Re: Partitions corrupted on a drive (UPDATE: typos fixed+parts rewritten)

[peterhaas]

>> But, it is still safer to limit the boot volume to two partitions, the
>> first of which is 128 GB (131,072 MB, actual capacity) with the
>> remainder
>> being used for data storage which is not boot-dependent.
>
> It really is the only *safe* way.
>
>> Thereafter, the other volumes may be larger than 128 GB.

Indeed so, and this was my eventual realization.

But, at THAT time, 120 GB ATA drives were common. Today, they are a
rarity. My smallest ATA drive is presently a pair of 160 GB drives which
are in a MacMini G4 which is being used as a server.

My final solution was to modify my Beige G3, reverting the ROM from 3C to
1A, which removed the two drive capability per ATA channel, and to go to
an all-UW-SCSI implementation for my hard drives.

I had drives in the "basement" of the Beige, and also in the conventional
locations.

My N-SCSI channel was used for a DAT tape drive for backups.

These days, my only operational Mac tower from the G3/G4 family is
presently a MDD.

I think you are probably right ... I was "lucky" that the O.F. hack worked
for me as that logical volume was mostly unfilled.

I had also experimented with using the O.F. hack for the third and fourth
ATA devices, but this was not without its problems, either.



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Re: Partitions corrupted on a drive (UPDATE: typos fixed+parts rewritten)

[Mac User #330250]

About BootX and Open Firmware, I found one more:
https://opensource.apple.com/source/bless/bless-11/README.BOOTING

It explains that BootX uses OF to load files. And before the QS 2002, OF 
was limited to LBA28, i.e. 128 GB.

The /simple/ truth and the reason for the complicated work-around.

Cheers,
Mac User #330250

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Re: Partitions corrupted on a drive (UPDATE: typos fixed+parts rewritten)

[Mac User #330250]

Hello Peter!

On 2017-01-09 03:16, peterh...@cruzio.com wrote:

It is my understanding that if the LBA48 property has been introduced to
O.F. "persistently", then a volume which is larger than 128 GB may indeed
be the boot volume.


Unfortunately this is not true. During the boot process, the first 
stages rely on Open Firmware implemented functions to load files from a 
(boot) volume. Since the OF only supports LBA28, a read or (more fatal:) 
write to a position beyond the first 128 GB will fail and, consequently, 
the boot will fail.


For Mac OS X, this first stage is BootX. See 
http://osxbook.com/book/bonus/ancient/whatismacosx/arch_boot.html 
(scroll down, read chapter "Bootloader"). Before BootX loads and 
executes the kernel, it relys heavily on OF. And I do not know at which 
stage the kernel, XNU, stopps to rely on OF functions, because loading 
the kexts (and the kext cache) could still be OF dependant. Once the 
KeyLargo kext is loaded, OF is no longer used for ATA disk I/O.


So, why may a bigger partition work anyway? Well, you may just be lucky 
and all files required for boot in the OF dependant stage are below the 
28-bit LBA barrier.


Nevertheless, using such a partitioning is a poker game. One day, when 
the partition is really filled, the operating system may rebuild the 
boot files (as it does already for kernel extensions, kexts -- it keeps 
a cache) and it will use the next available free blocks on that volume. 
The user has no control over this and the boot will "suddenly" fail -- 
or act weird -- BECAUSE of LBA28 2^28 bits wrapping.
This will definitely happen if you install an update for Mac OS X, say 
from 10.4.8 to 10.4.11, and the partition is already filled past 128 GB 
of the total size of the HDD.


Also note that Open Firmware will present every volume with boot 
information on it that it can access. If a partitions starts before the 
2^28 LBA limit and its boot files (which make OF think it can boot from 
this volume) happen to be below block 268,435,455, then OF will show it 
as a bootable volume. However, such a volume is hugely affected by LBA 
block wrapping!


All volumes that start above the 2^28 block limit, bootable or not, will 
not be shown (and will not be accessably in any way)by Open Firmware.



But, it is still safer to limit the boot volume to two partitions, the
first of which is 128 GB (131,072 MB, actual capacity) with the remainder
being used for data storage which is not boot-dependent.


It really is the only *safe* way.


Thereafter, the other volumes may be larger than 128 GB.



Yap. Starting at block 268,435,456 you can make one big partition and be 
safe.



I had a 512 GB drive and split it 64 GB for Mac OS 9 and 64 GB for Mac 
OS X (totalling the first 128 GB with the LBA28 block limit being the 
end of the Mac OS X partition) and the rest was one big 384 GB data 
partition (which was accessable once Mac OS X had booted with the OF 
hack or the modified KeyLargo.kext).


I didn't file a free solution for Mac OS 9 though.


Cheers,

Mac User #330250

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Re: Partitions corrupted on a drive (UPDATE: typos fixed+parts rewritten)

[peterhaas]

> (Sorry, my first attempt had numerous errors such as typos. I've also
> rewritten parts and added a TO-DO, what I would do).
> THIS IS THE UPDATED VERSION OF THE SAME EMAIL.
> ...

It is my understanding that if the LBA48 property has been introduced to
O.F. "persistently", then a volume which is larger than 128 GB may indeed
be the boot volume.

But, it is still safer to limit the boot volume to two partitions, the
first of which is 128 GB (131,072 MB, actual capacity) with the remainder
being used for data storage which is not boot-dependent.

Thereafter, the other volumes may be larger than 128 GB.

Just a short refresher course:

1) the basic support, which is pre-MDD, is LBA28,

2) support for LBA48 before or during boot may be added "persistently"
using the O.F. hack, and

3) support for LBA48 after boot may be added using the Intech High-Cap
kernel extension, for appropriate versions of MacOS X, and

4) LBA48 really means that the OS software sends TWO commands (CDBs) to
the controller, the first of which contains the first 28 bits, and the
second of which contains the remaining 20 bits).

The only PowerPC Mac which I still have on my desk is a Mirror Drive Door
model, and the MDD models all have LBA48 permanently available.

My MDD machine was supplied with two very large HDDs, and both seem to
work appropriately. The machine also included two DVD burners which is
certainly a luxury.



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Re: Partitions corrupted on a drive (UPDATE: typos fixed+parts rewritten)

[Mac User #330250]

Hello Neal!
(Sorry, my first attempt had numerous errors such as typos. I've also 
rewritten parts and added a TO-DO, what I would do).

THIS IS THE UPDATED VERSION OF THE SAME EMAIL.

On 2016-12-30 19:34, W. Neal Lewis wrote:

 Machine Name: Power Mac G4 (AGP graphics)
  Machine Model:PowerMac3,1


Okay, there you go. The Open Firmware of this Mac doesn't support LBA48 
addressing, hence it doesn't support more than 128GB HDDs.


Actually, the real limit is that the boot partitions must be below the 
128 GB barrier (in total: start+end below the limit). The OS (like Mac 
OS X) has the capability to overcome this limit once it has taken 
control (booted up). And as far as I know, there is only one way to do 
it right.


SOLUTION 1:
===
Warning: This is not what I would do, it is too complicated for me. I 
choose solution 2!


Okay, the limit is LBA28, which means Logical Block Addressing of 2^28 
blocks. My calculator says, 2^28 equals 268,435,456 blocks. A block is 
normally 512 bytes large, i.e. 128 GB (1,024 bytes) or 137 GiB (1,000 bytes)


This is the theory. So, WHAT YOU ABSOLUTELY NEED TO MAKE SURE:
1) make as many partitions as you like, but
2) KEEP THEM INSIDE THE 2^28 BLOCKS!

Note that only those partitions will be accessable for boot. If you 
install another OS on a partition past this limit, it won't be bootable 
on this Mac model!


Then, add partitions THAT START PAST the 2^28 block number! This makes 
it safe for LBA28 access, because if a partition starts before the last 
LBA28 block, it is accessable but will wrap around when accessed by 
LBA28 disk access and WILL OVERWRITE the beginning of your drive!


Why? The explanation is simple: WRAPPING.

Let me explain wrapping with 4 bits (not 28, that would be too large an 
example).  is binary for 0 decimal.

bin  / dec
 = 0
0001 = 1
0010 = 2
0011 = 3
0100 = 4
0101 = 5
0110 = 6
0111 = 7
1000 = 8
1001 = 9
1010 =10
1011 =11
1100 =12
1101 =13
1110 =14
 =15

Lets assume we add 1 to our last number, the one that is the greatest 
number for 4 bits: 15+1.

1 = 16

1 (to represent the number 16, 15+1) is five bits long. BUT we only 
have 4 bits. So the 5th highest bit isn't used. Instead of 1 only 
 is saved in 4 bits. BUT  = 0. THAT is WRAPPING.


The partition example: a partitions starts below 2^28 but reaches 
outside its highest block number: the partition will be accessable. BUT 
any program (INCLUDING the Open Firmware and early Mac OS boot 
processes) will add block numbers to the partition starting block just 
like in the 4 bits wrapping example.


Assume the boot process locates a file on the partition with an offset 
that is outside the 2^28: it will read another block, that is actually 
at the begin of the HDD. But that is not the worst part, because this 
will /only/ make the boot-up fail.


THE WORST PART: file systems tend to be written to! Say, the boot-up 
initiates an update in access times. The file system wants to save a new 
"last accessed" time for a specific file. IT MAY WELL BE that the 
location, where to store this information i.e. this block inside the 
filesystem, happens to be OUTSIDE the 2^28 bit of blocks area, because 
the partitions reaches outside this limit. THEN YOU WILL CORRUPT the 
data that is saved at the other end of the HDD! With a really high 
lickelyness that the first blocks will be overwritten (blocks 0++). 
THOSE BLOCKS CONTAIN THE PARTITION MAP ITSELF! So, not only will you 
corrupt the first partitions, you are very likely to corrupt the Apple 
Partition Map, hence preventing every ordinary access to the HDD thereafter!


SO: MAKE SURE THERE IS NO PARTITION CROSSING BLOCK 268,435,456!

You /could/ use pdisk to make partitions below block 268,435,456--that 
start and end there--and partitions that start past block 268,435,456 
and you /should/ be safe.


My problem with this is as follows: pdisk, diskutil and Disk Utility 
doesn't give block numbers! They give partition sizes in MB or GB. Or, 
it could round those numbers, who knows...


If your partitions get close to 128 GB, you cannot be certain that block 
2^28 i.e. block 268,435,456 isn't crossed by a partition! (The reverse 
is also true: after applying the OF hack, you cannot be certain that a 
partition start paste the 2^28 block when all you see is numbers in GB 
and MB!)



SOLUTION 2:
===
To elliminate this possibility, take advantage of your Mac being limited 
to LBA28 in the first place! Boot with a Mac OS X installation disc and 
make your partitions, you may even install Mac OS X. Note that only 128 
GB will be visible in Disk Utility and that is because of LBA28. 
(Naturally for this you will have to use an unpatched Open Firmware, 
i.e. don't use the OF hack yet. If you did already, reset the NVRAM/PRAM 
before you partition+install!)


Then, apply the Open Firmware (abbr. OF) hack to add LBA48. NOTE: This 
doesn't really make the firmware LBA48 aware--the Open Firmware will 
still 

Re: Partitions corrupted on a drive

[Mac User #330250]

Hello Neal!

On 2016-12-30 19:34, W. Neal Lewis wrote:

 Machine Name:Power Mac G4 (AGP graphics)
  Machine Model:PowerMac3,1


Okay, there you go. The Open Firmware of this Mac doesn't support LBA48 
addressing, hence it doesn't support more than 128GB HDDs.


Actually, the real limit is that the boot partitions must be below the 
128 GB barrier (in total: start+end below the limit). The OS (like Mac 
OS X) has the capability to overcome this limit once it has taken 
control (booted up). And as far as I know, there is only one way to do 
it right.


SOLUTION 1:
===
Warning: This is not what I would do, it is too complicated for me. I 
choose solution 2!


Okay, the limit is LBA28, which means Logical Block Addressing of 2^28 
blocks. My calculator says, 2^28 equals 268,435,456 blocks.


This is the theory. So, WHAT YOU ABSOLUTELY NEED TO MAKE SURE:
1) make as many partitions as you like, but
2) KEEP THEM INSIDE THE 2^28 BLOCKS!

Note that only those partitions will be accessable for boot. If you 
install another OS on a partition past this limit, it won't be bootable 
on this Mac model!


Then, add partitions THAT START PAST the 2^28 block number! This makes 
it safe for LBA28 access, because it a partition starts before the last 
LBA28 block, it is accessable but will wrap around when accessed by 
LBA28 disk accress and WILL OVERWRITE the beginning of your drive!


Why? The explanation is simple: when 28 bits are used to accress a 
block, and the partitions starts at 2^28 -1, the disk IO will see this 
partition (because it starts below the 2^28 barrier). It will then try 
to accress this partition. The partition table (Apple Partition Map) 
will tell the software, that performs the disk IO, that the partitions 
has a specific size, but this software normally doesn't check if 2^28 -1 
(block 268,435,455) + the partition size (which is most likely greater 
than 1) remains in the address space of 28 bits.


Wrapping occurs. The software locates the partition, adds the size and 
the 28 bits get wrapped around and start at 0.
Example: say, the partition is 10 MB, that is 10,485,760 bytes. Now, we 
want to access the first block of this partition, that would be 
268,435,455, which shows only the first block of the file system. This 
will try to load the second block, 268,435,455+1 = 268,435,456. And this 
will tell the software to look for offset 3 inside the partition. BUT 
268,435,455+3 doesn't fit into 28 bits. So, after 268,435,455 comes (+1) 
268,435,456, thereafter (+2) 0, and thereafter (+3) 1. So the software 
will read block 1 instead of block 268,435,455+3=268,435,458. So far, 
only an error accurs. But let's assume, for whatever reason, the 
software thinks it has to WRITE to a block - IT WILL OVERWRITE what is 
written in the first blocks (starting from 0) of that hard drive. And 
software often thinks it has to write something, e.g. access times.



SO: MAKE SURE THERE IS NO PARTITION CROSSING BLOCK 268,435,456!

You /could/ use pdisk to make partitions below block 268,435,456--that 
start and end there--and partitions that start past block 268,435,456 
and you should be safe.


My problem with this is as follows: pdisk and Disk Utility doesn't give 
block numbers, it gives partition sizes in MB or GB. Or, it could round 
those numbers, who knows...



SOLUTION 2:
===
Take advantage of your Mac being limited to LBA28. Boot with a Mac OS X 
installation disc and make your partitions, you may even install Mac OS 
X. Note that only 128 GB will be visible in Disk Utility and that is 
because of LBA28.


Then, apply the Open Firmware hack to add LBA48. NOTE: This doesn't 
really make the firmware LBA48--the Open Firmware will still be limited 
to LBA28, hence all boot partitions (i.e. Mac OS 9, Mac OS X) MUST be 
below the 2^28 block barrier! BUT the hack will fool Mac OS X into 
thinking that the firmware is LBA48 aware and now Disk Utility will show 
the full >128 GB capacity.


The hack is shown there:
https://4thcode.blogspot.co.at/2007/12/using-128-gib-or-larger-ata-hard-drives.html

Use the enable-lba48 script: copy it in TextEdit and safe it where 
you can find it in Terminal. In Thermal, make the script executable:
1) Go to the folder where you saved enable-lba48, e.g. "cd 
/Users/Neal/Desktop"
2) Make the script executable: "sudo chmod ug+x enable-lba48" (chmod 
means "change mode" and "ug+x" means "user and group: +x", and "x" means 
executable)
3) Run the script: "./enable-lba48" -- the script acquires root 
previliges automatically when needed.
4) JUST FOR INFO: To remove the hack, simple reset the PRAM. Hold 
Option+Alt+P+R at the chime. See: 
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204063 (I know, this is for Intel 
Macs, but the keys to press hasn't changed.)



Afterwards, every Mac OS X you boot will think that the Open Firmware 
(abbr. OF) of this Mac is capable of LBA48 (even though we know it's not!).


Now comes the second part: add partitions. For this you 

Re: Partitions corrupted on a drive

[NODEraser]

Make sure you back up the data you can access before you do anything else,
just in case.

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Re: Partitions corrupted on a drive

[W. Neal Lewis]

Bruce,

A very interesting idea. I have been thinking about getting into Linux 
and this may be the opportunity.


Which version of Ubuntu (or Fedora, maybe?) would run on a G4 PPC?

I'm game to give it a try, but would need to back up the disk that has 
the problems first.


Thanks.

Neal Lewis

On 12/29/16 7:50 PM, Thomas Fritsch wrote:
i'm not super certain and Mght cause more problems than it'd solve 
but there are partitioning tools in UbuntuMATE that should work on 
your Powermac Model After  you'd install hfstools (which can still be 
done in an liveCD Session)


--
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



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Re: Partitions corrupted on a drive

[W. Neal Lewis]

Bruce,

Thank you.

I wish it did.

However, that information puts me one step closer to a solution.

Thanks again.

Neal Lewis

On 12/29/16 6:34 PM, Bruce Johnson wrote:

Would a newer version of DiskWarrior (4.0) be able to fix the problem?


Disk warrior fixes volume catalog and index issues, not disk and 
partition issues.


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University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


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Re: Partitions corrupted on a drive

[Mac User #330250]

Hello!

You failed to give some vital information. Is this a bootable drive in a 
Power Mac? Which version of Mac OS X are you running? Are the partitions 
accessible at all?


Normally the Apple Partition Map (APM) is stored in the first 64 sectors 
and if they are not corrupted the partitions should be available from 
every OS that can read APM partitions.


TestDisk should be able to find partitions for a APM partitioning 
scheme, but I personally never tried it. Someone else didn't either, 
https://www.broes.nl/2008/01/restore-an-apple-partition-map/, but has 
found an alternative solution to reconstruct the partition table.



You say that all the partitions show up on the desktop? I would 
definitely safe all precious files from the disk before I would try to 
"fix" the partition table.



Which Power Mac are you using? Because if it is a Mac prior to the 
Quicksilver 2002 then it's natural that you don't see partitions behind 
the 128 GB barrier, due to LBA with 28 bits versus LBA48 with 48 bits. 
See 
https://4thcode.blogspot.co.at/2007/12/using-128-gib-or-larger-ata-hard-drives.html 
for more on this and why it is possible that you see the partitions on 
the desktop after booting...


Good luck!

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Re: Partitions corrupted on a drive

[Thomas Fritsch]

i'm not super certain and Mght cause more problems than it'd solve but
there are partitioning tools in UbuntuMATE that should work on your
Powermac Model After  you'd install hfstools (which can still be done in an
liveCD Session)

On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 7:34 PM, Bruce Johnson  wrote:

>
> On Dec 29, 2016, at 4:55 PM, W. Neal Lewis  wrote:
>
> A partition or partitions are corrupted on one of the drives on my G4.
>
> The drive is a Hitachi HDP725050GLAT80.
>
> When I boot off the system CD, it can see two partitions, but not the
> other three.
>
> I have an older version of DiskWarrior (3.0.2) which also can see two of
> the partitions, but cannot fix the problem.
>
> Would a newer version of DiskWarrior (4.0) be able to fix the problem?
>
>
> Disk warrior fixes volume catalog and index issues, not disk and partition
> issues.
>
> --
> Bruce Johnson
> University of Arizona
> College of Pharmacy
> Information Technology Group
>
> Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
>
>
> --
> --
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Re: Partitions corrupted on a drive

[Bruce Johnson]

On Dec 29, 2016, at 4:55 PM, W. Neal Lewis 
> wrote:

A partition or partitions are corrupted on one of the drives on my G4.

The drive is a Hitachi HDP725050GLAT80.

When I boot off the system CD, it can see two partitions, but not the other 
three.

I have an older version of DiskWarrior (3.0.2) which also can see two of the 
partitions, but cannot fix the problem.

Would a newer version of DiskWarrior (4.0) be able to fix the problem?

Disk warrior fixes volume catalog and index issues, not disk and partition 
issues.

--
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


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