Re: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power
- A quest for excellence - Scale your ideas - Code less, Develop better - Quality meets Results - The first brick of wisdom -- *From:* Wil Sinclair [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* 16 April 2008 21:59 *To:* Robert Castley; fw-general@lists.zend.com *Subject:* RE: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power Whoa- thanks for pointing the Mambo thing out. I didn't realize there was another popular PHP project out there with such a similar tagline. Robert must be a great mind- we think alike. ;D OK, that's one good reason to start rotating out the taglines. BTW, I like 'ZF – Simply Fly'. Very unconventional from a marketing standpoint, but when you get it, it seems to stick somehow. Why not OOP's, we did it again for the next big release? This would play well with the Britney Spears fan contingent of our users. OK, bad joke. No need for the -1's. J ,Wil *From:* Robert Castley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* Wednesday, April 16, 2008 1:44 PM *To:* fw-general@lists.zend.com *Subject:* RE: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power Couldn't resist! OOP's, it got easier! Wrap up some PHP this insert season, festive holiday etc Simplify the complex! BTW, Power in Simplicity was the slogan I came up with for Mambo! -- *From:* Robert Castley *Sent:* 16 April 2008 21:26 *To:* fw-general@lists.zend.com *Subject:* RE: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power After a glass of red or two:- Why Symphony, when you can simply-fly with ZF? (pun on Simplfy) Looking at the above: ZF - Simply Fly! Strengthen your foundations! Web 2.0 ... PHP 5.0 (like football/soccer scores!) I could go on, but I will probably be barred from the list! This email has been scanned for all known viruses by the MessageLabs Email Security Service and the Macro 4 plc internal virus protection system. This email has been scanned for all known viruses by the MessageLabs Email Security Service and the Macro 4 plc internal virus protection system. This email has been scanned for all known viruses by the MessageLabs Email Security Service and the Macro 4 plc internal virus protection system. This email has been scanned for all known viruses by the MessageLabs Email Security Service and the Macro 4 plc internal virus protection system. This email has been scanned for all known viruses by the MessageLabs Email Security Service and the Macro 4 plc internal virus protection system.
RE: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power
For the record, I work for an Enterprise and would choose no other framework for our work here, even though I'm a fan of other frameworks. And while it has been overused, I believe the connotation for most people is that Enterprise means lots of employees helping the company generate lots of revenue. In the US these would be your Fortune 1000 companies. Just my take on the word I guess. But then again... we lost the word 'hacker' to misuse as well... -- Eric Marden From: Bradley Holt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 3:34 PM To: Joó Ádám Cc: Eric Marden; fw-general@lists.zend.com Subject: Re: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power Ugh, what the heck is the word enterprise http://terrychay.com/blog/article/enterprise-scalability.shtml suppose to mean in this context, anyways? I'd attempt to actively avoid the following buzzwords, especially in slogans: * enterprise * web 2.0 * agile (this one isn't quite as bad as it has a more clear definition) These buzzwords can mean many things to different people so don't really communicate much when used in a slogan. With enterprise, for example, I doubt the majority of ZF users in-fact work in an enterprise-size company. Enterprises may, in fact, be the target market for the commercial end of ZF. However, we have a vague notion that if it's for enterprise it must be good. But, since we don't work for an enterprise-size company, we don't really know what those aspects are so not much is really communicated here other than, it's good which doesn't carry much substance. In other words, if your truly saying enterprise to directly target actual enterprise-size companies, that's fine. But it comes across more as targeting those of us who don't work at an enterprise-size company but think that it must be good if it's good for enterprises. I think there are a lot of great things to be said about ZF that are more substantive. On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 3:12 PM, Joó Ádám [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My favourite is Enterprise-strength PHP. Regards, Ádám -- Bradley Holt [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power
Eric, Great to hear from an actual enterprise ZF user! I'm not at all surprised to see ZF used in the enterprise and to hear that there isn't much competition to ZF in this space. Just because (in my guess) the majority of ZF users are not enterprise users doesn't mean that enterprise users aren't a *very important* group of ZF users. I totally understand that ZF has a commercial aspect and that it's target audience (at least on the commercial end) is the enterprise and that hopefully it's use in the enterprise will help drive it's continued improvement. It's just that I dislike when the word enterprise is used as a catch-all phrase. Like I said, if the word enterprise is used in a context where it truly is meant to speak to enterprise users (not us little guys to impress us with how enterprisey it is) then I see that as being perfectly fine. On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 10:15 AM, Eric Marden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For the record, I work for an Enterprise and would choose no other framework for our work here, even though I'm a fan of other frameworks. And while it has been overused, I believe the connotation for most people is that Enterprise means lots of employees helping the company generate lots of revenue. In the US these would be your Fortune 1000 companies. Just my take on the word I guess. But then again... we lost the word 'hacker' to misuse as well... -- Eric Marden -- *From:* Bradley Holt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* Wednesday, April 16, 2008 3:34 PM *To:* Joó Ádám *Cc:* Eric Marden; fw-general@lists.zend.com *Subject:* Re: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power Ugh, what the heck is the word enterprisehttp://terrychay.com/blog/article/enterprise-scalability.shtmlsuppose to mean in this context, anyways? I'd attempt to actively avoid the following buzzwords, especially in slogans: - enterprise - web 2.0 - agile (this one isn't *quite* as bad as it has a more clear definition) These buzzwords can mean many things to different people so don't really communicate much when used in a slogan. With enterprise, for example, I doubt the majority of ZF users in-fact work in an enterprise-size company. Enterprises may, in fact, be the target market for the *commercial* end of ZF. However, we have a vague notion that if it's for enterprise it must be good. But, since we don't work for an enterprise-size company, we don't really know what those aspects are so not much is really communicated here other than, it's good which doesn't carry much substance. In other words, if your truly saying enterprise to *directly* target actual enterprise-size companies, that's fine. But it comes across more as targeting those of us who don't work at an enterprise-size company but think that it must be good if it's good for enterprises. I think there are a lot of great things to be said about ZF that are more substantive. On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 3:12 PM, Joó Ádám [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My favourite is Enterprise-strength PHP. Regards, Ádám -- Bradley Holt [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Bradley Holt [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power
I totally understand that ZF has a commercial aspect and that it's target audience (at least on the commercial end) is the enterprise and that hopefully it's use in the enterprise will help drive it's continued improvement. Indeed. I'm making the push for us to adopt more of this support for group, at least the new Zend Studio for Eclipse, which is super rad by the way. So hopefully we can support more in the future, other than just working with it and participating in the community. :) -- Eric Marden From: Bradley Holt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:32 AM To: Eric Marden Cc: fw-general@lists.zend.com Subject: Re: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power Eric, Great to hear from an actual enterprise ZF user! I'm not at all surprised to see ZF used in the enterprise and to hear that there isn't much competition to ZF in this space. Just because (in my guess) the majority of ZF users are not enterprise users doesn't mean that enterprise users aren't a very important group of ZF users. I totally understand that ZF has a commercial aspect and that it's target audience (at least on the commercial end) is the enterprise and that hopefully it's use in the enterprise will help drive it's continued improvement. It's just that I dislike when the word enterprise is used as a catch-all phrase. Like I said, if the word enterprise is used in a context where it truly is meant to speak to enterprise users (not us little guys to impress us with how enterprisey it is) then I see that as being perfectly fine. On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 10:15 AM, Eric Marden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For the record, I work for an Enterprise and would choose no other framework for our work here, even though I'm a fan of other frameworks. And while it has been overused, I believe the connotation for most people is that Enterprise means lots of employees helping the company generate lots of revenue. In the US these would be your Fortune 1000 companies. Just my take on the word I guess. But then again... we lost the word 'hacker' to misuse as well... -- Eric Marden From: Bradley Holt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 3:34 PM To: Joó Ádám Cc: Eric Marden; fw-general@lists.zend.com Subject: Re: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power Ugh, what the heck is the word enterprise http://terrychay.com/blog/article/enterprise-scalability.shtml suppose to mean in this context, anyways? I'd attempt to actively avoid the following buzzwords, especially in slogans: * enterprise * web 2.0 * agile (this one isn't quite as bad as it has a more clear definition) These buzzwords can mean many things to different people so don't really communicate much when used in a slogan. With enterprise, for example, I doubt the majority of ZF users in-fact work in an enterprise-size company. Enterprises may, in fact, be the target market for the commercial end of ZF. However, we have a vague notion that if it's for enterprise it must be good. But, since we don't work for an enterprise-size company, we don't really know what those aspects are so not much is really communicated here other than, it's good which doesn't carry much substance. In other words, if your truly saying enterprise to directly target actual enterprise-size companies, that's fine. But it comes across more as targeting those of us who don't work at an enterprise-size company but think that it must be good if it's good for enterprises. I think there are a lot of great things to be said about ZF that are more substantive. On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 3:12 PM, Joó Ádám [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My favourite is Enterprise-strength PHP. Regards, Ádám -- Bradley Holt [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Bradley Holt [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power
I see what you are trying to say, but it should be no comma there or John, meet Sue makes no sense in this translation. Again - the John, meet Sue sounds funny by itself when referring to people ( it is out of context )and it sounds even more incorrect when applying to abstract or programming framework. It just looks unfinished...thats all... On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 11:01 AM, Josh Team [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am pretty sure they are not describing the framework as Simplicity Meets Power but introducing Simplicity to Power. John, meet Sue Simplicity, Meet Power On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 9:52 AM, Martin Martinov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not an expert in English, but Wil already posted the reasoning behind this wording. Search the archives :-) On 16/04/2008, photo312 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can someone fix it - it kind of looks embarrassing... the saying should be:Simplicity Meets Power -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Simplicity-Meets-Power-and-not-Simplicity%2C-Meets-Power-tp16722510p16722510.html Sent from the Zend Framework mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Regards, Martin Martinov http://mmartinov.com/
Re: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power
Yea there should be no , that just does not make sense as it translates into John and meet Sue John meet Sue sounds more proper On Apr 16, 2008, at 11:42 AM, Paul Mark wrote: I see what you are trying to say, but it should be no comma there or John, meet Sue makes no sense in this translation. Again - the John, meet Sue sounds funny by itself when referring to people ( it is out of context )and it sounds even more incorrect when applying to abstract or programming framework. It just looks unfinished...thats all... On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 11:01 AM, Josh Team [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am pretty sure they are not describing the framework as Simplicity Meets Power but introducing Simplicity to Power. John, meet Sue Simplicity, Meet Power On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 9:52 AM, Martin Martinov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not an expert in English, but Wil already posted the reasoning behind this wording. Search the archives :-) On 16/04/2008, photo312 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can someone fix it - it kind of looks embarrassing... the saying should be:Simplicity Meets Power -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Simplicity-Meets-Power-and-not-Simplicity%2C-Meets-Power-tp16722510p16722510.html Sent from the Zend Framework mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Regards, Martin Martinov http://mmartinov.com/
Re: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power
On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 5:40 PM, David Rogers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 16, 2008, at 1:03 PM, Wil Sinclair wrote: Please feel free to throw out ideas here. I would like to suggest you try to aggregate all your suggestions in one mail, however, so that we don't create too much non-technical traffic. And, of course, if we were to use a slogan suggested by a member of the community, we'd have to make sure Zend held the copyright and could trademark it if necessary. It Doesn't Suck. (:D) Agile AND Flexible. ...and it doesn't suck. :D It doesn't suck implies that other frameworks do suck, and even though one might argue that to be the case ( ;-) ), I think it'd be more appropriate to promote ZF's own benefits. David -- Vincent
Re: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power
On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 6:26 PM, David Rogers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hopefully everyone else found this more funny than serious. The Agile AND Flexible motto was my serious suggestion. Come on, V, get hip, man...! ;) Hehe, sorry :) (It's not that I've got no humour, just that I've used up all my humour points today because I enjoy laughing so much ;-) -- Vincent
RE: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power
I thought David’s suggestions were funny *and* I completely agree with Vincent. In fact, I’ve been very careful to never criticize other frameworks when extolling the virtues of ZF. After all, we have strong empirical evidence that CakePHP, RoR, Symfony, etc.- even Java and .Net stacks- don’t suck. If they did, few people would use them for new projects as there are plenty of free alternatives. It’s just that every framework seems to have its sweet spots. Here are some other slogan’s we threw out when we were thinking about the new site: 100% Opinionated Software- *Your* Opinion (Bad wording, but you get the idea. If anyone can capture this in a better 5-10 word slogan please let me know.) Backed by the Biggest Name in PHP Our Components are Optional, Our Quality Isn’t Trade In your Trade Offs Extreme Simplicity (Used from the beginning of the project, but I’m not a big fan. I don’t see simplicity by itself as a good differentiator for ZF; if we’re compared to RoR and clones solely on the dimension of simplicity, we’d lose every time- at least for now.) Enterprise-strength PHP OK, I couldn’t remember all of them so I made up a couple on the spot. But I’m allowed to be creative on this thread, too. :D ,Wil From: Vincent [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 10:46 AM Cc: fw-general@lists.zend.com Subject: Re: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 5:40 PM, David Rogers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 16, 2008, at 1:03 PM, Wil Sinclair wrote: Please feel free to throw out ideas here. I would like to suggest you try to aggregate all your suggestions in one mail, however, so that we don't create too much non-technical traffic. And, of course, if we were to use a slogan suggested by a member of the community, we'd have to make sure Zend held the copyright and could trademark it if necessary. It Doesn't Suck. (:D) Agile AND Flexible. ...and it doesn't suck. :D It doesn't suck implies that other frameworks do suck, and even though one might argue that to be the case ( ;-) ), I think it'd be more appropriate to promote ZF's own benefits. David -- Vincent
Re: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power
Just to throw out my thoughts, I liked these the best Backed by the Biggest Name in PHP Our Components are Optional, Our Quality Isn’t Trade In your Trade Offs On Apr 16, 2008, at 2:50 PM, Wil Sinclair wrote: Backed by the Biggest Name in PHP Our Components are Optional, Our Quality Isn’t Trade In your Trade Offs
RE: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power
Trade In your Trade Offs +1 for this one. -- Eric Marden From: Joseph Crawford [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 2:57 PM To: Wil Sinclair Cc: Vincent; fw-general@lists.zend.com Subject: Re: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power Just to throw out my thoughts, I liked these the best Backed by the Biggest Name in PHP Our Components are Optional, Our Quality Isn't Trade In your Trade Offs On Apr 16, 2008, at 2:50 PM, Wil Sinclair wrote: Backed by the Biggest Name in PHP Our Components are Optional, Our Quality Isn't Trade In your Trade Offs
Re: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power
Wil, Not that I think there's anything wrong with the existing slogan, but since you asked for ideas... My first thought is that you're trying to communicate simplicity, so your slogan should be simple as well. Looking at the Why ZF?http://framework.zend.com/whyzf/page gives a few keywords that nicely describe the positive aspects of ZF. Perhaps something as simple as: simplicity, power, productivity or, getting a tad bit clever: simply powerful productivity or, risking complexity: simplicity, power, and productivity for building your web applications or, a different approach all-together: from the PHP company On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 1:03 PM, Wil Sinclair [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wow. I didn't think this would be such a point of discussion. I hope I can settle this once and for all. It is proper English- meet is imperative; Simplicity is directly addressing simplicity by name as if it were a person. Take it from someone who double majored in Comparative Literature and Computer Science in college. J In any case, this tagline was never meant to be permanent or the sole slogan associated with ZF. The main point was trying to express ZF's philosophy in a short- hopefully memorable-slogan. In doing so, we hoped to differentiate ZF from the other frameworks and give it a face. Other slogans were brought up that we may use in the future, perhaps even alongside this one. **But I'd really like to hear what you guys might come up with** for two reasons: 1) We might end up with some very good slogans to use later. and 2) I'm extremely curious what our community see as the differentiators for ZF and what ZF means to all of us. Please feel free to throw out ideas here. I would like to suggest you try to aggregate all your suggestions in one mail, however, so that we don't create too much non-technical traffic. And, of course, if we were to use a slogan suggested by a member of the community, we'd have to make sure Zend held the copyright and could trademark it if necessary. ,Wil *From:* Robin Skoglund [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* Wednesday, April 16, 2008 9:23 AM *To:* fw-general@lists.zend.com *Subject:* Re: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power I don't know what English courses you guys have taken, but a comma does not translate into the word and. It simply states there should be a brief pause before continuing, whereas John meet Sue sounds rushed. Simplcity, Meet Power is an excellent slogan in my mind :) On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 6:05 PM, Joseph Crawford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yea there should be no , that just does not make sense as it translates into John and meet Sue John meet Sue sounds more proper On Apr 16, 2008, at 11:42 AM, Paul Mark wrote: I see what you are trying to say, but it should be no comma there or John, meet Sue makes no sense in this translation. Again - the John, meet Sue sounds funny by itself when referring to people ( it is out of context )and it sounds even more incorrect when applying to abstract or programming framework. It just looks unfinished...thats all... On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 11:01 AM, Josh Team [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am pretty sure they are not describing the framework as Simplicity Meets Power but introducing Simplicity to Power. John, meet Sue Simplicity, Meet Power On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 9:52 AM, Martin Martinov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not an expert in English, but Wil already posted the reasoning behind this wording. Search the archives :-) On 16/04/2008, photo312 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can someone fix it - it kind of looks embarrassing... the saying should be:Simplicity Meets Power -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Simplicity-Meets-Power-and-not-Simplicity%2C-Meets-Power-tp16722510p16722510.html Sent from the Zend Framework mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Regards, Martin Martinov http://mmartinov.com/ -- Bradley Holt [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power
My favourite is Enterprise-strength PHP. Regards, Ádám
Re: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power
Ugh, what the heck is the word enterprisehttp://terrychay.com/blog/article/enterprise-scalability.shtmlsuppose to mean in this context, anyways? I'd attempt to actively avoid the following buzzwords, especially in slogans: - enterprise - web 2.0 - agile (this one isn't *quite* as bad as it has a more clear definition) These buzzwords can mean many things to different people so don't really communicate much when used in a slogan. With enterprise, for example, I doubt the majority of ZF users in-fact work in an enterprise-size company. Enterprises may, in fact, be the target market for the *commercial* end of ZF. However, we have a vague notion that if it's for enterprise it must be good. But, since we don't work for an enterprise-size company, we don't really know what those aspects are so not much is really communicated here other than, it's good which doesn't carry much substance. In other words, if your truly saying enterprise to *directly* target actual enterprise-size companies, that's fine. But it comes across more as targeting those of us who don't work at an enterprise-size company but think that it must be good if it's good for enterprises. I think there are a lot of great things to be said about ZF that are more substantive. On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 3:12 PM, Joó Ádám [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My favourite is Enterprise-strength PHP. Regards, Ádám -- Bradley Holt [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power
Well, ‘enterprise’ to me has a very specific meaning that is captured well in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enterprise_software. That said, note the ‘criticism’ section at the bottom of the entry, which reflects your point well. I believe that’s the first time I’ve seen a criticism section in Wikipedia for a single word. J The idea is with features like LDAP and SOAP (stay tuned on this one), ZF is perfect for building enterprise software. I see this as one of our sweet spots among PHP frameworks, and it certainly makes for an important part of our user base as far as Zend is concerned. I think it’s fair to say that we directly target enterprise-sized companies in our marketing. But you might be surprised how many ZF users actually work in ‘enterprise-size’ companies. For whatever reason, they seem to have disproportionate representation on the lists, but I don’t think that’s necessarily uncommon for open source projects that are used in the enterprise. You’ll see ‘Web 2.0’ come up in our marketing; it would be hard for us not to use it in today’s web dev env. But I have specifically asked that we avoid the term ‘agile’ to describe anything even remotely related to development methodology since I’m a BIG agile methodology fan, and I don’t feel our development methodology on this project could currently be classified as ‘agile’. And, AFAIK, there is nothing that we do in our codebase or docs to facilitate agile methodologies beyond just being a great framework to use in such an environment. J In the broader sense of the term, ZF is truly more agile than other frameworks in that we endeavor to try to exhaustively gather and respond as quickly as possible to our users’ needs. I would say ‘agile’ is one of the most loaded terms in our current web dev lexicon. I hope this discussion isn’t wearing thin for those who come to this list looking for a more technical perspective. I happen to think these issues are very important and will have a large impact on all ZF users as we drive more adoption. ,Wil From: Bradley Holt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 12:34 PM To: Joó Ádám Cc: Eric Marden; fw-general@lists.zend.com Subject: Re: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power Ugh, what the heck is the word enterprise http://terrychay.com/blog/article/enterprise-scalability.shtml suppose to mean in this context, anyways? I'd attempt to actively avoid the following buzzwords, especially in slogans: * enterprise * web 2.0 * agile (this one isn't quite as bad as it has a more clear definition) These buzzwords can mean many things to different people so don't really communicate much when used in a slogan. With enterprise, for example, I doubt the majority of ZF users in-fact work in an enterprise-size company. Enterprises may, in fact, be the target market for the commercial end of ZF. However, we have a vague notion that if it's for enterprise it must be good. But, since we don't work for an enterprise-size company, we don't really know what those aspects are so not much is really communicated here other than, it's good which doesn't carry much substance. In other words, if your truly saying enterprise to directly target actual enterprise-size companies, that's fine. But it comes across more as targeting those of us who don't work at an enterprise-size company but think that it must be good if it's good for enterprises. I think there are a lot of great things to be said about ZF that are more substantive. On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 3:12 PM, Joó Ádám [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My favourite is Enterprise-strength PHP. Regards, Ádám -- Bradley Holt [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power
In support of Bradley Holt I propose: Zend Framework: The agile enterprise framework for web 2.0 :) On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 2:34 PM, Bradley Holt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ugh, what the heck is the word enterprisehttp://terrychay.com/blog/article/enterprise-scalability.shtmlsuppose to mean in this context, anyways? I'd attempt to actively avoid the following buzzwords, especially in slogans: - enterprise - web 2.0 - agile (this one isn't *quite* as bad as it has a more clear definition) These buzzwords can mean many things to different people so don't really communicate much when used in a slogan. With enterprise, for example, I doubt the majority of ZF users in-fact work in an enterprise-size company. Enterprises may, in fact, be the target market for the *commercial* end of ZF. However, we have a vague notion that if it's for enterprise it must be good. But, since we don't work for an enterprise-size company, we don't really know what those aspects are so not much is really communicated here other than, it's good which doesn't carry much substance. In other words, if your truly saying enterprise to *directly* target actual enterprise-size companies, that's fine. But it comes across more as targeting those of us who don't work at an enterprise-size company but think that it must be good if it's good for enterprises. I think there are a lot of great things to be said about ZF that are more substantive. On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 3:12 PM, Joó Ádám [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My favourite is Enterprise-strength PHP. Regards, Ádám -- Bradley Holt [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power
On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 4:01 PM, Josh Team [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In support of Bradley Holt I propose: Zend Framework: The agile enterprise framework for web 2.0 :) Brilliant! On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 2:34 PM, Bradley Holt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ugh, what the heck is the word enterprisehttp://terrychay.com/blog/article/enterprise-scalability.shtmlsuppose to mean in this context, anyways? I'd attempt to actively avoid the following buzzwords, especially in slogans: - enterprise - web 2.0 - agile (this one isn't *quite* as bad as it has a more clear definition) These buzzwords can mean many things to different people so don't really communicate much when used in a slogan. With enterprise, for example, I doubt the majority of ZF users in-fact work in an enterprise-size company. Enterprises may, in fact, be the target market for the *commercial*end of ZF. However, we have a vague notion that if it's for enterprise it must be good. But, since we don't work for an enterprise-size company, we don't really know what those aspects are so not much is really communicated here other than, it's good which doesn't carry much substance. In other words, if your truly saying enterprise to *directly* target actual enterprise-size companies, that's fine. But it comes across more as targeting those of us who don't work at an enterprise-size company but think that it must be good if it's good for enterprises. I think there are a lot of great things to be said about ZF that are more substantive. On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 3:12 PM, Joó Ádám [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My favourite is Enterprise-strength PHP. Regards, Ádám -- Bradley Holt [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Bradley Holt [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power
Wil, Well put. I didn't mean to imply that ZF wasn't enterprise software - I most certainly think it is (for all the reasons you enumerated and more)! As long as you're truly using the word enterprise to speak to enterprise customers, then I think it's perfectly fine to use the word. I just don't like when it's used as a catch-all phrase with no actual meaning behind it. I hear you about web 2.0 - you need to have a certain amount of buzzword compliance these days. I was considering putting a buzzword compliance page on our website where potential clients can go to see if we do all the cool things they read about in Wired Magazine ;-) Like I said before, I don't think there's anything wrong with your current slogan but this has been an interesting thread non-the-less! On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 3:58 PM, Wil Sinclair [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, 'enterprise' to me has a very specific meaning that is captured well in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enterprise_software. That said, note the 'criticism' section at the bottom of the entry, which reflects your point well. I believe that's the first time I've seen a criticism section in Wikipedia for a single word. J The idea is with features like LDAP and SOAP (stay tuned on this one), ZF is perfect for building enterprise software. I see this as one of our sweet spots among PHP frameworks, and it certainly makes for an important part of our user base as far as Zend is concerned. I think it's fair to say that we directly target enterprise-sized companies in our marketing. But you might be surprised how many ZF users actually work in 'enterprise-size' companies. For whatever reason, they seem to have disproportionate representation on the lists, but I don't think that's necessarily uncommon for open source projects that are used in the enterprise. You'll see 'Web 2.0' come up in our marketing; it would be hard for us not to use it in today's web dev env. But I have specifically asked that we avoid the term 'agile' to describe anything even remotely related to development methodology since I'm a BIG agile methodology fan, and I don't feel our development methodology on this project could currently be classified as 'agile'. And, AFAIK, there is nothing that we do in our codebase or docs to facilitate agile methodologies beyond just being a great framework to use in such an environment. J In the broader sense of the term, ZF is truly more agile than other frameworks in that we endeavor to try to exhaustively gather and respond as quickly as possible to our users' needs. I would say 'agile' is one of the most loaded terms in our current web dev lexicon. I hope this discussion isn't wearing thin for those who come to this list looking for a more technical perspective. I happen to think these issues are very important and will have a large impact on all ZF users as we drive more adoption. ,Wil *From:* Bradley Holt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* Wednesday, April 16, 2008 12:34 PM *To:* Joó Ádám *Cc:* Eric Marden; fw-general@lists.zend.com *Subject:* Re: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power Ugh, what the heck is the word enterprisehttp://terrychay.com/blog/article/enterprise-scalability.shtmlsuppose to mean in this context, anyways? I'd attempt to actively avoid the following buzzwords, especially in slogans: - enterprise - web 2.0 - agile (this one isn't *quite* as bad as it has a more clear definition) These buzzwords can mean many things to different people so don't really communicate much when used in a slogan. With enterprise, for example, I doubt the majority of ZF users in-fact work in an enterprise-size company. Enterprises may, in fact, be the target market for the *commercial* end of ZF. However, we have a vague notion that if it's for enterprise it must be good. But, since we don't work for an enterprise-size company, we don't really know what those aspects are so not much is really communicated here other than, it's good which doesn't carry much substance. In other words, if your truly saying enterprise to *directly* target actual enterprise-size companies, that's fine. But it comes across more as targeting those of us who don't work at an enterprise-size company but think that it must be good if it's good for enterprises. I think there are a lot of great things to be said about ZF that are more substantive. On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 3:12 PM, Joó Ádám [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My favourite is Enterprise-strength PHP. Regards, Ádám -- Bradley Holt [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Bradley Holt [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power
After a glass of red or two:- Why Symphony, when you can simply-fly with ZF? (pun on Simplfy) Looking at the above: ZF - Simply Fly! Strengthen your foundations! Web 2.0 ... PHP 5.0 (like football/soccer scores!) I could go on, but I will probably be barred from the list! This email has been scanned for all known viruses by the MessageLabs Email Security Service and the Macro 4 plc internal virus protection system.
Re: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power
Zend Framework, Way too cool for a slogan. On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 3:25 PM, Robert Castley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: After a glass of red or two:- Why Symphony, when you can simply-fly with ZF? (pun on Simplfy) Looking at the above: ZF - Simply Fly! Strengthen your foundations! Web 2.0 ... PHP 5.0 (like football/soccer scores!) I could go on, but I will probably be barred from the list! This email has been scanned for all known viruses by the MessageLabs Email Security Service and the Macro 4 plc internal virus protection system.
RE: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power
Couldn't resist! OOP's, it got easier! Wrap up some PHP this insert season, festive holiday etc Simplify the complex! BTW, Power in Simplicity was the slogan I came up with for Mambo! _ From: Robert Castley Sent: 16 April 2008 21:26 To: fw-general@lists.zend.com Subject: RE: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power After a glass of red or two:- Why Symphony, when you can simply-fly with ZF? (pun on Simplfy) Looking at the above: ZF - Simply Fly! Strengthen your foundations! Web 2.0 ... PHP 5.0 (like football/soccer scores!) I could go on, but I will probably be barred from the list! This email has been scanned for all known viruses by the MessageLabs Email Security Service and the Macro 4 plc internal virus protection system. This email has been scanned for all known viruses by the MessageLabs Email Security Service and the Macro 4 plc internal virus protection system. This email has been scanned for all known viruses by the MessageLabs Email Security Service and the Macro 4 plc internal virus protection system.
Re: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power
Enterprise-strength PHP I like the above one a lot. !!! Joó Ádám wrote: My favourite is Enterprise-strength PHP. Regards, Ádám -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Simplicity-Meets-Power-and-not-Simplicity%2C-Meets-Power-tp16722510p16733184.html Sent from the Zend Framework mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power
I dont think that ZF is that simple. I have been learning it for the past month and its not that easyI think enterprise-ready or something like that would work... bradley.holt wrote: Wil, Not that I think there's anything wrong with the existing slogan, but since you asked for ideas... My first thought is that you're trying to communicate simplicity, so your slogan should be simple as well. Looking at the Why ZF?http://framework.zend.com/whyzf/page gives a few keywords that nicely describe the positive aspects of ZF. Perhaps something as simple as: simplicity, power, productivity or, getting a tad bit clever: simply powerful productivity or, risking complexity: simplicity, power, and productivity for building your web applications or, a different approach all-together: from the PHP company On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 1:03 PM, Wil Sinclair [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wow. I didn't think this would be such a point of discussion. I hope I can settle this once and for all. It is proper English- meet is imperative; Simplicity is directly addressing simplicity by name as if it were a person. Take it from someone who double majored in Comparative Literature and Computer Science in college. J In any case, this tagline was never meant to be permanent or the sole slogan associated with ZF. The main point was trying to express ZF's philosophy in a short- hopefully memorable-slogan. In doing so, we hoped to differentiate ZF from the other frameworks and give it a face. Other slogans were brought up that we may use in the future, perhaps even alongside this one. **But I'd really like to hear what you guys might come up with** for two reasons: 1) We might end up with some very good slogans to use later. and 2) I'm extremely curious what our community see as the differentiators for ZF and what ZF means to all of us. Please feel free to throw out ideas here. I would like to suggest you try to aggregate all your suggestions in one mail, however, so that we don't create too much non-technical traffic. And, of course, if we were to use a slogan suggested by a member of the community, we'd have to make sure Zend held the copyright and could trademark it if necessary. ,Wil *From:* Robin Skoglund [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* Wednesday, April 16, 2008 9:23 AM *To:* fw-general@lists.zend.com *Subject:* Re: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power I don't know what English courses you guys have taken, but a comma does not translate into the word and. It simply states there should be a brief pause before continuing, whereas John meet Sue sounds rushed. Simplcity, Meet Power is an excellent slogan in my mind :) On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 6:05 PM, Joseph Crawford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yea there should be no , that just does not make sense as it translates into John and meet Sue John meet Sue sounds more proper On Apr 16, 2008, at 11:42 AM, Paul Mark wrote: I see what you are trying to say, but it should be no comma there or John, meet Sue makes no sense in this translation. Again - the John, meet Sue sounds funny by itself when referring to people ( it is out of context )and it sounds even more incorrect when applying to abstract or programming framework. It just looks unfinished...thats all... On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 11:01 AM, Josh Team [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am pretty sure they are not describing the framework as Simplicity Meets Power but introducing Simplicity to Power. John, meet Sue Simplicity, Meet Power On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 9:52 AM, Martin Martinov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not an expert in English, but Wil already posted the reasoning behind this wording. Search the archives :-) On 16/04/2008, photo312 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can someone fix it - it kind of looks embarrassing... the saying should be:Simplicity Meets Power -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Simplicity-Meets-Power-and-not-Simplicity%2C-Meets-Power-tp16722510p16722510.html Sent from the Zend Framework mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Regards, Martin Martinov http://mmartinov.com/ -- Bradley Holt [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Simplicity-Meets-Power-and-not-Simplicity%2C-Meets-Power-tp16722510p16733211.html Sent from the Zend Framework mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
RE: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power
Whoa- thanks for pointing the Mambo thing out. I didn't realize there was another popular PHP project out there with such a similar tagline. Robert must be a great mind- we think alike. ;D OK, that's one good reason to start rotating out the taglines. BTW, I like 'ZF - Simply Fly'. Very unconventional from a marketing standpoint, but when you get it, it seems to stick somehow. Why not OOP's, we did it again for the next big release? This would play well with the Britney Spears fan contingent of our users. OK, bad joke. No need for the -1's. J ,Wil From: Robert Castley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 1:44 PM To: fw-general@lists.zend.com Subject: RE: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power Couldn't resist! OOP's, it got easier! Wrap up some PHP this insert season, festive holiday etc Simplify the complex! BTW, Power in Simplicity was the slogan I came up with for Mambo! From: Robert Castley Sent: 16 April 2008 21:26 To: fw-general@lists.zend.com Subject: RE: [fw-general] Simplicity Meets Power and not Simplicity, Meets Power After a glass of red or two:- Why Symphony, when you can simply-fly with ZF? (pun on Simplfy) Looking at the above: ZF - Simply Fly! Strengthen your foundations! Web 2.0 ... PHP 5.0 (like football/soccer scores!) I could go on, but I will probably be barred from the list! This email has been scanned for all known viruses by the MessageLabs Email Security Service and the Macro 4 plc internal virus protection system. This email has been scanned for all known viruses by the MessageLabs Email Security Service and the Macro 4 plc internal virus protection system. This email has been scanned for all known viruses by the MessageLabs Email Security Service and the Macro 4 plc internal virus protection system.
