Re: joe the "expert" (was Re: [Full-Disclosure] IE is just as safe as FireFox )

2004-11-21 Thread john morris 
Hey Guys this is reallly getting on to ur egoes. loyality pays
royality at times.after all we all play with what pays. its high time
we realise most of the vendor certifications are over rated and dnt
guarantee the depth of knowledge. The HR people are a real piece of
morons all over if atall certifications are a measure of ur skills
they need to rediscover i guess



(FROM LINKS TO LINKS WE ARE ALL LINKED)

cheers.

morris

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RE: joe the "expert" (was Re: [Full-Disclosure] IE is just as safe as FireFox )

2004-11-21 Thread joe 
Georgi,

The may sound harsh, but the day I worry about proving my anything to you is
the day after I decide to get the MCSE certification. 

Further, if I ever get to the point about worrying what you think, I will
have to hang my 0 and 1 bits on the rack.

  joe

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Georgi Guninski
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 3:01 PM
To: Micheal Espinola Jr
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: joe the "expert" (was Re: [Full-Disclosure] IE is just as safe
as FireFox )

On Sat, Nov 20, 2004 at 06:06:10PM -0500, Micheal Espinola Jr wrote:
> Your accusations again joe's expertise and knowledge in this area are 
> completely unsubstantiated.
>

i have not seen any proofs of joe's expertise or knowledge - can you give
some proofs?

for me joe is just a chatterbox in bed with m$.

--
where do you want bill gates to go today?
   Microsoft Valued Prostitute

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Re: joe the "expert" (was Re: [Full-Disclosure] IE is just as safe as FireFox )

2004-11-21 Thread ASB 
That sentiment is particularly humorous coming from you...

-ASB


On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 22:01:12 +0200, Georgi Guninski
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 20, 2004 at 06:06:10PM -0500, Micheal Espinola Jr wrote:
> > Your accusations again joe's expertise and knowledge in this area are
> > completely unsubstantiated.
> >
> 
> i have not seen any proofs of joe's expertise or knowledge - can you give
> some proofs?
> 
> for me joe is just a chatterbox in bed with m$.
> 
> --
> where do you want bill gates to go today?
>   Microsoft Valued Prostitute
>

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Re: joe the "expert" (was Re: [Full-Disclosure] IE is just as safe as FireFox )

2004-11-21 Thread Jason Coombs 
Anyone know how many cents of MSFT valuation are a direct result of and 
attributable to MVPs?

I was lucky... I escaped before anyone threatened to make me into an MVP.

-Original Message-
From: Georgi Guninski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 22:01:12 
To:Micheal Espinola Jr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: joe the "expert" (was Re: [Full-Disclosure] IE is just as safe as 
FireFox )

On Sat, Nov 20, 2004 at 06:06:10PM -0500, Micheal Espinola Jr wrote:
> Your accusations again joe's expertise and knowledge in this area are
> completely unsubstantiated.
>

i have not seen any proofs of joe's expertise or knowledge - can you give
some proofs?

for me joe is just a chatterbox in bed with m$.

-- 
where do you want bill gates to go today?
   Microsoft Valued Prostitute

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Re: joe the "expert" (was Re: [Full-Disclosure] IE is just as safe as FireFox )

2004-11-21 Thread Georgi Guninski 
On Sat, Nov 20, 2004 at 06:06:10PM -0500, Micheal Espinola Jr wrote:
> Your accusations again joe's expertise and knowledge in this area are
> completely unsubstantiated.
>

i have not seen any proofs of joe's expertise or knowledge - can you give
some proofs?

for me joe is just a chatterbox in bed with m$.

-- 
where do you want bill gates to go today?
   Microsoft Valued Prostitute

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RE: joe the "expert" (was Re: [Full-Disclosure] IE is just as safe as FireFox )

2004-11-21 Thread joe 
I seemed to have struck a nerve here Maurizio. I have to say, nothing you
have written here has particularly enhanced my concept of the the MCSE
program. 

There are specific MVPs who certainly are cheerleaders but that has nothing
to do with them being MVPs nor the general state of the MVP Program. In fact
when I was awarded 3/4 or so years ago it was during Code Red and Nimda and
I was blasting MS in the public forums for their idiotic behavior of
enabling everything by default when most of the people who used Windows
couldn't spell IIS let alone figure out how to turn it off. When I was
approached to be an MVP I specifically asked if I would be censored or
required to pay homage in any way, shape, or form because if that were the
case, I wasn't having it. I was assured that wasn't the case and have pushed
the boundaries of that multiple times without issue. Once I became an MVP, I
rallied for, successfully I might add, for services to mostly be off and the
bar to be raised so that someone who wanted it on had to actually learn how
to turn it on. More recently the MVPs rallied (also successfully) for MS to
release SP2 to everyone and NOT have it lock out pirated copies. As a
general group, we aren't cheerleaders by any stretch of the word.

On the flip side, there are certainly MCSEs who know what the heck they are
doing. Being an MCSE isn't why they do though, they had that ability prior
to being an MCSE most likely. I would say the top 3-5 guys I personally know
in the world of Windows for how it works are not MCSE's. They are
developers,PM's, and consultants who actually work for Microsoft. Most of
the rest of the top twenty-five aren't MCSE's either unless for some reason
they HAD to get the certification which happened to a good friend and fellow
MVP recently. I think he spent maybe three weeks getting it and that was
because he was traveling at the time and training Microsoft PSS folks. 

On the description of what an MVP is on my site... Do you know what a flip
response is? 

Does MCSE mean someone is an "expert in all Microsoft technologies and
products". No. Such a person does not exist, you can not be an expert in all
Microsoft Tech, the field is far too wide. You can't even be an expert in
all client tech or all server tech. You are either going to be a generalist
or a tech expert for a specific area, possibly both, but you certainly
aren't a tech expert across all tech MS has. 

In general the MVPs are probably the most realistically hardest group on
Microsoft. We actually understand how many of their products work and have
strong opinions on how they should work and have direct persistent
connections and exposure to the people who can fix what we see wrong. We are
stuck in rooms with the Microsoft VPs and Developers as well as get their
real email addresses and phone numbers and are on private listsservs to
convince them as well. A bunch of MVPs in a room with a PM or VP responsible
for a product is ANYTHING but a group of cheerleaders. We recently had a
Security summit with maybe 50-60 Security MVPs where we spent a good amount
of time every day pointing out issues and possible solutions to MS about IE
and running as local admin and the documentation and many other things.
Another good portion of the time was spent with them showing us new products
and tech that were being worked on to solve many of the issues present today
and explaining how they intend to make things better. The last 3 or so hours
of that event was spent sitting in a room spouting our general feedback from
working groups to the likes of Rich Kaplan and the people under him where we
would voice concerns and Rich would rephrase what we said and make sure his
people were taking good notes. We also had Mike Nash in the room at one
point as well listening to what we had to say. You may not have a credence
in the technical ability and opinions of MVPs, but Microsoft certainly has
and if I had to chose whose respect and attention I wanted to have, you
would come up wanting in that decision.


On the real life business experience, you really don't know what you are
talking about in that realm with me. 


I feel bad if it took you a long time of hard work to become an MCSE and you
feel it had value beyond what it actually has. An MCSE is generally a piece
of paper to get you in the door of a hiring company who has an HR person
that sees MCSE as a documented requirement because of a misunderstanding by
the IT Management of the value of MCSE. Once you get into the job, real
capability and understanding is what kicks in and matters. The simple fact
is that many people get MCSE certs in a matter of weeks, it is simply a
matter of money and a little bit of time and memorization. If I wasn't known
in the industry and just starting out, I would consider getting an MCSE.
Nothing now would entice me to do so as it isn't something I need to get my
foot in the door. The only time I seriously considered it was in the late
90's after I had tak

Re: joe the "expert" (was Re: [Full-Disclosure] IE is just as safe as FireFox )

2004-11-20 Thread Micheal Espinola Jr 
Neither viewpoint is 100%.  But, over-all I would have to agree with
joe.  MCSE's (in my experience) are typically not worth the credit
[automatically] applied to them - not unless they have the experience
to back it.

That is of course true for any certification in any industry.  MCSE's
are easy to pick on, because the industry (employers) see it fit to
give them preferential treatment equal to System Engineer
qualifications of other products/OSs/etc - yet many MCSE's do not hold
the underlying understanding necessary for that title - and have
simply remembered and regurgitated a series of questions and answers
within an allotted time period.

I would think that members of this particular list would agree that
the larger percentile of computer users/administrators/developers that
know the least about the hardware and software they are using - are
Microsoft/Windows/PC users.

Don't take personal offense to generalizations and stereotypes that
may sound like they apply to you.  They exist only because there is
some truth to them, but they are not considered absolute.  Next time
you wish to express your viewpoint, why don't you try it with a little
more professionalism and decorum suitable for a public forum.

Your accusations again joe's expertise and knowledge in this area are
completely unsubstantiated.


On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 12:16:52 -0800 (PST), Maurizio Trinco
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "joe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > [1] Don't get me started on MCSEs. As a whole I
> think they hurt Windows far
> > more than any other thing. A bunch of people who
> feel they are experts in
> > Windows because they took a couple of tests that 10
> year olds could memorize
> > and pass and yet still not be able to run anything.
> The best I can say about
> > MCSEs is that I will *try* not to look down upon
> them for being MCSEs and
> > let them prove themselves to be worthless before I
> assume it in person.
> 
> Now from joe's own site, comes this fully untrue
> statement:
> 
> 'So what is a Microsoft MVP? The flip response is a
> Microsoft MVP is a person who answers the questions
> the MCSE/MCD/MCT folks ask.'
> 
> My dear Joe,
> 
> Let's see what Microsoft has to say about MVPs:
> http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=fh;EN-US;mvpfaqs&style=flat
> 
> Are Microsoft MVPs experts in all Microsoft
> technologies and products?
> No. Although many MVPs have in-depth knowledge of more
> than one product or technology, none of them are
> experts in all Microsoft technologies or products.
> 
> So, my dear joe, you are nothing but an ego-inflated
> bullshitter. Your verbal diarrhea is only matched by
> your unbelievably low level of competence when it
> comes to Microsoft products. Being an MCSE is much
> more than answering some "how do I send a message with
> Outlook" in one or two newsgroups. I worked really
> hard for my MCSE titles and honestly, the idea that I
> (or any of my colleagues) could seek enlightenment
> from you is simply ridiculous. If you think that
> passing exams like 216, 296 or the design exams is
> something an... er, MVP could do... then you'd better
> think again.
> While I'm an MCSE, I'm by no means an ass-kisser for
> Microsoft, as your MVPiness seems to be. Their
> products, contrary to popular belief, could be
> extremely complex (try real life business environment,
> compared to that unlicensed version of Windows 2003
> server you're running at home) and many times
> extremely badly written and vulnerable -- but very
> complex nevertheless. Saying otherwise, only proves
> your lack of specialization (hint: familiarity is NOT
> specialization; you may be 'familiar' with your
> colorful XP, but that makes you by no means a
> 'specialist').
> Oh, and something else: for some 10 years before I
> became an MCSE, I was the typical Unix admin. I used
> to laugh at Windows NT, I stopped laughing at 2000.
> I'm by no means friends with hip-kiddies who think
> Linux is cooler than Window$$$, I really dislike
> Microsoft-moronized Windows ass-kissers like you, who
> only know buzzwords, but have no real knowledge of the
> system. You should go together and exchange some
> fanatic e-mails; you belong in a place where
> 'my-OS-is-longer-yours' fights
> 'windows-2003-is-secure-by-default-'cause-Billy-told-us-so'.
> Anything else... is just proving yourself how MVP and
> not MCSE you are. Or whatever Unix/IT certification
> you may choose, other than the ridiculous MVP thingie.
> 
> Take care and don't let the bedbugs bite.
> 
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-- 
ME2


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