Re: US Says: Kill first Green later!!! (fwd)

1998-05-19 Thread Steve Kurtz

Greetings,

There are some thoughts in Brad's response  Mike's post that I would
like to address. First is that wealth is viewed as token accumulations,
not the stuff that is eaten, used for shelters, .. bio-habitat in
general. The composition and distribution of the former seems to change
over generations and centuries; the latter have only declined both in
toto, and even more dramatically, per capita.

Humans in 1750 - 1.7B;  1950 - 2.5B ( 200 yrs, 50% gain); 1987 - 5B (37
yrs, a doubling)
Estimate 2000 - 6B (13 yrs, 20% gain) ( more people of breeding age
alive now than ever before)
 
Waste occurs in various ways. Technology can be neutral or
positive(sustainable), but  usually increases economic throughput,
resource depletion, and waste production in the form of 'less usable' or
harmful material as by-product. 

It is human desires, however induced or stimulated, that drive economic
activity. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
Socio-economic policy critics tend to blur the variables of available
*real wealth* and its distribution, and token distribution. Most
eggregiously perhaps, they often overlook the fact that in the average
lifetime of a WWII baby, the average per-capita share of real wealth
will have declined to  1/3 of what it was at her birth. Pop 2B-1940, 
pop 6B-2000,  LESS HABITAT, POTABLE WATER, FOREST, FISH, ARABLE
LAND...to divide, sustainably or otherwise.

BTW, I fully support conversion of weaponry efforts to green efforts,
and I find the arts a great pleasure. I also ceased work for $ a few
years ago, and thanks to token accumulation, devote considerable time (
some tokens) to sustainable future activism.

Steve Kurtz
Fitzwilliam NH
 
B.Mc:

... *All* life produces waste (CO2, urine, feces...), and, obviously, a
 person who disposes over a rich cornucopia of natural resources and
 the proucts of labor will necessarily be responsible for a lot of
 chemical transformations.  
 
 But this is not what is usually meant by *waste* and *destruction*.
 It does not seem to me a priori impossible for a rich person to
 generally devote their life to what is fashionably called "netative
 entropy": increasing the information value of their possessions.
 Sure they will make some garbage, but it is well known that
 poverty is a highly effective producer of waste and destruction
 (slash and burn agriculture, spreading of disease by poor sanitation,
 etc.).
 
 Instead of saying tht wealth necessarily entails waste and destruction,
 why can't we try to change our world so that the well-to-do find their
 pleasures in such non-destructive activities as scientific research
 (devoted to solving real human problems, (snip)
 teaching, architecture (especially moderate cost housing that
 enriches the spirits of the occupants), art (_Moby Dick_, _The
 Man Without Qualities_, _Gargantua and Pantagruel_, The
 Art of the Fugue, The Hammerclavier Sonata, etc. 
 probably didn't produce too much toxic waste
 
 Yours in the belief that the main thing wrong with wealth if that
 not everybody has it, ...



FW Request for ideas

1998-05-19 Thread S. Lerner

FWers - If we think it's important to ensure basic economic security for
all citizens of the industrialized 'have' nations, what suggestions do you
have as to how this should be accomplished?

Sally Lerner





Re: FW Request for ideas

1998-05-19 Thread Selma Singer

I know there's been some discussion from time to time on this list about
the way Norway, e.g., has been able to provide that security. Perhaps
those who are knowledgeable about that can provide us with some detail
about how it works and/or why it doesn't work as well as it might.

Certainly there is a big difference between the way many of the Northern
European countries have approached this matter and the way the United
States has handled it. I don't have the economic savvy to explore this in
much depth but maybe a discussion of some of the differences in approach
would be a fruitful starting point.

It's a very complicated subject, of course, and involves much more than
just economics.Certainly all the major institutions of every country and
its history and culture affect what is done and what can be done, but I
believe it is possible to learn alot from looking at the way different
countries attempt to deal with these issues and even from looking at the
way some countries (The U.S.?) don't seem to want to even be bothered.



On Tue, 19 May 1998, S. Lerner wrote:

 FWers - If we think it's important to ensure basic economic security for
 all citizens of the industrialized 'have' nations, what suggestions do you
 have as to how this should be accomplished?
 
 Sally Lerner
 
 
 

Selma

*Pain is Inevitable; Suffering is Optional*
 (Loosely translated from The Buddha)
   
Sylvia Boorstein 
   

  




Re: FW Request for ideas

1998-05-19 Thread S. Lerner

Tom - Thanks for the question. I meant to leave the definition of basic
economic security a bit open, but perhaps it would be helpful to all to
suggest that it might consist of secure access to the necessities of life
(realizing that what are 'necessities' can be forever--not very
usefully--debated) and to whatever additional resources are required for
individuals and families to participate fully in their communities (e.g.
kids can afford to join organized sports.)  FWers - please feel free to
send responses to the list as well as (or instead of) to me.   Sally






Tom wrote:

Sally, can you elaborate more on what you want. The developed or
industrialized nations are doing a pretty good job already- at the
expense of the have not, of course. what is your idea of economic
security? one suv and a minivan in each suburban ranch h;ome with cable
and an internet connection? or are we talking a guaranteed 2500
kcalories/day and a full medical/dental plan?

cheers

tom abeles


S. Lerner wrote:

 FWers - If we think it's important to ensure basic economic security for
 all citizens of the industrialized 'have' nations, what suggestions do you
 have as to how this should be accomplished?

 Sally Lerner