Re: [FRIAM] Small Nuclear

[Russell Standish]

On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 11:06:23AM -0600, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
>  
> 
> The earlier answer on the entropy of renewables answered the question;
> especially when allied with a simple calculation on energy density for solar
> and wind. I strongly recommend https://www.withouthotair.com/ by either buying
> the book or it is available to download for free. The author sadly died in his
> prime but his most important legacy has global implications and is factual. It
> proves that the energy balance cannot be met with natural, non-depleting
> sources. Please be careful with what you read, many exponents of renewables
> equate electricity with energy. In advanced countries electricity is only 
> about
> 20% of the primary energy supply. Heat and transport dominate by far 
> worldwide.
>

Whilst I'm not antinuclear, it is my understanding that solar energy
potential is many orders of magnitude greater than current
consumption. IIUC, we could comfortably fit a photovoltaic array
within our state to supply all the world's needs for the foreseeable
future. We just need to solve storage issues, and electrification of
transport and so on, as well as finding somewhere else to live, or
course. In reality, such a solar array is more likely to be
constructed in the Gobi desert, than in NSW, however :).


-- 


Dr Russell StandishPhone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
  http://www.hpcoders.com.au


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Re: [FRIAM] Small Nuclear

[thompnickson2]

Thanks, Merle, 

 

Lemme know what you think! 

 

I also expected some reaction from Kim, either positive because it is against 
power transmission, or negative because it’s local, or both.

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

 <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> thompnicks...@gmail.com

 <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> 
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Merle Lefkoff
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2020 12:17 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Small Nuclear

 

You can outsource your thinking any time to me off-line, Nick.  I am very 
interested in what you just sent, and it applies to the work we are presently 
doing at our Center.

 

On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 9:07 AM mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Hi, Anybody, 

 

I stumbled on this letter in research gate, which seemed to suggest that we are 
on the edge of a bustling “small nuclear” economy.  The idea seems to be that 
we retrofit all our power plants with lowish temperature reactors  and there’s 
your carbon problem solved, bang!  I gather that these reactors also produce 
hydrogen which could then be used as a fuel for vehicles?  Did I read that 
right?

 

The earlier answer on the entropy of renewables answered the question; 
especially when allied with a simple calculation on energy density for solar 
and wind. I strongly recommend https://www.withouthotair.com/ 
<https://www.researchgate.net/deref/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.withouthotair.com%2F>  by 
either buying the book or it is available to download for free. The author 
sadly died in his prime but his most important legacy has global implications 
and is factual. It proves that the energy balance cannot be met with natural, 
non-depleting sources. Please be careful with what you read, many exponents of 
renewables equate electricity with energy. In advanced countries electricity is 
only about 20% of the primary energy supply. Heat and transport dominate by far 
worldwide.

 

As for nuclear, the IVth Generation of high temperature fission reactors is the 
near term future. Light water moderated reactors have been deployed almost 
universally in all countries except India, UK and Canada who have each chosen 
different routes. The reason for the light water reactor's dominance despite 
escalating safety costs is well documented in the military history of the last 
century. UK amongst some others developed and deployed the high temperature gas 
cooled 'dry' route which has many advantages as are now recognised.

The Generation IV small modular reactors are inherently safe (see Ref Kletz, 
Trevor for a definition) as has been physically demonstrated in Japan and China 
on real plants. These countries have looked carefully and dispassionately at 
the options and developed devices which are inherently safe, factory 
reproducible, provide high enough temperatures for industrial and domestic 
heat, also high enough to produce thermo-chemical hydrogen for synthetic 
transport fuels and provide distributed energy sourcing since it is not 
feasible to transmit the total energy quantities demanded electrically in 
mature economies. Growing economies can move directly to distributed low-carbon 
nuclear elegantly avoiding electricity or gas or liquid fuel transmission 
infrastructure. 

 

The most advanced demonstration plant in the world is the HTR-PM, presently in 
commissioning at 2 x 100 MWe in China following the proving of its smaller 
prototype and serious worldwide development effort over decades. The worldwide 
body of knowledge on high temperature small nuclear is at a point where 
deployment at scale is practical before 2030. Most advanced countries have 
small modular reactor programmes with designs at advanced stages. The high 
temperature small modular reactor preparations in China, Japan, USA, UK, France 
and many others produce heat at a temperature matched to repower large coal 
stations carbon-free by re-using all except the boilers. Deployment studies for 
such repowering have been completed in China and USA. You will appreciate the 
massive impact this will have upon global emissions.

 

The fuel is of course radioactive but is non-proliferating for weapons use 
because it is contained in ceramic which is harder to break down than newly 
mined materials so is unattractive and this also makes it safer to store as 
waste. Waste storage volumes are smaller than from light water reactors due to 
the higher utilisation of the fuel in the lower energy density core and the 
conversion efficiency of the downstream processes plus other helpful factors. 
These high temperature small modular reactors can operate on other fuels such 
as thorium but can also consume legacy 'hot' residues from pressurised water 
reactors and the military. 

In practical terms, it is physically impossible to bui

Re: [FRIAM] Small Nuclear

[Frank Wimberly]

My dad worked on advanced, highly safe, concepts for nuclear reactors at
Westinghouse Nuclear Energy Division.  I don't remember the details but he
said that there would be a severe international crisis by 2050 if the world
didn't aggressively pursue nuclear (fission) energy in some form.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Nov 10, 2020, 11:18 AM Merle Lefkoff  wrote:

> You can outsource your thinking any time to me off-line, Nick.  I am very
> interested in what you just sent, and it applies to the work we are
> presently doing at our Center.
>
> On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 9:07 AM  wrote:
>
>> Hi, Anybody,
>>
>>
>>
>> I stumbled on this letter in research gate, which seemed to suggest that
>> we are on the edge of a bustling “small nuclear” economy.  The idea seems
>> to be that we retrofit all our power plants with lowish temperature
>> reactors  and there’s your carbon problem solved, bang!  I gather that
>> these reactors also produce hydrogen which could then be used as a fuel for
>> vehicles?  Did I read that right?
>>
>>
>>
>> The earlier answer on the entropy of renewables answered the question;
>> especially when allied with a simple calculation on energy density for
>> solar and wind. I strongly recommend https://www.withouthotair.com/
>> 
>> by either buying the book or it is available to download for free. The
>> author sadly died in his prime but his most important legacy has global
>> implications and is factual. It proves that the energy balance cannot be
>> met with natural, non-depleting sources. Please be careful with what you
>> read, many exponents of renewables equate electricity with energy. In
>> advanced countries electricity is only about 20% of the primary energy
>> supply. Heat and transport dominate by far worldwide.
>>
>>
>>
>> As for nuclear, the IVth Generation of high temperature fission reactors
>> is the near term future. Light water moderated reactors have been deployed
>> almost universally in all countries except India, UK and Canada who have
>> each chosen different routes. The reason for the light water reactor's
>> dominance despite escalating safety costs is well documented in the
>> military history of the last century. UK amongst some others developed and
>> deployed the high temperature gas cooled 'dry' route which has many
>> advantages as are now recognised.
>>
>> The Generation IV small modular reactors are inherently safe (see Ref
>> Kletz, Trevor for a definition) as has been physically demonstrated in
>> Japan and China on real plants. These countries have looked carefully and
>> dispassionately at the options and developed devices which are inherently
>> safe, factory reproducible, provide high enough temperatures for industrial
>> and domestic heat, also high enough to produce thermo-chemical hydrogen for
>> synthetic transport fuels and provide distributed energy sourcing since it
>> is not feasible to transmit the total energy quantities demanded
>> electrically in mature economies. Growing economies can move directly to
>> distributed low-carbon nuclear elegantly avoiding electricity or gas or
>> liquid fuel transmission infrastructure.
>>
>>
>>
>> The most advanced demonstration plant in the world is the HTR-PM,
>> presently in commissioning at 2 x 100 MWe in China following the proving of
>> its smaller prototype and serious worldwide development effort over
>> decades. The worldwide body of knowledge on high temperature small nuclear
>> is at a point where deployment at scale is practical before 2030. Most
>> advanced countries have small modular reactor programmes with designs at
>> advanced stages. The high temperature small modular reactor preparations in
>> China, Japan, USA, UK, France and many others produce heat at a temperature
>> matched to repower large coal stations carbon-free by re-using all except
>> the boilers. Deployment studies for such repowering have been completed in
>> China and USA. You will appreciate the massive impact this will have upon
>> global emissions.
>>
>>
>>
>> The fuel is of course radioactive but is non-proliferating for weapons
>> use because it is contained in ceramic which is harder to break down than
>> newly mined materials so is unattractive and this also makes it safer to
>> store as waste. Waste storage volumes are smaller than from light water
>> reactors due to the higher utilisation of the fuel in the lower energy
>> density core and the conversion efficiency of the downstream processes plus
>> other helpful factors. These high temperature small modular reactors can
>> operate on other fuels such as thorium but can also consume legacy 'hot'
>> residues from pressurised water reactors and the military.
>>
>> In practical terms, it is physically impossible to build traditional
>> large nuclear power stations at a rate relevant to the latest Paris
>> imperatives. The only

Re: [FRIAM] Small Nuclear

[Merle Lefkoff]

You can outsource your thinking any time to me off-line, Nick.  I am very
interested in what you just sent, and it applies to the work we are
presently doing at our Center.

On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 9:07 AM  wrote:

> Hi, Anybody,
>
>
>
> I stumbled on this letter in research gate, which seemed to suggest that
> we are on the edge of a bustling “small nuclear” economy.  The idea seems
> to be that we retrofit all our power plants with lowish temperature
> reactors  and there’s your carbon problem solved, bang!  I gather that
> these reactors also produce hydrogen which could then be used as a fuel for
> vehicles?  Did I read that right?
>
>
>
> The earlier answer on the entropy of renewables answered the question;
> especially when allied with a simple calculation on energy density for
> solar and wind. I strongly recommend https://www.withouthotair.com/
> 
> by either buying the book or it is available to download for free. The
> author sadly died in his prime but his most important legacy has global
> implications and is factual. It proves that the energy balance cannot be
> met with natural, non-depleting sources. Please be careful with what you
> read, many exponents of renewables equate electricity with energy. In
> advanced countries electricity is only about 20% of the primary energy
> supply. Heat and transport dominate by far worldwide.
>
>
>
> As for nuclear, the IVth Generation of high temperature fission reactors
> is the near term future. Light water moderated reactors have been deployed
> almost universally in all countries except India, UK and Canada who have
> each chosen different routes. The reason for the light water reactor's
> dominance despite escalating safety costs is well documented in the
> military history of the last century. UK amongst some others developed and
> deployed the high temperature gas cooled 'dry' route which has many
> advantages as are now recognised.
>
> The Generation IV small modular reactors are inherently safe (see Ref
> Kletz, Trevor for a definition) as has been physically demonstrated in
> Japan and China on real plants. These countries have looked carefully and
> dispassionately at the options and developed devices which are inherently
> safe, factory reproducible, provide high enough temperatures for industrial
> and domestic heat, also high enough to produce thermo-chemical hydrogen for
> synthetic transport fuels and provide distributed energy sourcing since it
> is not feasible to transmit the total energy quantities demanded
> electrically in mature economies. Growing economies can move directly to
> distributed low-carbon nuclear elegantly avoiding electricity or gas or
> liquid fuel transmission infrastructure.
>
>
>
> The most advanced demonstration plant in the world is the HTR-PM,
> presently in commissioning at 2 x 100 MWe in China following the proving of
> its smaller prototype and serious worldwide development effort over
> decades. The worldwide body of knowledge on high temperature small nuclear
> is at a point where deployment at scale is practical before 2030. Most
> advanced countries have small modular reactor programmes with designs at
> advanced stages. The high temperature small modular reactor preparations in
> China, Japan, USA, UK, France and many others produce heat at a temperature
> matched to repower large coal stations carbon-free by re-using all except
> the boilers. Deployment studies for such repowering have been completed in
> China and USA. You will appreciate the massive impact this will have upon
> global emissions.
>
>
>
> The fuel is of course radioactive but is non-proliferating for weapons use
> because it is contained in ceramic which is harder to break down than newly
> mined materials so is unattractive and this also makes it safer to store as
> waste. Waste storage volumes are smaller than from light water reactors due
> to the higher utilisation of the fuel in the lower energy density core and
> the conversion efficiency of the downstream processes plus other helpful
> factors. These high temperature small modular reactors can operate on other
> fuels such as thorium but can also consume legacy 'hot' residues from
> pressurised water reactors and the military.
>
> In practical terms, it is physically impossible to build traditional large
> nuclear power stations at a rate relevant to the latest Paris imperatives.
> The only way to achieve a high pace of transition, even without global
> energy growth, is by factory manufacture of small distributable energy
> plants on a numerical scale similar to other volume manufactures such as
> aircraft. The Boeing 737 now has delivered 10,000 units manufactured at
> licensed factories worldwide and is still growing. This aircraft has a
> similar investment profile to small modular reactors in factory set up and
> economies of repetition. Volume manufacturing techniques from other
> industries are e

[FRIAM] Small Nuclear

[thompnickson2]

Hi, Anybody, 

 

I stumbled on this letter in research gate, which seemed to suggest that we
are on the edge of a bustling "small nuclear" economy.  The idea seems to be
that we retrofit all our power plants with lowish temperature reactors  and
there's your carbon problem solved, bang!  I gather that these reactors also
produce hydrogen which could then be used as a fuel for vehicles?  Did I
read that right?

 

The earlier answer on the entropy of renewables answered the question;
especially when allied with a simple calculation on energy density for solar
and wind. I strongly recommend https://www.withouthotair.com/

by either buying the book or it is available to download for free. The
author sadly died in his prime but his most important legacy has global
implications and is factual. It proves that the energy balance cannot be met
with natural, non-depleting sources. Please be careful with what you read,
many exponents of renewables equate electricity with energy. In advanced
countries electricity is only about 20% of the primary energy supply. Heat
and transport dominate by far worldwide.

 

As for nuclear, the IVth Generation of high temperature fission reactors is
the near term future. Light water moderated reactors have been deployed
almost universally in all countries except India, UK and Canada who have
each chosen different routes. The reason for the light water reactor's
dominance despite escalating safety costs is well documented in the military
history of the last century. UK amongst some others developed and deployed
the high temperature gas cooled 'dry' route which has many advantages as are
now recognised.

The Generation IV small modular reactors are inherently safe (see Ref Kletz,
Trevor for a definition) as has been physically demonstrated in Japan and
China on real plants. These countries have looked carefully and
dispassionately at the options and developed devices which are inherently
safe, factory reproducible, provide high enough temperatures for industrial
and domestic heat, also high enough to produce thermo-chemical hydrogen for
synthetic transport fuels and provide distributed energy sourcing since it
is not feasible to transmit the total energy quantities demanded
electrically in mature economies. Growing economies can move directly to
distributed low-carbon nuclear elegantly avoiding electricity or gas or
liquid fuel transmission infrastructure. 

 

The most advanced demonstration plant in the world is the HTR-PM, presently
in commissioning at 2 x 100 MWe in China following the proving of its
smaller prototype and serious worldwide development effort over decades. The
worldwide body of knowledge on high temperature small nuclear is at a point
where deployment at scale is practical before 2030. Most advanced countries
have small modular reactor programmes with designs at advanced stages. The
high temperature small modular reactor preparations in China, Japan, USA,
UK, France and many others produce heat at a temperature matched to repower
large coal stations carbon-free by re-using all except the boilers.
Deployment studies for such repowering have been completed in China and USA.
You will appreciate the massive impact this will have upon global emissions.

 

The fuel is of course radioactive but is non-proliferating for weapons use
because it is contained in ceramic which is harder to break down than newly
mined materials so is unattractive and this also makes it safer to store as
waste. Waste storage volumes are smaller than from light water reactors due
to the higher utilisation of the fuel in the lower energy density core and
the conversion efficiency of the downstream processes plus other helpful
factors. These high temperature small modular reactors can operate on other
fuels such as thorium but can also consume legacy 'hot' residues from
pressurised water reactors and the military. 

In practical terms, it is physically impossible to build traditional large
nuclear power stations at a rate relevant to the latest Paris imperatives.
The only way to achieve a high pace of transition, even without global
energy growth, is by factory manufacture of small distributable energy
plants on a numerical scale similar to other volume manufactures such as
aircraft. The Boeing 737 now has delivered 10,000 units manufactured at
licensed factories worldwide and is still growing. This aircraft has a
similar investment profile to small modular reactors in factory set up and
economies of repetition. Volume manufacturing techniques from other
industries are especially relevant to small modular nuclear but have not yet
been widely applied in nuclear.

 

As has been said by others in this post, the energy subject is large but
that should not prevent thinking fundamentally about the underlying
thermodynamic realities as MacKay has done, applying the immutable laws of
physics in this debate as few have done and une