Re: [Full-disclosure] authentic hackers still do it for the love ... (was: Hell Camp: It never pays enough)
Hi folks! Just wanted to say that it IS possible to make good money and have fun breaking security. Lots of security researchers out there are offered very generous positions which sometimes allows them to work from home. In many of these positions the researcher chooses what to break, and the employer is OK with that since they also get good publicity for publishing the findings anyways. In short, it IS possible to have fun while working and make very good money. Does that mean you're not a hacker anymore? I don't think so! What it means is that you're clever since you managed to do what you like, legally, and get paid very good money for breaking toys just like you used to do when you were a child. Regards, AP. On Dec 2, 2007 7:35 PM, James Matthews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Correct there must be a separation between work and play! But playing will always be fun! On Dec 2, 2007 8:29 PM, coderman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 2, 2007 5:47 PM, jf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... something southern baptists ... You're doing it wrong. oh well, i checked monster.com and my ruse didn't work. no employeee exodus, no new signing bonus, and here i thought you'd all send email notice on a pleasant saturday afternoon. guess i'll have to pay for that CISSP after all... [tell you what jf and pdp, i'd be more curious to know how you cultivated that job that isn't yet pays well than continuing this thread before it spirals further into inanity...] ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ -- http://search.goldwatches.com/?Search=Movado+Watches http://www.jewelerslounge.com http://www.goldwatches.com ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ -- pagvac gnucitizen.org, ikwt.com ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] authentic hackers still do it for the love ... (was: Hell Camp: It never pays enough)
right, this is what I like to call hacker romanticism, but do you know what? it does not work this way! only in the movies, I guess! so if you are a hacker, if you truly believe that you are a hacker, then you will find a way to be better off then anybody else without the need to break any laws and without compromising your passions at all. there is one very old Chinese saying: find a job that you love and you will never work for the rest of your life. Being a technically talented person and spending your life as a poor sysadmin is plain stupid not to say completely unnecessary. Running away from money because you think that they will corrupt you or they will compromise your identity is also quite retarded to say, don't you think? money are just means to an end, a tool of trade, and sometimes this is exactly what you need in order to cross to the next level. hacking is not about the inner geek and the vision of the lonely cyber worrier. hacking is about outsmarting others. it is about thinking creatively and moreover, thinking differently. if you can hack computer systems, then hack life. you will soon realize the the skills that you have obtained while being a technical hacker can be applied to many other disciplines, and these skills are more valuable then you think. collecting the fruits of your work is the most rewarding feeling. the problem I see is that hacking has become something that is not. the computer security hacker circles lost the sense of creativity and turned it into plain procedure. most, if not all, of the security vulnerabilities discovered today are discovered due to simple rules. you do this, you run that, you wait, you've got it. this is not hacking. given enough time, anybody can learn that. but embracing the mindset is something that a few can do. btw, GC is currently running a project to show the reality of what I've juts said. it is still in very initial stage but it will get better with the time: hakiri.com On Dec 2, 2007 6:28 AM, coderman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 1, 2007 9:12 PM, Goebbels Amadeus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... Have you ever considered your future in their hands? You've been working for 50 years, your liver and kidneys start failing, creating visible symptoms, stains in your skin. You can't handle life in the same way anymore. For what? What have you done in those 50 years but serving another man to become more wealthy and over powered. The approaching day of your death and its mere vision strikes you like a burning iron blade. ... talented youth started emerging and dedicated passionately to fulfill its curiosity. Day after day, spending countless hours in front of a machine. Understanding it's inner design and details, breaking it apart and reassembling it the way it wasn't meant to be assembled. [a parable of looking for filthy lucre in a trade of love, only to to discover that these dark funds have tainted the joy and purity of a process and lifestyle that once brought fulfillment] sooner or later every authentic hacker discovers that you must separate work from play. when you try and mix them both you betray the joy and fulfillment of hacking for a paycheck, and it never pays enough. the ability of a person to deny and downplay this reality will determine their ability to abide the infosecwhore industry. as captain of their own independent ship they can insulate themselves from much of this whoreish taint, but sooner or later a labor for lucre will destroy the love. no need to preach, the authentic hacker will discover this on their own accord sooner or later. it is inevitable. for those of you on the cusp of this realization and ready to start anew, do it. abandon ship. find a comfy admin or analyst position with decent benefits and a wage that pays the mortgage. adopt that pseudonym and rediscover the joy of hacking for its own sake. the rewards are still there, worth more than a dollar can provide... --- as with any broad categorization there are exceptions to this rule. there is a minuscule minority that has found an amalgamation sufficiently lucrative and deeply enjoyable without compromising on any personal integrity. to these people i say: you lucky fucks! may i find such fortune one day... ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ -- pdp (architect) | petko d. petkov http://www.gnucitizen.org ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] authentic hackers still do it for the love ... (was: Hell Camp: It never pays enough)
On Dec 2, 2007 12:48 AM, pdp (architect) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... you will find a way to be better off then anybody else without the need to break any laws .. what does breaking the law have to do with this? there is one very old Chinese saying: find a job that you love and you will never work for the rest of your life. sure. it takes a while to get there, don't you think? Being a technically talented person and spending your life as a poor sysadmin is plain stupid not to say completely unnecessary. Running away from money because you think that they will corrupt you or they will compromise your identity is also quite retarded to say, don't you think? money are just means to an end, a tool of trade, and sometimes this is exactly what you need in order to cross to the next level. agreed. perhaps i should have emphasized a path out, rather than destination... the problem I see is that hacking has become something that is not. the computer security hacker circles lost the sense of creativity and turned it into plain procedure. most, if not all, of the security vulnerabilities discovered today are discovered due to simple rules. you do this, you run that, you wait, you've got it. this is not hacking. given enough time, anybody can learn that. but embracing the mindset is something that a few can do. this is what i suggested escaping, the mechanical substitute for what used to be a creative and passionate endeavor. escape from it, leave the mechanical to something that pays the bills until you can find and enjoy the job you love where you never work another day in your life... if you can do this while mired in infosec whorey, more power to you. the admin / routine positions seem more accommodating to telecommute, flexible schedule, and free time while giving the appearance of working. btw, GC is currently running a project to show the reality of what I've juts said. it is still in very initial stage but it will get better with the time: hakiri.com i'm watching and waiting... ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] authentic hackers still do it for the love ... (was: Hell Camp: It never pays enough)
On Dec 2, 2007 1:27 AM, coderman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... admin / routine positions seem more accommodating to telecommute, flexible schedule, and free time while giving the appearance of working. i completely forgot to mention lack of non compete, intellectual property agreements, and other legal bullshit that par for the infosecwhore course... ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] authentic hackers still do it for the love ... (was: Hell Camp: It never pays enough)
sooner or later every authentic hacker discovers that you must separate work from play. I really wish everyone would stop projecting their own world views and insisting that in order for person A to be X you simply have to come to the same conclusions and hold the same sets of beliefs that person B did. In this case the noun is hacker, but the same concept is fairly universal and happens a lot in politics as well. Here is the simple truth, there is no underlying outlook, background, dogma or set of ethics that define hacking. The only theme that applies across the board is breaking computer security. Everything else that you tie into the word is the projection of your own beliefs, which is fine, I don't care what you believe, but don't pretend to speak for me or to know what I'm thinking, in other words, don't put your shit on me (or anyone else). To sum up the point, let's say that you're I dunno southern baptist, you don't presume that everyone else in the scene is also southern baptists, so why do you presume to know my (or anyones) motives, ambitions, et cetera? when you try and mix them both you betray the joy and fulfillment of hacking for a paycheck, and it never pays enough. You're doing it wrong. ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] authentic hackers still do it for the love ... (was: Hell Camp: It never pays enough)
On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 01:47:11 GMT, jf said: Here is the simple truth, there is no underlying outlook, background, dogma or set of ethics that define hacking. The only theme that applies across the board is breaking computer security. And there's still a few hold-outs that don't agree with *that* theme either, because hacking had a different meaning back in the Elder Days. Of course, English is a living language, and terms like hacker and 0-day get redefined, despite our best efforts at preventing it. pgpaKyFCe3Mln.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] authentic hackers still do it for the love ... (was: Hell Camp: It never pays enough)
On Dec 2, 2007 5:47 PM, jf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... something southern baptists ... You're doing it wrong. oh well, i checked monster.com and my ruse didn't work. no employeee exodus, no new signing bonus, and here i thought you'd all send email notice on a pleasant saturday afternoon. guess i'll have to pay for that CISSP after all... [tell you what jf and pdp, i'd be more curious to know how you cultivated that job that isn't yet pays well than continuing this thread before it spirals further into inanity...] ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] authentic hackers still do it for the love ... (was: Hell Camp: It never pays enough)
Correct there must be a separation between work and play! But playing will always be fun! On Dec 2, 2007 8:29 PM, coderman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 2, 2007 5:47 PM, jf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... something southern baptists ... You're doing it wrong. oh well, i checked monster.com and my ruse didn't work. no employeee exodus, no new signing bonus, and here i thought you'd all send email notice on a pleasant saturday afternoon. guess i'll have to pay for that CISSP after all... [tell you what jf and pdp, i'd be more curious to know how you cultivated that job that isn't yet pays well than continuing this thread before it spirals further into inanity...] ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ -- http://search.goldwatches.com/?Search=Movado+Watches http://www.jewelerslounge.com http://www.goldwatches.com ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Re: [Full-disclosure] authentic hackers still do it for the love ... (was: Hell Camp: It never pays enough)
On Dec 1, 2007 9:12 PM, Goebbels Amadeus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... Have you ever considered your future in their hands? You've been working for 50 years, your liver and kidneys start failing, creating visible symptoms, stains in your skin. You can't handle life in the same way anymore. For what? What have you done in those 50 years but serving another man to become more wealthy and over powered. The approaching day of your death and its mere vision strikes you like a burning iron blade. ... talented youth started emerging and dedicated passionately to fulfill its curiosity. Day after day, spending countless hours in front of a machine. Understanding it's inner design and details, breaking it apart and reassembling it the way it wasn't meant to be assembled. [a parable of looking for filthy lucre in a trade of love, only to to discover that these dark funds have tainted the joy and purity of a process and lifestyle that once brought fulfillment] sooner or later every authentic hacker discovers that you must separate work from play. when you try and mix them both you betray the joy and fulfillment of hacking for a paycheck, and it never pays enough. the ability of a person to deny and downplay this reality will determine their ability to abide the infosecwhore industry. as captain of their own independent ship they can insulate themselves from much of this whoreish taint, but sooner or later a labor for lucre will destroy the love. no need to preach, the authentic hacker will discover this on their own accord sooner or later. it is inevitable. for those of you on the cusp of this realization and ready to start anew, do it. abandon ship. find a comfy admin or analyst position with decent benefits and a wage that pays the mortgage. adopt that pseudonym and rediscover the joy of hacking for its own sake. the rewards are still there, worth more than a dollar can provide... --- as with any broad categorization there are exceptions to this rule. there is a minuscule minority that has found an amalgamation sufficiently lucrative and deeply enjoyable without compromising on any personal integrity. to these people i say: you lucky fucks! may i find such fortune one day... ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
