Re: [Full-disclosure] Fwd: 0day auctions, should they be outlawed?
OT i really like the name you put up. Gmail asked me if i wanted to " Invite some guy posting to full disclosure to chat" On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 11:51 PM, Some Guy Posting To Full Disclosure < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > It's futile trying to use the law to change things. > It will simply force people into the shadows. Which today involves > using tor and some Russian web money account. > > I read a slogan from before my time, in a book: "If source is outlawed > outlaws will have source" - same applies to zero days. > > Anyway I don't think it should be Illegal. I own a set of lock picks - > I don't intend to break into someone's house. And if I did I'd go to > jail (for the burglary and being equipped with picks), untill then I'm > innocent. The UKs law has an attitude like that - I like it! > Resources should go into actually preventing crimes taking place. Not > stumbling around hoping that making it awkward for criminals to get > the tools they need will make a difference. > > Simon. > > ___ > Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. > Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html > Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ > -- http://www.goldwatches.com/ http://www.jewelerslounge.com/ ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] Fwd: 0day auctions, should they be outlawed?
no. _u_ are angry. no 1 else. no 1 else gives a shit. On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 2:24 PM, n3td3v <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > who cares what it means, people are angry, there better be a > government task / strike force being setup for when these offers come > infront of everyone. we can't be complacent about the dangers of these > exploits getting bought by the bad guys. moreover, they shouldn't be > allowed to hold people to ransom when security is at stake. ultimately > they need to be outlawed, and if they can't be, then second best is a > 24 hour on stand by task /strike force. > > On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 6:54 PM, Sandy Vagina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> And by "lobbying", you mean continuing to whine on the full-disclosure list? >> >> Sandy >> >> On 11/3/08, n3td3v <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> i'll be lobbying soon to outlaw 0day auctions, this means the banning >>> of 0day sales on the internet. i've noticed an increased level in 0day >>> sales lately on mailing lists, and web sites... i think this should be >>> against the law. let me know what your opinions are on this, so i can >>> form what im going to say when i lobby people about it. cheers. >> >> ___ >> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. >> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html >> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ >> > > ___ > Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. > Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html > Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ > ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] Fwd: 0day auctions, should they be outlawed?
It's futile trying to use the law to change things. It will simply force people into the shadows. Which today involves using tor and some Russian web money account. I read a slogan from before my time, in a book: "If source is outlawed outlaws will have source" - same applies to zero days. Anyway I don't think it should be Illegal. I own a set of lock picks - I don't intend to break into someone's house. And if I did I'd go to jail (for the burglary and being equipped with picks), untill then I'm innocent. The UKs law has an attitude like that - I like it! Resources should go into actually preventing crimes taking place. Not stumbling around hoping that making it awkward for criminals to get the tools they need will make a difference. Simon. ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] Fwd: 0day auctions, should they be outlawed?
Free 0day for all!! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marc Balmer Sent: 3. november 2008 19:50 To: n3td3v Cc: full-disclosure@lists.grok.org.uk Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Fwd: 0day auctions, should they be outlawed? * n3td3v wrote: > -- Forwarded message -- > From: n3td3v <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 1:15 PM > Subject: 0day auctions, should they be outlawed? > To: n3td3v <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > i'll be lobbying soon to outlaw 0day auctions, this means the banning > of 0day sales on the internet. i've noticed an increased level in 0day > sales lately on mailing lists, and web sites... i think this should be > against the law. let me know what your opinions are on this, so i can > form what im going to say when i lobby people about it. cheers. wrong approach. there should be a law that the state has to buy all 0days and publish them here on undisclosure. that would be good use of tax money... ;) ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] Fwd: 0day auctions, should they be outlawed?
On Mon, 03 Nov 2008 22:19:24 EST, vulcanius said: > Actually in the case of n3td3v I believe his paranoia is that everyone > _except_ the government is out to get him. Black hats, white hats, 83 year > old grandmothers, the lot of 'em. Remember now, according to himself he IS a > researcher exploring the seedy underbelly of the interwebs and it's > inhabitants, all of which apparently frequent security mailing lists. His list has 5,000 alleged people (quite probably a lot are actually sock puppets) There's 600 million Internet users. He's 599,995,000 users short. pgpF2psHqMCfF.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] Fwd: 0day auctions, should they be outlawed?
Actually in the case of n3td3v I believe his paranoia is that everyone _except_ the government is out to get him. Black hats, white hats, 83 year old grandmothers, the lot of 'em. Remember now, according to himself he IS a researcher exploring the seedy underbelly of the interwebs and it's inhabitants, all of which apparently frequent security mailing lists. On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 9:25 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Mon, 03 Nov 2008 18:00:30 EST, vulcanius said: > > > Because n3td3v is paranoid and believes the government should run just > about > > everything. > > No, paranoid means you think the government already does run just about > everything, whether or not you think it should. :) > ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] Fwd: 0day auctions, should they be outlawed?
On Mon, 03 Nov 2008 18:00:30 EST, vulcanius said: > Because n3td3v is paranoid and believes the government should run just about > everything. No, paranoid means you think the government already does run just about everything, whether or not you think it should. :) pgpuQqHGvSLfF.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] Fwd: 0day auctions, should they be outlawed?
Because n3td3v is paranoid and believes the government should run just about everything. On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 5:45 PM, Email Cash <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I think that ZDI/TippingPoint and the other legit private outfits have > been doing a pretty decent job so far. Why bring the law into it? > > > On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 7:29 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > There should be a FD listing fee for the 0day so the list can garner a > > commission from the sale. > > > > Absolutely no increase in government should be directed toward 0day sale > > prevention or enforcement. > > The answer to these things rarely should incude the words 'government', > > 'task' and 'force'. > > > > > > > > From: "n3td3v" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 11:00 AM > > To: full-disclosure@lists.grok.org.uk > > Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Fwd: 0day auctions, should they be > outlawed? > > > > On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 6:49 PM, Marc Balmer wrote: > >> * n3td3v wrote: > >>> -- Forwarded message -- > >>> From: n3td3v > >>> Date: Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 1:15 PM > >>> Subject: 0day auctions, should they be outlawed? > >>> To: n3td3v > >>> > >>> > >>> i'll be lobbying soon to outlaw 0day auctions, this means the banning > >>> of 0day sales on the internet. i've noticed an increased level in 0day > >>> sales lately on mailing lists, and web sites... i think this should be > >>> against the law. let me know what your opinions are on this, so i can > >>> form what im going to say when i lobby people about it. cheers. > >> > >> wrong approach. there should be a law that the state has to buy > >> all 0days and publish them here on undisclosure. that would be > >> good use of tax money... ;) > >> > > > > the latest guy put up an alias that says "anti security" and i guess > > demanded money to make the 0day be known, and then there is still no > > guarantee that the affected vendor or the government is going to get > > wind of the exploit. that means, there is going to need to be a > > government task force in place to infiltrate these sales, to make sure > > the good guys are getting the info before blackhat elements. is there > > already a government strike force in place to buy these "0day offers"? > > or are the government sitting on their hand as per usual? im becoming > > increasingly frustrated about what is going on. cheers. > > > > ___ > > Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. > > Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html > > Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ > > > > > > ___ > > Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. > > Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html > > Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ > > > > ___ > Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. > Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html > Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ > ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] Fwd: 0day auctions, should they be outlawed?
I think that ZDI/TippingPoint and the other legit private outfits have been doing a pretty decent job so far. Why bring the law into it? On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 7:29 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > There should be a FD listing fee for the 0day so the list can garner a > commission from the sale. > > Absolutely no increase in government should be directed toward 0day sale > prevention or enforcement. > The answer to these things rarely should incude the words 'government', > 'task' and 'force'. > > > > From: "n3td3v" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 11:00 AM > To: full-disclosure@lists.grok.org.uk > Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Fwd: 0day auctions, should they be outlawed? > > On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 6:49 PM, Marc Balmer wrote: >> * n3td3v wrote: >>> -- Forwarded message -- >>> From: n3td3v >>> Date: Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 1:15 PM >>> Subject: 0day auctions, should they be outlawed? >>> To: n3td3v >>> >>> >>> i'll be lobbying soon to outlaw 0day auctions, this means the banning >>> of 0day sales on the internet. i've noticed an increased level in 0day >>> sales lately on mailing lists, and web sites... i think this should be >>> against the law. let me know what your opinions are on this, so i can >>> form what im going to say when i lobby people about it. cheers. >> >> wrong approach. there should be a law that the state has to buy >> all 0days and publish them here on undisclosure. that would be >> good use of tax money... ;) >> > > the latest guy put up an alias that says "anti security" and i guess > demanded money to make the 0day be known, and then there is still no > guarantee that the affected vendor or the government is going to get > wind of the exploit. that means, there is going to need to be a > government task force in place to infiltrate these sales, to make sure > the good guys are getting the info before blackhat elements. is there > already a government strike force in place to buy these "0day offers"? > or are the government sitting on their hand as per usual? im becoming > increasingly frustrated about what is going on. cheers. > > ___ > Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. > Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html > Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ > > > ___ > Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. > Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html > Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ > ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] Fwd: 0day auctions, should they be outlawed?
There should be a FD listing fee for the 0day so the list can garner a commission from the sale. Absolutely no increase in government should be directed toward 0day sale prevention or enforcement. The answer to these things rarely should incude the words 'government', 'task' and 'force'. From: "n3td3v" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 11:00 AM To: full-disclosure@lists.grok.org.uk Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Fwd: 0day auctions, should they be outlawed? On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 6:49 PM, Marc Balmer wrote: > * n3td3v wrote: >> -- Forwarded message -- >> From: n3td3v >> Date: Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 1:15 PM >> Subject: 0day auctions, should they be outlawed? >> To: n3td3v >> >> >> i'll be lobbying soon to outlaw 0day auctions, this means the banning >> of 0day sales on the internet. i've noticed an increased level in 0day >> sales lately on mailing lists, and web sites... i think this should be >> against the law. let me know what your opinions are on this, so i can >> form what im going to say when i lobby people about it. cheers. > > wrong approach. there should be a law that the state has to buy > all 0days and publish them here on undisclosure. that would be > good use of tax money... ;) > the latest guy put up an alias that says "anti security" and i guess demanded money to make the 0day be known, and then there is still no guarantee that the affected vendor or the government is going to get wind of the exploit. that means, there is going to need to be a government task force in place to infiltrate these sales, to make sure the good guys are getting the info before blackhat elements. is there already a government strike force in place to buy these "0day offers"? or are the government sitting on their hand as per usual? im becoming increasingly frustrated about what is going on. cheers. ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] Fwd: 0day auctions, should they be outlawed?
who cares what it means, people are angry, there better be a government task / strike force being setup for when these offers come infront of everyone. we can't be complacent about the dangers of these exploits getting bought by the bad guys. moreover, they shouldn't be allowed to hold people to ransom when security is at stake. ultimately they need to be outlawed, and if they can't be, then second best is a 24 hour on stand by task /strike force. On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 6:54 PM, Sandy Vagina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > And by "lobbying", you mean continuing to whine on the full-disclosure list? > > Sandy > > On 11/3/08, n3td3v <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> i'll be lobbying soon to outlaw 0day auctions, this means the banning >> of 0day sales on the internet. i've noticed an increased level in 0day >> sales lately on mailing lists, and web sites... i think this should be >> against the law. let me know what your opinions are on this, so i can >> form what im going to say when i lobby people about it. cheers. > > ___ > Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. > Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html > Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ > ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] Fwd: 0day auctions, should they be outlawed?
they wont be, and they cant be outlawed. fight a fight worth fighting. cause this is 1 u cant. On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 1:43 PM, n3td3v <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > -- Forwarded message -- > From: n3td3v <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 1:15 PM > Subject: 0day auctions, should they be outlawed? > To: n3td3v <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > i'll be lobbying soon to outlaw 0day auctions, this means the banning > of 0day sales on the internet. i've noticed an increased level in 0day > sales lately on mailing lists, and web sites... i think this should be > against the law. let me know what your opinions are on this, so i can > form what im going to say when i lobby people about it. cheers. > > ___ > Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. > Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html > Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ > ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] Fwd: 0day auctions, should they be outlawed?
And by "lobbying", you mean continuing to whine on the full-disclosure list? Sandy On 11/3/08, n3td3v <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > i'll be lobbying soon to outlaw 0day auctions, this means the banning > of 0day sales on the internet. i've noticed an increased level in 0day > sales lately on mailing lists, and web sites... i think this should be > against the law. let me know what your opinions are on this, so i can > form what im going to say when i lobby people about it. cheers. ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] Fwd: 0day auctions, should they be outlawed?
* n3td3v wrote: > -- Forwarded message -- > From: n3td3v <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 1:15 PM > Subject: 0day auctions, should they be outlawed? > To: n3td3v <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > i'll be lobbying soon to outlaw 0day auctions, this means the banning > of 0day sales on the internet. i've noticed an increased level in 0day > sales lately on mailing lists, and web sites... i think this should be > against the law. let me know what your opinions are on this, so i can > form what im going to say when i lobby people about it. cheers. wrong approach. there should be a law that the state has to buy all 0days and publish them here on undisclosure. that would be good use of tax money... ;) ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] Fwd: 0day auctions, should they be outlawed?
On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 6:49 PM, Marc Balmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > * n3td3v wrote: >> -- Forwarded message -- >> From: n3td3v <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Date: Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 1:15 PM >> Subject: 0day auctions, should they be outlawed? >> To: n3td3v <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >> >> i'll be lobbying soon to outlaw 0day auctions, this means the banning >> of 0day sales on the internet. i've noticed an increased level in 0day >> sales lately on mailing lists, and web sites... i think this should be >> against the law. let me know what your opinions are on this, so i can >> form what im going to say when i lobby people about it. cheers. > > wrong approach. there should be a law that the state has to buy > all 0days and publish them here on undisclosure. that would be > good use of tax money... ;) > the latest guy put up an alias that says "anti security" and i guess demanded money to make the 0day be known, and then there is still no guarantee that the affected vendor or the government is going to get wind of the exploit. that means, there is going to need to be a government task force in place to infiltrate these sales, to make sure the good guys are getting the info before blackhat elements. is there already a government strike force in place to buy these "0day offers"? or are the government sitting on their hand as per usual? im becoming increasingly frustrated about what is going on. cheers. ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
[Full-disclosure] Fwd: 0day auctions, should they be outlawed?
-- Forwarded message -- From: n3td3v <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 1:15 PM Subject: 0day auctions, should they be outlawed? To: n3td3v <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> i'll be lobbying soon to outlaw 0day auctions, this means the banning of 0day sales on the internet. i've noticed an increased level in 0day sales lately on mailing lists, and web sites... i think this should be against the law. let me know what your opinions are on this, so i can form what im going to say when i lobby people about it. cheers. ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
