Re: FVWM: GSoc backup mentor

2012-02-27 Thread Dan Espen
Thomas Adam  writes:

> Hey Dan,
>
> I'm in the process of filling out the forms so that FVWM can participate.
> In doing so they want the ID of the backup mentor -- I recall you said
> you're willing.  Is that still the case?

Yes.

> If so, would you mind registering yourself here?
>
> http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/homepage/google/gsoc2012
>
> I'll need your ID when you're done so I can shove it in the form and then
> that will allow me to complete the particulars.

Am I the only one that can't figure out those Captchas?
I'll send it when I get it.

-- 
Dan Espen



Re: FVWM: "target group" and "elite" are different concepts

2012-02-27 Thread Thomas Adam
On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 09:28:27PM +0100, Michael Großer wrote:
> I think, this is the wrong message! The association in the heads
> of people out there shouldn't be "that nobody uses anymore?" but
> rather "the window manager that people prefer who are looking for
> power rather than for gimmicks".

See -- as soon as you start out on this premise, you end up doing the very
thing which is ultimately going to be any project's downfall; pigeonholing,
and then entering in to competitions with other WMs/DEs, just because you've
made those statements.

You can try and justify it all you like, but as soon as you try and justify
the general consensus of a few people who think in the negative way you
assume is the prevalent attitude, then you're forever fighting a losing
battle, because those people have already made up their minds.  Trying to
turn that on its head and then assume capturing new users can be done
through shoving the needs of those users into different boxes is called
GNOME.

Let people make up their own minds in the time-honoured way -- by trying
things for themselves.  We'll help them when/if they get stuck, as we always
do.

-- Thomas Adam

-- 
"Deep in my heart I wish I was wrong.  But deep in my heart I know I am
not." -- Morrissey ("Girl Least Likely To" -- off of Viva Hate.)



FVWM: "target group" and "elite" are different concepts

2012-02-27 Thread Michael Großer
Thomas Adam wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 10:54:25AM +0100, Michael Großer wrote:
>> Dan Espen wrote:
>> >  writes:
>> >> Perhaps I'm making a bad
>> >> assumption. Is increased usership a goal of the FVWM development team? 
>> > 
>> > Fvwm is for users that want complete control of their desktop with
>> > minimal resource use and ultimate flexibility.
>> > 
>> 
>> "http://www.fvwm.org"; should contain a link "target group" to a page
>> with such kind of definition.
> 
> God no.  FVWM is not elitist.  People will either use it, or not.  People
> can have ideas, and do.  People will have opinions and share them.  Or not.
> But if/when they do, we'll discuss them, and sometimes good things come of
> them.
> 
> This isn't endemic to this project, and other projects have many more
> opinions floating around.  Just look at OpenBSD for that.
> 
> -- Thomas Adam

Initially, I didn't intend to speak verbosely to explain strategic way of 
thinking.
But, now there seem to be at least two people who misread my thoughts.

Let me explain:
I simply define a target group as a group of people who all have the same
class of wants (the same wishes, the same issues and the same desires).
This is not elitist. A target group can also be a group of people who belong to
the underclass according to my definition, and an underclass surely can't be
considered as an elite.

"Elite" and "target group" are defined that differently.

Take my example: I want my computer to be powerful. Since 1992/1993
I wanted complete control of each computer I owned. I expect my
computers to be powerful, efficient and quick. With these demands,
I have some kind of interest profile. Together with other people who
share the same interest profile, I constitute a "target group".

The homepage of "www.fvwm.org" starts with this sentence:
> FVWM is an extremely powerful ICCCM-compliant multiple
> virtual desktop window manager for the X  Window system.

When I read this, then I think: "Extremely powerful? Yes, this
is what I'm looking for! Multiple virtual desktops? Hey! This
is the whole idea what makes a computer useable for me!"

But, people who don't open the first page of "www.fvwm.org"
know nothing of this. When I mention "FVWM" somewhere, people
say: "FVWM? Is this the old window manager that nobody uses
anymore?"

I think, this is the wrong message! The association in the heads
of people out there shouldn't be "that nobody uses anymore?" but
rather "the window manager that people prefer who are looking for
power rather than for gimmicks".

Here,
http://www.jumping-blue-turtle.com/online-shop/0005_lenny/debian/fvwm/index.html
I tried to explain (in my native language) why FVWM is better
than other solutions:

- FVWM is fast
  - other solutions are heavyweight and unnecessarily plump

- FVWM is powerful
  - other solutions are castrated (restricted) and close-minded

- FVWM is functional
  - other solutions aim for gimmicks and optical dalliance

- FVWM is for working people
  - other solutions frustrate

- FVWM can be downright programmed
  - other solutions can't be used without a mouse

People who agree with all the statements in that table
constitue the target group of that web page. People
who do not agree simply belong to other target groups.

The only drawbacks of that page are that it is in German
and that I want money there. Both aspects will change
later.

If the FVWM community would manage the trick to bring
the message "FVWM is for people who are looking for
power" even into the heads of non-FVWM users, then all
the people who indeed are looking for these qualities
would take notice of FVWM, and this would bring the
FVWM community a new kind of momentum.

This is a simple message: The more clearly the FVWM
project communicates these values the more people who
actually share these values will be attracted by this
project.

OK, I really spoke verbosely now. I hope, somebody
will understand this idea better than before.

I don't want to bother you any further with that if
nobody is interested. Just seize this idea or forget it.

- Michael -




Re: FVWM: GSoC 2012: Project ideas

2012-02-27 Thread Tethys .
2012/2/24 Thomas Adam :

> God no.  FVWM is not elitist.  People will either use it, or not.  People
> can have ideas, and do.  People will have opinions and share them.  Or not.
> But if/when they do, we'll discuss them, and sometimes good things come of
> them.
>
> This isn't endemic to this project, and other projects have many more
> opinions floating around.  Just look at OpenBSD for that.

A poor example, I feel. I agree that FVWM isn't elitist. But I'd have
to say the OpenBSD project really *is*. Hell, I've only been using
Unix for 25 years. But I was still told I wasn't the sort of user they
wanted because I happened to ask about something they didn't approve
of on openbsd-misc.

Tet

-- 
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