agreements such as NDA, non-compete,
> etc. or the fine print in the work-for-hite agreement. Usually when I had
> these agreements with employees, there was a time limit in the contract.
> Check these if you still have them.
>
> --Barry
>
> On 2 Jul 2019, at 18:55, Stephen Guerin wrote:
>
> Not a lawyer /  this is my understanding.
>
> Yes, the firm owns the copyright to the code and is a form of intellectual
> property independent of patent.
>
> Copyright is owned by the author (or entity that had work-for-hire
> agreements) at the moment of creation.
>
> As an author or someone that had access to proprietary information during
> it's creation, you can not rewrite it in a different language or transfer
> any knowledge to someone who is. it would violate the copyright. If an
> independent person saw the product and wanted to re-implement the
> functionality without access to the code or other proprietary information
> they could do so in a "clean room design" process:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design
>
> -Stephen
> ___
> CEO, Simtable  http://www.simtable.com
> 1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505
> office: (505)995-0206 mobile: (505)577-5828
> twitter: @simtable
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 4:13 PM Ron Newman  wrote:
>
>> P.S.  A more subtle question is what if I rewrote the formerly-patented
>> application in a different language.  Does a work-for-hire cover ideas?  I
>> think it does.
>>
>> Ron Newman, M.S., M.M.E.
>> Founder, IdeaTreeLive.com  Knowledge
>> Modeling
>> www.RonPiano.com
>> Blog 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 4:11 PM Ron Newman  wrote:
>>
>>> I think the patent, which is non-renewable, and the code implementing
>>> the patent are two separate things.  The first they lose rights over, but
>>> the second is covered by a work-for-hire agreement since it could be used
>>> internally, or even sold as a product by the corporation without patent.
>>> But I could be wrong.
>>>
>>> Ron Newman, M.S., M.M.E.
>>> Founder, IdeaTreeLive.com  Knowledge
>>> Modeling
>>> www.RonPiano.com
>>> Blog 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 4:06 PM Tom Johnson  wrote:
>>>
 Would not the corporation have to renew the patent at some point?
 Tom

 
 Tom Johnson - t...@jtjohnson.com
 Institute for Analytic Journalism   -- Santa Fe, NM USA
 505.577.6482(c)505.473.9646(h)
 *NM Foundation for Open Government* 
 *Check out It's The People's Data
 *

 


 On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 3:55 PM Ron Newman  wrote:

> I was awarded a software patent 30 years ago while at a corporate
> job.  That patent has since expired, of course.  I assume I signed a
> work-for-hire agreement the first day on that job.
>
> Now that it's expired, I also assume the corporation still owns the
> code, and so I'm not free to open source it.  Correct?
>
> Any IP attorneys here?
>
> Ron Newman, M.S., M.M.E.
> Founder, IdeaTreeLive.com  Knowledge
> Modeling
> www.RonPiano.com
> Blog 
>
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>
 
 FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
 Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
 to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
 archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
 FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

>>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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>>

Re: [FRIAM] Ownership of expired patent

2019-07-06 Thread Barry MacKichan

My understanding is the same as Steve’s, but I’d like to add that 
most of these items can be overridden by other agreements such as NDA, 
non-compete, etc. or the fine print in the work-for-hite agreement. 
Usually when I had these agreements with employees, there was a time 
limit in the contract. Check these if you still have them.


--Barry

On 2 Jul 2019, at 18:55, Stephen Guerin wrote:


Not a lawyer /  this is my understanding.

Yes, the firm owns the copyright to the code and is a form of 
intellectual

property independent of patent.

Copyright is owned by the author (or entity that had work-for-hire
agreements) at the moment of creation.

As an author or someone that had access to proprietary information 
during
it's creation, you can not rewrite it in a different language or 
transfer

any knowledge to someone who is. it would violate the copyright. If an
independent person saw the product and wanted to re-implement the
functionality without access to the code or other proprietary 
information

they could do so in a "clean room design" process:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design

-Stephen
___
CEO, Simtable  http://www.simtable.com
1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505
office: (505)995-0206 mobile: (505)577-5828
twitter: @simtable


On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 4:13 PM Ron Newman  
wrote:


P.S.  A more subtle question is what if I rewrote the 
formerly-patented
application in a different language.  Does a work-for-hire cover 
ideas?  I

think it does.

Ron Newman, M.S., M.M.E.
Founder, IdeaTreeLive.com  Knowledge 
Modeling

www.RonPiano.com
Blog 






On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 4:11 PM Ron Newman  
wrote:


I think the patent, which is non-renewable, and the code 
implementing the
patent are two separate things.  The first they lose rights over, 
but the
second is covered by a work-for-hire agreement since it could be 
used
internally, or even sold as a product by the corporation without 
patent.

But I could be wrong.

Ron Newman, M.S., M.M.E.
Founder, IdeaTreeLive.com  Knowledge
Modeling
www.RonPiano.com
Blog 






On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 4:06 PM Tom Johnson  
wrote:



Would not the corporation have to renew the patent at some point?
Tom


Tom Johnson - t...@jtjohnson.com
Institute for Analytic Journalism   -- Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c)505.473.9646(h)
*NM Foundation for Open Government* 
*Check out It's The People's Data
*




On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 3:55 PM Ron Newman  
wrote:


I was awarded a software patent 30 years ago while at a corporate 
job.

That patent has since expired, of course.  I assume I signed a
work-for-hire agreement the first day on that job.

Now that it's expired, I also assume the corporation still owns 
the

code, and so I'm not free to open source it.  Correct?

Any IP attorneys here?

Ron Newman, M.S., M.M.E.
Founder, IdeaTreeLive.com  Knowledge
Modeling
www.RonPiano.com
Blog 





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Re: [FRIAM] Ownership of expired patent

2019-07-03 Thread Russell Standish

On Tue, Jul 02, 2019 at 04:55:59PM -0600, Stephen Guerin wrote:
> Not a lawyer /  this is my understanding.
> 
> Yes, the firm owns the copyright to the code and is a form of intellectual
> property independent of patent.
> 
> Copyright is owned by the author (or entity that had work-for-hire agreements)
> at the moment of creation.
> 
> As an author or someone that had access to proprietary information during it's
> creation, you can not rewrite it in a different language or transfer any
> knowledge to someone who is. it would violate the copyright. If an independent
> person saw the product and wanted to re-implement the functionality without
> access to the code or other proprietary information they could do so in a
> "clean room design" process:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design
> 

If you've rewritten the code without access to the original, you
should be safe from copyright infringement. I guess it is a little
harder to prove that you didn't have access to the original code when
once you did, which is perhaps why the clean room design process is
suggested.

You may, however, open yourself up to being sued under any non
disclosure agreement (NDA) you might have signed as part of your
work-for-hire agreement. You should check the exact wording of that
agreement.


> -Stephen
> ___ 
> CEO, Simtable  http://www.simtable.com
> 1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505
> office: (505)995-0206 mobile: (505)577-5828
> twitter: @simtable
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 4:13 PM Ron Newman  wrote:
> 
> P.S.  A more subtle question is what if I rewrote the formerly-patented
> application in a different language.  Does a work-for-hire cover ideas?  I
> think it does.
> 
> Ron Newman, M.S., M.M.E.
> Founder, IdeaTreeLive.com Knowledge Modeling
> www.RonPiano.com
> Blog
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 4:11 PM Ron Newman  wrote:
> 
> I think the patent, which is non-renewable, and the code implementing
> the patent are two separate things.  The first they lose rights over,
> but the second is covered by a work-for-hire agreement since it could
> be used internally, or even sold as a product by the corporation
> without patent.  But I could be wrong.
> 
> Ron Newman, M.S., M.M.E.
> Founder, IdeaTreeLive.com Knowledge Modeling
> www.RonPiano.com
> Blog
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 4:06 PM Tom Johnson  wrote:
> 
> Would not the corporation have to renew the patent at some point?
> Tom
> 
> 
> Tom Johnson - t...@jtjohnson.com
> Institute for Analytic Journalism   -- Santa Fe, NM USA
> 505.577.6482(c)                            505.473.9646(h)
> NM Foundation for Open Government
> Check out It's The People's Data                 
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 3:55 PM Ron Newman 
> wrote:
> 
> I was awarded a software patent 30 years ago while at a
> corporate job.  That patent has since expired, of course.  I
> assume I signed a work-for-hire agreement the first day on 
> that
> job.
> 
> Now that it's expired, I also assume the corporation still 
> owns
> the code, and so I'm not free to open source it.  Correct?
> 
> Any IP attorneys here?
> 
> Ron Newman, M.S., M.M.E.
> Founder, IdeaTreeLive.com Knowledge Modeling
> www.RonPiano.com
> Blog
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/
> friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. 
> Strangelove
> 
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/
> friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
> 
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>

Re: [FRIAM] Ownership of expired patent

2019-07-02 Thread Stephen Guerin

Not a lawyer /  this is my understanding.

Yes, the firm owns the copyright to the code and is a form of intellectual
property independent of patent.

Copyright is owned by the author (or entity that had work-for-hire
agreements) at the moment of creation.

As an author or someone that had access to proprietary information during
it's creation, you can not rewrite it in a different language or transfer
any knowledge to someone who is. it would violate the copyright. If an
independent person saw the product and wanted to re-implement the
functionality without access to the code or other proprietary information
they could do so in a "clean room design" process:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design

-Stephen
___
CEO, Simtable  http://www.simtable.com
1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505
office: (505)995-0206 mobile: (505)577-5828
twitter: @simtable

On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 4:13 PM Ron Newman  wrote:

> P.S.  A more subtle question is what if I rewrote the formerly-patented
> application in a different language.  Does a work-for-hire cover ideas?  I
> think it does.
>
> Ron Newman, M.S., M.M.E.
> Founder, IdeaTreeLive.com  Knowledge Modeling
> www.RonPiano.com
> Blog 
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 4:11 PM Ron Newman  wrote:
>
>> I think the patent, which is non-renewable, and the code implementing the
>> patent are two separate things.  The first they lose rights over, but the
>> second is covered by a work-for-hire agreement since it could be used
>> internally, or even sold as a product by the corporation without patent.
>> But I could be wrong.
>>
>> Ron Newman, M.S., M.M.E.
>> Founder, IdeaTreeLive.com  Knowledge
>> Modeling
>> www.RonPiano.com
>> Blog 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 4:06 PM Tom Johnson  wrote:
>>
>>> Would not the corporation have to renew the patent at some point?
>>> Tom
>>>
>>> 
>>> Tom Johnson - t...@jtjohnson.com
>>> Institute for Analytic Journalism   -- Santa Fe, NM USA
>>> 505.577.6482(c)505.473.9646(h)
>>> *NM Foundation for Open Government* 
>>> *Check out It's The People's Data
>>> *
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 3:55 PM Ron Newman  wrote:
>>>
 I was awarded a software patent 30 years ago while at a corporate job.
 That patent has since expired, of course.  I assume I signed a
 work-for-hire agreement the first day on that job.

 Now that it's expired, I also assume the corporation still owns the
 code, and so I'm not free to open source it.  Correct?

 Any IP attorneys here?

 Ron Newman, M.S., M.M.E.
 Founder, IdeaTreeLive.com  Knowledge
 Modeling
 www.RonPiano.com
 Blog 

 FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
 Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
 to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
 archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
 FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

>>> 
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>>>
>> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] Ownership of expired patent

2019-07-02 Thread Ron Newman

P.S.  A more subtle question is what if I rewrote the formerly-patented
application in a different language.  Does a work-for-hire cover ideas?  I
think it does.

Ron Newman, M.S., M.M.E.
Founder, IdeaTreeLive.com  Knowledge Modeling
www.RonPiano.com
Blog 






On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 4:11 PM Ron Newman  wrote:

> I think the patent, which is non-renewable, and the code implementing the
> patent are two separate things.  The first they lose rights over, but the
> second is covered by a work-for-hire agreement since it could be used
> internally, or even sold as a product by the corporation without patent.
> But I could be wrong.
>
> Ron Newman, M.S., M.M.E.
> Founder, IdeaTreeLive.com  Knowledge Modeling
> www.RonPiano.com
> Blog 
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 4:06 PM Tom Johnson  wrote:
>
>> Would not the corporation have to renew the patent at some point?
>> Tom
>>
>> 
>> Tom Johnson - t...@jtjohnson.com
>> Institute for Analytic Journalism   -- Santa Fe, NM USA
>> 505.577.6482(c)505.473.9646(h)
>> *NM Foundation for Open Government* 
>> *Check out It's The People's Data
>> *
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 3:55 PM Ron Newman  wrote:
>>
>>> I was awarded a software patent 30 years ago while at a corporate job.
>>> That patent has since expired, of course.  I assume I signed a
>>> work-for-hire agreement the first day on that job.
>>>
>>> Now that it's expired, I also assume the corporation still owns the
>>> code, and so I'm not free to open source it.  Correct?
>>>
>>> Any IP attorneys here?
>>>
>>> Ron Newman, M.S., M.M.E.
>>> Founder, IdeaTreeLive.com  Knowledge
>>> Modeling
>>> www.RonPiano.com
>>> Blog 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>>
>

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Re: [FRIAM] Ownership of expired patent

2019-07-02 Thread Ron Newman

I think the patent, which is non-renewable, and the code implementing the
patent are two separate things.  The first they lose rights over, but the
second is covered by a work-for-hire agreement since it could be used
internally, or even sold as a product by the corporation without patent.
But I could be wrong.

Ron Newman, M.S., M.M.E.
Founder, IdeaTreeLive.com  Knowledge Modeling
www.RonPiano.com
Blog 

On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 4:06 PM Tom Johnson  wrote:

> Would not the corporation have to renew the patent at some point?
> Tom
>
> 
> Tom Johnson - t...@jtjohnson.com
> Institute for Analytic Journalism   -- Santa Fe, NM USA
> 505.577.6482(c)505.473.9646(h)
> *NM Foundation for Open Government* 
> *Check out It's The People's Data
> *
>
> 
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 3:55 PM Ron Newman  wrote:
>
>> I was awarded a software patent 30 years ago while at a corporate job.
>> That patent has since expired, of course.  I assume I signed a
>> work-for-hire agreement the first day on that job.
>>
>> Now that it's expired, I also assume the corporation still owns the code,
>> and so I'm not free to open source it.  Correct?
>>
>> Any IP attorneys here?
>>
>> Ron Newman, M.S., M.M.E.
>> Founder, IdeaTreeLive.com  Knowledge
>> Modeling
>> www.RonPiano.com
>> Blog 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

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Re: [FRIAM] Ownership of expired patent

2019-07-02 Thread Tom Johnson

Would not the corporation have to renew the patent at some point?
Tom


Tom Johnson - t...@jtjohnson.com
Institute for Analytic Journalism   -- Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c)505.473.9646(h)
*NM Foundation for Open Government* 
*Check out It's The People's Data
*




On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 3:55 PM Ron Newman  wrote:

> I was awarded a software patent 30 years ago while at a corporate job.
> That patent has since expired, of course.  I assume I signed a
> work-for-hire agreement the first day on that job.
>
> Now that it's expired, I also assume the corporation still owns the code,
> and so I'm not free to open source it.  Correct?
>
> Any IP attorneys here?
>
> Ron Newman, M.S., M.M.E.
> Founder, IdeaTreeLive.com  Knowledge Modeling
> www.RonPiano.com
> Blog 
>
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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[FRIAM] Ownership of expired patent

2019-07-02 Thread Ron Newman

I was awarded a software patent 30 years ago while at a corporate job.
That patent has since expired, of course.  I assume I signed a
work-for-hire agreement the first day on that job.

Now that it's expired, I also assume the corporation still owns the code,
and so I'm not free to open source it.  Correct?

Any IP attorneys here?

Ron Newman, M.S., M.M.E.
Founder, IdeaTreeLive.com  Knowledge Modeling
www.RonPiano.com
Blog 

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Re: [FRIAM] Ownership of expired patent

Re: [FRIAM] Ownership of expired patent

Re: [FRIAM] Ownership of expired patent

Re: [FRIAM] Ownership of expired patent

[FRIAM] Ownership of expired patent

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