Re: (Humor) Microsoft Democracy(TM)
Classless society happened before surplus was produced, and yes it was probably very cruel. The point is that it must have been successful, nevertheless, in establishing more and more stable and numerous human populations. It is an example for a classless society. We made our spiral of development over 100k years as homo sapiens - we are ready to use such efficient looking scenario again - this time without the cruelty and the fear of the unknown world - on a totally different conscious level. Eva Eva: Classless society happened to humans for 100K + years, our relatively short written history chronicled only the class society that also happened to us - with it's exploitation, privilege, cruelty, etc. You can believe that if you like, but I doubt very much that the first 100K of human were without class and cruelty. But then of course none of us were present, so how can we know? Incidentally, there is a very good novel written on the theme of prehistoric cleverness and cruelty -- Willian Golding's "The Inheritors", which deals with an encounter between Neanderthal and modern man. Golding is better known for "Lord of the Flies", which carries a somewhat similar message, though the setting is modern. Believe me, I too would like to believe that a series of social transformations, such as going from hunting and gathering to agriculture and thence to industry, accounts for the class system and resultant exploitation. But I really have no evidence that exploitation did not exist in earlier systems. And not only that. It is people themselves who brought about the transformations, and for their own ends. That is, the class system was not imposed on us by aliens from outer space. We created it, probably a very long time ago, and amplified and broadened it each time some new innovation made it possible to do so. Hunters were displaced by farmers, and farmers by industrialists, and each time those who were displaced became the lumpenproletariat who had to work for the farmers or the industrialists. Perhaps the driving cause is our need to invent and innovate, but that is something that we can't help doing. It is a consequence of having large brains and opposable thumbs, or some such thing. Ed Weick
Re: (Humor) Microsoft Democracy(TM)
Satire aside, it is obvious that fully developed direct electronic democracy is just a few years away. And we can expect the computer companies to develop special software to accommodate it. And we can expect the computer hackers to develop special software to fake the votes. Like video telephones, electronic voting is a technical solution that won't be feasible due to the "human factor". Yes, you're right, it could only worked if power and privilages were not involved in the decision-making process and all the channels of information were totally transparent for everyone. Guess what - this means an alternative social structure... Eva --Chris
Re: (Humor) Microsoft Democracy(TM)
FWP wrote: Satire aside, it is obvious that fully developed direct electronic democracy is just a few years away. And we can expect the computer companies to develop special software to accommodate it. And we can expect the computer hackers to develop special software to fake the votes. Like video telephones, electronic voting is a technical solution that won't be feasible due to the "human factor". --Chris
Re: (Humor) Microsoft Democracy(TM)
Satire aside, it is obvious that fully developed direct electronic democracy is just a few years away. And we can expect the computer companies to develop special software to accommodate it. And we can expect the computer hackers to develop special software to fake the votes. Like video telephones, electronic voting is a technical solution that won't be feasible due to the "human factor". Yes, you're right, it could only worked if power and privilages were not involved in the decision-making process and all the channels of information were totally transparent for everyone. Guess what - this means an alternative social structure... Eva I guess we'll have to wait till we get to heaven. Throughout human history, many social structures have been tried, and power and privilege have existed in all of them. I fail to understand how can anyone can believe that our essential nature as humans - part angel, part brute, part compassionate, part cruel, part intelligent and thoughful, part stupid and cruel, essentially tribal - can be changed simply by altering the institutions through which we work as societies. How much proof do we need that we are what we are? Ed Weick
Re: (Humor) Microsoft Democracy(TM)
Eva wrote: And we can expect the computer hackers to develop special software to fake the votes. Like video telephones, electronic voting is a technical solution that won't be feasible due to the "human factor". Yes, you're right, it could only worked if power and privilages were not involved in the decision-making process and all the channels of information were totally transparent for everyone. Guess what - this means an alternative social structure... Would anyone _want_ all the channels of information to be totally transparent for everyone ? Would you want that everyone can see what you vote ? (Given your exhibitionism on the list, it seems you do, but you can't seriously expect that from everyone.) Anyway, you missed the point. Even if "all the channels of information were totally transparent for everyone", there would be technical ways to fake the electronic votes. And what about those without internet access ? Would you exclude them from voting ? You elitist, you. ;-) Feasibility and transparency aside, electronic voting is the "prototype" of an Orwellian "1984" society... (not only if the software is from M$) --Chris
Re: (Humor) Microsoft Democracy(TM)
Yes, you're right, it could only worked if power and privilages were not involved in the decision-making process and all the channels of information were totally transparent for everyone. Guess what - this means an alternative social structure... Eva I guess we'll have to wait till we get to heaven. Throughout human history, many social structures have been tried, and power and privilege have existed in all of them. I fail to understand how can anyone can believe that our essential nature as humans - part angel, part brute, part compassionate, part cruel, part intelligent and thoughful, part stupid and cruel, essentially tribal - can be changed simply by altering the institutions through which we work as societies. How much proof do we need that we are what we are? Classless society happened to humans for 100K + years, our relatively short written history chronicled only the class society that also happened to us - with it's exploitation, privilege, cruelty, etc. I cannot see why we couldn't make it again - this time because we want to and can. We all prefer to be intelligent, trying to be compassionate, thoughtful etc. and when we cannot control those animal behaviours we call ourself "inhumane" or even "animal" so why should should we aim to live down to this model if it is not absolutely necessary? Who says it is? I don't know about you, but in my getting to be longish life I haven't met people who aimed at the "animal" category. And I travelled quite widely. Eva Ed Weick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: (Humor) Microsoft Democracy(TM)
Eva: Classless society happened to humans for 100K + years, our relatively short written history chronicled only the class society that also happened to us - with it's exploitation, privilege, cruelty, etc. You can believe that if you like, but I doubt very much that the first 100K of human were without class and cruelty. But then of course none of us were present, so how can we know? Incidentally, there is a very good novel written on the theme of prehistoric cleverness and cruelty -- Willian Golding's "The Inheritors", which deals with an encounter between Neanderthal and modern man. Golding is better known for "Lord of the Flies", which carries a somewhat similar message, though the setting is modern. Believe me, I too would like to believe that a series of social transformations, such as going from hunting and gathering to agriculture and thence to industry, accounts for the class system and resultant exploitation. But I really have no evidence that exploitation did not exist in earlier systems. And not only that. It is people themselves who brought about the transformations, and for their own ends. That is, the class system was not imposed on us by aliens from outer space. We created it, probably a very long time ago, and amplified and broadened it each time some new innovation made it possible to do so. Hunters were displaced by farmers, and farmers by industrialists, and each time those who were displaced became the lumpenproletariat who had to work for the farmers or the industrialists. Perhaps the driving cause is our need to invent and innovate, but that is something that we can't help doing. It is a consequence of having large brains and opposable thumbs, or some such thing. Ed Weick
Re: (Humor) Microsoft Democracy(TM)
Satire aside, it is obvious that fully developed direct electronic democracy is just a few years away. And we can expect the computer companies to develop special software to accommodate it. FWP. On Wed, 24 Feb 1999, Christoph Reuss wrote: [From a Polish website, http://www.ch.uj.edu.pl/msfc/19.html ] Microsoft Announces Microsoft Democracy Microsoft has unveiled today Microsoft Democracy, a freeware that will be widely available from next month, and included in Windows 96, the Company's latest operating system, to be released later this year. Microsoft Democracy will enable any Windows-based computer user to vote from his home, for any election, including presidential. For new Windows users, Microsoft Democracy will come installed automatically with Windows 96, without any human intervention needed. The system will use the Microsoft Network to connect to governmental databases in order to register these new on-line votes. Users will simply have to click on the icon of the candidate of their choice on the day of the election, and voting procedure will be fully automatic. Detractors say it is not fair that the system only includes Bill Gates' own icon on startup, but even though the Company wouldn't comment officially, sources close to Microsoft say that it should be possible to vote for candidates other than Bill Gates with to-be-released upgrades. These upgrades should include all the candidates for a given election, and should be available at least a week before each election, for as low as $99.99 (again, voting with just the initial version will be possible anytime). In these upgrades, candidate names of more than five characters will also be possible, sources say. Opponents also complain that installation with Windows 96 is invisible, and that some users may not be aware that MS Democracy has been installed, and is running in their computer. To that, Microsoft opposes that installation is automatic by default, in order to simplify human interventions; automatic operation is clearly explained in the MS Democracy User's Manual, available on-line through MSN, or on the Internet. Also, the user can turn off default voting, just by clicking the "Don't always vote for default candidate" box, in the Custom Installation / Other Settings / MS Democracy / Advanced Options sub-menu during Windows 96 installation. Every voter using the system for the first time will receive a free CD-ROM biography of Bill Gates (MS Dangerous Creatures). The company expects to distribute 150 million copies of the basic software, and about 500 upgrades within the first year. *** [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send "Subscribe Future.Cities" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] See http://users.uniserve.com/~culturex ***
