Re: [Full-disclosure] Re: Re: PC Firewall Choices
Nancy, Check out bullgard for your home/personal firewall/av/etc. Its rather decent for your average mom/pop/home user. -Adriel -Original Message- From: Nancy Kramer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; full-disclosure@lists.grok.org.uk Sent: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 02:42:00 -0500 Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Re: Re: PC Firewall Choices I guess I will stick with Kasperky which will probably phone home to Russia or something. Does anyone have any experience with the Firewall that comes with paid AVG? I just run free AVG currently on most computers so have not used it . Regards, Nancy Kramer At 01:15 AM 1/20/2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >I have been following this discussion waiting for someone to mention another "feature" of Zone Alarm: >Posted January 13, 3:00 a.m. PST Pacific Time, >ROBERT X. CRINGELY http://www.infoworld.com/ > >A Perfect Spy? It seems that ZoneAlarm Security Suite has been phoning >home, even when told not to. Last fall, InfoWorld Senior Contributing >Editor James Borck discovered ZA 6.0 was surreptitiously sending >encrypted data back to four different servers, despite disabling all of >the suite's communications options. Zone Labs denied the flaw for nearly >two months, then eventually chalked it up to a "bug" in the software -- >even though instructions to contact the servers were set out in the >program's XML code. A company spokesmodel says a fix for the flaw will >be coming soon and worried users can get around the bug by modifying >their Host file settings. However, there's no truth to the rumor that >the NSA used ZoneAlarm to spy on U.S. citizens. > > >:) > >Hummer >- Original Message - From: "Nancy Kramer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "Greg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; >Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 11:27 PM >Subject: RE: [Full-disclosure] Re: Re: PC Firewall Choices > > >>I have the paid ZA but I heard the free one was better. Have no idea >>about that but would never buy the paid version again. At least now I >>know what was happening. Will try to look for that feature and set it to >>the maximum minutes. I only have it on my laptop which only goes on the >>internet sporadically but generally goes on the internet on public >>wireless networks which I think may not be all that secure. Lots of >>times I am meeting with someone there and we talk and then lookup >>something on the internet. I could see how time could pass quickly and I >>might not touch the computer for awhile. Thanks for the explanation. >> >>Regards, >> >>Nancy Kramer >> >> >> At 10:10 PM 1/19/2006, Greg wrote: >> >> >> >>> > -Original Message- >>> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf >>> > Of Nancy Kramer >>> > Sent: Friday, 20 January 2006 2:30 PM >>> > To: Stan Bubrouski; full-disclosure@lists.grok.org.uk >>> > Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Re: Re: PC Firewall Choices >>> > >>> > >>> > I admit I know nothing about firewalls but with ZA I have had >>> > to shut it >>> > down sometimes to go onto the internet. I have no idea why. >>> > I just can't >>> > get on and when I shut it down I can. >>> > >>> >>>That'd be a well known and never fixed bug I reported to Zonelabs some years >>>back now. It has a feature to automatically lock internet connection after >>>so many minutes of inactivity. The length of time can be changed by the >>>user. What it REALLY did was cut off access to internet and any LAN you were >>>on, isolating you entirely and never actually let go of it when the user was >>>back at the keyboard. Exiting ZA let that go and internet and lan were >>>restored. You have the option to turn that feature OFF but even that didn't >>>stop the whole thing happening. So, about the only thing you could do was to >>>set the auto lock as high as it could go and turn the feature off. It would >>>still go off after that many minutes had passed (which I believe is 999 in >>>the PRO version and 99 in the free version) and lock you out again but it >>>was delayed by that much, at least. >>> >>>You CAN set certain programs to pass by its' lock, however. So, if you have >>>some computers almost always chattering away on a distributed project but >>>otherwise not touched, you could allow those programs to pass on even >>>though, should you attempt to get out with a
Re: [Full-disclosure] Re: Re: PC Firewall Choices
Nancy, I was not trying to make the point that ZA is some buggy unusable crap. Just that even properly configured we have encountered instances where it misbehaves, behaves inconsistently, and slows down web browsing with IE (not so much with opera or firefox apparently as I tried that out last night under a few setups). That said, configuring it correctly is key to its operation, if you misclicked at some point and accidently set a rule not to allow certain traffic or a certain application access to the network then you may experience the problems you describe. Please make sure you review all the rules and specific application settings to make sure your problems aren't configuration-related. -sb On 1/20/06, Nancy Kramer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I have the paid ZA but I heard the free one was better. Have no idea about > that but would never buy the paid version again. At least now I know what > was happening. Will try to look for that feature and set it to the maximum > minutes. I only have it on my laptop which only goes on the internet > sporadically but generally goes on the internet on public wireless networks > which I think may not be all that secure. Lots of times I am meeting with > someone there and we talk and then lookup something on the internet. I > could see how time could pass quickly and I might not touch the computer > for awhile. Thanks for the explanation. > > Regards, > > Nancy Kramer > > >At 10:10 PM 1/19/2006, Greg wrote: > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > > > Of Nancy Kramer > > > Sent: Friday, 20 January 2006 2:30 PM > > > To: Stan Bubrouski; full-disclosure@lists.grok.org.uk > > > Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Re: Re: PC Firewall Choices > > > > > > > > > I admit I know nothing about firewalls but with ZA I have had > > > to shut it > > > down sometimes to go onto the internet. I have no idea why. > > > I just can't > > > get on and when I shut it down I can. > > > > > > >That'd be a well known and never fixed bug I reported to Zonelabs some years > >back now. It has a feature to automatically lock internet connection after > >so many minutes of inactivity. The length of time can be changed by the > >user. What it REALLY did was cut off access to internet and any LAN you were > >on, isolating you entirely and never actually let go of it when the user was > >back at the keyboard. Exiting ZA let that go and internet and lan were > >restored. You have the option to turn that feature OFF but even that didn't > >stop the whole thing happening. So, about the only thing you could do was to > >set the auto lock as high as it could go and turn the feature off. It would > >still go off after that many minutes had passed (which I believe is 999 in > >the PRO version and 99 in the free version) and lock you out again but it > >was delayed by that much, at least. > > > >You CAN set certain programs to pass by its' lock, however. So, if you have > >some computers almost always chattering away on a distributed project but > >otherwise not touched, you could allow those programs to pass on even > >though, should you attempt to get out with a simple web browser (where it > >wasn't allowed to pass the lock), you cant. Saves some stuffing about on > >such machines and let's face it - the more "free" some company execs see, > >the more likely they are to use it. Surprising how many Windows based > >companies use free ZA. > > > >___ > >Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. > >Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html > >Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > >No virus found in this incoming message. > >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > >Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 1/16/2006 > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 1/16/2006 > > > ___ > Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. > Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html > Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ > ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] Re: Re: PC Firewall Choices
I guess I will stick with Kasperky which will probably phone home to Russia or something. Does anyone have any experience with the Firewall that comes with paid AVG? I just run free AVG currently on most computers so have not used it . Regards, Nancy Kramer At 01:15 AM 1/20/2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have been following this discussion waiting for someone to mention another "feature" of Zone Alarm: Posted January 13, 3:00 a.m. PST Pacific Time, ROBERT X. CRINGELY http://www.infoworld.com/ A Perfect Spy? It seems that ZoneAlarm Security Suite has been phoning home, even when told not to. Last fall, InfoWorld Senior Contributing Editor James Borck discovered ZA 6.0 was surreptitiously sending encrypted data back to four different servers, despite disabling all of the suite's communications options. Zone Labs denied the flaw for nearly two months, then eventually chalked it up to a "bug" in the software -- even though instructions to contact the servers were set out in the program's XML code. A company spokesmodel says a fix for the flaw will be coming soon and worried users can get around the bug by modifying their Host file settings. However, there's no truth to the rumor that the NSA used ZoneAlarm to spy on U.S. citizens. :) Hummer - Original Message - From: "Nancy Kramer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Greg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 11:27 PM Subject: RE: [Full-disclosure] Re: Re: PC Firewall Choices I have the paid ZA but I heard the free one was better. Have no idea about that but would never buy the paid version again. At least now I know what was happening. Will try to look for that feature and set it to the maximum minutes. I only have it on my laptop which only goes on the internet sporadically but generally goes on the internet on public wireless networks which I think may not be all that secure. Lots of times I am meeting with someone there and we talk and then lookup something on the internet. I could see how time could pass quickly and I might not touch the computer for awhile. Thanks for the explanation. Regards, Nancy Kramer At 10:10 PM 1/19/2006, Greg wrote: > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of Nancy Kramer > Sent: Friday, 20 January 2006 2:30 PM > To: Stan Bubrouski; full-disclosure@lists.grok.org.uk > Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Re: Re: PC Firewall Choices > > > I admit I know nothing about firewalls but with ZA I have had > to shut it > down sometimes to go onto the internet. I have no idea why. > I just can't > get on and when I shut it down I can. > That'd be a well known and never fixed bug I reported to Zonelabs some years back now. It has a feature to automatically lock internet connection after so many minutes of inactivity. The length of time can be changed by the user. What it REALLY did was cut off access to internet and any LAN you were on, isolating you entirely and never actually let go of it when the user was back at the keyboard. Exiting ZA let that go and internet and lan were restored. You have the option to turn that feature OFF but even that didn't stop the whole thing happening. So, about the only thing you could do was to set the auto lock as high as it could go and turn the feature off. It would still go off after that many minutes had passed (which I believe is 999 in the PRO version and 99 in the free version) and lock you out again but it was delayed by that much, at least. You CAN set certain programs to pass by its' lock, however. So, if you have some computers almost always chattering away on a distributed project but otherwise not touched, you could allow those programs to pass on even though, should you attempt to get out with a simple web browser (where it wasn't allowed to pass the lock), you cant. Saves some stuffing about on such machines and let's face it - the more "free" some company execs see, the more likely they are to use it. Surprising how many Windows based companies use free ZA. ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 1/16/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 1/16/2006 ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ ___
Re: [Full-disclosure] Re: Re: PC Firewall Choices
I have been following this discussion waiting for someone to mention another "feature" of Zone Alarm: Posted January 13, 3:00 a.m. PST Pacific Time, ROBERT X. CRINGELY http://www.infoworld.com/ A Perfect Spy? It seems that ZoneAlarm Security Suite has been phoning home, even when told not to. Last fall, InfoWorld Senior Contributing Editor James Borck discovered ZA 6.0 was surreptitiously sending encrypted data back to four different servers, despite disabling all of the suite's communications options. Zone Labs denied the flaw for nearly two months, then eventually chalked it up to a "bug" in the software -- even though instructions to contact the servers were set out in the program's XML code. A company spokesmodel says a fix for the flaw will be coming soon and worried users can get around the bug by modifying their Host file settings. However, there's no truth to the rumor that the NSA used ZoneAlarm to spy on U.S. citizens. :) Hummer - Original Message - From: "Nancy Kramer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Greg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 11:27 PM Subject: RE: [Full-disclosure] Re: Re: PC Firewall Choices I have the paid ZA but I heard the free one was better. Have no idea about that but would never buy the paid version again. At least now I know what was happening. Will try to look for that feature and set it to the maximum minutes. I only have it on my laptop which only goes on the internet sporadically but generally goes on the internet on public wireless networks which I think may not be all that secure. Lots of times I am meeting with someone there and we talk and then lookup something on the internet. I could see how time could pass quickly and I might not touch the computer for awhile. Thanks for the explanation. Regards, Nancy Kramer At 10:10 PM 1/19/2006, Greg wrote: > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of Nancy Kramer > Sent: Friday, 20 January 2006 2:30 PM > To: Stan Bubrouski; full-disclosure@lists.grok.org.uk > Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Re: Re: PC Firewall Choices > > > I admit I know nothing about firewalls but with ZA I have had > to shut it > down sometimes to go onto the internet. I have no idea why. > I just can't > get on and when I shut it down I can. > That'd be a well known and never fixed bug I reported to Zonelabs some years back now. It has a feature to automatically lock internet connection after so many minutes of inactivity. The length of time can be changed by the user. What it REALLY did was cut off access to internet and any LAN you were on, isolating you entirely and never actually let go of it when the user was back at the keyboard. Exiting ZA let that go and internet and lan were restored. You have the option to turn that feature OFF but even that didn't stop the whole thing happening. So, about the only thing you could do was to set the auto lock as high as it could go and turn the feature off. It would still go off after that many minutes had passed (which I believe is 999 in the PRO version and 99 in the free version) and lock you out again but it was delayed by that much, at least. You CAN set certain programs to pass by its' lock, however. So, if you have some computers almost always chattering away on a distributed project but otherwise not touched, you could allow those programs to pass on even though, should you attempt to get out with a simple web browser (where it wasn't allowed to pass the lock), you cant. Saves some stuffing about on such machines and let's face it - the more "free" some company execs see, the more likely they are to use it. Surprising how many Windows based companies use free ZA. ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 1/16/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 1/16/2006 ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
RE: [Full-disclosure] Re: Re: PC Firewall Choices
I have the paid ZA but I heard the free one was better. Have no idea about that but would never buy the paid version again. At least now I know what was happening. Will try to look for that feature and set it to the maximum minutes. I only have it on my laptop which only goes on the internet sporadically but generally goes on the internet on public wireless networks which I think may not be all that secure. Lots of times I am meeting with someone there and we talk and then lookup something on the internet. I could see how time could pass quickly and I might not touch the computer for awhile. Thanks for the explanation. Regards, Nancy Kramer At 10:10 PM 1/19/2006, Greg wrote: > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of Nancy Kramer > Sent: Friday, 20 January 2006 2:30 PM > To: Stan Bubrouski; full-disclosure@lists.grok.org.uk > Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Re: Re: PC Firewall Choices > > > I admit I know nothing about firewalls but with ZA I have had > to shut it > down sometimes to go onto the internet. I have no idea why. > I just can't > get on and when I shut it down I can. > That'd be a well known and never fixed bug I reported to Zonelabs some years back now. It has a feature to automatically lock internet connection after so many minutes of inactivity. The length of time can be changed by the user. What it REALLY did was cut off access to internet and any LAN you were on, isolating you entirely and never actually let go of it when the user was back at the keyboard. Exiting ZA let that go and internet and lan were restored. You have the option to turn that feature OFF but even that didn't stop the whole thing happening. So, about the only thing you could do was to set the auto lock as high as it could go and turn the feature off. It would still go off after that many minutes had passed (which I believe is 999 in the PRO version and 99 in the free version) and lock you out again but it was delayed by that much, at least. You CAN set certain programs to pass by its' lock, however. So, if you have some computers almost always chattering away on a distributed project but otherwise not touched, you could allow those programs to pass on even though, should you attempt to get out with a simple web browser (where it wasn't allowed to pass the lock), you cant. Saves some stuffing about on such machines and let's face it - the more "free" some company execs see, the more likely they are to use it. Surprising how many Windows based companies use free ZA. ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 1/16/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 1/16/2006 ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
FW: [Full-disclosure] Re: Re: PC Firewall Choices (an alternative choice)
From: William DeRieux [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 10:24 PM To: 'Nancy Kramer' Subject: RE: [Full-disclosure] Re: Re: PC Firewall Choices (an alternative choice) You could try, 8signs firewall (it is designed with servers in mind, but works for home desktops just as well) 8Sings firewall, not free though, has a wizard that walks you through creating a ruleset Asking you what servies you want to run, webserver, emailserver, etc, etc, even things that aren't servers. Plus it is really easy to use, if you inititally tell it to block all traffic, unless there is a rule for that particular traffic, no packets or data That don’t have a corresponding rule will not be able to get throught; You can right-click on that traffic in the programs log window and tell it To make a ruleset for the specific traffic, and choose to block or accepts incoming/outgoing connections or both (as simple as point & click), I havent had any trouble with it, and have been running it for about half of a year. It has TCP, UDP, ICMP, ARP, RARP, & Mac Address Rules - with different configuration for each network adapter, both ethernet & wireless. It also has a configuration wizard for each adapter. And has the following other options *SYN Flood Protection *Port Scan Protection *and Automatic & Manual Ban List (for flooding, port scanning, etc) It even has a built-in learning mode You can look them up here: http://www.consealfirewall.com/ William (*note I am not trying to ADVERTISE THIS PRODUCT, I AM just trying to help give someone an alternative, they may not have known about*) FC, ROCKS! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nancy Kramer Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 10:30 PM To: Stan Bubrouski; full-disclosure@lists.grok.org.uk Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Re: Re: PC Firewall Choices I admit I know nothing about firewalls but with ZA I have had to shut it down sometimes to go onto the internet. I have no idea why. I just can't get on and when I shut it down I can. Never had the problem with Kaspersky. I do know that configuring a firewall right takes some knowledge and I know I don't know how to do that and ZA did not come with instructions telling me that, but Kaspersky was intuitive. If just popped up and asked if you want to let a certain application get on the internet and you answer yes or no and then it remembers. I think someone who did not even know what a firewall is could use it on their computer without problems like a typical end user. That impresses me. With the proliferation of broadband I think the typical home user should have a software firewall if they have broadband. Naturally a friend of mine had Windows XP and Norton Firewall and his machine on broadband got hacked anyway. But that is consumer Norton and that is another story which would be off topic to this subject. Regards, Nancy Kramer Webmaster http://www.americandreamcars.com Free Color Picture Ads for Collector Cars One of the Ten Best Places To Buy or Sell a Collector Car on the Web -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.21/235 - Release Date: 1/19/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.21/235 - Release Date: 1/19/2006 ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
FW: [Full-disclosure] Re: Re: PC Firewall Choices (an alternative choice)
From: William DeRieux [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 10:24 PM To: 'Nancy Kramer' Subject: RE: [Full-disclosure] Re: Re: PC Firewall Choices (an alternative choice) You could try, 8signs firewall (it is designed with servers in mind, but works for home desktops just as well) 8Sings firewall, not free though, has a wizard that walks you through creating a ruleset Asking you what servies you want to run, webserver, emailserver, etc, etc, even things that aren't servers. Plus it is really easy to use, if you inititally tell it to block all traffic, unless there is a rule for that particular traffic, no packets or data That don’t have a corresponding rule will not be able to get throught; You can right-click on that traffic in the programs log window and tell it To make a ruleset for the specific traffic, and choose to block or accepts incoming/outgoing connections or both (as simple as point & click), I havent had any trouble with it, and have been running it for about half of a year. It has TCP, UDP, ICMP, ARP, RARP, & Mac Address Rules - with different configuration for each network adapter, both ethernet & wireless. It also has a configuration wizard for each adapter. And has the following other options *SYN Flood Protection *Port Scan Protection *and Automatic & Manual Ban List (for flooding, port scanning, etc) It even has a built-in learning mode You can look them up here: http://www.consealfirewall.com/ William (*note I am not trying to ADVERTISE THIS PRODUCT, I AM just trying to help give someone an alternative, they may not have known about*) FC, ROCKS! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nancy Kramer Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 10:30 PM To: Stan Bubrouski; full-disclosure@lists.grok.org.uk Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Re: Re: PC Firewall Choices I admit I know nothing about firewalls but with ZA I have had to shut it down sometimes to go onto the internet. I have no idea why. I just can't get on and when I shut it down I can. Never had the problem with Kaspersky. I do know that configuring a firewall right takes some knowledge and I know I don't know how to do that and ZA did not come with instructions telling me that, but Kaspersky was intuitive. If just popped up and asked if you want to let a certain application get on the internet and you answer yes or no and then it remembers. I think someone who did not even know what a firewall is could use it on their computer without problems like a typical end user. That impresses me. With the proliferation of broadband I think the typical home user should have a software firewall if they have broadband. Naturally a friend of mine had Windows XP and Norton Firewall and his machine on broadband got hacked anyway. But that is consumer Norton and that is another story which would be off topic to this subject. Regards, Nancy Kramer Webmaster http://www.americandreamcars.com Free Color Picture Ads for Collector Cars One of the Ten Best Places To Buy or Sell a Collector Car on the Web -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.21/235 - Release Date: 1/19/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.21/235 - Release Date: 1/19/2006 ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
RE: [Full-disclosure] Re: Re: PC Firewall Choices
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of Nancy Kramer > Sent: Friday, 20 January 2006 2:30 PM > To: Stan Bubrouski; full-disclosure@lists.grok.org.uk > Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Re: Re: PC Firewall Choices > > > I admit I know nothing about firewalls but with ZA I have had > to shut it > down sometimes to go onto the internet. I have no idea why. > I just can't > get on and when I shut it down I can. > That'd be a well known and never fixed bug I reported to Zonelabs some years back now. It has a feature to automatically lock internet connection after so many minutes of inactivity. The length of time can be changed by the user. What it REALLY did was cut off access to internet and any LAN you were on, isolating you entirely and never actually let go of it when the user was back at the keyboard. Exiting ZA let that go and internet and lan were restored. You have the option to turn that feature OFF but even that didn't stop the whole thing happening. So, about the only thing you could do was to set the auto lock as high as it could go and turn the feature off. It would still go off after that many minutes had passed (which I believe is 999 in the PRO version and 99 in the free version) and lock you out again but it was delayed by that much, at least. You CAN set certain programs to pass by its' lock, however. So, if you have some computers almost always chattering away on a distributed project but otherwise not touched, you could allow those programs to pass on even though, should you attempt to get out with a simple web browser (where it wasn't allowed to pass the lock), you cant. Saves some stuffing about on such machines and let's face it - the more "free" some company execs see, the more likely they are to use it. Surprising how many Windows based companies use free ZA. ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] Re: Re: PC Firewall Choices
On 1/19/06, Greg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I don't think anymore needs be said. Your mistakes, above, are enough to > condemn you by your own word so for the sake of not making this any worse, > we'll leave it here. > What a convenient cop-out. -sb > ___ > Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. > Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html > Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ > ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
RE: [Full-disclosure] Re: Re: PC Firewall Choices
> -Original Message- > From: Stan Bubrouski [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, 20 January 2006 8:37 AM > To: Greg > Cc: full-disclosure@lists.grok.org.uk > Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Re: Re: PC Firewall Choices > > > On 1/19/06, Greg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Stan > > > Bubrouski > > > Sent: Friday, 20 January 2006 7:51 AM > > > To: full-disclosure@lists.grok.org.uk > > > Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Re: Re: PC Firewall Choices > > > > > > > > > On 1/19/06, Dave Korn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > Stan Bubrouski wrote in > > > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > As cruel as that last message was I'm sick of the ZA > pros here > > > > > saying its perfect, its not, far from it. > > > > > > > > Since nobody has ever claimed that ZA is perfect, in > > > saying this you > > > > prove > > > > > > Yeah I didn't literally mean perfect, only that certain > people seem > > > to argue that everyone's complaints about ZA aren't real because > > > they don't experience them. What proof > > > > > > Actually, seeing no-one actually said that, I suppose that is a > > pointer towards you REALLY meaning that YOU cant make the prog do > > something therefore no-one can. > > I said it slowed down IE on machines here and some apps > wouldn't start. Where did I claim that everyone had this > problem? Again just because something doesn't affect you > doesn't mean ZA isn't at fault... unless you are sitting at > the exact same computer as me I don't see how you can know this... > > > > > > > could I profer here? Some flawed benchmark? A video? > Why would I > > > bother you assume I'm lying anyways. > > > > > > > that your claims are either lies or hyperbole. If you > can't argue > > > > with what > > > > > > So because you think that one sentence is misleading (in > retrospect > > > 'perfect' was not a good word choice), everything else I > said must > > > be untrue. Sigh. > > > > > > > people actually said, making up things that they didn't say is > > > > fatuously dishonest. > > > > > > You are the one being dishonest and the one exaggerating > here. You > > > take something too literally, and call people > > > > Actually, I would have to agree with him that it was you > doing that. > > You either lied or exaggerated above as I pointed out. Deal with it. > > How selectively we read. He accused me of lying about using > the word perfect (I didn't mean it literally) and then said > my claims that ZA slowed down IE and caused some apps not to > load here are either lies or exaggerated because he says so. > And now because you say so... you've convinced me! Is there > some benchmark you'd like me to run to prove it to you? > I don't think anymore needs be said. Your mistakes, above, are enough to condemn you by your own word so for the sake of not making this any worse, we'll leave it here. ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] Re: Re: PC Firewall Choices
I admit I know nothing about firewalls but with ZA I have had to shut it down sometimes to go onto the internet. I have no idea why. I just can't get on and when I shut it down I can. Never had the problem with Kaspersky. I do know that configuring a firewall right takes some knowledge and I know I don't know how to do that and ZA did not come with instructions telling me that, but Kaspersky was intuitive. If just popped up and asked if you want to let a certain application get on the internet and you answer yes or no and then it remembers. I think someone who did not even know what a firewall is could use it on their computer without problems like a typical end user. That impresses me. With the proliferation of broadband I think the typical home user should have a software firewall if they have broadband. Naturally a friend of mine had Windows XP and Norton Firewall and his machine on broadband got hacked anyway. But that is consumer Norton and that is another story which would be off topic to this subject. Regards, Nancy Kramer Webmaster http://www.americandreamcars.com Free Color Picture Ads for Collector Cars One of the Ten Best Places To Buy or Sell a Collector Car on the Web At 03:51 PM 1/19/2006, Stan Bubrouski wrote: On 1/19/06, Dave Korn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Stan Bubrouski wrote in > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > As cruel as that last message was I'm sick of the ZA pros here saying > > its perfect, its not, far from it. > > Since nobody has ever claimed that ZA is perfect, in saying this you prove Yeah I didn't literally mean perfect, only that certain people seem to argue that everyone's complaints about ZA aren't real because they don't experience them. What proof could I profer here? Some flawed benchmark? A video? Why would I bother you assume I'm lying anyways. > that your claims are either lies or hyperbole. If you can't argue with what So because you think that one sentence is misleading (in retrospect 'perfect' was not a good word choice), everything else I said must be untrue. Sigh. > people actually said, making up things that they didn't say is fatuously > dishonest. You are the one being dishonest and the one exaggerating here. You take something too literally, and call people liars. Two machines, one with NPF one with ZA. When ZA is running on one, IE is slow, when its off its slightly faster than the machine with NPF. It's not a lie, its reality. You can fly here and come see for yourself, but you can't touch anything. I don't know where you've been. -sb > > cheers, > DaveK > -- > Can't think of a witty .sigline today Roses are Red, Violets are Blue, How much is ZA paying...YOU! > > > > ___ > Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. > Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html > Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ > ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 1/16/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 1/16/2006 ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] Re: Re: PC Firewall Choices
On 1/19/06, Greg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > > Of Stan Bubrouski > > Sent: Friday, 20 January 2006 7:51 AM > > To: full-disclosure@lists.grok.org.uk > > Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Re: Re: PC Firewall Choices > > > > > > On 1/19/06, Dave Korn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > Stan Bubrouski wrote in > > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > As cruel as that last message was I'm sick of the ZA pros here > > > > saying its perfect, its not, far from it. > > > > > > Since nobody has ever claimed that ZA is perfect, in > > saying this you > > > prove > > > > Yeah I didn't literally mean perfect, only that certain > > people seem to argue that everyone's complaints about ZA > > aren't real because they don't experience them. What proof > > > Actually, seeing no-one actually said that, I suppose that is a pointer > towards you REALLY meaning that YOU cant make the prog do something > therefore no-one can. I said it slowed down IE on machines here and some apps wouldn't start. Where did I claim that everyone had this problem? Again just because something doesn't affect you doesn't mean ZA isn't at fault... unless you are sitting at the exact same computer as me I don't see how you can know this... > > could I profer here? Some flawed benchmark? A video? Why > > would I bother you assume I'm lying anyways. > > > > > that your claims are either lies or hyperbole. If you can't argue > > > with what > > > > So because you think that one sentence is misleading (in > > retrospect 'perfect' was not a good word choice), everything > > else I said must be untrue. Sigh. > > > > > people actually said, making up things that they didn't say is > > > fatuously dishonest. > > > > You are the one being dishonest and the one exaggerating > > here. You take something too literally, and call people > > Actually, I would have to agree with him that it was you doing that. You > either lied or exaggerated above as I pointed out. Deal with it. How selectively we read. He accused me of lying about using the word perfect (I didn't mean it literally) and then said my claims that ZA slowed down IE and caused some apps not to load here are either lies or exaggerated because he says so. And now because you say so... you've convinced me! Is there some benchmark you'd like me to run to prove it to you? -sb > > ___ > Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. > Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html > Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ > ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
RE: [Full-disclosure] Re: Re: PC Firewall Choices
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of Stan Bubrouski > Sent: Friday, 20 January 2006 7:51 AM > To: full-disclosure@lists.grok.org.uk > Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Re: Re: PC Firewall Choices > > > On 1/19/06, Dave Korn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Stan Bubrouski wrote in > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > As cruel as that last message was I'm sick of the ZA pros here > > > saying its perfect, its not, far from it. > > > > Since nobody has ever claimed that ZA is perfect, in > saying this you > > prove > > Yeah I didn't literally mean perfect, only that certain > people seem to argue that everyone's complaints about ZA > aren't real because they don't experience them. What proof Actually, seeing no-one actually said that, I suppose that is a pointer towards you REALLY meaning that YOU cant make the prog do something therefore no-one can. IMHO, ZA has some good points in it. As I said before, it is easy as buggery to set up and has ways to fix stuff that make lief easier. One such example in a wi-fi network that would get internet through the router but not connect to shares was a mate of mine, needing to get out quickly, simply installed ZA on each Windows machine and attempted to access shares from one machine to the next and went to that other machine and added each manually set IP to the trusted list. That got the workers through OK until he had the time (after a few days skiing) to get back and fix it all properly. Bloody XP Pro and Home mix for some reason. I like it's ability to show "I KNOW hardware firewalls are better than software ones and WONT be told anything else because *I* know - don't you?" types the logs that ZA free edition, behind their hardware firewall, picks up of whatever comes it's way through the router without even upsetting a thing there. That doesn't mean that ZA stopped everything but there are SOME things stopped and logged so it is a cause for worry for them. They think they are safe. Clearly they arent safe behind their hardware firewall and once more I say "For every so-called security professional who THINKS a hardware firewall is all you need, there is a blackhat laughing behind your back". OK that was slightly altered but it gets the point across. > could I profer here? Some flawed benchmark? A video? Why > would I bother you assume I'm lying anyways. > > > that your claims are either lies or hyperbole. If you can't argue > > with what > > So because you think that one sentence is misleading (in > retrospect 'perfect' was not a good word choice), everything > else I said must be untrue. Sigh. > > > people actually said, making up things that they didn't say is > > fatuously dishonest. > > You are the one being dishonest and the one exaggerating > here. You take something too literally, and call people Actually, I would have to agree with him that it was you doing that. You either lied or exaggerated above as I pointed out. Deal with it. ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] Re: Re: PC Firewall Choices
On 1/19/06, Dave Korn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Stan Bubrouski wrote in > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > As cruel as that last message was I'm sick of the ZA pros here saying > > its perfect, its not, far from it. > > Since nobody has ever claimed that ZA is perfect, in saying this you prove Yeah I didn't literally mean perfect, only that certain people seem to argue that everyone's complaints about ZA aren't real because they don't experience them. What proof could I profer here? Some flawed benchmark? A video? Why would I bother you assume I'm lying anyways. > that your claims are either lies or hyperbole. If you can't argue with what So because you think that one sentence is misleading (in retrospect 'perfect' was not a good word choice), everything else I said must be untrue. Sigh. > people actually said, making up things that they didn't say is fatuously > dishonest. You are the one being dishonest and the one exaggerating here. You take something too literally, and call people liars. Two machines, one with NPF one with ZA. When ZA is running on one, IE is slow, when its off its slightly faster than the machine with NPF. It's not a lie, its reality. You can fly here and come see for yourself, but you can't touch anything. I don't know where you've been. -sb > > cheers, > DaveK > -- > Can't think of a witty .sigline today Roses are Red, Violets are Blue, How much is ZA paying...YOU! > > > > ___ > Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. > Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html > Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ > ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
[Full-disclosure] Re: Re: PC Firewall Choices
Stan Bubrouski wrote in news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > As cruel as that last message was I'm sick of the ZA pros here saying > its perfect, its not, far from it. Since nobody has ever claimed that ZA is perfect, in saying this you prove that your claims are either lies or hyperbole. If you can't argue with what people actually said, making up things that they didn't say is fatuously dishonest. cheers, DaveK -- Can't think of a witty .sigline today ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
[Full-disclosure] Re: Re: PC Firewall Choices
Stan Bubrouski wrote in news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On 1/19/06, Dave Korn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> I'd like to second what Greg says. >> >> I've used ZA for years, through many changes of version. >> >> It's never forgotten its settings for me. >> It's never blocked anything it shouldn't or not blocked anything it >> should. > > Really? Do you just run notepad? I've had to remove it on several > machines because it blocked the launch of certain applications despite > there being no rules to do so. This includes (to my recollection this > was some months ago) some popular tax software updating features, > adobe acrobat plugin stoppped working within IE even though it was > configured to, and numerous other problems that couldn't be tracked to > any rules. I run a vast range of apps, including acrobat, and like I said, it's never broken anything for me. Actually, it's just occurred to me that I've only ever used the free version, and the pro version may have features in it that I haven't had a chance to use and are buggy. In which case I'd recommened upgrading to the free version. >> It's not remotely bloated compared to similar packages like anything >> Norton/Symantec/McAfee[*] > > Symantec is hugely bloated, but on a 1.2 GHz machine I have here, when > ZA is installed web browsing with IE is slowed down very noticably, > far more than average Norton System Works install causes. But have you diagnosed this problem enough to show that ZA is at fault rather than anything else? Did you do a controled experiment? Did you take identical machines with identical setups and nothing different between them except ZA on one and Norton on the other and compare them at the same time? If you haven't done a controlled experiment, then your assumption that the different behaviours you have observed on two different systems is down to one particular one of the differences between those systems - the PFW software - rather than any of the many many other differences between those systems that you haven't even considered or analyzed - is simply an unproven and unjustified assertion. >> Nor do I find a dialog such as "Should internet explorer be allowed to >> connect to the internet" at all confusing. >> > > Neither does anyone else in this thread, you just presume we're all > lusers who can't read english or configure simple software. I think you're reading too much into my words. I was expecting an answer along the lines of "No, that's perfectly clear, but /this/ one is misleading/confusing/vague". Instead, you've merely repeated your unproven assumption one more time with still no evidence to back it up. >> So I'm convinced the problem exists between chair and keyboard. >> > > Your wild assumptions that because you've never had a problem that > anyone who does must be an idiot is astounding...do you teach? No, but I'll try and teach you how not to make assumptions: Saying that "the problem exists between chair and keyboard" does not make any claim about the nature of that problem. Specifically, it does not imply that the user is an idiot. It implies nothing more than that the user did not operate the software correctly. The rest is something you imagined because you are overreacting emotively. >Try > using google you'll found thousands of ZA problems, not all imagined Well, I was actually asking _you_ to back up _your_ claims. You are the one making them, after all, so it should be for you to document or otherwise prove them. >> Can you actually back up your claims? For example, can you describe a >> simple procedure, that anyone with ZA installed could try out, that >> shows it to misbehave? Or do you have detailed notes that you took at >> the time one of these problems occurred that shows the symptoms you >> observed and the steps you took to attempt to diagnose and solve the >> problem? >> > > Having uninstalled it, deleted the executable, and wiped my free space. > No. > >> Or can we just expect to hear "No, I didn't know what was going on, I >> didn't keep proper notes, I was in a rush and just needed to get things >> working so I didn't investigate"? In which case it would be false to >> claim > > It's clearly the problem if it degrades system performance, some apps > fail to load, and all this goes away when is disabled. And who the > hell takes notes on every piece of software they install and remove > because its buggy? Please we'd all have a set of encyclopedia-sized > notes for Windows problems alone. As I have demonstrated above, not doing a controlled experiment means that your reasoning here is just an exercise in fallacious and dogmatic thinking. As to "who takes notes" on their processes and procedures, the answer is "professionals who understand the value of documentation and repeatability". >> that you knew ZA to be the cause of the problem, rather than either pilot >> error or a faulty PC or any number of other confound
