Re: [FRIAM] fires and weather

[Gillian Densmore]

That's very enlightining.

On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 6:23 PM, Steve Smith  wrote:

>  Gil -
>
> This is an interesting and timely but potentially contentious topic.
> Interesting and timely because we ARE right in the midst of some big fires
> (recently)... I just drove through the Jemez to see some of the most recent
> fire's (Thompson Ridge) damage as well as from two years ago.  Of course,
> the recent loss of 19 firefighters in AZ was is not a small reminder of the
> danger of these fires.
>
>  My father worked for the US Forest Service from the 50's through the
> 80s,  and summer was a continuous series of either local fires being fought
> nearby or him making long trips off to the really big fires in the pacific
> northwest where he often lead crews from Zuni (they were well known for
> their skill, tirelessness and cohesiveness).  One of my earliest memories
> is of my mother driving us out to where they were trying to stop a fire
> from crossing the highway near the forest camp we lived in.  We and some
> other local residents watched (safely) from a few hundred yards back in a
> large meadow as flames licked from the ponderosas on one side of the
> highway  right of way toward the other side.   As I remember it, they did
> hold the fire there, but only barely.This was the first of nearly 20
> years of fire-stories I got to hear as they were unfolding.  We had a
> fire-radio in the kitchen which was on 24/7 and busy throughout the
> summer.
>
> My father died less than a year ago and while helping my mother sort
> through possessions I encountered an outline of the many harrowing
> experiences he had in the forest service, starting with the famous Mann
> Gulch fire in Montana  that took the lives of 13 fire fighters.   My Father
> had just been accepted to Forestry School in Missoula and was driving
> toward there from Kentucky when that fire happened.  He arrived as a fresh
> young Forestry Student in the aftermath of that very tragic and defining
> incident.   This story is well documented in the 1992 book "Young Men and
> Fire ".
>
> Another tragic fire incident happened in the mid 1990's on the Storm King
> or South Canyon fire.  One notable difference from the 1949 tragedy was
> that by this time firefighting crews included women... in this case I think
> 4 of the 14 killed were women.
>
> Not long after my father began work as a Forest Service Professional in
> Northern Arizona, one of his equally fresh colleagues, Billy Buck, was
> caught in a bad situation with a group of firefighters who he was able to
> save by using a technique similar to that of Wag Dodge of lighting a
> "escape fire" which clears the immediate area of combustibles in a
> lower-temperature fire, allowing firefighters to potentially survive in
> that Island of "pre-burned" area.   This was not long after the Mann-Gulch
> fire and it helped to validate that Dodge's actions (he was only 1 of 3
> survivors of the fire and the only one who chose to stay within the escape
> fire "island" while the others insisted on trying to outrun the fire to
> their peril).   They huddled together under a tarp they had wet from their
> canteens while the fire blew past/over them.  This technique was formalized
> in the mid 1970's when they started requiring every fire crew to carry a
> "fire shelter" which was essentially a tarp/tent with a reflective (think
> space blanket) coating.  Suffocation is often a bigger danger even than the
> heat of the fire.   Buck was credited with rescuing the entire crew with
> his forceful style (former marine)despite having no formal authority.   My
> dad believed it was the only difference between his success and Wag Dodge's
> failure (to save more than himself).
>
> May father was appalled at how much building happened in the Pacific
> Northwest and even moreso in California, deep in the forested and other
> potentially fire-prone areas.  In the relatively uninhabited southwest,
> even a huge fire would not be that likely to threaten habitation and when
> it did, efforts could be focused on the few, relatively small areas of
> habitation.  In California, they were *always* fighting to protect
> habitations, not to stop the fire.  As it turns out, the most good for the
> most people (well, the ecosystems we people are depending on) might have
> been literally NO Intervention... go figure.
>
> Guerin and the SimTable(tm) folks are naturally *much* more up to date on
> contemporary firefighting conditions and culture.   During my father's time
> in the business, they had not yet realized the extent of the hazard they
> were creating by suppressing so many fires, causing ecosystems to go out of
> balance, allowing small, fast burning forest materials to build up to the
> point that they could ignite the larger, slower-to-burn full grown trees.
> They *were* aware of it however, having the example of the US Park Service
> whose policy at the time (started shi

Re: [FRIAM] fires and weather

[Steve Smith]

Gil -

This is an interesting and timely but potentially contentious topic.  
Interesting and timely because we ARE right in the midst of some big 
fires (recently)... I just drove through the Jemez to see some of the 
most recent fire's (Thompson Ridge) damage as well as from two years 
ago.  Of course, the recent loss of 19 firefighters in AZ was is not a 
small reminder of the danger of these fires.


 My father worked for the US Forest Service from the 50's through the 
80s,  and summer was a continuous series of either local fires being 
fought nearby or him making long trips off to the really big fires in 
the pacific northwest where he often lead crews from Zuni (they were 
well known for their skill, tirelessness and cohesiveness).  One of my 
earliest memories is of my mother driving us out to where they were 
trying to stop a fire from crossing the highway near the forest camp we 
lived in.  We and some other local residents watched (safely) from a few 
hundred yards back in a large meadow as flames licked from the 
ponderosas on one side of the highway  right of way toward the other 
side. As I remember it, they did hold the fire there, but only 
barely.This was the first of nearly 20 years of fire-stories I got 
to hear as they were unfolding.  We had a fire-radio in the kitchen 
which was on 24/7 and busy throughout the summer.


My father died less than a year ago and while helping my mother sort 
through possessions I encountered an outline of the many harrowing 
experiences he had in the forest service, starting with the famous Mann 
Gulch fire in Montana  that took the lives of 13 fire fighters.   My 
Father had just been accepted to Forestry School in Missoula and was 
driving toward there from Kentucky when that fire happened.  He arrived 
as a fresh young Forestry Student in the aftermath of that very tragic 
and defining incident.   This story is well documented in the 1992 book 
"Young Men and Fire ".


Another tragic fire incident happened in the mid 1990's on the Storm 
King or South Canyon fire.  One notable difference from the 1949 tragedy 
was that by this time firefighting crews included women... in this case 
I think 4 of the 14 killed were women.


Not long after my father began work as a Forest Service Professional in 
Northern Arizona, one of his equally fresh colleagues, Billy Buck, was 
caught in a bad situation with a group of firefighters who he was able 
to save by using a technique similar to that of Wag Dodge of lighting a 
"escape fire" which clears the immediate area of combustibles in a 
lower-temperature fire, allowing firefighters to potentially survive in 
that Island of "pre-burned" area.   This was not long after the 
Mann-Gulch fire and it helped to validate that Dodge's actions (he was 
only 1 of 3 survivors of the fire and the only one who chose to stay 
within the escape fire "island" while the others insisted on trying to 
outrun the fire to their peril).   They huddled together under a tarp 
they had wet from their canteens while the fire blew past/over them.  
This technique was formalized in the mid 1970's when they started 
requiring every fire crew to carry a "fire shelter" which was 
essentially a tarp/tent with a reflective (think space blanket) 
coating.  Suffocation is often a bigger danger even than the heat of the 
fire.   Buck was credited with rescuing the entire crew with his 
forceful style (former marine)despite having no formal authority.   My 
dad believed it was the only difference between his success and Wag 
Dodge's failure (to save more than himself).


May father was appalled at how much building happened in the Pacific 
Northwest and even moreso in California, deep in the forested and other 
potentially fire-prone areas.  In the relatively uninhabited southwest, 
even a huge fire would not be that likely to threaten habitation and 
when it did, efforts could be focused on the few, relatively small areas 
of habitation.  In California, they were *always* fighting to protect 
habitations, not to stop the fire.  As it turns out, the most good for 
the most people (well, the ecosystems we people are depending on) might 
have been literally NO Intervention... go figure.


Guerin and the SimTable(tm) folks are naturally *much* more up to date 
on contemporary firefighting conditions and culture.   During my 
father's time in the business, they had not yet realized the extent of 
the hazard they were creating by suppressing so many fires, causing 
ecosystems to go out of balance, allowing small, fast burning forest 
materials to build up to the point that they could ignite the larger, 
slower-to-burn full grown trees.  They *were* aware of it however, 
having the example of the US Park Service whose policy at the time 
(started shifting in 1969)  was "complete suppression", overzealously 
not allowing *any* fire that they could stop.


I opened the topic here by saying it was a "timely