Re: [FRIAM] GAS

[Steve Smith]

Eric -
It seems that the Term of Art "chaos", referring to tons of structure 
that is merely recalcitrant to description, is the odd man out.



What an eloquent way of putting it...


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] GAS

[Grant Holland]

It looks to me that there is currently deep confusion around the use of 
both words "chaos" and "disorder" in the field of dynamical systems. 
Sometimes the meaning "unpredictability" is evident in that usage. But 
at other time the meaning "disorganization" is. These two ideas are 
different and very often are in need of critical distinction.


An important usage of "disorganization" is the "disunion of constituent 
parts". It pertains to structure, arrangement or configuration. It is a 
phenomenon that can be observed statically, instantaneously, without the 
passage of time. It pertains to the interrelationships among parts. It 
also pertains to the relationship of the parts to the whole. It is 
well-modeled by geometry, topology and graph theory. Any notion of the 
"degree of organization or disorganization" would pertain to how rich 
the interrelationships among parts are. Defining a measure for this 
would be challenging, and none dominates.


On the other hand, "unpredictability" pertains to chance variation, 
probability and even epistemology. It is defined independently from any 
notion of parts/whole. It is well-modeled by probability theory and 
stochastic processes. Any notion of "degree of predictability or 
unpredictability" would be subject to some matter of probabilities. In 
information theory, it is measured by statistical entropy and its 
related entropic functionals (relative entropy, conditional entropy, 
mutual information, entropy rate, etc.) It is worth noting that the 
definition of statistical entropy has probabilities as its only 
parameters. Thus, it is capable of measuring degrees of predictability 
or unpredictability, but not degrees of organization or disorganization.


Of course, the two ideas can be combined. For example, one could be 
interested how a collection of constituent parts are arranged, 
configured or organized - and how that organization changes (subject to 
chance) over time. (Such as particles in an ideal gas.) We could even 
define some kind of stochastic dynamical system wherein (instantaneous) 
system state could be its current organization (defined as, say, a 
topology), and where the Markov chains (or more elaborate conditional 
processes) can provide the stochastic dynamics.


This confusion further shows up in the use of "chaos" in dynamical 
systems. One dictionary defines "chaos" as "where chance reins supreme". 
But in nonlinear dynamics, "chaos" means "sensitivity to initial 
conditions" and is strictly deterministic. (That is, chance is banished 
from "Chaos Theory").


Food for thought.

Grant

On 12/1/14, 3:57 AM, Eric Smith wrote:

Hi Nick and Arlo,

Yes. What got me about this was the fact that the idea of gas as a 
chaotic state of matter goes WAY back.


Here it seems the etymology goes the other way, though, right?  The 
notion of a "chaotic state of matter" is actually a new borrowing of a 
term, with about as much connection to the original as Murray's 
"color" in QCD has to the visual chromatic spectrum.


If original chaos meant mostly a void or gap (which seems to be what 
Wikipedia -- the authority on all matters -- says, then it is not a 
bad fit to most of our everyday experience of gases, and would work 
even better for the vacuum.


It seems that the Term of Art "chaos", referring to tons of structure 
that is merely recalcitrant to description, is the odd man out.


Although, perhaps the argument against my position is that when 
artists need to represent chaos, they paint a lot of structure that is 
meant to exist but to defy description.  Since I don't know how 
ancient Greeks actually handled these things, maybe, as you say, they 
wouldn't tolerate a notion of "not-there", so they would have 
conceived of gaps as having a substantive essence, but just beyond 
tractability by perception, in which case modern chaos would indeed be 
much older.


Thanks for those,

Eric




FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] GAS

[Eric Smith]

Hi Nick and Arlo,

> Yes.  What got me about this was the fact that the idea of gas as a chaotic 
> state of matter goes WAY back. 

Here it seems the etymology goes the other way, though, right?  The notion of a 
"chaotic state of matter" is actually a new borrowing of a term, with about as 
much connection to the original as Murray's "color" in QCD has to the visual 
chromatic spectrum.  

If original chaos meant mostly a void or gap (which seems to be what Wikipedia 
-- the authority on all matters -- says, then it is not a bad fit to most of 
our everyday experience of gases, and would work even better for the vacuum. 

It seems that the Term of Art "chaos", referring to tons of structure that is 
merely recalcitrant to description, is the odd man out.

Although, perhaps the argument against my position is that when artists need to 
represent chaos, they paint a lot of structure that is meant to exist but to 
defy description.  Since I don't know how ancient Greeks actually handled these 
things, maybe, as you say, they wouldn't tolerate a notion of "not-there", so 
they would have conceived of gaps as having a substantive essence, but just 
beyond tractability by perception, in which case modern chaos would indeed be 
much older.

Thanks for those,

Eric


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] GAS

[Nick Thompson]

Arlo, 

 

Yes.  What got me about this was the fact that the idea of gas as a chaotic 
state of matter goes WAY back.  I am reading the Norton History of Chemistry 
(despite knowing nothing about Chemistry) and the manner in which the same 
ideas appear, thrive, and then are beaten into oblivion only to reappear a few 
years later is astounding.  

 

I dunno.  I just think that kind of stuff is NEAT!

 

n

 

 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> 
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Arlo Barnes
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2014 8:45 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] GAS

 

For convenience:
Etymonline 
<http://etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=gas&searchmode=none> 
 says

1650s, from Dutch gas, probably from Greek khaos "empty space" (see chaos). The 
sound of Dutch "g" is roughly equivalent to that of Greek "kh." First used by 
Flemish chemist J.B. van Helmont (1577-1644), probably influenced by 
Paracelsus, who used khaos in an occult sense of "proper elements of spirits" 
or "ultra-rarified water," which was van Helmont's definition of gas.
Modern scientific sense began 1779, with later specialization to "combustible 
mix of vapors" (1794, originally coal gas); "anesthetic" (1894, originally 
nitrous oxide); and "poison gas" (1900). Meaning "intestinal vapors" is from 
1882. "The success of this artificial word is unique" [Weekley]. Slang sense of 
"empty talk" is from 1847; slang meaning "something exciting or excellent" 
first attested 1953, from earlier hepster slang gasser in the same sense 
(1944). Gas also meant "fun, a joke" in Anglo-Irish and was used so by Joyce 
(1914). As short for gasoline, it is American English, first recorded 1905.

-Arlo James Barnes 


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] GAS

[Arlo Barnes]

For convenience:
Etymonline

 says

> 1650s, from Dutch gas, probably from Greek khaos "empty space" (see
> chaos). The sound of Dutch "g" is roughly equivalent to that of Greek "kh."
> First used by Flemish chemist J.B. van Helmont (1577-1644), probably
> influenced by Paracelsus, who used khaos in an occult sense of "proper
> elements of spirits" or "ultra-rarified water," which was van Helmont's
> definition of gas.
> Modern scientific sense began 1779, with later specialization to
> "combustible mix of vapors" (1794, originally coal gas); "anesthetic"
> (1894, originally nitrous oxide); and "poison gas" (1900). Meaning
> "intestinal vapors" is from 1882. "The success of this artificial word is
> unique" [Weekley]. Slang sense of "empty talk" is from 1847; slang meaning
> "something exciting or excellent" first attested 1953, from earlier hepster
> slang gasser in the same sense (1944). Gas also meant "fun, a joke" in
> Anglo-Irish and was used so by Joyce (1914). As short for gasoline, it is
> American English, first recorded 1905.

-Arlo James Barnes

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com