Re: [Audyssey] GMA games DirectSound issues, was A Note to XP users
Hi Shaun, I wouldn't go that far. There are always options, and while I'm not sure what we, USA Games, will be doing as far as a stereo pan control goes we aren't without options. For starts most of the commercial audio libraries like FMOD, Irrklang, and Bass all have 2d stereo panning. It might be that we will have to experiment with each, find out which has the best 2d pan control, and license it for use in our game engine. It might be slightly expensive to do so, but it would resolve the problem of stereo panning. Something else that makes something like FMOD Ex a worthwhile investment is cross-platform support. Firelight Technologies is in the business of licensing their library out to Mac, Windows, and Linux developers and they try to maintain as much compatibility with the host operating system as possible. As a result maintaining say XP support along side Windows 7 and Windows 8 compatibility should be possible using their technology because unlike Microsoft I don't think Firelight is going to just abandon XP over night, and even if they did simply recompiling with an older library should hopefully be enough to maintain XP support for a few more years while still supporting newer Windows platforms and so on. Bottom line, while I am hesitant to pay hundreds or possibly thousands on an audio API like FMOD it would certainly be in everyone's best interests if we did. FMOD is by far and away the best audio library on the market right now, and would provide us with the ability to support many file types, the ability to support Mac, Windows, and Linux with a single audio library, maintain backwards compatibility with XP, offer us DSP effects, and so on. Its a win/win situation in my book. Cheers! On 9/15/13, shaun everiss wrote: > then sadly for us, unless another idea can come up we may have to > scrap panning alltogether maybe it will be the end of the 2d > sidescroler which sucks but hmmm. > or we will just to have beeps or something when we need to jump or > something. > no panning definately changes things. > unless you can get the vertual 3d effect to work with sounds in > front behind left and right and emulate some sort of pan without panning. > It may be fortunate we have something like the seamonkey for vary > little and maybe we need devices and games writen for best > performance with these types of devices and have something that works > with software but streess that the game will do better with an external > device. > for 50 us its actually not to bad its round 75 bucks I think here > which is not to bad for a gaming device. > it may be the only option left to us. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] GMA games DirectSound issues, was A Note to XP users
then sadly for us, unless another idea can come up we may have to scrap panning alltogether maybe it will be the end of the 2d sidescroler which sucks but hmmm. or we will just to have beeps or something when we need to jump or something. no panning definately changes things. unless you can get the vertual 3d effect to work with sounds in front behind left and right and emulate some sort of pan without panning. It may be fortunate we have something like the seamonkey for vary little and maybe we need devices and games writen for best performance with these types of devices and have something that works with software but streess that the game will do better with an external device. for 50 us its actually not to bad its round 75 bucks I think here which is not to bad for a gaming device. it may be the only option left to us. At 11:39 AM 9/14/2013, you wrote: Hi Shaun, I am not talking about using SFML. I was speaking of using OpenAL directly rather than through a third-party API like SFML::Audio. Although, my research did indicate most of the crashing happened on Windows XP systems, and none on Vista/Windows 7. Meaning the problem was an XP specific thing. However, getting back to OpenAL what you see is what you get. there is no 2d stereo pan control in the API and a developer basically has to bolt one on top of the 3d API to pan sounds because there isn't one to speak of in the API. Microsoft's new XAudio2 API is the very same way. Plenty of control over 3d virtual audio and 5.1 surround sound, but no 2d stereo panning. I don't know what you end users think we developers can do when the technology simply is not there or has been dropped by Microsoft, and sticking with an old outdated technology like DirectSound for panning is not good for us either.We don't have a lot of options and what options we do have such as FMOD and Bass costs money Complaining to us won't solve your problem because we don't have a lot of options either.. Cheers! On 9/13/13, shaun everiss wrote: > hmmm what formats have you found. > I am not so keen with open al/ sfml after the disaster with panning > and program crashes we had with some of the mota betas. > now if only we could get panning right so it panned ok that would be fine. > with most panning as long as it went left and right that was fine, > however with jumps and such there needs to be the entire stereo image > thing. > And not everyone has 3d hardware. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] GMA games DirectSound issues, was A Note to XP users
Hi Shaun, I am not talking about using SFML. I was speaking of using OpenAL directly rather than through a third-party API like SFML::Audio. Although, my research did indicate most of the crashing happened on Windows XP systems, and none on Vista/Windows 7. Meaning the problem was an XP specific thing. However, getting back to OpenAL what you see is what you get. there is no 2d stereo pan control in the API and a developer basically has to bolt one on top of the 3d API to pan sounds because there isn't one to speak of in the API. Microsoft's new XAudio2 API is the very same way. Plenty of control over 3d virtual audio and 5.1 surround sound, but no 2d stereo panning. I don't know what you end users think we developers can do when the technology simply is not there or has been dropped by Microsoft, and sticking with an old outdated technology like DirectSound for panning is not good for us either.We don't have a lot of options and what options we do have such as FMOD and Bass costs money Complaining to us won't solve your problem because we don't have a lot of options either.. Cheers! On 9/13/13, shaun everiss wrote: > hmmm what formats have you found. > I am not so keen with open al/ sfml after the disaster with panning > and program crashes we had with some of the mota betas. > now if only we could get panning right so it panned ok that would be fine. > with most panning as long as it went left and right that was fine, > however with jumps and such there needs to be the entire stereo image > thing. > And not everyone has 3d hardware. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] GMA games DirectSound issues, was A Note to XP users
hmmm what formats have you found. I am not so keen with open al/ sfml after the disaster with panning and program crashes we had with some of the mota betas. now if only we could get panning right so it panned ok that would be fine. with most panning as long as it went left and right that was fine, however with jumps and such there needs to be the entire stereo image thing. And not everyone has 3d hardware. At 09:03 AM 9/14/2013, you wrote: Hi Phil, Thanks for the update. David Greenwood had said something similar to me in the past when this subject came up on another list, and I'm glad he has found a way to work with DirectSound and make it work on newer platforms. As for myself USA Games is looking into other alternatives to DirectSound at the moment. Cheers! On 9/13/13, Phil Vlasak wrote: > Hi Folks, > David Greenwood has a fix for his DirectSound issues, however he is still > adding features to the game engine so hasn't released a patch for Shades of > > Doom Tank Commander and my Sarah, Harry Potter game yet. > The beta test version I have makes sounds pann better on Vista, Windows 7 > > and 8. > As soon as he sends me the final engine, I can finish updating Sarah. > Phil > Phil Vlasak > phi...@bex.net > p...@pcsgames.net > > - Original Message - > From: "Thomas Ward" > To: "Gamers Discussion list" > Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 9:15 PM > Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users > > >> Hi Ken, >> >> He must have as Swamp works well here to, but I know a lot of >> accessible games like Shades of Doom have problems on Windows 7. there >> are probably workarounds for DirectSound issues, but its usually just >> best to avoid them to begin with. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] GMA games DirectSound issues, was A Note to XP users
I think that we should see more mouse control in game and as well as have a game be able to use keyboard and the mouse be able to use the touchpads as touch and in fact touch jestures will be what will take over a lot of computing sooner or later. At 11:32 PM 9/13/2013, you wrote: I can't wait to buy this game I am using windows 8 and would love to play the full version new and improved whart will be the price.q On 9/13/13, Phil Vlasak wrote: > Hi Folks, > David Greenwood has a fix for his DirectSound issues, however he is still > adding features to the game engine so hasn't released a patch for Shades of > > Doom Tank Commander and my Sarah, Harry Potter game yet. > The beta test version I have makes sounds pann better on Vista, Windows 7 > > and 8. > As soon as he sends me the final engine, I can finish updating Sarah. > Phil > Phil Vlasak > phi...@bex.net > p...@pcsgames.net > > - Original Message - > From: "Thomas Ward" > To: "Gamers Discussion list" > Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 9:15 PM > Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users > > >> Hi Ken, >> >> He must have as Swamp works well here to, but I know a lot of >> accessible games like Shades of Doom have problems on Windows 7. there >> are probably workarounds for DirectSound issues, but its usually just >> best to avoid them to begin with. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > -- Lenron Brown Cell: 985-271-2832 Skype: ron.brown762 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] GMA games DirectSound issues, was A Note to XP users
thats good to know there is a fix for this. its one of the reasons I don't just go 7 right now to many old titles need old oses. its good to know that people are aware of the issue. I don't mind playing old games on older oses but I would like to take my games where I go and old os and old systems will not always be the case. At 10:56 PM 9/13/2013, you wrote: Hi Folks, David Greenwood has a fix for his DirectSound issues, however he is still adding features to the game engine so hasn't released a patch for Shades of Doom Tank Commander and my Sarah, Harry Potter game yet. The beta test version I have makes sounds pann better on Vista, Windows 7 and 8. As soon as he sends me the final engine, I can finish updating Sarah. Phil Phil Vlasak phi...@bex.net p...@pcsgames.net - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 9:15 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users Hi Ken, He must have as Swamp works well here to, but I know a lot of accessible games like Shades of Doom have problems on Windows 7. there are probably workarounds for DirectSound issues, but its usually just best to avoid them to begin with. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] GMA games DirectSound issues, was A Note to XP users
Hi Phil, Thanks for the update. David Greenwood had said something similar to me in the past when this subject came up on another list, and I'm glad he has found a way to work with DirectSound and make it work on newer platforms. As for myself USA Games is looking into other alternatives to DirectSound at the moment. Cheers! On 9/13/13, Phil Vlasak wrote: > Hi Folks, > David Greenwood has a fix for his DirectSound issues, however he is still > adding features to the game engine so hasn't released a patch for Shades of > > Doom Tank Commander and my Sarah, Harry Potter game yet. > The beta test version I have makes sounds pann better on Vista, Windows 7 > > and 8. > As soon as he sends me the final engine, I can finish updating Sarah. > Phil > Phil Vlasak > phi...@bex.net > p...@pcsgames.net > > - Original Message - > From: "Thomas Ward" > To: "Gamers Discussion list" > Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 9:15 PM > Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users > > >> Hi Ken, >> >> He must have as Swamp works well here to, but I know a lot of >> accessible games like Shades of Doom have problems on Windows 7. there >> are probably workarounds for DirectSound issues, but its usually just >> best to avoid them to begin with. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] GMA games DirectSound issues, was A Note to XP users
Good news! Can't wait. -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Phil Vlasak Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 6:56 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] GMA games DirectSound issues, was A Note to XP users Hi Folks, David Greenwood has a fix for his DirectSound issues, however he is still adding features to the game engine so hasn't released a patch for Shades of Doom Tank Commander and my Sarah, Harry Potter game yet. The beta test version I have makes sounds pann better on Vista, Windows 7 and 8. As soon as he sends me the final engine, I can finish updating Sarah. Phil Phil Vlasak phi...@bex.net p...@pcsgames.net - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 9:15 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users > Hi Ken, > > He must have as Swamp works well here to, but I know a lot of > accessible games like Shades of Doom have problems on Windows 7. there > are probably workarounds for DirectSound issues, but its usually just > best to avoid them to begin with. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] GMA games DirectSound issues, was A Note to XP users
Lenron, I assume you mean, Sarah and the Castle of Witchcraft and Wizardry $31.95 I'll be posting a list of changes when the game is finished, and has been tested by my private beta team. Phil - Original Message - From: "lenron brown" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 7:32 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] GMA games DirectSound issues, was A Note to XP users I can't wait to buy this game I am using windows 8 and would love to play the full version new and improved whart will be the price.q On 9/13/13, Phil Vlasak wrote: Hi Folks, David Greenwood has a fix for his DirectSound issues, however he is still adding features to the game engine so hasn't released a patch for Shades of Doom Tank Commander and my Sarah, Harry Potter game yet. The beta test version I have makes sounds pann better on Vista, Windows 7 and 8. As soon as he sends me the final engine, I can finish updating Sarah. Phil Phil Vlasak phi...@bex.net p...@pcsgames.net - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 9:15 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users Hi Ken, He must have as Swamp works well here to, but I know a lot of accessible games like Shades of Doom have problems on Windows 7. there are probably workarounds for DirectSound issues, but its usually just best to avoid them to begin with. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. -- Lenron Brown Cell: 985-271-2832 Skype: ron.brown762 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1432 / Virus Database: 3222/6160 - Release Date: 09/12/13 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] GMA games DirectSound issues, was A Note to XP users
I can't wait to buy this game I am using windows 8 and would love to play the full version new and improved whart will be the price.q On 9/13/13, Phil Vlasak wrote: > Hi Folks, > David Greenwood has a fix for his DirectSound issues, however he is still > adding features to the game engine so hasn't released a patch for Shades of > > Doom Tank Commander and my Sarah, Harry Potter game yet. > The beta test version I have makes sounds pann better on Vista, Windows 7 > > and 8. > As soon as he sends me the final engine, I can finish updating Sarah. > Phil > Phil Vlasak > phi...@bex.net > p...@pcsgames.net > > - Original Message - > From: "Thomas Ward" > To: "Gamers Discussion list" > Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 9:15 PM > Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users > > >> Hi Ken, >> >> He must have as Swamp works well here to, but I know a lot of >> accessible games like Shades of Doom have problems on Windows 7. there >> are probably workarounds for DirectSound issues, but its usually just >> best to avoid them to begin with. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > -- Lenron Brown Cell: 985-271-2832 Skype: ron.brown762 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] GMA games DirectSound issues, was A Note to XP users
Hi Folks, David Greenwood has a fix for his DirectSound issues, however he is still adding features to the game engine so hasn't released a patch for Shades of Doom Tank Commander and my Sarah, Harry Potter game yet. The beta test version I have makes sounds pann better on Vista, Windows 7 and 8. As soon as he sends me the final engine, I can finish updating Sarah. Phil Phil Vlasak phi...@bex.net p...@pcsgames.net - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 9:15 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users Hi Ken, He must have as Swamp works well here to, but I know a lot of accessible games like Shades of Doom have problems on Windows 7. there are probably workarounds for DirectSound issues, but its usually just best to avoid them to begin with. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
