Re: [FRIAM] Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The Principle of Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube

[Roger Critchlow]

Geometric and physical interpretation of the action principle

An open access article from Nature.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-39145-y

-- rec --

On Mon, Jul 10, 2023 at 12:01 PM Barry MacKichan <
barry.mackic...@mackichan.com> wrote:

> This is late since another ISP cut my fiber connection a week ago. Living
> with only cell service plus $15 per gigabyte is not pleasant.
>
> Some comments.
>
>1. I believe that the fact that photons travel on geodesics (least
>distance betwee2 points on a surface (manifold)) gives a fingerhold on
>trying to grasp least action.
>2. I read the wikipedia artice, and it hints that the application to
>electromagnetism and quantum physics requires some tweaks, so it is not as
>straightforward as the video implied.
>3. Granted that Newton’s laws are simpler, my understanding is that
>problems involving constraints are easier to set up than integrating the
>constraints into the setup of the equations.
>
> Just sayin’
>
> —Barry
>
> On 3 Jul 2023, at 2:51, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
>
> Hi Nick,
>
> Exercise caution when attempting to grasp the principle of least action,
> particularly if you desire an intuitive comprehension of it.
>
> It is essential to recognize the significance of the principle of least
> action, as it applies to various areas of physics and could potentially
> hold a closer answer to the "why" question than Newtonian physics
> regarding
> the laws of motion.
>
> However, based on our current knowledge, the best explanation for why the
> principle of least action holds true is that it aligns with the
> observations and experiments conducted in the real world. Although a
> breakthrough might be on the horizon, a consensus has not yet been reached
> regarding the "why" question.
>
> Therefore, at present, the following points can be made:
> a) When applied to the laws of motion, the principle of least action and
> Newton's laws of motion are equivalent.
> b) The reason for their acceptance lies in their agreement with empirical
> evidence and experimental results.
> c) The principle of least action carries more depth as it applies across
> several other fields of physics, such as electromagnetism and quantum
> physics.
> d) The fundamental formulation of the principle of least action is also
> simpler than that of Newtonian physics.
>
> However, if you are aiming to develop an intuitive understanding of the
> motion of objects in the real world, it is advisable to adhere to
> Newtonian
> physics. The principle of least action lacks inherent intuitiveness. Let
> me
> rephrase that: I have personally constructed an intuitive understanding
> that I find useful, but I cannot present it as the definitive answer.
> Perhaps someone else has a compelling intuitive explanation? I am open to
> hearing different perspectives.
>
> Moreover, for practical mechanical engineering calculations involving
> forces and motion in the real world, Newtonian physics surpasses the
> principle of least action.
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The Principle of Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube

[Barry MacKichan]

This is late since another ISP cut my fiber connection a week ago. 
Living with only cell service plus $15 per gigabyte is not pleasant.


Some comments.
1. I believe that the fact that photons travel on geodesics (least 
distance betwee2 points on a surface (manifold)) gives a fingerhold on 
trying to grasp least action.
2. I read the wikipedia artice, and it hints that the application to 
electromagnetism and quantum physics requires some tweaks, so it is not 
as straightforward as the video implied.
3. Granted that Newton’s laws are simpler, my understanding is that 
problems involving constraints are easier to set up than integrating the 
constraints into the setup of the equations.


Just sayin’

—Barry

On 3 Jul 2023, at 2:51, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:


Hi Nick,

Exercise caution when attempting to grasp the principle of least 
action,

particularly if you desire an intuitive comprehension of it.

It is essential to recognize the significance of the principle of 
least
action, as it applies to various areas of physics and could 
potentially
hold a closer answer to the "why" question than Newtonian physics 
regarding

the laws of motion.

However, based on our current knowledge, the best explanation for why 
the

principle of least action holds true is that it aligns with the
observations and experiments conducted in the real world. Although a
breakthrough might be on the horizon, a consensus has not yet been 
reached

regarding the "why" question.

Therefore, at present, the following points can be made:
a) When applied to the laws of motion, the principle of least action 
and

Newton's laws of motion are equivalent.
b) The reason for their acceptance lies in their agreement with 
empirical

evidence and experimental results.
c) The principle of least action carries more depth as it applies 
across

several other fields of physics, such as electromagnetism and quantum
physics.
d) The fundamental formulation of the principle of least action is 
also

simpler than that of Newtonian physics.

However, if you are aiming to develop an intuitive understanding of 
the
motion of objects in the real world, it is advisable to adhere to 
Newtonian
physics. The principle of least action lacks inherent intuitiveness. 
Let me
rephrase that: I have personally constructed an intuitive 
understanding

that I find useful, but I cannot present it as the definitive answer.
Perhaps someone else has a compelling intuitive explanation? I am open 
to

hearing different perspectives.

Moreover, for practical mechanical engineering calculations involving
forces and motion in the real world, Newtonian physics surpasses the
principle of least action.


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Re: [FRIAM] Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The Principle of Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube

[Roger Critchlow]

For more on the wondrous Emmy Noether, listen to
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00025bw and find out how she solved
Einstein's problem with the conservation of energy while he was formulating
general relativity.

-- rec --
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Re: [FRIAM] Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The Principle of Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube

[David Eric Smith]

Couple of small PSAs:

> On Jul 4, 2023, at 12:28 AM, Nicholas Thompson  
> wrote:
> 
> And why do we keep calling it by it/s cult name, rather than calling it what 
> it is?  The difference between the energy of a moving object conveyed by its 
> velocity and that conveyed by its position in a field. If you want jargon,  
> why not just call it Ev-Ep.  

It is a subset of cases in mechanics where the Lagrangian equals a kinetic 
energy minus a potential energy.  It is a subset of those cases in which the 
kinetic energy is some quadratic function of velocities and some parameters.  
It is a subset of cases where Lagrangians and Actions even describe the 
variables in mechanics.  The concept of Lagrangian is not defined by any one or 
another of these instances, and the concept of action (in the subset of cases 
where it is a time-integral in a single time variable of a Lagrangian) is not 
defined by any particular one of the indefinitely-variable functional forms 
that the action might evaluate to.(When read aloud in my voice, one should 
hear a tedious echo of harping that the concept of entropy is not defined by 
the functional form of an equilibrium entropy for one or another Gibbs 
ensemble.)

If we wish to talk about the consequence of books for the course of the 
enlightenment, why do we use that cult name “book”, and not just pick up a copy 
of Moby Dick and say “the things in which the word whale appears here and here 
and here”?


Now that Glen informs us that Sutter did mention calculus of variations, it is 
okay for me to just say the following and not go off on a long tangent: If I 
tell you that the daisy-chain recursion (aka the calculus of variations) that 
identifies the trajectory minimizing an action — because its (let’s say) 
potential term is a function of position and its (let’s say) kinetic term is a 
function of the rates of change of positions, so trying to reduce a function of 
them both chains together positions across time, and this is what “equations of 
motion” are — implies that the energy is conserved (unless blah blah blah, or 
else this sentence never ends), and that that is what the minus sign is buying 
you, don’t you feel infinitely better now that I have used the terms “energy” 
and “conserved"?  Doesn’t your intuition feel infinitely more empowered, ready 
to go out into the world and know what’s what?

I hope not.  Aristotle thought about motion and we know because he wrote things 
down.  Probably people before him thought about motion and didn’t write things 
down.  Surely people after him thought about motion, he having made that okay 
to do.  We waited until Newton before anybody had quantities showing that a 
concept “energy” was coherent and consequential.  We had to wait another 
century-and-a-bit until Emmy Noether (using ideas from Lagrange) related energy 
conservation to invariance under the passage of time, so that the idea started 
to be anchored in some bigger context, and wasn’t just a placeholder term 
floating in a void.  (This wasn’t what Leibniz meant by “windowless monad”, but 
I wish it had been; I would love to use that appellation for the placeholder 
status of all our terms not yet embedded in any wider contexts. (Integrated, 
one might say.))

I don’t say the above to mock the request for something intuitive about what 
least action is doing in one or another of its functional forms.  If I thought 
I had something useful to say that fulfills the request as stated I would write 
it here.  (The above observation about “why the minus sign” and conservation of 
energy is a bit in that direction, though it requires you to grind out the 
equations to watch it work, and in any case all this is more cleanly done by 
converting the Least Action formulation into its Hamiltonian equivalent and 
then showing how we have non-overlapping trajectories in a certain kind of 
picture of the space of possible conditions.)   It is not at all a bad request 
to make, and to extrapolate up from instances is a practice without which I 
could never get to an understanding of anything.  But I think this notion that 
one’s “intuition” is now empowered should be handled about like a pet 
rattlesnake.  Or Eve’s apple.  In it lies every temptation to conflate 
understanding with familiarity and the offloading onto habit, and if you go 
that route you may as well try to climb out of a black hole.


Just while we’re at it:

> my long-time mentor, Stephen Guerin.  He has learned to be very careful 
> around me, but I can tell that in his own private modeling -- the kind I urge 
> you to tell me about above -- he believes that the lightening bolt internally 
> models all the possible routes to ground and then chooses the least action 
> path. 

Stephen is a generous friend indeed, to let you throw up strawman caricatures 
of such malice for his thinking, just for the joy he knows it gives you to 
throw sand into the gears of any conversation.  A man like that can make a go

Re: [FRIAM] Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The Principle of Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube

[glen]

Well, sure. But another piece of [mal|mis|dis]information in Sutter's video was "I 
can use a little trick called the Calculus of Variations ..." blahblahblah. I chose 
to focus on integration, in general, mostly because of Stephen's response, but also 
because it's less on point toward the ultimate metaphor Nick seems to want. I'm sure the 
results of applying the mystical Calculus of Variations to typical physically relevant 
functions can also be tabulated (especially in these near-lookup-table-like ANNs that 
have the media in such an uproar these days). But my guess is that sophomores aren't 
doing the up-looking. 8^D

It would be reasonable to simply think "integration" means "to sum up". And, if that were the case, then 
Nick's focus on the minus sign in "Ev-Ep" and "positive and negative vectors" would make reasonable sense. 
But even a brief trip down the rabbit hole that is "integration" would argue that it really means something more akin 
to the standard English definition:

e.g. MW -
1: to form, coordinate, or blend into a functioning or unified whole : unite
2a: to incorporate into a larger unit
2b: to unite with something else
3a: desegregate
3b: to end the segregation of and bring into equal membership in society or an 
organization

Physically, it doesn't matter whether the pieces are aperiodic tiles or regular building 
blocks. Mathematically, it does. But physically, it doesn't ... or it 
"shouldn't", up to some tolerance for aggressive metaphor.

On 7/3/23 09:06, Frank Wimberly wrote:

As a senior at Berkeley I took a course in integration.  It was all about 
Lebesgue measure and integration, Fubini's theorem etc.  We didn't calculate 
the integral of any function arising from physics.  That's for sophomores and 
they can look the integrals up in tables.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Mon, Jul 3, 2023, 9:32 AM glen mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:

What do you think "integrate" means?

On 7/3/23 08:28, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
 > BEGIN HARRUMPH!
 >
 > Just so's you know, I did write:
 >
 > *" And for some reason, the path taken by the object through space will 
integrate this difference across the distance between any two points "*
 > *
 > *
 > But never doubt the capacity of some group of experts, when challenged 
to make sense of themselves, to congeal around some picky point of language.  And 
yes, this is me, saying that.(};-)]
 >
 > And why do we keep calling it by it/s cult name, rather than calling it 
what it is?  The difference between the energy of a moving object conveyed by its 
velocity and that conveyed by its position in a field. If you want jargon,  why 
not just call it Ev-Ep.
 >
 > And yet, nobody tackles the basic question.  Why on earth would E in the 
v-Ep be something that every moving object in the universe tries to accomplish.
 >
 > END HARRUMPH!
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 2:17 AM Stephen Guerin mailto:stephen.gue...@simtable.com> >> wrote:
 >
 >     The Action is the integral of the Lagrangian along the whole path, 
not just a single instant.
 >
 >     On Sun, Jul 2, 2023, 9:12 PM Nicholas Thompson mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> >> wrote:
 >
 >         So the difference is at a positive max when the ball hits the 
ground and at a negative maximum when the ball reaches its highest altitude?  So 
how am I to understand positive and negative?    vectors?
 >
 >         Instantaneious Action is at a minimum when the two terms are 
equal?
 >
 >         I have no intuitive sense of what is going on here.
 >
 >         But thanks for trying, Frank.
 >
 >         N
 >
 >
 >
 >         N
 >
 >         On Sun, Jul 2, 2023 at 12:27 PM Nicholas Thompson mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> >> wrote:
 >
 >             Frank,
 >
 >             Thanks SO  MUCH for forwarding this to me.  To any other 
defrocked english majors on Friam, who have listened to these guys blather on 
about LaGrangians for all these years,  I highly, HIGHLY recommend the video. 
Pretty short, AND, you might possibly, conceivably understand Steve Guerin when 
you  get to the end.   Yeah.  Really.
 >
 >             Nick
 >
 >             -- Forwarded message -
 >             From: *Frank Wimberly* mailto:wimber...@gmail.com> 
>>
 >             Date: Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 2:53 PM
 >             Subject: Fwd: Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The 
Principle of Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube
 >             

Re: [FRIAM] Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The Principle of Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube

[Pieter Steenekamp]

Nick,

Two points, first an answer to your request to share my intuition, then
maybe a possible source for you to learn more:

My understanding of the concept of least action in physics is that it
involves the principle that objects in the universe exhibit a tendency to
minimize the transfer of energies between kinetic and potential energies as
they move through space. In other words, objects are "lazy" in the sense
that they prefer paths that require the least amount of energy exchange.
To elaborate on this intuition, consider a body in motion with both kinetic
and potential energies. The total sum of these energies remains constant
because energy cannot be created or destroyed. However, as the body moves
through space, there can be a transfer of energy between the kinetic and
potential forms. In line with the idea that objects in the universe tend to
be lazy, the transfer of energies between kinetic and potential forms is
minimized during the body's movement.
>From this perspective, the concept of least action can be understood as
minimizing the sum of the differences between kinetic and potential
energies along the path taken by the body. By minimizing this quantity, we
capture the "laziness" or preference of objects to follow paths that
require minimal energy exchange as they move from one point to another in
space.

Now, the second point, there is a nice book on the bare minimum you need to
understand to start doing physics, written for people without a math or
physics background wanting to really understand physics. It is "The
Theoretical Minimum. What You Need to Know to Start Doing Physics". By
Leonord Susskind and George Hrabovsky. (Available from Amazon at
https://www.amazon.com/Theoretical-Minimum-Start-Doing-Physics/dp/0465075681
)
You can just watch the video lectures at
https://theoreticalminimum.com/courses/classical-mechanics/2011/fall
Specifically the concept of least action is covered in lecture three of the
series at
https://theoreticalminimum.com/courses/classical-mechanics/2011/fall/lecture-3




On Mon, 3 Jul 2023 at 17:01, Nicholas Thompson 
wrote:

> Thank you Peter for that helpful answer.
>
> You seem to endorse what I am calling "Roberts's Maxim": "*He who would
> try to understand fluid dynamics will never understand fluid dynamics*."
> Still, I would like to know what your intuitive answer is, even though it
> will probably be beyond me.
>
> My fascination with this stuff dates from my childhood and arises from the
> hurricanes, blizzards, and tornado that afflicted Massachusetts in late
> 40's and early 50's..  Thus, I have been a meteorologist for far longer
> than I have been a psychologist.  I think there is an odd similarity
> between  two domains:  each has an old theory with an old language that
> everbody falls back on, but basically both fields consist of empirical odds
> and ends, rules of thumb, and dramatic tales barely held together by the
> fact that whatever else can be said about them, the public has a strong
> interest and opinions . I have been working on a short essay for 20 years
> whose working title is, "Shall we name a storm?"
>
> A subfascination within this general area concerns the manner in which
> physicists use psychological language  which they instantaneously disclaim
> as "metaphorical".  Now to me, a  rapt Darwinian, metaphors are everywhere
> in science.  Models,  we call them. Thus, this disclaimer seems profoundly
> dishonest.  I owe my interest in least action to my long-time mentor,
> Stephen Guerin.  He has learned to be very careful around me, but I can
> tell that in his own private modeling -- the kind I urge you to tell me
> about above -- he believes that the lightening bolt internally models all
> the possible routes to ground and then *chooses the least action path.  *One
> of my favorite Friam members, Hywel White, a particle physicist, used to
> attribute motives to particles, and every time he did it, I would
> congratulate him on his insight that psychology is the mother science.  As
> a behaviorist, I'm perfectly willing to entertain panpsychism, but only if
> you are willing to own it, work out its implications, and test it.   One
> cannot use psychological terms as a bench language, and then disclaim that
> their functioning as models in yo one's thinking.  That's an intellectual
> foul.
>
> Thank you again for your honest and inspiring response.  Now, it has
> stopped raining and I must return to to the garden.
>
> Nick
>
> On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 2:50 AM Pieter Steenekamp <
> piet...@randcontrols.co.za> wrote:
>
>> Hi Nick,
>>
>> Exercise caution when attempting to grasp the principle of least action,
>> particularly if you desire an intuitive comprehension of it.
>>
>> It is essential to recognize the significance of the principle of least
>> action, as it applies to various areas of physics and could potentially
>> hold a closer answer to the "why" question than Newtonian physics regarding
>> the laws of motion.
>>
>> Howe

Re: [FRIAM] Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The Principle of Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube

[Frank Wimberly]

As a senior at Berkeley I took a course in integration.  It was all about
Lebesgue measure and integration, Fubini's theorem etc.  We didn't
calculate the integral of any function arising from physics.  That's for
sophomores and they can look the integrals up in tables.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Mon, Jul 3, 2023, 9:32 AM glen  wrote:

> What do you think "integrate" means?
>
> On 7/3/23 08:28, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
> > BEGIN HARRUMPH!
> >
> > Just so's you know, I did write:
> >
> > *" And for some reason, the path taken by the object through space will
> integrate this difference across the distance between any two points "*
> > *
> > *
> > But never doubt the capacity of some group of experts, when challenged
> to make sense of themselves, to congeal around some picky point of
> language.  And yes, this is me, saying that.(};-)]
> >
> > And why do we keep calling it by it/s cult name, rather than calling it
> what it is?  The difference between the energy of a moving object conveyed
> by its velocity and that conveyed by its position in a field. If you want
> jargon,  why not just call it Ev-Ep.
> >
> > And yet, nobody tackles the basic question.  Why on earth would E in the
> v-Ep be something that every moving object in the universe tries to
> accomplish.
> >
> > END HARRUMPH!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 2:17 AM Stephen Guerin <
> stephen.gue...@simtable.com > wrote:
> >
> > The Action is the integral of the Lagrangian along the whole path,
> not just a single instant.
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 2, 2023, 9:12 PM Nicholas Thompson <
> thompnicks...@gmail.com > wrote:
> >
> > So the difference is at a positive max when the ball hits the
> ground and at a negative maximum when the ball reaches its highest
> altitude?  So how am I to understand positive and negative?vectors?
> >
> > Instantaneious Action is at a minimum when the two terms are
> equal?
> >
> > I have no intuitive sense of what is going on here.
> >
> > But thanks for trying, Frank.
> >
> > N
> >
> >
> >
> > N
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 2, 2023 at 12:27 PM Nicholas Thompson <
> thompnicks...@gmail.com > wrote:
> >
> > Frank,
> >
> > Thanks SO  MUCH for forwarding this to me.  To any other
> defrocked english majors on Friam, who have listened to these guys blather
> on about LaGrangians for all these years,  I highly, HIGHLY recommend the
> video. Pretty short, AND, you might possibly, conceivably understand Steve
> Guerin when you  get to the end.   Yeah.  Really.
> >
> > Nick
> >
> > -- Forwarded message -
> > From: *Frank Wimberly*  wimber...@gmail.com>>
> > Date: Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 2:53 PM
> > Subject: Fwd: Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The
> Principle of Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube
> > To: Nicholas Thompson  thompnicks...@gmail.com>>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Frank C. Wimberly
> > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> > Santa Fe, NM 87505
> >
> > 505 670-9918
> > Santa Fe, NM
> >
> > -- Forwarded message -
> > From: *Frank Wimberly*  wimber...@gmail.com>>
> > Date: Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 12:51 PM
> > Subject: Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The
> Principle of Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube
> > To: Thompson, Nicholas  nickthomp...@earthlink.net>>, Barry MacKichan <
> barry.mackic...@mackichan.com >
> >
> >
> > https://youtu.be/UuqpCBZoX3M 
> >
>
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The Principle of Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube

[glen]

What do you think "integrate" means?

On 7/3/23 08:28, Nicholas Thompson wrote:

BEGIN HARRUMPH!

Just so's you know, I did write:

*" And for some reason, the path taken by the object through space will integrate 
this difference across the distance between any two points "*
*
*
But never doubt the capacity of some group of experts, when challenged to make 
sense of themselves, to congeal around some picky point of language.  And yes, 
this is me, saying that.(};-)]

And why do we keep calling it by it/s cult name, rather than calling it what it 
is?  The difference between the energy of a moving object conveyed by its 
velocity and that conveyed by its position in a field. If you want jargon,  why 
not just call it Ev-Ep.

And yet, nobody tackles the basic question.  Why on earth would E in the v-Ep 
be something that every moving object in the universe tries to accomplish.

END HARRUMPH!








On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 2:17 AM Stephen Guerin mailto:stephen.gue...@simtable.com>> wrote:

The Action is the integral of the Lagrangian along the whole path, not just 
a single instant.

On Sun, Jul 2, 2023, 9:12 PM Nicholas Thompson mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> wrote:

So the difference is at a positive max when the ball hits the ground 
and at a negative maximum when the ball reaches its highest altitude?  So how 
am I to understand positive and negative?    vectors?

Instantaneious Action is at a minimum when the two terms are equal?

I have no intuitive sense of what is going on here.

But thanks for trying, Frank.

N



N

On Sun, Jul 2, 2023 at 12:27 PM Nicholas Thompson mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Frank,

Thanks SO  MUCH for forwarding this to me.  To any other defrocked 
english majors on Friam, who have listened to these guys blather on about 
LaGrangians for all these years,  I highly, HIGHLY recommend the video. Pretty 
short, AND, you might possibly, conceivably understand Steve Guerin when you  
get to the end.   Yeah.  Really.

Nick

-- Forwarded message -
From: *Frank Wimberly* mailto:wimber...@gmail.com>>
Date: Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 2:53 PM
Subject: Fwd: Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The Principle 
of Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube
To: Nicholas Thompson mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>>




---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

-- Forwarded message -
From: *Frank Wimberly* mailto:wimber...@gmail.com>>
Date: Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 12:51 PM
Subject: Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The Principle of 
Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube
To: Thompson, Nicholas mailto:nickthomp...@earthlink.net>>, Barry MacKichan mailto:barry.mackic...@mackichan.com>>


https://youtu.be/UuqpCBZoX3M 



--
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
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https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
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Re: [FRIAM] Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The Principle of Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube

[Nicholas Thompson]

BEGIN HARRUMPH!

Just so's you know, I did write:

*" And for some reason, the path taken by the object through space will
integrate this difference across the distance between any two points "*

But never doubt the capacity of some group of experts, when challenged to
make sense of themselves, to congeal around some picky point of language.
And yes, this is me, saying that.(};-)]

And why do we keep calling it by it/s cult name, rather than calling it
what it is?  The difference between the energy of a moving object conveyed
by its velocity and that conveyed by its position in a field. If you want
jargon,  why not just call it Ev-Ep.

And yet, nobody tackles the basic question.  Why on earth would E in the
v-Ep be something that every moving object in the universe tries to
accomplish.

END HARRUMPH!








On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 2:17 AM Stephen Guerin 
wrote:

> The Action is the integral of the Lagrangian along the whole path, not
> just a single instant.
>
> On Sun, Jul 2, 2023, 9:12 PM Nicholas Thompson 
> wrote:
>
>> So the difference is at a positive max when the ball hits the ground and
>> at a negative maximum when the ball reaches its highest altitude?  So how
>> am I to understand positive and negative?vectors?
>>
>> Instantaneious Action is at a minimum when the two terms are equal?
>>
>> I have no intuitive sense of what is going on here.
>>
>> But thanks for trying, Frank.
>>
>> N
>>
>>
>>
>> N
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 2, 2023 at 12:27 PM Nicholas Thompson <
>> thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Frank,
>>>
>>> Thanks SO  MUCH for forwarding this to me.  To any other defrocked
>>> english majors on Friam, who have listened to these guys blather on about
>>> LaGrangians for all these years,  I highly, HIGHLY recommend the video.
>>> Pretty short, AND, you might possibly, conceivably understand Steve Guerin
>>> when you  get to the end.   Yeah.  Really.
>>>
>>> Nick
>>>
>>> -- Forwarded message -
>>> From: Frank Wimberly 
>>> Date: Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 2:53 PM
>>> Subject: Fwd: Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The Principle
>>> of Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube
>>> To: Nicholas Thompson 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Frank C. Wimberly
>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>>
>>> 505 670-9918
>>> Santa Fe, NM
>>>
>>> -- Forwarded message -
>>> From: Frank Wimberly 
>>> Date: Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 12:51 PM
>>> Subject: Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The Principle of
>>> Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube
>>> To: Thompson, Nicholas , Barry MacKichan <
>>> barry.mackic...@mackichan.com>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://youtu.be/UuqpCBZoX3M
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Frank C. Wimberly
>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>>
>>> 505 670-9918
>>> Santa Fe, NM
>>>
>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>
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Re: [FRIAM] Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The Principle of Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube

[Nicholas Thompson]

Diddle I say so?

On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 2:17 AM Stephen Guerin 
wrote:

> The Action is the integral of the Lagrangian along the whole path, not
> just a single instant.
>
> On Sun, Jul 2, 2023, 9:12 PM Nicholas Thompson 
> wrote:
>
>> So the difference is at a positive max when the ball hits the ground and
>> at a negative maximum when the ball reaches its highest altitude?  So how
>> am I to understand positive and negative?vectors?
>>
>> Instantaneious Action is at a minimum when the two terms are equal?
>>
>> I have no intuitive sense of what is going on here.
>>
>> But thanks for trying, Frank.
>>
>> N
>>
>>
>>
>> N
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 2, 2023 at 12:27 PM Nicholas Thompson <
>> thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Frank,
>>>
>>> Thanks SO  MUCH for forwarding this to me.  To any other defrocked
>>> english majors on Friam, who have listened to these guys blather on about
>>> LaGrangians for all these years,  I highly, HIGHLY recommend the video.
>>> Pretty short, AND, you might possibly, conceivably understand Steve Guerin
>>> when you  get to the end.   Yeah.  Really.
>>>
>>> Nick
>>>
>>> -- Forwarded message -
>>> From: Frank Wimberly 
>>> Date: Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 2:53 PM
>>> Subject: Fwd: Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The Principle
>>> of Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube
>>> To: Nicholas Thompson 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Frank C. Wimberly
>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>>
>>> 505 670-9918
>>> Santa Fe, NM
>>>
>>> -- Forwarded message -
>>> From: Frank Wimberly 
>>> Date: Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 12:51 PM
>>> Subject: Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The Principle of
>>> Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube
>>> To: Thompson, Nicholas , Barry MacKichan <
>>> barry.mackic...@mackichan.com>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://youtu.be/UuqpCBZoX3M
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Frank C. Wimberly
>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>>
>>> 505 670-9918
>>> Santa Fe, NM
>>>
>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
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>>
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Re: [FRIAM] Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The Principle of Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube

[Nicholas Thompson]

Thank you Peter for that helpful answer.

You seem to endorse what I am calling "Roberts's Maxim": "*He who would try
to understand fluid dynamics will never understand fluid dynamics*."
Still, I would like to know what your intuitive answer is, even though it
will probably be beyond me.

My fascination with this stuff dates from my childhood and arises from the
hurricanes, blizzards, and tornado that afflicted Massachusetts in late
40's and early 50's..  Thus, I have been a meteorologist for far longer
than I have been a psychologist.  I think there is an odd similarity
between  two domains:  each has an old theory with an old language that
everbody falls back on, but basically both fields consist of empirical odds
and ends, rules of thumb, and dramatic tales barely held together by the
fact that whatever else can be said about them, the public has a strong
interest and opinions . I have been working on a short essay for 20 years
whose working title is, "Shall we name a storm?"

A subfascination within this general area concerns the manner in which
physicists use psychological language  which they instantaneously disclaim
as "metaphorical".  Now to me, a  rapt Darwinian, metaphors are everywhere
in science.  Models,  we call them. Thus, this disclaimer seems profoundly
dishonest.  I owe my interest in least action to my long-time mentor,
Stephen Guerin.  He has learned to be very careful around me, but I can
tell that in his own private modeling -- the kind I urge you to tell me
about above -- he believes that the lightening bolt internally models all
the possible routes to ground and then *chooses the least action path.  *One
of my favorite Friam members, Hywel White, a particle physicist, used to
attribute motives to particles, and every time he did it, I would
congratulate him on his insight that psychology is the mother science.  As
a behaviorist, I'm perfectly willing to entertain panpsychism, but only if
you are willing to own it, work out its implications, and test it.   One
cannot use psychological terms as a bench language, and then disclaim that
their functioning as models in yo one's thinking.  That's an intellectual
foul.

Thank you again for your honest and inspiring response.  Now, it has
stopped raining and I must return to to the garden.

Nick

On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 2:50 AM Pieter Steenekamp 
wrote:

> Hi Nick,
>
> Exercise caution when attempting to grasp the principle of least action,
> particularly if you desire an intuitive comprehension of it.
>
> It is essential to recognize the significance of the principle of least
> action, as it applies to various areas of physics and could potentially
> hold a closer answer to the "why" question than Newtonian physics regarding
> the laws of motion.
>
> However, based on our current knowledge, the best explanation for why the
> principle of least action holds true is that it aligns with the
> observations and experiments conducted in the real world. Although a
> breakthrough might be on the horizon, a consensus has not yet been reached
> regarding the "why" question.
>
> Therefore, at present, the following points can be made:
> a) When applied to the laws of motion, the principle of least action and
> Newton's laws of motion are equivalent.
> b) The reason for their acceptance lies in their agreement with empirical
> evidence and experimental results.
> c) The principle of least action carries more depth as it applies across
> several other fields of physics, such as electromagnetism and quantum
> physics.
> d) The fundamental formulation of the principle of least action is also
> simpler than that of Newtonian physics.
>
> However, if you are aiming to develop an intuitive understanding of the
> motion of objects in the real world, it is advisable to adhere to Newtonian
> physics. The principle of least action lacks inherent intuitiveness. Let me
> rephrase that: I have personally constructed an intuitive understanding
> that I find useful, but I cannot present it as the definitive answer.
> Perhaps someone else has a compelling intuitive explanation? I am open to
> hearing different perspectives.
>
> Moreover, for practical mechanical engineering calculations involving
> forces and motion in the real world, Newtonian physics surpasses the
> principle of least action.
>
>
> On Mon, 3 Jul 2023 at 05:12, Nicholas Thompson 
> wrote:
>
>> So the difference is at a positive max when the ball hits the ground and
>> at a negative maximum when the ball reaches its highest altitude?  So how
>> am I to understand positive and negative?vectors?
>>
>> Instantaneious Action is at a minimum when the two terms are equal?
>>
>> I have no intuitive sense of what is going on here.
>>
>> But thanks for trying, Frank.
>>
>> N
>>
>>
>>
>> N
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 2, 2023 at 12:27 PM Nicholas Thompson <
>> thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Frank,
>>>
>>> Thanks SO  MUCH for forwarding this to me.  To any other defrocked
>>> english majors on Friam, who have li

Re: [FRIAM] Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The Principle of Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube

[Gary Schiltz]

“hairball heterarchy of metaphor“

Now there’s a Wikipedia article in need of writing.

On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 9:14 AM glen  wrote:

> Yeah, Sutter triggered me when he said "but you don't have to worry about
> that if you don't know what an integral is". I mean ... maybe? This stuff
> is like heroin to an addict, right? Models upon models upon models. And not
> just in a simple stack, but a hairball heterarchy of metaphor.
>
> You kinda do need to know what an integral is, right? I mean ... [sigh]
> ... I guess that's a rabbit hole, too. The only way you can understand what
> an integral *is* (not merely those pesky aspects like what a particular
> type of integration is *good for* ... noo, we don't need to know that,
> we're after the *essence* of integration) is to use it to do work. To
> understand integration, you must integrate some particular thing over some
> particular domain.
>
> That same principle ("What I can't create, I don't understand.") applies
> to Action ... and brewing ... and cleaning your carburetor. You will never
> understand carburetors until you *use* carburetors to do some particular
> thing ... like drive across the country in broken down jalopy.
>
> I feel like there's an analogy waiting to be made between
> [mal|mis|dis]information and the popularization of [physics|math|biology].
> Books like Thiel's "The Straussian Moment" seem similar to books like
> Kaku's "Quantum Supremacy". And the category they compose seems similar to
> arm-chair opining on:
>
> • foreign affairs like Prigozhin's mutiny,
> • epidemiology like the origins of SARS-CoV-2, and
> • deep sea physics and the Titan submersible.
>
> I've probably mentioned this before. But I learned a new word awhile back:
> ultracrepidarian cf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutor,_ne_ultra_crepidam.
> Yes, I'm as guilty as the next shoemaker. But sometimes it's good to simply
> stay in one's lane, at least until you've done some homework.
>
> Just to complete the arc of this rant, am I crazy for getting a distinct
> Cult Prophet vibe circa 13:39 in the video:
> https://youtu.be/UuqpCBZoX3M?t=819 ? When Sutter says, with cadence
> envied by every budding preacher in every small town church across the
> country: "The Least Action Principle is a generator of Physics. The Least
> Action Principle is a Creator of Physics. It is a Mother Principle that
> allows Physicists to generate Laws of Physics and Equations of Motion. It's
> . right . there. Folks you can write down a Lagrangian ..." I mean, that's
> some good ole down home fever-eyed preachin' right there. Reminds me of
> Keith Raniere of the NXIVM sex cult.
>
> Do you see it?!?! Do you?!? It's right there! The Secret <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_(Byrne_book)> to the universe.
>
> On 7/2/23 23:16, Stephen Guerin wrote:
> > The Action is the integral of the Lagrangian along the whole path, not
> just a single instant.
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 2, 2023, 9:12 PM Nicholas Thompson  > wrote:
> >
> > So the difference is at a positive max when the ball hits the ground
> and at a negative maximum when the ball reaches its highest altitude?  So
> how am I to understand positive and negative?vectors?
> >
> > Instantaneious Action is at a minimum when the two terms are equal?
> >
> > I have no intuitive sense of what is going on here.
> >
> > But thanks for trying, Frank.
> >
> > N
> >
> >
> >
> > N
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 2, 2023 at 12:27 PM Nicholas Thompson <
> thompnicks...@gmail.com > wrote:
> >
> > Frank,
> >
> > Thanks SO  MUCH for forwarding this to me.  To any other
> defrocked english majors on Friam, who have listened to these guys blather
> on about LaGrangians for all these years,  I highly, HIGHLY recommend the
> video. Pretty short, AND, you might possibly, conceivably understand Steve
> Guerin when you  get to the end.   Yeah.  Really.
> >
> > Nick
> >
> > -- Forwarded message -
> > From: *Frank Wimberly*  wimber...@gmail.com>>
> > Date: Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 2:53 PM
> > Subject: Fwd: Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The
> Principle of Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube
> > To: Nicholas Thompson  thompnicks...@gmail.com>>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Frank C. Wimberly
> > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> > Santa Fe, NM 87505
> >
> > 505 670-9918
> > Santa Fe, NM
> >
> > -- Forwarded message -
> > From: *Frank Wimberly*  wimber...@gmail.com>>
> > Date: Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 12:51 PM
> > Subject: Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The
> Principle of Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube
> > To: Thompson, Nicholas  nickthomp...@earthlink.net>>, Barry MacKichan <
> barry.mackic...@mackichan.com >
> >
> >
> > https://youtu.be/Uuq

Re: [FRIAM] Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The Principle of Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube

[glen]

Yeah, Sutter triggered me when he said "but you don't have to worry about that if 
you don't know what an integral is". I mean ... maybe? This stuff is like heroin to 
an addict, right? Models upon models upon models. And not just in a simple stack, but a 
hairball heterarchy of metaphor.

You kinda do need to know what an integral is, right? I mean ... [sigh] ... I 
guess that's a rabbit hole, too. The only way you can understand what an 
integral *is* (not merely those pesky aspects like what a particular type of 
integration is *good for* ... noo, we don't need to know that, we're after 
the *essence* of integration) is to use it to do work. To understand 
integration, you must integrate some particular thing over some particular 
domain.

That same principle ("What I can't create, I don't understand.") applies to 
Action ... and brewing ... and cleaning your carburetor. You will never understand 
carburetors until you *use* carburetors to do some particular thing ... like drive across 
the country in broken down jalopy.

I feel like there's an analogy waiting to be made between [mal|mis|dis]information and the 
popularization of [physics|math|biology]. Books like Thiel's "The Straussian Moment" seem 
similar to books like Kaku's "Quantum Supremacy". And the category they compose seems 
similar to arm-chair opining on:

• foreign affairs like Prigozhin's mutiny,
• epidemiology like the origins of SARS-CoV-2, and
• deep sea physics and the Titan submersible.

I've probably mentioned this before. But I learned a new word awhile back: 
ultracrepidarian cf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutor,_ne_ultra_crepidam. 
Yes, I'm as guilty as the next shoemaker. But sometimes it's good to simply 
stay in one's lane, at least until you've done some homework.

Just to complete the arc of this rant, am I crazy for getting a distinct Cult Prophet 
vibe circa 13:39 in the video: https://youtu.be/UuqpCBZoX3M?t=819 ? When Sutter says, 
with cadence envied by every budding preacher in every small town church across the 
country: "The Least Action Principle is a generator of Physics. The Least Action 
Principle is a Creator of Physics. It is a Mother Principle that allows Physicists to 
generate Laws of Physics and Equations of Motion. It's . right . there. Folks you can 
write down a Lagrangian ..." I mean, that's some good ole down home fever-eyed 
preachin' right there. Reminds me of Keith Raniere of the NXIVM sex cult.

Do you see it?!?! Do you?!? It's right there! The Secret 
 to the universe.

On 7/2/23 23:16, Stephen Guerin wrote:

The Action is the integral of the Lagrangian along the whole path, not just a 
single instant.

On Sun, Jul 2, 2023, 9:12 PM Nicholas Thompson mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> wrote:

So the difference is at a positive max when the ball hits the ground and at 
a negative maximum when the ball reaches its highest altitude?  So how am I to 
understand positive and negative?    vectors?

Instantaneious Action is at a minimum when the two terms are equal?

I have no intuitive sense of what is going on here.

But thanks for trying, Frank.

N



N

On Sun, Jul 2, 2023 at 12:27 PM Nicholas Thompson mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Frank,

Thanks SO  MUCH for forwarding this to me.  To any other defrocked 
english majors on Friam, who have listened to these guys blather on about 
LaGrangians for all these years,  I highly, HIGHLY recommend the video. Pretty 
short, AND, you might possibly, conceivably understand Steve Guerin when you  
get to the end.   Yeah.  Really.

Nick

-- Forwarded message -
From: *Frank Wimberly* mailto:wimber...@gmail.com>>
Date: Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 2:53 PM
Subject: Fwd: Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The Principle of 
Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube
To: Nicholas Thompson mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>>




---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

-- Forwarded message -
From: *Frank Wimberly* mailto:wimber...@gmail.com>>
Date: Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 12:51 PM
Subject: Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The Principle of Least 
Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube
To: Thompson, Nicholas mailto:nickthomp...@earthlink.net>>, Barry MacKichan mailto:barry.mackic...@mackichan.com>>


https://youtu.be/UuqpCBZoX3M 




--
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ

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Re: [FRIAM] Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The Principle of Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube

[Pieter Steenekamp]

Hi Nick,

Exercise caution when attempting to grasp the principle of least action,
particularly if you desire an intuitive comprehension of it.

It is essential to recognize the significance of the principle of least
action, as it applies to various areas of physics and could potentially
hold a closer answer to the "why" question than Newtonian physics regarding
the laws of motion.

However, based on our current knowledge, the best explanation for why the
principle of least action holds true is that it aligns with the
observations and experiments conducted in the real world. Although a
breakthrough might be on the horizon, a consensus has not yet been reached
regarding the "why" question.

Therefore, at present, the following points can be made:
a) When applied to the laws of motion, the principle of least action and
Newton's laws of motion are equivalent.
b) The reason for their acceptance lies in their agreement with empirical
evidence and experimental results.
c) The principle of least action carries more depth as it applies across
several other fields of physics, such as electromagnetism and quantum
physics.
d) The fundamental formulation of the principle of least action is also
simpler than that of Newtonian physics.

However, if you are aiming to develop an intuitive understanding of the
motion of objects in the real world, it is advisable to adhere to Newtonian
physics. The principle of least action lacks inherent intuitiveness. Let me
rephrase that: I have personally constructed an intuitive understanding
that I find useful, but I cannot present it as the definitive answer.
Perhaps someone else has a compelling intuitive explanation? I am open to
hearing different perspectives.

Moreover, for practical mechanical engineering calculations involving
forces and motion in the real world, Newtonian physics surpasses the
principle of least action.


On Mon, 3 Jul 2023 at 05:12, Nicholas Thompson 
wrote:

> So the difference is at a positive max when the ball hits the ground and
> at a negative maximum when the ball reaches its highest altitude?  So how
> am I to understand positive and negative?vectors?
>
> Instantaneious Action is at a minimum when the two terms are equal?
>
> I have no intuitive sense of what is going on here.
>
> But thanks for trying, Frank.
>
> N
>
>
>
> N
>
> On Sun, Jul 2, 2023 at 12:27 PM Nicholas Thompson 
> wrote:
>
>> Frank,
>>
>> Thanks SO  MUCH for forwarding this to me.  To any other defrocked
>> english majors on Friam, who have listened to these guys blather on about
>> LaGrangians for all these years,  I highly, HIGHLY recommend the video.
>> Pretty short, AND, you might possibly, conceivably understand Steve Guerin
>> when you  get to the end.   Yeah.  Really.
>>
>> Nick
>>
>> -- Forwarded message -
>> From: Frank Wimberly 
>> Date: Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 2:53 PM
>> Subject: Fwd: Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The Principle of
>> Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube
>> To: Nicholas Thompson 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>> -- Forwarded message -
>> From: Frank Wimberly 
>> Date: Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 12:51 PM
>> Subject: Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The Principle of
>> Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube
>> To: Thompson, Nicholas , Barry MacKichan <
>> barry.mackic...@mackichan.com>
>>
>>
>> https://youtu.be/UuqpCBZoX3M
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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Re: [FRIAM] Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The Principle of Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube

[Stephen Guerin]

The Action is the integral of the Lagrangian along the whole path, not just
a single instant.

On Sun, Jul 2, 2023, 9:12 PM Nicholas Thompson 
wrote:

> So the difference is at a positive max when the ball hits the ground and
> at a negative maximum when the ball reaches its highest altitude?  So how
> am I to understand positive and negative?vectors?
>
> Instantaneious Action is at a minimum when the two terms are equal?
>
> I have no intuitive sense of what is going on here.
>
> But thanks for trying, Frank.
>
> N
>
>
>
> N
>
> On Sun, Jul 2, 2023 at 12:27 PM Nicholas Thompson 
> wrote:
>
>> Frank,
>>
>> Thanks SO  MUCH for forwarding this to me.  To any other defrocked
>> english majors on Friam, who have listened to these guys blather on about
>> LaGrangians for all these years,  I highly, HIGHLY recommend the video.
>> Pretty short, AND, you might possibly, conceivably understand Steve Guerin
>> when you  get to the end.   Yeah.  Really.
>>
>> Nick
>>
>> -- Forwarded message -
>> From: Frank Wimberly 
>> Date: Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 2:53 PM
>> Subject: Fwd: Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The Principle of
>> Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube
>> To: Nicholas Thompson 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>> -- Forwarded message -
>> From: Frank Wimberly 
>> Date: Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 12:51 PM
>> Subject: Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The Principle of
>> Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube
>> To: Thompson, Nicholas , Barry MacKichan <
>> barry.mackic...@mackichan.com>
>>
>>
>> https://youtu.be/UuqpCBZoX3M
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
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> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:  5/2017 thru present
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>
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  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The Principle of Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube

[Nicholas Thompson]

So the difference is at a positive max when the ball hits the ground and at
a negative maximum when the ball reaches its highest altitude?  So how am I
to understand positive and negative?vectors?

Instantaneious Action is at a minimum when the two terms are equal?

I have no intuitive sense of what is going on here.

But thanks for trying, Frank.

N



N

On Sun, Jul 2, 2023 at 12:27 PM Nicholas Thompson 
wrote:

> Frank,
>
> Thanks SO  MUCH for forwarding this to me.  To any other defrocked english
> majors on Friam, who have listened to these guys blather on about
> LaGrangians for all these years,  I highly, HIGHLY recommend the video.
> Pretty short, AND, you might possibly, conceivably understand Steve Guerin
> when you  get to the end.   Yeah.  Really.
>
> Nick
>
> -- Forwarded message -
> From: Frank Wimberly 
> Date: Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 2:53 PM
> Subject: Fwd: Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The Principle of
> Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube
> To: Nicholas Thompson 
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> -- Forwarded message -
> From: Frank Wimberly 
> Date: Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 12:51 PM
> Subject: Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The Principle of Least
> Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube
> To: Thompson, Nicholas , Barry MacKichan <
> barry.mackic...@mackichan.com>
>
>
> https://youtu.be/UuqpCBZoX3M
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The Principle of Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube

[Nicholas Thompson]

Hi Frank and all,

Ok, so the Action of an object is the diffrence between its kinetic and its
potential energy. (Have I got the grammar right?)  Since mass appears in
both terms, the Action is the mass of the object times the difference
between half it's squared velocity and it's height off the surface.  So, a
mass can have two kinds of energy, that imputed to it because of its
motion, and that imputed to it because of its position [with respect to
other objects, specifically the earth, in this case]. And for some reason,
the path taken by the object through space will integrate this difference
accross the distance between any two points.  Ok,  do I have that right?
Or is this just another example of the dangers of  teaching defrocked
english majors a teensy bit of physics?

Now, we are still in the realm of classical physics.  So, there is still a
chance that non-mathematical intuitions might apply, right?  Does anyone on
the list have an intuition for why the difference between the energy of
motion and the energy of position should be what guides all motion in the
universe?

Nick





On Sun, Jul 2, 2023 at 12:27 PM Nicholas Thompson 
wrote:

> Frank,
>
> Thanks SO  MUCH for forwarding this to me.  To any other defrocked english
> majors on Friam, who have listened to these guys blather on about
> LaGrangians for all these years,  I highly, HIGHLY recommend the video.
> Pretty short, AND, you might possibly, conceivably understand Steve Guerin
> when you  get to the end.   Yeah.  Really.
>
> Nick
>
> -- Forwarded message -
> From: Frank Wimberly 
> Date: Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 2:53 PM
> Subject: Fwd: Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The Principle of
> Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube
> To: Nicholas Thompson 
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> -- Forwarded message -
> From: Frank Wimberly 
> Date: Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 12:51 PM
> Subject: Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The Principle of Least
> Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube
> To: Thompson, Nicholas , Barry MacKichan <
> barry.mackic...@mackichan.com>
>
>
> https://youtu.be/UuqpCBZoX3M
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/