Re: [Full-disclosure] Snail mail vs. Email
On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 1:34 PM, Kurt Buff wrote: > On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 22:11, Jeffrey Walton wrote: >> Sparta, as one of the first democracies, had it right. They put the >> public officials on trial when their term expired because they knew >> what Class A fuck-ups they were. Its funny how that lesson was lost to >> history. > > Sparta in the Classical age and earlier was not a democracy. They were > a set of invaders who had enslaved the native Hellenes in the area (as > opposed to buying slaves or capturing slaves in battle, which is what > the other Hellenic city-states did), and which had kings and enforced > military servitude from approximately ages 8 to 50 or so. And, > actually, Athens, though it was the Western birthplace of democracy, > free speech and all that, wasn't a very pretty society itself. Aside > from the primitive state of technology, they were a religion- and > superstition-bound society to a degree that most modern cultures would > have difficulty comprehending. I agree with the hypocrisy, and much hasn't changed with the superstition/religion bound society (the best I can tell). http://www.google.com/?q=early+democracies. > Not something I think we should emulate. Unfortunately, we are emulating those past invaders (at least in the middle east). Jeff ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] Snail mail vs. Email
On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 22:11, Jeffrey Walton wrote: > Sparta, as one of the first democracies, had it right. They put the > public officials on trial when their term expired because they knew > what Class A fuck-ups they were. Its funny how that lesson was lost to > history. > > Jeff Sparta in the Classical age and earlier was not a democracy. They were a set of invaders who had enslaved the native Hellenes in the area (as opposed to buying slaves or capturing slaves in battle, which is what the other Hellenic city-states did), and which had kings and enforced military servitude from approximately ages 8 to 50 or so. And, actually, Athens, though it was the Western birthplace of democracy, free speech and all that, wasn't a very pretty society itself. Aside from the primitive state of technology, they were a religion- and superstition-bound society to a degree that most modern cultures would have difficulty comprehending. Not something I think we should emulate. Kurt ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] Snail mail vs. Email
On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 10:49 PM, Laurelai wrote: > On 10/12/2011 3:23 PM, Jeffrey Walton wrote: >> >> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 4:09 PM, Laurelai wrote: >>> >>> On 10/12/2011 1:26 PM, Daniel Sichel wrote: > [SNIP] I work in the phone business and we have CALEA requirements which supposedly allows law enforcement to carry out their sanctioned wire taps anonymously to protect suspects' right to privacy. I may be wrong, but it seems pretty abusable (if that's a word) to me. I do NOT want that on the Internet. >>> >>> Right and the way to stop that is to require a warrant and a paper >>> trail, if someone serves a warrant at your home you get a copy of the >>> warrant and you can ensure they only get exactly what the warrant states >>> and *nothing more* these warantless email seizures have no such limits >>> or accountability.they can literally come in and take copies of all your >>> emails and you will never know about it, and they can do it for >>> practically any reason, if you encrypt your email they will just demand >>> they keys/passwords with a court order and you can't really fight it >>> without spending time in jail, the US Gov simply doesn't have enough >>> accountability or transparency, that's why we *need* more legal >>> protections, if cops kick down your door without a warrant then anything >>> they find rightfully cant be used as evidence, the same thing should >>> apply to electronic communications. >> >> In the US, we have the legal protections (on paper). The laws are not >> enforced; the checks are balances are lacking; and there is no >> accountatbility for public officials. >> >> There's not a lot we can do when a public official disregards the law, >> and subsequently goes unpunished. The ACLU and EFF do a great job, but >> until public officials spend time imprisoned for their actions, >> nothing will change. > > That is a good point Jeff, all the more reason to push for change and > reform. Sparta, as one of the first democracies, had it right. They put the public officials on trial when their term expired because they knew what Class A fuck-ups they were. Its funny how that lesson was lost to history. Jeff ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] Snail mail vs. Email
On 10/12/2011 3:23 PM, Jeffrey Walton wrote: > On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 4:09 PM, Laurelai wrote: >> On 10/12/2011 1:26 PM, Daniel Sichel wrote: Well there is no push to make snail-mail encrypted and lets face it >>> most peoples mailboxes don't have any sort of locking mechanisms and is available to anyone with two hands and the malicious intent to steal someones mail however the US Gov needs a warrant to intercept your physical mail, why does it being online somehow make it different? >>> What makes it different (and this is just me speaking, I don't really >>> know how others >>> feel or what current political thinking is on this)is that the internet >>> represents a new, >>> unregulated medium that can redefine some traditional standards and ways >>> of doing >>> Things in order to do them better. For me, as a conservative, less >>> regulation an more personal responsibility is better. >>> >>> I will say something probably a bit unusual, especially these days, >>> reasonable men may differ on this view. A very credible argument for >>> regulation can be made, I just keep coming back the reality that >>> virtually every regulated medium of communication becomes a point of >>> control. To shamelessly steal and warp a phrase, "The power to regulate >>> is the power to destroy." >>> >>> I would prefer to be responsible for my own privacy and pit my skills >>> against the Feds at keeping it that way rather than "trust" them not to >>> abuse their access to my "protected" email. >>> >>> I work in the phone business and we have CALEA requirements which >>> supposedly allows law enforcement to carry out their sanctioned wire >>> taps anonymously to protect suspects' right to privacy. I may be wrong, >>> but it seems pretty abusable (if that's a word) to me. I do NOT want >>> that on the Internet. >> Right and the way to stop that is to require a warrant and a paper >> trail, if someone serves a warrant at your home you get a copy of the >> warrant and you can ensure they only get exactly what the warrant states >> and *nothing more* these warantless email seizures have no such limits >> or accountability.they can literally come in and take copies of all your >> emails and you will never know about it, and they can do it for >> practically any reason, if you encrypt your email they will just demand >> they keys/passwords with a court order and you can't really fight it >> without spending time in jail, the US Gov simply doesn't have enough >> accountability or transparency, that's why we *need* more legal >> protections, if cops kick down your door without a warrant then anything >> they find rightfully cant be used as evidence, the same thing should >> apply to electronic communications. > In the US, we have the legal protections (on paper). The laws are not > enforced; the checks are balances are lacking; and there is no > accountatbility for public officials. > > There's not a lot we can do when a public official disregards the law, > and subsequently goes unpunished. The ACLU and EFF do a great job, but > until public officials spend time imprisoned for their actions, > nothing will change. > > Jeff That is a good point Jeff, all the more reason to push for change and reform. ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] Snail mail vs. Email
On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 4:09 PM, Laurelai wrote: > On 10/12/2011 1:26 PM, Daniel Sichel wrote: >>> Well there is no push to make snail-mail encrypted and lets face it >> most >>> peoples mailboxes don't have any sort of locking mechanisms and is >>> available to anyone with two hands and the malicious intent to steal >>> someones mail however the US Gov needs a warrant to intercept your >>> physical mail, why does it being online somehow make it different? >> What makes it different (and this is just me speaking, I don't really >> know how others >> feel or what current political thinking is on this)is that the internet >> represents a new, >> unregulated medium that can redefine some traditional standards and ways >> of doing >> Things in order to do them better. For me, as a conservative, less >> regulation an more personal responsibility is better. >> >> I will say something probably a bit unusual, especially these days, >> reasonable men may differ on this view. A very credible argument for >> regulation can be made, I just keep coming back the reality that >> virtually every regulated medium of communication becomes a point of >> control. To shamelessly steal and warp a phrase, "The power to regulate >> is the power to destroy." >> >> I would prefer to be responsible for my own privacy and pit my skills >> against the Feds at keeping it that way rather than "trust" them not to >> abuse their access to my "protected" email. >> >> I work in the phone business and we have CALEA requirements which >> supposedly allows law enforcement to carry out their sanctioned wire >> taps anonymously to protect suspects' right to privacy. I may be wrong, >> but it seems pretty abusable (if that's a word) to me. I do NOT want >> that on the Internet. > Right and the way to stop that is to require a warrant and a paper > trail, if someone serves a warrant at your home you get a copy of the > warrant and you can ensure they only get exactly what the warrant states > and *nothing more* these warantless email seizures have no such limits > or accountability.they can literally come in and take copies of all your > emails and you will never know about it, and they can do it for > practically any reason, if you encrypt your email they will just demand > they keys/passwords with a court order and you can't really fight it > without spending time in jail, the US Gov simply doesn't have enough > accountability or transparency, that's why we *need* more legal > protections, if cops kick down your door without a warrant then anything > they find rightfully cant be used as evidence, the same thing should > apply to electronic communications. In the US, we have the legal protections (on paper). The laws are not enforced; the checks are balances are lacking; and there is no accountatbility for public officials. There's not a lot we can do when a public official disregards the law, and subsequently goes unpunished. The ACLU and EFF do a great job, but until public officials spend time imprisoned for their actions, nothing will change. Jeff ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] Snail mail vs. Email
On 10/12/2011 1:26 PM, Daniel Sichel wrote: >> Well there is no push to make snail-mail encrypted and lets face it > most >> peoples mailboxes don't have any sort of locking mechanisms and is >> available to anyone with two hands and the malicious intent to steal >> someones mail however the US Gov needs a warrant to intercept your >> physical mail, why does it being online somehow make it different? > What makes it different (and this is just me speaking, I don't really > know how others > feel or what current political thinking is on this)is that the internet > represents a new, > unregulated medium that can redefine some traditional standards and ways > of doing > Things in order to do them better. For me, as a conservative, less > regulation an more personal responsibility is better. > > I will say something probably a bit unusual, especially these days, > reasonable men may differ on this view. A very credible argument for > regulation can be made, I just keep coming back the reality that > virtually every regulated medium of communication becomes a point of > control. To shamelessly steal and warp a phrase, "The power to regulate > is the power to destroy." > > I would prefer to be responsible for my own privacy and pit my skills > against the Feds at keeping it that way rather than "trust" them not to > abuse their access to my "protected" email. > > I work in the phone business and we have CALEA requirements which > supposedly allows law enforcement to carry out their sanctioned wire > taps anonymously to protect suspects' right to privacy. I may be wrong, > but it seems pretty abusable (if that's a word) to me. I do NOT want > that on the Internet. > > Cheers, > Dan Sichel > > > > ___ > Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. > Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html > Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ Right and the way to stop that is to require a warrant and a paper trail, if someone serves a warrant at your home you get a copy of the warrant and you can ensure they only get exactly what the warrant states and *nothing more* these warantless email seizures have no such limits or accountability.they can literally come in and take copies of all your emails and you will never know about it, and they can do it for practically any reason, if you encrypt your email they will just demand they keys/passwords with a court order and you can't really fight it without spending time in jail, the US Gov simply doesn't have enough accountability or transparency, that's why we *need* more legal protections, if cops kick down your door without a warrant then anything they find rightfully cant be used as evidence, the same thing should apply to electronic communications. ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
[Full-disclosure] Snail mail vs. Email
>Well there is no push to make snail-mail encrypted and lets face it most >peoples mailboxes don't have any sort of locking mechanisms and is >available to anyone with two hands and the malicious intent to steal >someones mail however the US Gov needs a warrant to intercept your >physical mail, why does it being online somehow make it different? What makes it different (and this is just me speaking, I don't really know how others feel or what current political thinking is on this)is that the internet represents a new, unregulated medium that can redefine some traditional standards and ways of doing Things in order to do them better. For me, as a conservative, less regulation an more personal responsibility is better. I will say something probably a bit unusual, especially these days, reasonable men may differ on this view. A very credible argument for regulation can be made, I just keep coming back the reality that virtually every regulated medium of communication becomes a point of control. To shamelessly steal and warp a phrase, "The power to regulate is the power to destroy." I would prefer to be responsible for my own privacy and pit my skills against the Feds at keeping it that way rather than "trust" them not to abuse their access to my "protected" email. I work in the phone business and we have CALEA requirements which supposedly allows law enforcement to carry out their sanctioned wire taps anonymously to protect suspects' right to privacy. I may be wrong, but it seems pretty abusable (if that's a word) to me. I do NOT want that on the Internet. Cheers, Dan Sichel ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
