[Full-disclosure] Re: Your One-Stop Site For Sony Lawsuit Info
That's a great website but it needs to include information about how to contact the Department of Justice so that they will take Sony to court for CRIMINAL action. We need hundreds of thousands of people mailing/emailing/calling the DOJ to get it through their thick skulls that we aren't going to put up with this kind of sh*t from Sony or any other company. Anthony R. Nemmer Larry Seltzer wrote: From some law student http://www.sonysuit.com/ -- SKYKING, SKYKING, DO NOT ANSWER ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] Re: Your One-Stop Site For Sony Lawsuit Info
Anthony R. Nemmer wrote: That's a great website but it needs to include information about how to contact the Department of Justice so that they will take Sony to court for CRIMINAL action. We need hundreds of thousands of people mailing/emailing/calling the DOJ to get it through their thick skulls that we aren't going to put up with this kind of sh*t from Sony or any other company. Unfortunately, the end result of a criminal conviction for a corporation is nothing more than a fine. You can't put a corporation in prison, and there's no corporate death penalty. The only option available to the people is mob justice. Corporations can be ruined and they can be burned to the ground, but they can't be touched in a meaningful way through mechanisms of law. Corporate persons are truly first-class citizens, rising above the rest of us natural persons in importance and worth to society. Regards, Jason Coombs [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] Re: Your One-Stop Site For Sony Lawsuit Info
--On Tuesday, November 22, 2005 07:47:29 -1000 Jason Coombs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anthony R. Nemmer wrote: That's a great website but it needs to include information about how to contact the Department of Justice so that they will take Sony to court for CRIMINAL action. We need hundreds of thousands of people mailing/emailing/calling the DOJ to get it through their thick skulls that we aren't going to put up with this kind of sh*t from Sony or any other company. Unfortunately, the end result of a criminal conviction for a corporation is nothing more than a fine. You can't put a corporation in prison, and there's no corporate death penalty. The only option available to the people is mob justice. Corporations can be ruined and they can be burned to the ground, but they can't be touched in a meaningful way through mechanisms of law. Corporate persons are truly first-class citizens, rising above the rest of us natural persons in importance and worth to society. So, all those corporate execs walked out of the court house in handcuffs weren't really going to jail? Paul Schmehl ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Adjunct Information Security Officer University of Texas at Dallas AVIEN Founding Member http://www.utdallas.edu/ir/security/ ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] Re: Your One-Stop Site For Sony Lawsuit Info
Paul Schmehl wrote: So, all those corporate execs walked out of the court house in handcuffs weren't really going to jail? There's a huge difference between a financial crime committed by an individual and a crime committed by a corporation. Let me know if the distinction confuses you and we'll discuss this more privately. You are aware that not every action of a person employed by a corporation is considered an action of the individual, right? No individual programmer who writes spyware will ever be prosecuted for doing his or her job on behalf of a corporation. No exec who instructs said programmer to author said spyware will ever have personal criminal liability for giving said instruction. If you don't like the world you live in, change it or get out. Regards, Jason Coombs [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
RE: [Full-disclosure] Re: Your One-Stop Site For Sony Lawsuit Info
Hi Jason, Paul: While Jason's point may _currently_ be valid in reference to programmers, legislation like Sarbanes-Oxley is reiterating individual accountability for auditors and executives. We may see a trickle-down effect to lower level management and/or project managers if other corporations infringe on personal liberties or pull a Sony. Chris -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jason Coombs Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 12:13 PM To: Paul Schmehl Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; bugtraq@securityfocus.com; full-disclosure@lists.grok.org.uk Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Re: Your One-Stop Site For Sony Lawsuit Info Paul Schmehl wrote: So, all those corporate execs walked out of the court house in handcuffs weren't really going to jail? There's a huge difference between a financial crime committed by an individual and a crime committed by a corporation. Let me know if the distinction confuses you and we'll discuss this more privately. You are aware that not every action of a person employed by a corporation is considered an action of the individual, right? No individual programmer who writes spyware will ever be prosecuted for doing his or her job on behalf of a corporation. No exec who instructs said programmer to author said spyware will ever have personal criminal liability for giving said instruction. If you don't like the world you live in, change it or get out. Regards, Jason Coombs [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] Re: Your One-Stop Site For Sony Lawsuit Info
IANAL, but here with respect to German law: On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 09:13:26 -1000 Jason Coombs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paul Schmehl wrote: So, all those corporate execs walked out of the court house in handcuffs weren't really going to jail? Let me know if the distinction confuses you and we'll discuss this more privately. You are aware that not every action of a person employed by a corporation is considered an action of the individual, right? Wrong. It always includes personal responsibility (to a greater or lesser degree, depending on what exactly happened). If an accident or mishap happens during regular (legal!) work, it usually is on the liability of the corporation (as that is the usual risk of running an enterprise). No individual programmer who writes spyware will ever be prosecuted for doing his or her job on behalf of a corporation. At least he will get prosecuted for complicity, probably addidtionally for not reporting a crime, witholding evidence et al., too. No exec who instructs said programmer to author said spyware will ever have personal criminal liability for giving said instruction. He will - for instigation, complicity and additionally blackmailing a subordinate or ward (if the programmer's attorney is not too dumb). Maybe that personal responsibility is a late sequel to the lame Nazi excuse I did not commit a crime - I was just following Hitler's orders. here in Germany, so it might not be as strict in the USA? Bye Volker -- Volker Tangerhttp://www.wyae.de/volker.tanger/ -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]PGP Fingerprint 378A 7DA7 4F20 C2F3 5BCC 8340 7424 6122 BB83 B8CB ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
RE: [Full-disclosure] Re: Your One-Stop Site For Sony Lawsuit Info
Not just SOX. HIPAA and GLB will do the same thing. HIPAA will hold an individual practioner liable for security failures, if the corp had an acceptable plan but the implementation either never took place or was done shoddily. If the plan isn't in place, then the admins are liable - personally liable. --On Tuesday, November 22, 2005 12:20:33 -0700 Christopher Carpenter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Jason, Paul: While Jason's point may _currently_ be valid in reference to programmers, legislation like Sarbanes-Oxley is reiterating individual accountability for auditors and executives. We may see a trickle-down effect to lower level management and/or project managers if other corporations infringe on personal liberties or pull a Sony. Chris -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jason Coombs Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 12:13 PM To: Paul Schmehl Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; bugtraq@securityfocus.com; full-disclosure@lists.grok.org.uk Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Re: Your One-Stop Site For Sony Lawsuit Info Paul Schmehl wrote: So, all those corporate execs walked out of the court house in handcuffs weren't really going to jail? There's a huge difference between a financial crime committed by an individual and a crime committed by a corporation. Let me know if the distinction confuses you and we'll discuss this more privately. You are aware that not every action of a person employed by a corporation is considered an action of the individual, right? No individual programmer who writes spyware will ever be prosecuted for doing his or her job on behalf of a corporation. No exec who instructs said programmer to author said spyware will ever have personal criminal liability for giving said instruction. If you don't like the world you live in, change it or get out. Regards, Jason Coombs [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ Paul Schmehl ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Adjunct Information Security Officer University of Texas at Dallas AVIEN Founding Member http://www.utdallas.edu/ir/security/ ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] Re: Your One-Stop Site For Sony Lawsuit Info
At the risk of this discussion running far afield, I think Jason and Paul may be talking past each other. My understanding is that Jason has a point -- corporations can't suffer the same punishment as individuals. They aren't deprived of their freedom in prisons. The most common corporate punishment is a fine. Paul's point is SOX, GLBA, and HIPAA hold individuals accountable for their acts at corporations. Those two opinions are both correct, and do not contradict each other. ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] Re: Your One-Stop Site For Sony Lawsuit Info
Anonymous Squirrel wrote: At the risk of this discussion running far afield, I think Jason and Paul may be talking past each other. My understanding is that Jason has a point -- corporations can't suffer the same punishment as individuals. They aren't deprived of their freedom in prisons. The most common corporate punishment is a fine. Paul's point is SOX, GLBA, and HIPAA hold individuals accountable for their acts at corporations. Those two opinions are both correct, and do not contradict each other. This is true, and important. Nonetheless, Jason seems to be almost calling for mob justice, when he says: The only option available to the people is mob justice. Corporations can be ruined and they can be burned to the ground, but they can't be touched in a meaningful way through mechanisms of law. Corporate persons are truly first-class citizens, rising above the rest of us natural persons in importance and worth to society. Paul Schmehl is pointing out that this is false--the law can be used against corporations, to regulate the acts of corporations by making the persons who constitute their leadership personally liable in criminal court. I strongly doubt that vigilantism is an appropriate or even useful response to corporations victimizing their customers with spyware. I think that we need to start prosecuting people, and work with the law as much as we can. Vigilantism is, in this case, precisely the problem. Sony execs are pissed off at their customers violating their copyright, so they're taking the law into their own hands. This is unacceptable. Ideally, they, and anyone who fools users into installing rootkits on their systems, should be put in jail. Even if we cannot put them in jail now, because the law is to ambiguous to convict beyond reasonable doubt, the solution is to alter the law so that it can be used in this way, by passing laws to make spyware authors and execs ordering the creation and distribution of spyware more criminally liable. Sony and other companies that profit from hurting their customers want us to believe that the only way to stop them is to break the law. That defines them as legitimate and their opponents as illegitimate. When did consumer privacy advocates and activists become rebels? Society has established norms about how people are to treat one another. Executives and computer programmers at Sony have violated those norms. They are the rebel scum, and we must use the law to stop, deter, and punish them. This, along with efforts to educate the public about social, legal, and technical measures for self-defense, will be by far the most pragmatically effective way to protect the privacy and security of the rest of us natural persons. -Eliah ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] Re: Your One-Stop Site For Sony Lawsuit Info
Eliah Kagan wrote: Anonymous Squirrel wrote: At the risk of this discussion running far afield, I think Jason and Paul may be talking past each other. My understanding is that Jason has a point -- corporations can't suffer the same punishment as individuals. They aren't deprived of their freedom in prisons. The most common corporate punishment is a fine. Paul's point is SOX, GLBA, and HIPAA hold individuals accountable for their acts at corporations. Those two opinions are both correct, and do not contradict each other. This is true, and important. Nonetheless, Jason seems to be almost calling for mob justice, when he says: The only option available to the people is mob justice. Corporations can be ruined and they can be burned to the ground, but they can't be touched in a meaningful way through mechanisms of law. Corporate persons are truly first-class citizens, rising above the rest of us natural persons in importance and worth to society. Paul Schmehl is pointing out that this is false--the law can be used against corporations, to regulate the acts of corporations by making the persons who constitute their leadership personally liable in criminal court. I strongly doubt that vigilantism is an appropriate or even useful response to corporations victimizing their customers with spyware. I And yet, Jason has a deep point - corporations have more rights than citizens. There is no jail time (freezing of assets and suspension of sales, perhaps?) or death penalty (forced liquidation of assets, distribution of proceeds to bond/stock owners - outside of bankruptcy court) for them, and it's unlikely there ever will be, because they have the money. The penalties should exist and be enforced, IMHO. But this is political discussion, and perhaps not completely relevant to this forum. Kurt ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
