RE: !SPAM! RE: [OT] Re: [Full-Disclosure] lame bitching about xpsp2
The hardware is warranted, which was the requirement - there was no mention of supporting the OS as well. YY -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Esler, Joel - Contractor Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 20:42 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: !SPAM! RE: [OT] Re: [Full-Disclosure] lame bitching about xpsp2 Actually the website says: Dell does not officially support running Linux on Dell laptops, Although, as there are relatively fewer gotchas associated with Linux running on desktops as compared to laptops, installing Linux should be a fairly straight-forward task. If you quote, quote the whole thought. J -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barry Fitzgerald Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 1:28 PM To: KF_lists Cc: joe; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [OT] Re: [Full-Disclosure] lame bitching about xpsp2 KF_lists wrote: OK - put your money where your mouth is. Pretend I'm a consumer. I have 2000 USD to spend and want a good PC with a good warranty with GNU/Linux on it. Find me a link to a major OEM that will ship me a PC within those specs with decent hardware and a generally recognized name (Dell, Gateway, HP, IBM...). The PC must be listed as a desktop system and must be easy to find. That's your assignment. That's the way that you can prove your point, and it's the only way. If the situation is as you claim it is, that should take you no less than 3 minutes. The clock is ticking... Took me all of about 30 seconds... http://linux.dell.com/desktops.shtml -KF From the site: Dell does not officially support running Linux on Dell desktops. Try again -- this didn't meet my criteria and thus would not be available for an average user. No warranty and no support turns this into a no-go for Ma and Pa Kettle. -Barry ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html
RE: !SPAM! Re: [OT] Re: [Full-Disclosure] lame bitching about xpsp2
Important: From which direction is the wind coming? ;-) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of KF_lists Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 01:53 To: Invicticide X Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: !SPAM! Re: [OT] Re: [Full-Disclosure] lame bitching about xpsp2 /me Pees again and goes away... enjoy the rest of the thread fellas.. the pissing match is in full effect. -KF Invicticide X wrote: Apparently that 30 seconds did not include reading the page you linked to. Sure it did. I read it just fine... I believe you are the one that missed the paragraph stating: Currently, all Dell N-Series Precision Workstation desktops are available and supported with Red Hat Linux. You are correct though that it is NOT supported on Desktops and Laptops . And you're the one who missed the orinial line in Barry's spec which stated: The PC must be listed as a desktop system and must be easy to find. Desktops are not supported. He also said as a consumer, which I would imagine to be an individual, who most likely wouldn't be going for a corporate workstation, or buying 50+ machines (with regard to your linked article). ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html
Re: [OT] Re: [Full-Disclosure] lame bitching about xpsp2
On Wednesday 18 August 2004 23:51, KF_lists wrote: Apparently that 30 seconds did not include reading the page you linked to. Sure it did. I read it just fine... I believe you are the one that missed the paragraph stating: Currently, all Dell N-Series Precision Workstation desktops are available and supported with Red Hat Linux. You are correct though that it is NOT supported on Desktops and Laptops . Old news, no longer valid. Check out HP (URL wrapped): http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/ WF05a/321957-64295-89315-321838-f33-395654.html Linux (Novell/SuSE) preinstalled on HP nx5000 laptop... Maarten -- Yes of course I'm sure it's the red cable. I guarante[^%!/+)F#0c|'NO CARRIER ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html
Re: [OT] Re: [Full-Disclosure] lame bitching about xpsp2
joe wrote: Since you cut out every piece that had anything to do remotely with this list, I will respond very briefly and then fail to respond to any more list posts on this from you unless you come back to the subject of security and away from OSS vs proprietary code. Hey - you've had at least 5 or 6 more OT posts in this thread than I have, buddy. Don't try to turn this on me. I deleted the on-topic portion because I have no comment on it and generally agree with you. I'm not interested in arguing with you on that. Nor have I, during this entire thread, argued those points. What I have done is try to dispell disinformation. At least I had the decency to add an [OT] to the subject line, unlike yourself. I am not going to do your shopping for you. I will let you go ahead and type linux in the search box at Dell and look at what your options are. Last time I looked a couple of weeks ago for my brother, the lowest priced Linux machine was something like the 370 or something like that for $900 or so. Walmart (world's largest retailer, sorry it doesn't fit your definition of who should sell a computer) has Linux PCs for like $300. PCs without any OS for like $225, again it has been a few weeks since I looked though. As for IBM, no clue what is on their site. Wouldn't buy anything from them, over priced with crappy quality. If you can't find a Linux PC from IBM though I find that humorous considering IBM's public stance on Linux... I don't need my shopping done for me. I just bought a new system online without a hard drive/OS last weekend. I can shop just fine for myself. The point was you proving your argument. You can't do that and so you shirk the responsibility by saying I'm not going to do your shopping for you... That's a lame excuse and you lost. There is nothing in the world I can say to convince you about others' stances on GNU. I don't really care to try. It is simply another religious point for you. Ironically, if you knew me, you'd know that this is not a religious point with me. This is pure fact and analysis. As to your entire argument about it, your wrong. Note I previously said I wouldn't use GNU, I haven't used GNU, hence I haven't had an issue with it as you assume. I read the license and said NFW. There is open source outside of GNU. Nothing GNU has/does would have helped with the issues I had with source I shared. I understand quite well the difference between OSS and Free Software. You read the GNU GPL and said No F*cking way! because either a) you didn't understand it or b) you want to take and not give back. You must hate freedom. I can only conclude from that that you want to take and not give back to those that you took from. This isn't religion -- it's economics and sociology. Those who wish to take free code and proprietize it are inherently parasitic. That's fine -- some people want you to do that. That's why they license their software that way. But, at least admit what effect that has. If you can't even admit that, then you're fooling yourself. I welcome you not to respond to this. You have nothing further to say. You couldn't back up your points. You lost the argument. 'nuff said. -Barry ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html
Re: [OT] Re: [Full-Disclosure] lame bitching about xpsp2
I am really not interrested in a pissing match but THIS was also From the site Currently, all Dell N-Series Precision Workstation desktops are available and supported with Red Hat Linux. -KF From the site: Dell does not officially support running Linux on Dell desktops. Try again -- this didn't meet my criteria and thus would not be available for an average user. No warranty and no support turns this into a no-go for Ma and Pa Kettle. -Barry ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html
Re: [OT] Re: [Full-Disclosure] lame bitching about xpsp2
Took me all of about 30 seconds... http://linux.dell.com/desktops.shtml Apparently that 30 seconds did not include reading the page you linked to. From said page: Dell does not officially support running Linux on Dell laptops. However, there are many great community-supported resources available to help you get Linux running. And: Dell does not officially support running Linux on Dell desktops. Although, as there are relatively fewer gotchas associated with Linux running on desktops as compared to laptops, installing Linux should be a fairly straight-forward task. ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html
RE: [OT] Re: [Full-Disclosure] lame bitching about xpsp2
Actually the website says: Dell does not officially support running Linux on Dell laptops, Although, as there are relatively fewer gotchas associated with Linux running on desktops as compared to laptops, installing Linux should be a fairly straight-forward task. If you quote, quote the whole thought. J -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barry Fitzgerald Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 1:28 PM To: KF_lists Cc: joe; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [OT] Re: [Full-Disclosure] lame bitching about xpsp2 KF_lists wrote: OK - put your money where your mouth is. Pretend I'm a consumer. I have 2000 USD to spend and want a good PC with a good warranty with GNU/Linux on it. Find me a link to a major OEM that will ship me a PC within those specs with decent hardware and a generally recognized name (Dell, Gateway, HP, IBM...). The PC must be listed as a desktop system and must be easy to find. That's your assignment. That's the way that you can prove your point, and it's the only way. If the situation is as you claim it is, that should take you no less than 3 minutes. The clock is ticking... Took me all of about 30 seconds... http://linux.dell.com/desktops.shtml -KF From the site: Dell does not officially support running Linux on Dell desktops. Try again -- this didn't meet my criteria and thus would not be available for an average user. No warranty and no support turns this into a no-go for Ma and Pa Kettle. -Barry ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html
Re: [OT] Re: [Full-Disclosure] lame bitching about xpsp2
- Original Message - From: Barry Fitzgerald [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 11:56 AM Subject: [OT] Re: [Full-Disclosure] lame bitching about xpsp2 OK - put your money where your mouth is. Pretend I'm a consumer. I have 2000 USD to spend and want a good PC with a good warranty with GNU/Linux on it. Find me a link to a major OEM that will ship me a PC within those specs with decent hardware and a generally recognized name (Dell, Gateway, HP, IBM...). The PC must be listed as a desktop system and must be easy to find. I went to www.dell.com. Typed Linux in the search. Clicked on Systems (because it defaults to the OS itself because it's the best match) and found this in Desktops... http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/precn_370n?c=uscs=l=ens=bsd; Dell PrecisionTM 370n with Linux NEW! Small Mini-Tower $979 Monitor not included. Processor/Display Intel® Pentium® 4 Processor 2.80GHz, 1MB/800 Operating System Red Hat Enterprise Linux WS (V.3) with one year RHN Memory 512MB, 400MHz, DDR2 SDRAM Memory, NECC (2 DIMMS) Boot Hard Drive 40GB SATA, 7200 RPM Hard Drive without RAID CD-ROM, DVD, and Read-Write Devices 48X CD-ROM Hardware Support Services 3 Year Basic Plan (No Mail-In Rebate offered with this Plan) -- Joshua Levitsky, MCSE, CISSP System Engineer http://www.foist.org/ [5957 F27C 9C71 E9A7 274A 0447 C9B9 75A4 9B41 D4D1] spacer.gif
Re: [OT] Re: [Full-Disclosure] lame bitching about xpsp2
/me Pees again and goes away... enjoy the rest of the thread fellas.. the pissing match is in full effect. -KF Invicticide X wrote: Apparently that 30 seconds did not include reading the page you linked to. Sure it did. I read it just fine... I believe you are the one that missed the paragraph stating: Currently, all Dell N-Series Precision Workstation desktops are available and supported with Red Hat Linux. You are correct though that it is NOT supported on Desktops and Laptops . And you're the one who missed the orinial line in Barry's spec which stated: The PC must be listed as a desktop system and must be easy to find. Desktops are not supported. He also said as a consumer, which I would imagine to be an individual, who most likely wouldn't be going for a corporate workstation, or buying 50+ machines (with regard to your linked article). ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html
Re: [OT] Re: [Full-Disclosure] lame bitching about xpsp2
Oops...you should have looked at the website you linked to just a little more carefully: _ Dell does not officially support running Linux on Dell desktops. Although, as there are relatively fewer gotchas associated with Linux running on desktops as compared to laptops, installing Linux should be a fairly straight-forward task. You might consider visiting Dell's Linux-Desktop Community Forum for more help in this area. _ Bart Lansing Manager, Desktop Services Kohl's IT [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 08/18/2004 03:20:29 PM: OK - put your money where your mouth is. Pretend I'm a consumer. I have 2000 USD to spend and want a good PC with a good warranty with GNU/Linux on it. Find me a link to a major OEM that will ship me a PC within those specs with decent hardware and a generally recognized name (Dell, Gateway, HP, IBM...). The PC must be listed as a desktop system and must be easy to find. That's your assignment. That's the way that you can prove your point, and it's the only way. If the situation is as you claim it is, that should take you no less than 3 minutes. The clock is ticking... Took me all of about 30 seconds... http://linux.dell.com/desktops.shtml -KF ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This is a transmission from Kohl's Department Stores, Inc. and may contain information which is confidential and proprietary. If you are not the addressee, any disclosure, copying or distribution or use of the contents of this message is expressly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please destroy it and notify us immediately at 262-703-7000. CAUTION: Internet and e-mail communications are Kohl's property and Kohl's reserves the right to retrieve and read any message created, sent and received. Kohl's reserves the right to monitor messages by authorized Kohl's Associates at any time without any further consent. ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html
Re: [OT] Re: [Full-Disclosure] lame bitching about xpsp2
KF_lists wrote: OK - put your money where your mouth is. Pretend I'm a consumer. I have 2000 USD to spend and want a good PC with a good warranty with GNU/Linux on it. Find me a link to a major OEM that will ship me a PC within those specs with decent hardware and a generally recognized name (Dell, Gateway, HP, IBM...). The PC must be listed as a desktop system and must be easy to find. That's your assignment. That's the way that you can prove your point, and it's the only way. If the situation is as you claim it is, that should take you no less than 3 minutes. The clock is ticking... Took me all of about 30 seconds... http://linux.dell.com/desktops.shtml -KF From the site: Dell does not officially support running Linux on Dell desktops. Try again -- this didn't meet my criteria and thus would not be available for an average user. No warranty and no support turns this into a no-go for Ma and Pa Kettle. -Barry ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html
Re: [OT] Re: [Full-Disclosure] lame bitching about xpsp2
OK - put your money where your mouth is. Pretend I'm a consumer. I have 2000 USD to spend and want a good PC with a good warranty with GNU/Linux on it. Find me a link to a major OEM that will ship me a PC within those specs with decent hardware and a generally recognized name (Dell, Gateway, HP, IBM...). The PC must be listed as a desktop system and must be easy to find. That's your assignment. That's the way that you can prove your point, and it's the only way. If the situation is as you claim it is, that should take you no less than 3 minutes. The clock is ticking... Took me all of about 30 seconds... http://linux.dell.com/desktops.shtml -KF ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html
RE: [OT] Re: [Full-Disclosure] lame bitching about xpsp2
Since you cut out every piece that had anything to do remotely with this list, I will respond very briefly and then fail to respond to any more list posts on this from you unless you come back to the subject of security and away from OSS vs proprietary code. I know what is from what source based on the comments in the source. Whether or not you believe I know this info is well past any caring that I have for the subject. I am not going to do your shopping for you. I will let you go ahead and type linux in the search box at Dell and look at what your options are. Last time I looked a couple of weeks ago for my brother, the lowest priced Linux machine was something like the 370 or something like that for $900 or so. Walmart (world's largest retailer, sorry it doesn't fit your definition of who should sell a computer) has Linux PCs for like $300. PCs without any OS for like $225, again it has been a few weeks since I looked though. As for IBM, no clue what is on their site. Wouldn't buy anything from them, over priced with crappy quality. If you can't find a Linux PC from IBM though I find that humorous considering IBM's public stance on Linux... There is nothing in the world I can say to convince you about others' stances on GNU. I don't really care to try. It is simply another religious point for you. As to your entire argument about it, your wrong. Note I previously said I wouldn't use GNU, I haven't used GNU, hence I haven't had an issue with it as you assume. I read the license and said NFW. There is open source outside of GNU. Nothing GNU has/does would have helped with the issues I had with source I shared. Thanks, joe -Original Message- From: Barry Fitzgerald [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 11:56 AM To: joe Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [OT] Re: [Full-Disclosure] lame bitching about xpsp2 joe wrote: If only a #define statement were copied they wouldn't be obligated to disclose it's source. I did not say that the only use was a #define, what I said was that would be enough to get MS to document it if they didn't otherwise outright own the rights. If you pick up a #define straight out of someone else's file without change, you are borrowing their work. It is small, but you are still borrowing. Someone may come looking because they may think it is more than a #define especially if the define betrays functionality not publicly documented. Not saying that is the case here so try not to read into what I am trying to say other than acknowledging use of someone else's code can occur even if it is some small piece, even if they aren't legally required. Understood - but your point was still incorrect. You're showing here that you really don't know exactly what was from what source. I, personally, have no problem with that. It's not a crime. My only question is why try to confuse things and make the point that the Win2k TCP/IP stack is not derived from BSDs code when you, in fact, can't say either way? The existance of an alternative does not make the alternative readily available. You need a readily available alternative to prove your point, and right now that doesn't exist. I would say this is a pretty poor comment on our current position. The fact that you had issues getting what you wanted from where you wanted doesn't mean alternatives are not readily available. OK - put your money where your mouth is. Pretend I'm a consumer. I have 2000 USD to spend and want a good PC with a good warranty with GNU/Linux on it. Find me a link to a major OEM that will ship me a PC within those specs with decent hardware and a generally recognized name (Dell, Gateway, HP, IBM...). The PC must be listed as a desktop system and must be easy to find. That's your assignment. That's the way that you can prove your point, and it's the only way. If the situation is as you claim it is, that should take you no less than 3 minutes. The clock is ticking... The only problem I see there is that the BSD people didn't have the foresight to license their code under the GNU GPL I think this could only have hurt its use and deployment. I suppose... if you count code taken from *BSD and added to proprietary projects, then I'd agree... I don't personally count that as deployment, though. Many large businesses do not like GNU. Ignorance will do that. Many people don't like it. Ignorance will do that. I don't like it. I think you're seeing my pattern. :) (It's not meant as a personal, ad hominem attack. Ignorance is OK. Admitting that it is the case is the first step to solving the problem.) I will never use GNU code within my code, I will rewrite what I need from scratch if I need it badly enough. I won't share my source, I tried, it turned out to be more pain than it was worth. I'm curious what you did that was so difficult. Adding source code to a package is not particularly difficult. I will use GNU
Re: [OT] Re: [Full-Disclosure] lame bitching about xpsp2
Apparently that 30 seconds did not include reading the page you linked to. Sure it did. I read it just fine... I believe you are the one that missed the paragraph stating: Currently, all Dell N-Series Precision Workstation desktops are available and supported with Red Hat Linux. You are correct though that it is NOT supported on Desktops and Laptops . Its not my fault the dell site it not overly clear. So bottom line... we are both right, and of course Barry's point is made even more clear. /me pees everywhere to begin the match. http://news.com.com/2100-1001-949671.html?tag=fd_top -KF From said page: Dell does not officially support running Linux on Dell laptops. However, there are many great community-supported resources available to help you get Linux running. And: Dell does not officially support running Linux on Dell desktops. Although, as there are relatively fewer gotchas associated with Linux running on desktops as compared to laptops, installing Linux should be a fairly straight-forward task. ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html
Re: [OT] Re: [Full-Disclosure] lame bitching about xpsp2
Apparently that 30 seconds did not include reading the page you linked to. Sure it did. I read it just fine... I believe you are the one that missed the paragraph stating: Currently, all Dell N-Series Precision Workstation desktops are available and supported with Red Hat Linux. You are correct though that it is NOT supported on Desktops and Laptops . And you're the one who missed the orinial line in Barry's spec which stated: The PC must be listed as a desktop system and must be easy to find. Desktops are not supported. He also said as a consumer, which I would imagine to be an individual, who most likely wouldn't be going for a corporate workstation, or buying 50+ machines (with regard to your linked article). ___ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html
