Visions of Heaven or Hell
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Gile) To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Comments Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1999 17:26:30 -0800 X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by tao.ca id UAA21930 I was interested by your repost of the article "Money & Human Rights Out of Date", thought it outrageous, but very provocative. As I studied it some more, I saw his reference "Personal advisor to Ernst Stavro Blofeld" which turns out to be a James Bond character - which caused me to consider it a spoof. But as I prowled around, I found that Ian Angell is a real person, who is on the speech circuit pushing the envelope on other things also - "Economic Crime: Beyond Good and Evil" a 1996 paper he published in the Journal of Financial Regulation and Compliance. http://www.sgrm.com/art25.htm He is also included in a Strategis paper on Alternative Views on future employment on a commentary on Jeremy Rifkin. http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/SSG/it03932e.html My reaction to the Money and Human Rights article is that the serfs like us will just have to opt out - if we don't buy, they can't sell. Seems that if one follows the survival recommendations for Y2K, we are heading in the right direction. His scenario presumed that no taxes, no society, no responsibility etc. is good for business, but without us, there is no business. My wife commented on the origin of the word "boycott" - how people ostracised Captain Boycott - I'd not heard of it, so I searched and found the following: "The story of the 'Land War' over the next two decades is part of Irish history rather than of the Mayo story specifically. Mayo, however, played a prominent, and sometimes violent, role in the struggle. Almost half of what were termed 'agrarian outrages' (maiming of cattle, destruction of property, wounding and even killing of land agents, landlords, and those who were considered 'land grabbers') in the early 1880s occurred in Mayo, Kerry and west Galway. At the same time, Mayo attracted international attention, and in the process gave a new word to the English language, by initiating a rather novel form of non-violent protest. This involved a campaign of ostracisation against Lord Erne's Mayo agent, a Norfolk man named Captain Charles Cunningham Boycott, whose efforts to secure the harvest from the estate on the eastern shore of Lough Mask necessitated the importation of some fifty Orangemen, mostly from Cavan, and a force of about a thousand soldiers and police to protect them. The campaign against the 'Boycott Relief Expedition' was orchestrated by Father John O'Malley, parish priest of Kilmolara (resident in the Neale), and it was he who suggested the term 'boycotting' as being easier for his parishioners to pronounce that 'ostracisation'. The unfortunate Boycott realised by late November 1880 that all his efforts had been in vain (the harvest had cost over 10,000 - 'a shilling for every turnip dug' said Parnell), and so, taking his family with him, he returned to England until the agitation had subsided. The land agitation was gradually resolved by a scheme of a state-aided land purchase, under which the tenants became full owners of the land. A series of land purchase acts provided the finance which enabled the tenants to purchsae the land from landlords and repay the loans with interest over a number of years. Tenant farmers became owner-occupiers within a generation and in the process created the foundations for the politically stable society we enjoy today." http://www.mayo-ireland.ie/Mayo/History/H18to19.htm No parades, shouting, signs, etc. Just ostracism. Hm. John Gile Victoria, BC . Bob Olsen, Toronto[EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Is Angell on the side of the angels?
I have looked through Angell's on-line papers listed at http://www.csrc.lse.ac.uk/Academic_Papers/List_of_Papers.htm and I see no reason to conclude that his speech to AMEC is a satire intended to derail the implementation of the Brave New World descibed in that speech. The speech certainly contains elements of satire and black humour and wide-ranging allusions to Nietzsche, Shaw, etc. The fact that Angell whimsically chooses to represent himself as the personal adviser to the fictional James Bond character Ernst Stavro Blofeld in no way proves that he is satirizing the amorality embodied in Blofeld. He can equally well be satirizing the timidity of his audience who want to have the power and wealth of Blofeld while still thinking of themselves as nice guys with a clean conscience. The half dozen papers expound the same ideas as the AMEC speech, but the use of irony is either absent or very muted. On reading them my conclusion is that Angell really does, as a matter of conscious choice, espouse the Nietzschean view of morality as he asserts. Unquestionably like the rest of us he is complex enough to have some feelings at odds with his creed, perhaps some niggling doubts, but this does not mean he is insincere about his stated position or covertly trying to undermine it. Pointing to the fact that Angell is articulate, well-read and formidably intelligent does not constitute proof that he is at odds with his overt position. Undoubtedly the same qualities could be attributed to Nietzsche, but so far as I know, no one has ever suggested that Nietzsche was satirizing the views he expounded. Certainly that was not the conclusion of the Nazis who hailed Nietzsche as their intellectual progenitor. We always want to believe that the truly gifted and intelligent are on the side of the angels (which we take to be our own side), but it is not necessarily so. We should remember the caveat uttered by literary critic George Steiner over three decades ago: "We know now that a man can read Goethe or Rilke in the evening, that he can play Bach and Schubert, and go to his day's work at Auschwitz in the morning. To say that he has read them without understanding or that his ear is gross, is cant. In what way does this knowledge bear on literature and society, on the hope, grown almost axiomatic from the time of Plato to that of Matthew Arnold, that culture is a humanizing force, that the energies of spirit are transferable to those of conduct? Moreover, it is not only the case that the established media of civilization--the universities, the arts, the book world--failed to offer adequate resistance to political bestiality; they often rose to welcome it and to give it ceremony and apologia." (Preface, Language and Silence, 1967) I do not think it would be wise to hail Professor Ian O. Angell as an ally of progressive forces. Nevertheless, I do think that he is remarkably clear-sighted up to a point. I believe that his Brave New World is a highly probable future, perhaps the most probable future, if we are unable to check the dominant trends of our time. I say "clear-sighted up to a point" because I believe that the Brave New World is flawed with inherent contradictions that would soon cause it to self-destruct--if it does not first cause the extinction of humanity (both winners and losers) through environmental disaster. Victor Milne FIGHT THE BASTARDS! An anti-neoconservative website at http://www3.sympatico.ca/pat-vic/pat-vic/ LONESOME ACRES RIDING STABLE at http://www3.sympatico.ca/pat-vic/
Re: (Fwd) Erlich Is Wrong Again
-- Hi Eva et al, >. the presumable implication >> >would be a regressive surcharge on some consumer goods that >> >again puts the onus for today's socioeconomic problems on the >> >victims of class-ruled society--on workers who under capitalism >> >have little say in what is produced or under what conditions >> >production is accomplished. >> >> No. Not surcharges on consumer goods, but price structiures which >> reflect the true lifecycle costs of products and FUELS. >> >> > >the result would be extra taxes on consumer goods, surely, and that >was the point: the process of taking from the lower earners >and gaining by the upper ones would go on. > >Eva > >... > >> Caspar Davis Eva, you have a one track mind. ;-) The problems of today have multiple causes and should be approached in multiple ways. The economic system of each country/area are different and, likewise, the political environment varies. This is especially true among more and less developed regions. The need for setting prices according to the true life cycle costs is their in all types of economic systems. So is the need to diffuse economic and political decision-making. Human rights are needed everywhere as is a need to protect other species. Profit is what drives all economic systems. The differences are in the ways we define and use the term. Capitalists measure profit in bottom line cash flow terms. Others consider other variables such as depletion of resources, health, free time and social satisfaction. Dictators use social control as their definition. I live in the US and know few details of the current economic environment in Europe, but I have been told that many EU countries have a history of more social concern for their citizens than the US does today. Will this change (on either side)? I hope that the US electorate will swing back towards a more inclusive, caring voting pattern. To do so will require taking back the media from the large TNCs that control it now. This is being done, in part, by using the internet for information dissemination, bypassing the normal 'media'. I see this trend increasing and that is why I belong to this and other lists. I also belong so that I can engage in the debate on where we should go. My TV watching is limited to football games. The TV news is useless except for weather reports. Dennis Paull Los Altos, California
Re: (Fwd) Erlich Is Wrong Again
> I believe that the issues of population growth and economic system > are separable. Solving one problem will not solve the other! > > The air is just as bad in socialist countries as in capitalist ones. Socialist countries? Where?? I am SO ready to emigrate... > Fuel resources don't depend on who is in power. A solution to a > resource problem can be equally applied in any economic environment. > hm? The rate of profit falls even without any investment scheduled for environmental research/ precautions. I thought the capitalist economic mechanism needs profits to operate. Why do you think that besides those long-worded policy documents - sitting in deep, dark drawers - nothing really meaningful happened even in the developed world in the last 20 years. > So, Eva, I believe that the problems being discussed should be > addressed by those who are concerned about our future. I hope you mean all of us... > Let's find > ways to substitute widely available resources for those in growing > short supply, limit population growth and work towards a fairer > economic system that values both humans as individuals and our > fellow life forms. > ... amen... but the last part of the sentence is the "if and only if" bit... Eva > Dennis Paull, > Los Altos, California > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: (Fwd) Erlich Is Wrong Again
. the presumable implication > >would be a regressive surcharge on some consumer goods that > >again puts the onus for today's socioeconomic problems on the > >victims of class-ruled society--on workers who under capitalism > >have little say in what is produced or under what conditions > >production is accomplished. > > No. Not surcharges on consumer goods, but price structiures which > reflect the true lifecycle costs of products and FUELS. > > the result would be extra taxes on consumer goods, surely, and that was the point: the process of taking from the lower earners and gaining by the upper ones would go on. Eva ... > Caspar Davis > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Citizens on the Web: Growing Gap
Happy New Year Ray. As you know, I prefer stories to factual stuff. Have you read 'Mean Spirit' by Linda Hogan? She tells a story about that period of your people you mentioned in your most recent posting. It would make a good meditation, eh? Take care, Brian ** * Brian McAndrews, Practicum Coordinator* * Faculty of Education, Queen's University * * Kingston, Ontario K7L 3N6 * * FAX:(613) 533-6307 Phone (613) 533-6000x74937* * e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]* * "Ethics and aesthetics are one"* * Wittgenstein * ** ** **
Re: time travel
Thomas Lunde wrote: > my kids at some point in time changed the time settings ... > My apologies to you and others My goodness, TL, an apology is certainly not required. *I* mistakenly thought that the date & time were affixed by the server and not alterable by mere users. So perhaps I owe you an apology for thinking there might be something of interest here. SS Stephen Straker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Vancouver, B.C.
Re: The end of work?
Dear Mark: This is getting to be a lengthy E Mail, but I am becoming convinced by my own experience that continuing to repost and add to a thread has a learning and historical value. Of course it is nice to read my mail in paragragh bits of pithy quotes, intelligent rebuttals, and clever opinions. And yes, it is a bit of drag to re-read or skim a lengthy post such as this and update myself on what I have read before, but repitition is a form of learning. So readers be warned, I am going to repost a lengthy post from another list - you may have read it - or not, it is worth reading again or for the first time and then to review the comments that have already been posted to this thread. This post specifically, though in great detail answers Mark's question, "This may be late and off-topic, but it would be interesting to see whether it is possible (it may have already been done, I don't know) to >produce a variant of the current international GDP accounting system where, as Mr Milne bluntly and correctly puts it, manufactured things are assets and human potential is a liability. Respectfully, Thomas Lunde The repost: -- Forwarded message -- Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 17:35:32 + From: Janet M. Eaton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: MAI-Math: Is there an alternative? Ron Colman-GPI Atlantic === This paper was delivered by Dr. Ronald Colman, Director of the GPI Atlantic Project in Nova Scotia, at the MAI Inquiry held in Halifax, Nova Scotia, November 28, 1998. Ronald Colman's GPI Atlantic is showing what's wrong with our current measures of progress and what we can do about it through his work on the Genuine Progress Index!! In this paper he shows how GDP/MAI type mathematics, which is the math that is the foundation of every Economics 101 text, is a math that misleads policy makers, rewards environmental destruction, elevates materialism to the primary social ethic, and, for the first time since the Industrial Revolution, makes it highly likely that the next generation will be worse off than the present one. He goes on to show that there is a better way!! GPI Atlantic is a non-profit research group that is currently constructing an index of sustainable development for Nova Scotia, a Genuine Progress Index, that measures the value of our natural resources, of unpaid work, of equity, of human and social capital, in addition to market statistics. And it subtracts rather than adds the costs of crime, toxic pollution and other activities that detract from well-being. By integrating social, economic and environmental variables into a comprehensive set of accounts, it becomes possible to find out whether welfare is actually being enhanced or diminished by current economic policy. It can send more accurate signals to policy makers and help them identify measures that can contribute to genuine progress, well-being and prosperity. Ron Colman and the team of advisors and researchers he has assembled are examining 20 social, economic, and environmental indicators, selected in consultation with Statistics Canada. Ron is quick to recognize and note that GPI Atlantic is building on the pioneering work of Redefining Progress in California, of the World Resources Institute, and of other leaders in sustainable development accounting. His greatest hope for the project is that it will result in an actual tool for the practical use of policy makers.. . Statistics Canada has designated this project as a pilot for the rest of the country -meaning Nova Scotia has a chance to take the lead in creating a new economy for the 21st century that will genuinely reflect the social, spiritual, environmental, and human values of our society. For a description of the project, complete background papers, and news releases see the GPI Atlantic Website address: www.gpiatlantic.org Ron Colman can be reached at [EMAIL PROTECTED] The following paper is not on the GPI website so you may wish to save it in your files. All the best, Janet Eaton, Advisory Council, GPI -Atlantic. [EMAIL PROTECTED] = MAI INQUIRY, HALIFAX, 28 November, 1998 MAI MATHEMATICS: IS THERE AN ALTERNATIVE? Ronald Colman, Ph.D, Director, GPI Atlantic Thank you for coming here today to listen to us. We have learned so much from you over many years. We appreciate that you are now here to hear us. Why is the MAI so important to some? We must begin by acknowledging that according to a certain kind of mathematics it is very attractive. It can be shown to increase production, to expand trade, to lower production costs, and to keep inflation low. It is the same mathematics that measures economic strength and social well-being according to GDP growth rates, and that focuses tremendous attention on related market statistics like interest rate changes, currency exchange value fluctuations, and gains and losses
Re: Citizens on the Web: Growing Gap
Dear Ray: I have touched on some of the ideas you mentioned but I wonder if you could suggest a reading list on the Cherokee History and on Georgist Thought. Respectfully, Thomas Lunde -Original Message- From: Ray E. Harrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Caspar Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: Thomas Lunde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; System Politics <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Future Work <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: December 31, 1998 11:07 PM Subject: Re: Citizens on the Web: Growing Gap >This particular Georgist (Casper Davis) finally answered a question that I >posed on this list a couple of years ago to one of his colleagues from >California. In the 1880s the politician Henry Dawes visited the Cherokee >Nation in Oklahoma where there was no poverty and more than a little wealth >as well as universal education, health care and suffrage. Not a person was >in debt and everyone owned their own house.More than a few were >mansions and some were millionaires, today they would be considerably more >than millionaires. All of this in a population of under 50,000 people. > >Dawes reported back to Washington that they were followers of Henry George >and would never progress further until the "common" was broken up and >"every person learned the virtue of selfishness" which Dawes considered to >be the root of all human progress.Ten years later the federal >government used Dawes' report not only to justify breaking up the Cherokee >lands but to dispossess all indigenous nations of their lands and self >government. They created the state of Oklahoma and after giving a >pittance to each Indian citizen they dispersed the rest in a land rush to >the local European immigrants.After the state of Oklahoma was formed it >was the Cherokee Lawyers who formed the Oklahoma Bar Association and not >the immigrants the same was true for the medical doctors, teachers and the >State's Baptist Newspaper which all came from the then defunct Cherokee >nation and culture. > >I asked two years ago how we (my Cherokee ancestors) were followers of >Henry George, and today Casper explained it. I would say that Henry George >was "following" us considering that our structure was older but nonetheless >it did seem to be the same. Dawes was at least right about that. I did >not realize how hostile American Society was to George in the 1890s. > >I would suggest that it might behoove economist Angell to study the >Cherokee Nation from 1846 to the Congressional Curtis Dissolution Act in >the 1890s to understand why the TNCs and Information Revolution are such >delicate affairs. It is the foreign policy of governments that has >destroyed the best ideals of Utopian thought and schemes. Companies do >not have that possibility even when they have yearly budgets that far >exceed the budgets of most world governments. Indeed China has a limited >GDP but its land and people mass could obliterate Bill Gates and friends >small universe if they were placed in competition without outside >governmental help going to Gates. > >Would the Soviet Union have collapsed if it had not had a virtual embargo >by the West for almost the entire seventy years of its existence?How >about Cuba?We have not had a fair competition with any of the Communist >systems compared to the Capitalists without government embargo and military >pressures applied on both sides thus far. > >There is very little that was practiced by any of the communist countries >that was not practiced by this country in its first seventy years of >existence. Would the U.S. have collapsed on itself if it had not committed >genocide for its frontier expansion and had first an owned work force of >human slaves from 1776 to 1860 and then an oppressing apartheid policy to >protect the European minority in the South from 1865 to 1954? > >Would the South have been America's Chechniya (sp?) with legislatures >elected by the Black majority across the South that were hostile and thus >drove the Europeans both North and West? Would these reverse >carpetbaggers have created a hostile underclass that would have devoured >the democracy from within its white ranks and created the kind of cynical >laissez faire attitude that is prevalent in Russia today but without the >cultural glue thus driving the wealthy back to Europe from whence they >came? > >Well, just some thoughts on these last few hours of 1998. I would suggest >that another traditional process might be in order for many of the problems >that have been discussed thus far on this list. Recently there has been a >revival of religious programming in the U.S. with even the medical >profession suggesting that prayer, even from a distance, can heal people >who are connected to each other. > >Being both a pagan and a priest, this might seem strange to some that I >would suggest a possible answer within such a thought but nonetheless I am >offering the thought. It is said that meditation is
[socdev] New Social Development Indicators site on the Web (fwd)
-- Forwarded message -- Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 18:04:48 -0500 (EST) From: Roberto Bissio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: socdev list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [socdev] New Social Development Indicators site on the Web Happy New Year for you all! This is a short note to announce the launching on the Internet of a new site, allowing for the retrieval of social development indicators in graph and spreadsheet formats. The address is http://www.socwatch.org.uy/indicators The site itself provides background information and usage help on- line. Your comments are welcomed! Roberto Bissio 1948 - 1998 | 50 aniversario de la Declaracion de Derechos Humanos -- Roberto Bissio ITeM, Jackson 1136, Montevideo 11200, Uruguay Director Ejecutivo Fax: + 598 (2) 419222 Tel: + 598 (2) 496192 Instituto del Tercer Mundoe-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: time travel
Dear Stephen: I guess I was trying to prove that all that is written is not true or garbage in - garbage out. In reality, my kids at some point in time changed the time settings and though I had been told by another poster, I did not go and correct them as I am intimidated by making changes on my computer. My apologies to you and others who have noticed - or not - my failures. Respectfully, Thomas LUNDE >Thomas: > >Here I am in BC at 2:30pm, Thursday, 31 Dec, '98. > >How are you managing to send out messages from elsewhere in (eastern?) >Canada dated 4:41AM or PM on SATURDAY the 2nd of January '99?? > >Or is ".ca" somewhere weird like New Zealand or Tasmania? > > >Stephen Straker<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Department of History (604) 822-2561 >University of British Columbia >Vancouver, B.C.FAX: (604) 822-6658 >CANADA V6T 1Z1home: (604) 734-4464 > >
