Re: [Full-disclosure] Save XP

[Bill Stout]

Tyler, 

You're correct.

2009 Windows Se7en RTM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_7 

2012 Vista Basic EOL http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?p1=11731
2014 XP Home xEOL http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?p1=3221
2014  XP Pro xEOL http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?p1=3223
2017 Vista Bus xEOL http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?p1=11707
2017 Vista Ent xEOL http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?p1=11737

Still, there's a big difference in lifecycle.  XP was introduced in 2001, and 
planned EOL is 2009 (eight year lifecycle).  Vista was introduced in 2007, and 
planned EOL is 2012 (five year lifecycle).  That's pretty short product 
lifecycle for a $10B* development effort.

*Ref: 
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2003460386_btview04.html

Bill Stout

- Original Message 
From: Tyler Reguly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: full-disclosure@lists.grok.org.uk
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 2:52:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Save XP

Sometimes I'm reminded of why Full Disclosure amuses me and why I stay 
subscribed


On 1/30/08, scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Yes and MS quietly extended 98 for a few more years until they came out
with 2000.A much better OS than ME at the time,IMHO.


Windows ME Release Date: Sept. 14, 2000
Windows 2000 Release Date: Feb. 17, 2000

Windows 2000 was out half a year ahead of Windows ME... so something tells me 
they didn't "quietly extend 98 for a few more years until they came out with 
2000"... even if you were talking XP (which was Oct 2001) it would be a year, 
not a few years. 



Bill: You aren't being fair with our EOL dates. You are comparing XP Pro 
(Officially a business operating system) to Vista Home Premium (a Home 
operating System)... you have to compare XP Pro to a Business version of Vista 
and when you do that you get Vista Business with an EOL of 2017 ( 
http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?p1=11707 ), 3 years after XP Pro. 


Tyler.



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Re: [Full-disclosure] Save XP

[Peter Besenbruch]

On Wednesday 30 January 2008 08:32:36 scott wrote:
> Yes and MS quietly extended 98 for a few more years until they came out
> with 2000.A much better OS than ME at the time,IMHO.

While Windows 98 SE was the best of the 9x series, I don't think anyone really 
mourned its passing (I still use it under Qemu). XP would have been hands 
down a better system except for its obnoxious copy protection. Even so, the 
stability advantages XP yielded made it a better system.

Windows 2000 and ME were released the same year (2000 first, if I remember). 
2000 was seen as an update to NT4, not 98. 2000 was the first NT OS to 
include plug and play, but the conversion from 98 to 2000 required a full 
reinstall. XP let you upgrade your Windows 9x system directly, although that 
was probably not a good idea.

If there is a "best" Windows candidate, I would vote for Windows 2000. It was 
relatively light weight, stable, and it offered minimal copy protection.
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Re: [Full-disclosure] Save XP

[Tyler Reguly]

Sometimes I'm reminded of why Full Disclosure amuses me and why I stay
subscribed

On 1/30/08, scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Yes and MS quietly extended 98 for a few more years until they came out
> with 2000.A much better OS than ME at the time,IMHO.



Windows ME Release Date: Sept. 14, 2000
Windows 2000 Release Date: Feb. 17, 2000

Windows 2000 was out half a year ahead of Windows ME... so something tells
me they didn't "quietly extend 98 for a few more years until they came out
with 2000"... even if you were talking XP (which was Oct 2001) it would be a
year, not a few years.


Bill: You aren't being fair with our EOL dates. You are comparing XP Pro
(Officially a business operating system) to Vista Home Premium (a Home
operating System)... you have to compare XP Pro to a Business version of
Vista and when you do that you get Vista Business with an EOL of 2017 (
http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?p1=11707 ), 3 years after XP Pro.


Tyler.
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Re: [Full-disclosure] Save XP

[scott]

Yes and MS quietly extended 98 for a few more years until they came out 
with 2000.A much better OS than ME at the time,IMHO.


Scott

mgk.mailing wrote:

Were there similar cry's for windows 95 / 98 in years past ?

/mgk



James Matthews wrote:

Ok signed up! I hope it works!
 
On Jan 28, 2008 9:43 PM, scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> wrote:
> For all those who believe Vista is still not up to par,you can help 
stop

> MS from forcing us to go to Vista.
>
> For those who don't know,MS is planning on stopping XP sales after 
June

> 30,2008.There are a few options for enterprise users,but Joe XP user
> will not be able to go to any store and buy a copy of XP after that
> date.Or at least after the stores sell out of what they have on hand.
>
> You can sign a petition at InfoWorld that may delay or stop MS from
> forcing us to use Vista.
>
> Sign the petition here:
> 
http://reg.itworld.com/servlet/Frs.frs?Context=LOGENTRY&Source=savexpblog080114&Source_BC=13&Script=/LP/80276783/reg&; 
 


> Maybe we can stop this.
>
> Regards,
>   Scott
>
>
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Re: [Full-disclosure] Save XP

[Dude VanWinkle]

On Jan 28, 2008 3:43 PM, scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> For all those who believe Vista is still not up to par,you can help stop
> MS from forcing us to go to Vista.
>
> For those who don't know,MS is planning on stopping XP sales after June
> 30,2008.There are a few options for enterprise users,but Joe XP user
> will not be able to go to any store and buy a copy of XP after that
> date.Or at least after the stores sell out of what they have on hand.
>
> You can sign a petition at InfoWorld that may delay or stop MS from
> forcing us to use Vista.
>
> Sign the petition here:
> http://reg.itworld.com/servlet/Frs.frs?Context=LOGENTRY&Source=savexpblog080114&Source_BC=13&Script=/LP/80276783/reg&;
> Maybe we can stop this.

You have two choices: http://thepiratebay.org/search/xp/0/99/300 or
the Chinese market ;-)

-JP

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Re: [Full-disclosure] Save XP

[mgk.mailing]

Were there similar cry's for windows 95 / 98 in years past ?

/mgk



James Matthews wrote:
> Ok signed up! I hope it works!
>  
> On Jan 28, 2008 9:43 PM, scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > wrote:
> > For all those who believe Vista is still not up to par,you can help 
> stop
> > MS from forcing us to go to Vista.
> >
> > For those who don't know,MS is planning on stopping XP sales after June
> > 30,2008.There are a few options for enterprise users,but Joe XP user
> > will not be able to go to any store and buy a copy of XP after that
> > date.Or at least after the stores sell out of what they have on hand.
> >
> > You can sign a petition at InfoWorld that may delay or stop MS from
> > forcing us to use Vista.
> >
> > Sign the petition here:
> > 
> http://reg.itworld.com/servlet/Frs.frs?Context=LOGENTRY&Source=savexpblog080114&Source_BC=13&Script=/LP/80276783/reg&;
>  
> 
>  
>
> > Maybe we can stop this.
> >
> > Regards,
> >   Scott
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> > Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
> > Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
> >
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> 
>
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Re: [Full-disclosure] Save XP

[Linval Thompson]

On Jan 28, 2008 10:45 PM, Paul Schmehl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Or, rather than trying to swim upstream, you could buy a Mac.  Or install
> *nix*
> on your Winblows computer..


That's not a good alternative.
Windows has only a single reason to exist, and that is running games, since
wine cannot run everything.
My winxp partition is labeled "Playstation"...
Unfortunately, since i like to play, i'm forced to use win for it.
And since winxp is the only "decent" windows, making microsoft continue
their only useful operating system is indeed a good purpose.
I hope i've explained my PoV of why that petition is not so bad after all...


--
LT
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Re: [Full-disclosure] Save XP

[Bill Stout]

Vista will be replaced by Windows 7, so for most corporations with a 3-year 
desktop lifecycle, it does not make sense to blend Vista with XP when Windows 7 
will come out in two-three years.
  Windows 7 on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_7
  Windows 7 screenshot: 
http://www.tgdaily.com/images/stories/article_images/windows7/windows7_1.jpg

I think Microsoft realizes this, and XP will be supported longer than Vista.  
Vista end of life is 10/4/2012, and XP support was extended to 4/12/2014.
  Vista EOL: http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?LN=en-us&p1=11712&x=9&y=14
  XP EOL: http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?LN=en-gb&x=16&y=12&C2=1173

Bill Stout



- Original Message 
From: scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: full-disclosure@lists.grok.org.uk
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 12:43:51 PM
Subject: [Full-disclosure] Save XP

For all those who believe Vista is still not up to par,you can help stop 
MS from forcing us to go to Vista.

For those who don't know,MS is planning on stopping XP sales after June 
30,2008.There are a few options for enterprise users,but Joe XP user 
will not be able to go to any store and buy a copy of XP after that 
date.Or at least after the stores sell out of what they have on hand.

You can sign a petition at InfoWorld that may delay or stop MS from 
forcing us to use Vista.

Sign the petition here: 
http://reg.itworld.com/servlet/Frs.frs?Context=LOGENTRY&Source=savexpblog080114&Source_BC=13&Script=/LP/80276783/reg&;
Maybe we can stop this.

Regards,
  Scott




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Re: [Full-disclosure] Save XP

[James Matthews]

 Ok signed up! I hope it works!

On Jan 28, 2008 9:43 PM, scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> For all those who believe Vista is still not up to par,you can help stop
> MS from forcing us to go to Vista.
>
> For those who don't know,MS is planning on stopping XP sales after June
> 30,2008.There are a few options for enterprise users,but Joe XP user
> will not be able to go to any store and buy a copy of XP after that
> date.Or at least after the stores sell out of what they have on hand.
>
> You can sign a petition at InfoWorld that may delay or stop MS from
> forcing us to use Vista.
>
> Sign the petition here:
>
http://reg.itworld.com/servlet/Frs.frs?Context=LOGENTRY&Source=savexpblog080114&Source_BC=13&Script=/LP/80276783/reg&;
> Maybe we can stop this.
>
> Regards,
>   Scott
>
>
> ___
> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>
  --
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Re: [Full-disclosure] Save XP

[blah]

While I see more *nix folks, I also see more computer savvy folks in
general, so I'm not sure the proportions have necessarily changed.

I also can count the number of "normal" (non-IT) home users using linux on 1
hand, still.  I don't see evidence of *nix making serious inroads into the
average consumer market.

On Jan 29, 2008 5:52 AM, Tremaine Lea <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> I think you'd have to admit that strength is diminishing.  I run into a
> heck of a lot more people running linux (usually Ubuntu) these days than
> I did even 5 years ago.  While Windows has been pre-eminent for a long
> time, a growing segment of people are tired of the security maintenance
> and pains that come with running it, and are willing to tolerate lapses
> in some areas if it means they aren't constantly having to worry about
> webpages and emails causing them to lose all their data and Reinstall
> Yet Again (tm)  I think there is a kind of battle weariness on the part
> of the average pc user when it comes to Windows, and getting them to try
> something new to provide a break from it is remarkably easy.
>
>
> --
> Tremaine Lea
> Network Security Consultant
> Intrepid ACL
> "Paranoia for hire"
>
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Re: [Full-disclosure] Save XP

[Peter Besenbruch]

On Tuesday 29 January 2008 02:52:12 Tremaine Lea wrote:
> I run into a heck of a lot more people running linux (usually Ubuntu) these
> days than I did even 5 years ago.

Especially since Ubuntu didn't exist five years ago. ;)

On a more serious note, it was almost five years ago to the day that I finally 
figured out how to get my home server to run Samba on Linux and have the 
other Windows machines talk to it. Indeed, the Windows clients noticed no 
difference in the network they were connected to. 

The server had been a dual boot system, and ran Windows 2000 Pro while the 
kids did their homework. I had switched my own computer to Linux the previous 
fall. Now the server switched full time to Linux, and the process of 
converting the kids' machines began.

The one constant from then to now is the use of "Windows" networking. :)

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Re: [Full-disclosure] Save XP

[Tremaine Lea]

On Tue, 2008-01-29 at 10:28 +0100, Vincent Archer wrote:



> Windows survives on the strength of its application ecosystem, not
> because of any strength in the OS itself. That's true of any system;
> except for a few fanatics, you care about what applications you run,
> not what the system under them is.

I think you'd have to admit that strength is diminishing.  I run into a
heck of a lot more people running linux (usually Ubuntu) these days than
I did even 5 years ago.  While Windows has been pre-eminent for a long
time, a growing segment of people are tired of the security maintenance
and pains that come with running it, and are willing to tolerate lapses
in some areas if it means they aren't constantly having to worry about
webpages and emails causing them to lose all their data and Reinstall
Yet Again (tm)  I think there is a kind of battle weariness on the part
of the average pc user when it comes to Windows, and getting them to try
something new to provide a break from it is remarkably easy.


-- 
Tremaine Lea
Network Security Consultant
Intrepid ACL
"Paranoia for hire"


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Re: [Full-disclosure] Save XP

[Steward Smith]

My Amiga is way better than your Atari!!!



On Tue, 2008-01-29 at 10:28 +0100, Vincent Archer wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-01-29 at 01:00 +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 18:52:37 EST, T Biehn said:
> > > Do you guys really think that any of those options are viable
> > > alternatives to windows?
> > 
> > Actually, they *are* viable alternatives to Windows for a very large 
> > percentage
> > of things that need doing...
> 
> However (unfortunately, from my PoV as well), Windows has one pretty big
> advantage on the market.
> 
[.]

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Re: [Full-disclosure] Save XP

[Vincent Archer]

On Tue, 2008-01-29 at 01:00 +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 18:52:37 EST, T Biehn said:
> > Do you guys really think that any of those options are viable
> > alternatives to windows?
> 
> Actually, they *are* viable alternatives to Windows for a very large 
> percentage
> of things that need doing...

However (unfortunately, from my PoV as well), Windows has one pretty big
advantage on the market.

A Mac OS X system is largely better for a large range of applications,
a pretty poor performing one for another, and nearly non-existant for
another segment. Ditto for Unix - most of the desktop-level applications
are semi-amateur copies of windows apps.

What Windows has for himself is that it supports every segment of
the application space, and usually does it moderately well, even if
not the best. If you're using a computer for a single thing, you
usually have better stuff out there, be it a game console, a racked
server, or something else. If you're using your computer for a whole
slew of various applications (doing some office tasks, picture/video
editing, games...), then choosing Windows means you're going to find
all your application needs on the same system. Which, even if some
are underperforming, means probably more comfort overall.

Windows survives on the strength of its application ecosystem, not
because of any strength in the OS itself. That's true of any system;
except for a few fanatics, you care about what applications you run,
not what the system under them is.

-- 
Vincent Archer

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Re: [Full-disclosure] Save XP

[T Biehn]

Valdis,
This was the joke.
:.) it's cool however!


On Jan 28, 2008 7:00 PM,  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 18:52:37 EST, T Biehn said:
> > Do you guys really think that any of those options are viable
> > alternatives to windows?
>
> Actually, they *are* viable alternatives to Windows for a very large 
> percentage
> of things that need doing...
>
> > No wonder you don't score management jobs!
>
> Actually, a large part of the industry-wide security problem is that the
> people who *did* score management jobs are people who say "Do you guys really
> think any of those options are viable alternatives to windows?".
>

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Re: [Full-disclosure] Save XP

[dxp]

If you have any concrete arguments in defense of Windows based operating
systems as opposed to available alternatives please state them and it
will make a worthwhile discussion.

On Mon, 2008-01-28 at 18:52 -0500, T Biehn wrote:

> Do you guys really think that any of those options are viable
> alternatives to windows?
> No wonder you don't score management jobs!
> 
> On Jan 28, 2008 5:45 PM, Paul Schmehl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > --On Monday, January 28, 2008 15:43:51 -0500 scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> > > For all those who believe Vista is still not up to par,you can help stop 
> > > MS
> > > from forcing us to go to Vista.
> > >
> > > For those who don't know,MS is planning on stopping XP sales after June
> > > 30,2008.There are a few options for enterprise users,but Joe XP user will 
> > > not
> > > be able to go to any store and buy a copy of XP after that date.Or at 
> > > least
> > > after the stores sell out of what they have on hand.
> > >
> > > You can sign a petition at InfoWorld that may delay or stop MS from 
> > > forcing
> > > us to use Vista.
> > >
> > > Sign the petition here:
> > > http://reg.itworld.com/servlet/Frs.frs?Context=LOGENTRY&Source=savexpblog0801
> > > 14&Source_BC=13&Script=/LP/80276783/reg&
> > > Maybe we can stop this.
> > >
> >
> > Or, rather than trying to swim upstream, you could buy a Mac.  Or install 
> > *nix*
> > on your Winblows computer..
> >
> > --
> > Paul Schmehl ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
> > Senior Information Security Analyst
> > The University of Texas at Dallas
> > http://www.utdallas.edu/ir/security/
> >
> >
> > ___
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> 
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-- 

-=[ dxp ]=-
0xA3F3C6E3


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Re: [Full-disclosure] Save XP

[Larry Seltzer]

One more thing. Nobody is forcing you go buy Vista. Believe it or not,
you have alternatives in the market. If Vista sucks so badly in your
mind, go buy something else.

Larry Seltzer
eWEEK.com Security Center Editor
http://security.eweek.com/
http://blogs.pcmag.com/securitywatch/
Contributing Editor, PC Magazine
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [Full-disclosure] Save XP

[Valdis . Kletnieks]

On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 18:52:37 EST, T Biehn said:
> Do you guys really think that any of those options are viable
> alternatives to windows?

Actually, they *are* viable alternatives to Windows for a very large percentage
of things that need doing...

> No wonder you don't score management jobs!

Actually, a large part of the industry-wide security problem is that the
people who *did* score management jobs are people who say "Do you guys really
think any of those options are viable alternatives to windows?".


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Re: [Full-disclosure] Save XP

[T Biehn]

Do you guys really think that any of those options are viable
alternatives to windows?
No wonder you don't score management jobs!

On Jan 28, 2008 5:45 PM, Paul Schmehl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --On Monday, January 28, 2008 15:43:51 -0500 scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
>
> > For all those who believe Vista is still not up to par,you can help stop MS
> > from forcing us to go to Vista.
> >
> > For those who don't know,MS is planning on stopping XP sales after June
> > 30,2008.There are a few options for enterprise users,but Joe XP user will 
> > not
> > be able to go to any store and buy a copy of XP after that date.Or at least
> > after the stores sell out of what they have on hand.
> >
> > You can sign a petition at InfoWorld that may delay or stop MS from forcing
> > us to use Vista.
> >
> > Sign the petition here:
> > http://reg.itworld.com/servlet/Frs.frs?Context=LOGENTRY&Source=savexpblog0801
> > 14&Source_BC=13&Script=/LP/80276783/reg&
> > Maybe we can stop this.
> >
>
> Or, rather than trying to swim upstream, you could buy a Mac.  Or install 
> *nix*
> on your Winblows computer..
>
> --
> Paul Schmehl ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
> Senior Information Security Analyst
> The University of Texas at Dallas
> http://www.utdallas.edu/ir/security/
>
>
> ___
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>

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Re: [Full-disclosure] Save XP

[Paul Schmehl]

--On Monday, January 28, 2008 15:43:51 -0500 scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:

> For all those who believe Vista is still not up to par,you can help stop MS
> from forcing us to go to Vista.
>
> For those who don't know,MS is planning on stopping XP sales after June
> 30,2008.There are a few options for enterprise users,but Joe XP user will not
> be able to go to any store and buy a copy of XP after that date.Or at least
> after the stores sell out of what they have on hand.
>
> You can sign a petition at InfoWorld that may delay or stop MS from forcing
> us to use Vista.
>
> Sign the petition here:
> http://reg.itworld.com/servlet/Frs.frs?Context=LOGENTRY&Source=savexpblog0801
> 14&Source_BC=13&Script=/LP/80276783/reg&
> Maybe we can stop this.
>

Or, rather than trying to swim upstream, you could buy a Mac.  Or install *nix* 
on your Winblows computer..

-- 
Paul Schmehl ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Senior Information Security Analyst
The University of Texas at Dallas
http://www.utdallas.edu/ir/security/

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Re: [Full-disclosure] Save XP

[Ed Carp]

On Jan 28, 2008 2:43 PM, scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> For those who don't know,MS is planning on stopping XP sales after June
> 30,2008.There are a few options for enterprise users,but Joe XP user
> will not be able to go to any store and buy a copy of XP after that
> date.Or at least after the stores sell out of what they have on hand.

Or you can move to either Linux or one of the other free operating
systems, or you can go buy a Mac.  Plenty of options out there.

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Re: [Full-disclosure] Save XP

[Peter Dawson]

On Jan 28, 2008 3:43 PM, scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> For all those who believe Vista is still not up to par,you can help stop
> MS from forcing us to go to Vista.
> 
> buy a copy of XP after that date.


who cares really ??  the user will just go to some joker who will install a
version for $25/-

/pd
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Re: [Full-disclosure] Save XP

[Larry Seltzer]

>>MS is planning on stopping XP sales after June 30,2008. 

Why don't you start hoarding copies now? Come July you'll run the
market! Ha ha ha!

Larry Seltzer
eWEEK.com Security Center Editor
http://security.eweek.com/
http://blogs.pcmag.com/securitywatch/
Contributing Editor, PC Magazine
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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[Full-disclosure] Save XP

[scott]

For all those who believe Vista is still not up to par,you can help stop 
MS from forcing us to go to Vista.


For those who don't know,MS is planning on stopping XP sales after June 
30,2008.There are a few options for enterprise users,but Joe XP user 
will not be able to go to any store and buy a copy of XP after that 
date.Or at least after the stores sell out of what they have on hand.


You can sign a petition at InfoWorld that may delay or stop MS from 
forcing us to use Vista.


Sign the petition here: 
http://reg.itworld.com/servlet/Frs.frs?Context=LOGENTRY&Source=savexpblog080114&Source_BC=13&Script=/LP/80276783/reg&;

Maybe we can stop this.

Regards,
  Scott



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