Re: microwave ovens (was Re: FW A very thought-provoking paper)
REH wrote: It seems that micro-waves kill enzymes that are necessary for digestion and her digestion was the one thing that showed up on the tests. She also had enjoyed cooking her own meals since she was a baby, in the micro-wave oven. He explained that food was her first medicine and that she had not had the necessary enzymes to digest the food so it basically fermented in her stomach and the resultant toxins gave her ulcers (no there were no bacterial problems) and now her stomach was an irritated mess. Basically, all enzymes are destroyed above 42 degrees Celsius, no matter whether in conventional ovens or in microwave ovens. But there are 3 other differences between microwave and conventional cooking: - Pathogens like salmonellae, E.coli etc. survive better in microwave ovens because the heating is quite irregular and usually shorter. [1..3] - The unusual heating (from inside to outside and depending on local water content) leads to food being hotter inside than expected, which leads to internal burns after ingestion. [4] - Microwave cooking can put toxic plastics components from the package into the food. [5,6] All 3 points happen to be decisive in the etiology of stomach ulcers and irritated digestion. This is researched by medical science, not a secret of homeopaths. ;-) Sorry for the off-topic post.. Chris References: [1] Salmonella outbreak from microwave cooked food. Evans MR; Parry SM; Ribeiro CD Epidemiol Infect, 1995 Oct, 115:2, 227-30 [2] Protective effect of conventional cooking versus use of microwave ovens in an outbreak of salmonellosis. Gessner BD; Beller M. Am J Epidemiol, 1994 May, 139:9, 903-9. [3] Survival of microbial films in the microwave oven. Page WJ; Martin WG Can J Microbiol, 1978 Nov, 24:11, 1431-3 [4] Laryngeal burns secondary to the ingestion of microwave-heated food. Goldberg RM; Lee S; Line WS Jr. J Emerg Med, 1990 May-Jun, 8:3, 281-3. [5] Effect of microwave heating on the migration of dioctyladipate and acetyltributylcitrate plasticizers from food-grade PVC and PVDC/PVC films into olive oil and water. Badeka AB; Kontominas MG Z Lebensm Unters Forsch, 1996 Apr, 202:4, 313-7 [6] Migration of polyisobutylene from polyethylene/polyisobutylene films into foods during domestic and microwave oven use. Castle L; Nichol J; Gilbert J Food Addit Contam, 1992 Jul-Aug, 9:4, 315-30
Re: FW A very thought-provoking paper
Ray said(in part): "Two of those can best be shown with the following examples. The first is about Medicine. We have a Medical Model that is basically chemical intervention on a war footing against disease. A member of my family that is now fifteen has, since birth, been a participant in that belief system. Her health has steadily declined until this year she missed a whole semester of school as the family took her from the internist to the gastrointorologist, to the neurologist, to MRIs, to various "oscopies" and she just got worse. Along the way she also started psycho-therapy just in case. Actually, given the failure of everyone to even help, the latter makes the most sense if she was to survive the bungling of the rest. Finally we took her to a homeo- pathist who works with a regular internist who ordered more tests." - Ray, , I was just thinking similar thoughts about western medicine as I was driving into work at lunch today. King Hussein's death was being talked about on the news. They were mentioning all the high tech treatments he had received in the US. I remember reading an article where a leading researcher in chemotherapy developed cancer and chose not to go through the standard chemo process. He said he knew too much. Tony Hillerman has a beautiful section in one of his Jim Chee, Joe Leaphorn Navaho mystery novels. Chee tells a white friend that he would be doing a healing ceremony over the weekend for an old Navaho women who was dying. The white friend inquires on the following Monday if the healing ceremony had been successful. Chee says yes. The white friend, somewhat bewildered, asks if she wasn't going to die. Chee replies of course she is. The healing ceremony was 'successful' because the old woman and her family found peace and acceptance through the sacred ritual. Helps me with Wittgenstein's aphorism: 'Ethics and Aesthetics are one' ** * Brian McAndrews, Practicum Coordinator* * Faculty of Education, Queen's University * * Kingston, Ontario K7L 3N6 * * FAX:(613) 533-6307 Phone (613) 533-6000x74937* * e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]* * "Ethics and aesthetics are one"* * Wittgenstein * ** ** **
Re: an empirical observation Re: the end of 'wage slavery'
I think the problem is the "we" and "them" situation, and I'm afraid you were perceived as "them". Why should they do something boring, when they could play? The low level computer skills that are on offer on these courses are not getting you a job. (I've been there, done it, got the tshirt...) Why should they attempt to get a crappy job that hardly pays more than the assistance? Why should they take all the lecturing and the usual smug contempt of "helpers" with any other attitude? For decent jobs with decent wage there are too many applicants, and if you were out of work or never worked your chance is zilch. You never heard anything else in school, but that you are stupid and the experience was humiliating and boring. Why would they volunteer for what they think is more of the same? If there was a basic income type of thing and free choice of free education with interested, not overworked and harrassed teachers, the confidence would come back with the change from exclusion to inclusion. Eva Yeah, we creative types really dream of the end of 'wage slavery' ! I could spend years and years only with creative hobbies, NGO volunteering and the Net, but alas, the 'job' work gets in the way most of the time. However, in a part of the NGO work I got to know a different kind of persons: When I created a social programme for unemployed people, I naively thought they could be put to a (low-level, low-intensity) task and simply do the work all day, or even find own ideas to work something useful. Wrong. 90% of them did nothing (except reading the newspaper, chatting/arguing, and other nonsense), unless someone advised them "every move" all the time. I offered them a variety of opportunities, even a computer system to work with, and individual courses on it. But they ended up with playing computer games. They didn't ask me for new projects, but for new games after they got bored of the old ones. You may say: "See, you're not a social worker..". But the 'managers' of other similar programmes confirmed the attitude of the participants. Note: The official purpose of those programmes is to give the unemployed a structure to increase their chances to get back into the working mill err process. Now, I don't put the blame on those individuals. Rather, I think it was "the system" that made them like that. Actually, at least in 'lower' positions, corporations don't seem to want employees with "own brains", but they want "wage slaves". It will take huge educational and psycho-social efforts to prepare these people for the Basic Income society, or they will end up in even more boredom, despair and drugs. Greetings, Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: an empirical observation Re: the end of 'wage slavery'
Christoph Reuss wrote:
Yeah, we creative types really dream of the end of 'wage slavery' !
I could spend years and years only with creative hobbies, NGO volunteering
and the Net, but alas, the 'job' work gets in the way most of the time.
However, in a part of the NGO work I got to know a different kind of
persons: When I created a social programme for unemployed people, I naively
thought they could be put to a (low-level, low-intensity) task and simply do
the work all day, or even find own ideas to work something useful. Wrong.
90% of them did nothing (except reading the newspaper, chatting/arguing,
and other nonsense), unless someone advised them "every move" all the time.
I offered them a variety of opportunities, even a computer system to work
with, and individual courses on it. But they ended up with playing computer
games. They didn't ask me for new projects, but for new games after they
got bored of the old ones. You may say: "See, you're not a social worker..".
But the 'managers' of other similar programmes confirmed the attitude of
the participants. Note: The official purpose of those programmes is to
give the unemployed a structure to increase their chances to get back into
the working mill err process.
Now, I don't put the blame on those individuals. Rather, I think it was
"the system" that made them like that. Actually, at least in 'lower'
positions, corporations don't seem to want employees with "own brains", but
they want "wage slaves". It will take huge educational and psycho-social
efforts to prepare these people for the Basic Income society, or they will
end up in even more boredom, despair and drugs.
Chris,
I spent an entire year shooting pool and watching the TV in the Army because they
had lost my papers. Had I pointed this out I might have been dead in Vietnam.
But I didn't "do drugs" and wasn't bored, (I read a lot.) I also read that
both Veblen and Keynes wrote their first masterpieces when they were "loafing"
(Heilbroner's word, not mine) on the job.
I have experienced on all levels the hostility of those above to people
"improvising" with their jobs at lower levels. They only want to know that you
are there when they ask. Sort of like Butlers. (the Blue Team)
That is one of the reasons that I find Capitalism and the Market to be so
incredibly poor at efficiency with too much redundancy. On the other hand when
the Master Capitalists took over in the Gingrich Revolution they cut their staffs
to the bone and then couldn't deal with the business of the offices.
No, I don't think that 19th century Socialism and Communism with its base in out
of date "scientific" theories is any better. These may as well base their
theories on Phrenology for all of the sense they make. They were all trying to
find their individuality by killing their Fathers. ("I'm sure I can write a
better Bible than that!)
Remember, what "did the Phrenologists in" was not science but racism. They found
the Lakota had the most ideal, large skulls, bigger and better brains, and their
theories never recovered. Of course along the way they operated a huge trade in
human skeletons ($600 per, they said the stench of boiling human flesh around the
Army posts was unbelievable,) that made the Lakota more valuable dead than alive.
That is the reason that I do my own work and am my own boss.I miss the
"safety" and am considered irresponsible by some for not having more of an
inheritance for my offspring, but it seems you can't have both in this
society. Sometimes it's better just to stay out of the way of those "economies
of scale."
REH
Re: microwave ovens (was Re: FW A very thought-provoking paper)
REH wrote: Christoph Reuss wrote: Basically, all enzymes are destroyed above 42 degrees Celsius, no matter whether in conventional ovens or in microwave ovens. But there are 3 other differences between microwave and conventional cooking: - Pathogens like salmonellae, E.coli etc. survive better in microwave ovens because the heating is quite irregular and usually shorter. [1..3] - The unusual heating (from inside to outside and depending on local water content) leads to food being hotter inside than expected, which leads to internal burns after ingestion. [4] - Microwave cooking can put toxic plastics components from the package into the food. [5,6] All 3 points happen to be decisive in the etiology of stomach ulcers and irritated digestion. This is researched by medical science, not a secret of homeopaths. ;-) Chris, I have known about 2 and 3 but the food propaganda here is the opposite of number one. In fact they recommend pre-cooking ground meats in the Micro-Wave to kill organisms like salmonella and e-coli if you like rare meats. Let's analyze this (it does fit together): Conventional ovens heat the food from outside to inside, so the pathogens INside ground meat survive if you don't cook it long enough. Microwave ovens heat the food from inside to outside, so the pathogens on the _surface_ survive if you don't cook it long enough (and on most food _except_ ground meats, most of the pathogens are on the surface, hence my point 1). Thus, it does make sense to PRE-cook ground meats in the microwave (killing the pathogens INside) and then cook it regularly. See, "the devil is in the details"... ;-) Also your second statement goes against your first No, because on most foods the majority of pathogens is on the surface. Ground meat is an exception as the name implies. But my daughter recieved initially the best of science. Considering that she was seen at three of the biggest hospitals in New York, Columbia, Mount Sinai and Roosevelt, all prestigious and all scientific and they came up with nothing except making the therapist more useful because of her lack of hope. I don't understand your last statement. We thoroughly followed that route and it came up zilch! Except it cost us $10,000 even with insurance. Well, it's an open secret that "mainstream" docs have virtually no idea of nutrition and prevention. This is a structural problem in their education. Your criticism of the medical system is perfectly valid on that account. However, your homeopath seemed to imply that enzymes survive in conventional cooking but not in microwave cooking, which was a wrong interpretation. I've heard similar stories on homeopaths being wrong in the explanations but right in the results (well, sometimes). That's how homeopaths work, after all. ;-) You said it's on-topic :) Chris
Re: Perhaps a stupid couple of questions
Thomas Lunde wrote: (snip) As I look at the ads of training schools, I do not see an offers for training to become a Y2K correction specialist and most courses in their outlines do not even mention the need to become expert in Y2K problems. Second question - what is going on in the training field to supply those capable enough to work on this problem. I would appreciate some thoughts on these questions. Respectfully, Thomas Lunde Denial Tom, That cigarette won't give you Cancer, just the other guy. REH
Re: microwave ovens (was Re: FW A very thought-provoking paper)
Christoph Reuss wrote: Let's analyze this (it does fit together): Conventional ovens heat the food from outside to inside, so the pathogens INside ground meat survive if you don't cook it long enough. Microwave ovens heat the food from inside to outside, so the pathogens on the _surface_ survive if you don't cook it long enough (and on most food _except_ ground meats, most of the pathogens are on the surface, hence my point 1). Thus, it does make sense to PRE-cook ground meats in the microwave (killing the pathogens INside) and then cook it regularly. See, "the devil is in the details"... ;-) Like you say, but all of the foods that I have in my kitchen and thedirections in the Micro-wave states that food should be left for a few minutes, before removing. It seems that the heat comes to the outside. But the main issue for me was with meat that has the pathogens ground into the center. I've learned to be afraid of pink hamburger. Something that is pointed out in Dr. Michael Arnott's book on Breast Cancer is that cooking in the oven or on the stove creates carcinogens that contribute to breast cancer in women. Not the case in the Micro-wave. So choose your poison.I still prefer fresh, organic tasty food. The Micro- wave doesn't deliver on that one.And my daughter is much improved, in school, doing three hour a night homework assignments and happy. Hey what's wrong with that? (snip) Well, it's an open secret that "mainstream" docs have virtually no idea of nutrition and prevention. This is a structural problem in their education. No it's a structural problem with the double-blind testing method and theprivate enterprise system that is only rewarded AFTER you get sick. They have an investment in your being ill! Your criticism of the medical system is perfectly valid on that account. However, your homeopath seemed to imply that enzymes survive in conventional cooking but not in microwave cooking, which was a wrong interpretation. Well, he is a five-star French chef. Maybe there was something lost in thetranslation. I'll check it out with him. But even my stomach doesn't enjoy the food from the Micro-wave either. Kind of like cooking in old grease at the stomach level. I keep the Zantac close by. I've heard similar stories on homeopaths being wrong in the explanations but right in the results (well, sometimes). That's how homeopaths work, after all. ;-) I once had a heart surgeon tell me that 800 IUs of vitamin E was bad for me and could harm my internal organs. (note that they now recommend that amount and above for healthy hearts). I asked my heart surgeon of the time about the right amount and he said he would check with a specialist but he knew that I was wrong. The issue of healing one's self and taking care by practicing healthy prevention practices seems to be the only answer given the future of medical work in these times. Especially for folks like myself without personal medical coverage.I draw attention to Brian's post for the rest. But this issue of the medical Doctor's needing to be a businessman, according to Wall Street, and having a vested interest in creating a market by making you sick in order to need him is a little wierd, don't you think? You don't believe me? Remember it was business that came up with the idea of "planned obsolescence." And yes I do believe that it is on topic. It's all work and definitely a problem of the future. Economically, I wish the economists on the list would explain the economics of being a Doctor given the current climate both in the U.S. and Canada. It don't make sense! (idiomatic Oklahoma speech with a nasel twang like Garth.) REH
Re: FW A very thought-provoking paper
Brian McAndrews wrote: (snip) I remember reading an article where a leading researcher in chemotherapy developed cancer and chose not to go through the standard chemo process. He said he knew too much. Education's a B__! as they say here on the streets of NYCity.Thanks for the Hillerman. That is what I was taught ceremonies are about. I'm not superstitious, I'm just a Priest. Our way of saying your Wittgenstein quote is "Walk in Beauty." REH Tony Hillerman has a beautiful section in one of his Jim Chee, Joe Leaphorn Navaho mystery novels. Chee tells a white friend that he would be doing a healing ceremony over the weekend for an old Navaho women who was dying. The white friend inquires on the following Monday if the healing ceremony had been successful. Chee says yes. The white friend, somewhat bewildered, asks if she wasn't going to die. Chee replies of course she is. The healing ceremony was 'successful' because the old woman and her family found peace and acceptance through the sacred ritual. Helps me with Wittgenstein's aphorism: 'Ethics and Aesthetics are one' ** * Brian McAndrews, Practicum Coordinator* * Faculty of Education, Queen's University * * Kingston, Ontario K7L 3N6 * * FAX:(613) 533-6307 Phone (613) 533-6000x74937* * e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]* * "Ethics and aesthetics are one"* * Wittgenstein * ** ** **
Re: Perhaps a stupid couple of questions
I'm not a computer person, Thomas, but I have been reading a great deal about the y2k problem, and one of my sons is in the computer industry. I can't tell you for sure why there are no ads. I would guess that each organization sets up its own y2k assessment program and then calls in outside help if they believe they need it. I am told that y2k consultants are making a killing. I don't think it is something that a three-month training program would prepare one for. Apparently older programmers are now much in demand because many of the programs were written in the now disused languages of COBOL and FORTRAN. I guess more is involved than just replacing a two-digit date field with a four-digit one. I heard one programmer discussing it on radio several months ago, and he said that often when they find a date field, it's difficult to understand how the routine containing it interacts with other parts of the program. The work has been automated to some extent by software that will search for date fields, but it still has to be checked manually. Live long and prosper Victor Milne Pat Gottlieb FIGHT THE BASTARDS! An anti-neoconservative website at http://www3.sympatico.ca/pat-vic/pat-vic/ LONESOME ACRES RIDING STABLE at http://www3.sympatico.ca/pat-vic/ -Original Message- From: Thomas Lunde [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Global List [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Future Work [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: February 08, 1999 4:50 PM Subject: Perhaps a stupid couple of questions I'm reading the Globe and Mail today and on the editorial page there is an article from Alberta. Now it seems that Chris Stockman - a cabinet minister of something, asked for quotes to fix the medical computers re Y2K and he was given a number of estimates in the $250 million dollar range. The article pointed out that Chris had suggested that original equipment manufacturers should bear some of the costs as they originally sold this equipment with no warning of the downside - ie the Y2K problem, citing as precedent, the tobacco industry payments to various States for the medical problems caused by tobacco which they concealed. Now, aside from the astronomical sum - and bear in mind this is only to fix the medical computers - the thought occurred to me that, every newspaper in the country should be filled with ads for qualified personnel to work on these and other systems, and yet when I read the technical want ads, I have yet to see an add for personnel to work on Y2K problems. As this correction is basically a labour problem, not a capital equipment problem, where is the demand for all these people to use up the $250 million that is being asked for? That is question # 1 Now, assuming a shortage of qualified personnel, I would expect every training institute in the country to be offering courses in programming languages to get people up to speed to work on Y2K problems. As most of the work, I have read, requires no great programming skill, rather it is the reading of millions of lines of code looking for date sensitive code and then applying replacement code, it would seem to me that many people could be trained in a 3 month course to be a mini specialist in some aspect of a computer language. As I look at the ads of training schools, I do not see an offers for training to become a Y2K correction specialist and most courses in their outlines do not even mention the need to become expert in Y2K problems. Second question - what is going on in the training field to supply those capable enough to work on this problem. I would appreciate some thoughts on these questions. Respectfully, Thomas Lunde
