Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!
Hi tom. This sounds great. I must admit if I ever get the time to create a game, it's actually a brouser based game I'd like to make, though i admit that's mostly because of my love of exploration and reading good descriptions, so I like this suggestion. However, i do have another thought regarding Mota. yes, compared to tombraider you could never create as good graphics, even compared to what other indi devs have done it would take quite considderable work. however, there is the alternative approach, and the one followed by the developers of pappasanga. Rather than present mota as a "audio game for the blind" present it as "an interactive audio adventure" like an audio drama, with cut scenes, plot, creepy sfx etc, but with the added twist of having no graphics. I am confident this would worke for shades of doom, given that the game has such a horrific atmosphere anyway, and as the sfx and such in mota progress it might work there as well. Afterall, heroes progressing through lost temples was around in audio long before the Indiana jones films. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!
HI Dark, Well said. In fact, I've truly enjoyed the discussions we have had over the past few days as it has largely changed the direction of the USA Games Interactive marketing strategy. One of those things to come out of it is that it makes more business sense not to splash the fact I'm a blind developer writing games for the blind all over the website. Instead, if I make changes to my games that might appeal to mainstream as well as other groups like deaf-blind players I could in theory reclassify USA Games Interactive as an indi game developer rather than an accessible games developer etc. One thing you and I both agree on it is very difficult to overcome mainstream stereotypes, and it is better if we begin finding productive ways to make the public aware that we are people just like them. To help find ways to ease the transition from the "he's blind" reaction to get them to see us as people who simply can't see, but are otherwise fairly normal. That is assuming their is such a thing as normal, but that's another issue for another time. Anyway, as a game developer I can see some pretty simple ways to help set USA Games on a course where blind and sighted gamers could concievably encounter each other and mingle. If I created a browser based game like Sryth, for example, I could make money while at the same time produce a style of game that is cross-platform, accessible, and equally enjoyed by blind, deaf-blind, and mainstream gamers alike. Its a simple matter of using the lowest common denominator approach. Use the one thing we all have in common and build up from it. I don't know how productive adding graphics would be to my games as Che said it was pretty much a failure when he tried it with his card games. Still it might be worth a try for some games just to see where it leads. Unfortunately, anything as complex as Mysteries of the Ancients would be out simply because I'd have to compete with the real Tomb Raider games which are already far more complex then I'm able to program myself. The graphics technology in the Legend engine used in Underworld, Legend, and Anniversary is pretty fantastic I'm told. Nobody is going to pay for a knock-off of Tomb Raider when they can buy the real thing. Cheers! On 7/17/11, dark wrote: > Hi Tom. > > both of these are true, and in fact i'd not thought of stfc myself. > > Being as I play gamebooks, i obviously come into contact with a lot of > people who play games with a text ui only. > > more of these are being released on platforms like the iphone everyday, and > are becoming much more popular, in fact generally I've noticed that as I > pod culture has increased, audio as an overall medium is making something of > a come back, look at professional audio companies like graphic audio and big > finish as examples, and that's not counting the huge number of ameter things > out there do. > > it'd be gret if vi devs could take advantage of this situation, however that > won't happen while sighted people refuse to play something sinse they assume > it is "for the blind!" > > Afterall, in fairness most sighted people couldn't imagine using a computer > or reading text without any vision at all, hence why I'm asked so often if I > have a braille keyboard and whether that is " a normal laptop" > > th0ough this is irritating, it's unfortunately a fact of life, but disabled > people won't do anything about it without making some efforts to change > things, and having blind devs sell games to sighted people is a good way. > When I first went to uni, there was a chap called John who was in most of my > lectures and became quite a good friend of mine. > > it wasn't until I'd known him for about 4 or 5 months that it suddenly > turned out he was gay, and in fact i only found out because i met his > boyfriend. > > I'd rather assumed that any gay man would be openly camp in some sort of > way, so to find out john, who if anything was quite the opposite of > camp with a very sarcastic and abrasive sense of humour, was gay very much > changed my perception entirely and made me realize there isn't any sort of > over bearing difference betwene someone who was gay and someone streight. > > The same principle applies here, though even more so, sinse unlike being > gay, blind people do! have visible differences which need overcoming, and > this is something blind people themselves need to considder in their > interactions with people, sinse even if a person is completely > unprejudiced, if they've never come into contact with anyone blind, they > will at least be surprised. > > In fact getting people over the "waaa!" he's blind phase is something I've > personally had to practice over a long while, and while it is! quite often > irritating, it is a necessity. > > Btw, this is what the 4th chapter of my phd is on, the social aspect of > disability but not merely how society gets in the way of disabled people, > also what duties and concerns disabled people have toward
Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!
Hi tom, If you want, I could help with music and stuff, if you ever wanted to add new characters... -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: 17 July 2011 01:32 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached! Hi Dark, You are absolutely right. We have in large part alienated the mainstream simply by declaring ourselves accessible games, blind games, etc. As you pointed out many games could be adapted to suit sighted players needs. Even if it is nothing more complex than a text based UI. For instance, you know I am working on a WWE wrestling game, and it will largely be text based. Well, I know for a fact other such games exist like Piledriver and Wrestling League Manager which were written by and played by sighted mainstream gamers. I'm going to take that idea one step forward and add background ambience, entrance music, start and end bells for the matches, and perhaps a few grunts etc when people are slammed, kicked, chopped, knocked down, etc. I'm also considering Jim Kitchens request that I add Sapi 5 support as well. Although, it happens to be accessible there is no reason I couldn't market it to a mainstream community as well, because other than say the Sapi support there is nothing that would indicate that this game is anything other than a straight up text game with some audio for ambience. STFC is another prime example. Although, I wrote it as an audio game I could in theory rewrite it with a text based UI, add screen reader/Sapi support, and market it both to blind and mainstream markets. I'm sure that some sighted players would be just as interested to play it as we are provided I add some text to the screen. It would have at the bare minimum some interests with sighted Trek fans with a text based user interface as I would not be marketing it specifically as a blind thing. Cheers! On 7/16/11, dark wrote: > Hi Tom. > > this is true, and is in fact the reason i no longer played sryth sinse it > seemed the gm was getting far too greedy, sticking in areas that you > couldn't get through without the uba gear from tallys workshop and expecting > people to pay more than the initial subscription which by rights given that > the game had over 2000 should've been more than enough). > > one thought I have had however, is that many audio games can pretty much > double as textual or graphical ones with litle work on the interface. > > People stil pay for gamebooks, text games, interactive fiction or even ascii > games like rogue and angband. > > Given this, if a game like entombed had a basic text interface that printed > on screen output in text, with either a couple of arrows or words to > indicate direction so that people did not have to rely upon the wind sound, > you have a perfectly playable game. > > che could probably do a similar thing with the card room by adding basic > card graphics, though with che the name "blind adrenaline" is a litle > against him in attracting people's interest. > > The problem is however, people would not look at it as a normal game, but as > a "blind" game, meaning it'd need a deal of rewording on it's website to > appeal to others. > > audio games similarly, can appeal to sited people if they are presented not > as "blind games" but as "experimental new games with a revolutionary > interface" Look at what pappasanga as a good example. > > I'd actually be interested to see what would happen if David greenwood > rewrote the description of shades of doom to remove the word accessible and > subscribed it to one of the online download resellers like lulu to be sold > along side more usual graphical games. > > I've had friends who are great doom players who were impressed by the > atmosphere and action in shades simply because! of the lack of visuals, > however the perception that disabled individuals are of another species and > require their own "special" things, be that games, chairs, sticks or > whatever. > > The amount of times someone has been shocked when i explain I use a standard > windows pc with a normal keyboard that does not have braille on the keys or > anything else. > > the sad truth is, if something includes the words accessible, or blind, > people will not even try it. While this is obviously not a good thing > socially, it is a truth that anyone trying to sell audio games to sited > individuals needs to get used too. > > Beware the grue! > > Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes
Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!
Hi Tom. both of these are true, and in fact i'd not thought of stfc myself. Being as I play gamebooks, i obviously come into contact with a lot of people who play games with a text ui only. more of these are being released on platforms like the iphone everyday, and are becoming much more popular, in fact generally I've noticed that as I pod culture has increased, audio as an overall medium is making something of a come back, look at professional audio companies like graphic audio and big finish as examples, and that's not counting the huge number of ameter things out there do. it'd be gret if vi devs could take advantage of this situation, however that won't happen while sighted people refuse to play something sinse they assume it is "for the blind!" Afterall, in fairness most sighted people couldn't imagine using a computer or reading text without any vision at all, hence why I'm asked so often if I have a braille keyboard and whether that is " a normal laptop" th0ough this is irritating, it's unfortunately a fact of life, but disabled people won't do anything about it without making some efforts to change things, and having blind devs sell games to sighted people is a good way. When I first went to uni, there was a chap called John who was in most of my lectures and became quite a good friend of mine. it wasn't until I'd known him for about 4 or 5 months that it suddenly turned out he was gay, and in fact i only found out because i met his boyfriend. I'd rather assumed that any gay man would be openly camp in some sort of way, so to find out john, who if anything was quite the opposite of camp with a very sarcastic and abrasive sense of humour, was gay very much changed my perception entirely and made me realize there isn't any sort of over bearing difference betwene someone who was gay and someone streight. The same principle applies here, though even more so, sinse unlike being gay, blind people do! have visible differences which need overcoming, and this is something blind people themselves need to considder in their interactions with people, sinse even if a person is completely unprejudiced, if they've never come into contact with anyone blind, they will at least be surprised. In fact getting people over the "waaa!" he's blind phase is something I've personally had to practice over a long while, and while it is! quite often irritating, it is a necessity. Btw, this is what the 4th chapter of my phd is on, the social aspect of disability but not merely how society gets in the way of disabled people, also what duties and concerns disabled people have towards others in society in the consciousness that they are disabled. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!
Hi Dark, You are absolutely right. We have in large part alienated the mainstream simply by declaring ourselves accessible games, blind games, etc. As you pointed out many games could be adapted to suit sighted players needs. Even if it is nothing more complex than a text based UI. For instance, you know I am working on a WWE wrestling game, and it will largely be text based. Well, I know for a fact other such games exist like Piledriver and Wrestling League Manager which were written by and played by sighted mainstream gamers. I'm going to take that idea one step forward and add background ambience, entrance music, start and end bells for the matches, and perhaps a few grunts etc when people are slammed, kicked, chopped, knocked down, etc. I'm also considering Jim Kitchens request that I add Sapi 5 support as well. Although, it happens to be accessible there is no reason I couldn't market it to a mainstream community as well, because other than say the Sapi support there is nothing that would indicate that this game is anything other than a straight up text game with some audio for ambience. STFC is another prime example. Although, I wrote it as an audio game I could in theory rewrite it with a text based UI, add screen reader/Sapi support, and market it both to blind and mainstream markets. I'm sure that some sighted players would be just as interested to play it as we are provided I add some text to the screen. It would have at the bare minimum some interests with sighted Trek fans with a text based user interface as I would not be marketing it specifically as a blind thing. Cheers! On 7/16/11, dark wrote: > Hi Tom. > > this is true, and is in fact the reason i no longer played sryth sinse it > seemed the gm was getting far too greedy, sticking in areas that you > couldn't get through without the uba gear from tallys workshop and expecting > people to pay more than the initial subscription which by rights given that > the game had over 2000 should've been more than enough). > > one thought I have had however, is that many audio games can pretty much > double as textual or graphical ones with litle work on the interface. > > People stil pay for gamebooks, text games, interactive fiction or even ascii > games like rogue and angband. > > Given this, if a game like entombed had a basic text interface that printed > on screen output in text, with either a couple of arrows or words to > indicate direction so that people did not have to rely upon the wind sound, > you have a perfectly playable game. > > che could probably do a similar thing with the card room by adding basic > card graphics, though with che the name "blind adrenaline" is a litle > against him in attracting people's interest. > > The problem is however, people would not look at it as a normal game, but as > a "blind" game, meaning it'd need a deal of rewording on it's website to > appeal to others. > > audio games similarly, can appeal to sited people if they are presented not > as "blind games" but as "experimental new games with a revolutionary > interface" Look at what pappasanga as a good example. > > I'd actually be interested to see what would happen if David greenwood > rewrote the description of shades of doom to remove the word accessible and > subscribed it to one of the online download resellers like lulu to be sold > along side more usual graphical games. > > I've had friends who are great doom players who were impressed by the > atmosphere and action in shades simply because! of the lack of visuals, > however the perception that disabled individuals are of another species and > require their own "special" things, be that games, chairs, sticks or > whatever. > > The amount of times someone has been shocked when i explain I use a standard > windows pc with a normal keyboard that does not have braille on the keys or > anything else. > > the sad truth is, if something includes the words accessible, or blind, > people will not even try it. While this is obviously not a good thing > socially, it is a truth that anyone trying to sell audio games to sited > individuals needs to get used too. > > Beware the grue! > > Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!
Hi Darren, Well, its all well and good to say that, but tell me how a totally blind developer such as myself are going to draw said graphics? If it were a simple matter of programming sure I can handle that easy enough. However, in order to render even simple graphics I'd have to pay or look for sighted assistance with the initialdrawing of the images and graphics to be used in my games. That's why many VI game developers just create a blank screen, an empty, window and forget it. On 7/16/11, darren harris wrote: > Hi dark, > > Well I think that given the technology available now making dare I say blind > friendly games with even basic graphical interfaces should be possible and > should be done now to open up the range of players and potential customers. > It's rather silly really to just present a blank screen and say there you > are play that. nobody is going to want to do it. because if the roles were > reversed you wouldn't want 1 of your senses taken away by default, this is > in essence what's happening here thus I think it's spoiling the potential > for these types of games. > > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!
Well darren, as you'll gather on the stuff I've written about the second dimention in 2d to an extent I agree, however I do think things are slowly improving due to community in put and discussion in terms of moving away from boppit games and on to things that require crytical judgement instead. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!
Lol, Darren. I just thought you were cold. You're right though, people who have some sight, will probably want at least some graphics that they can use. There isn't much of a point taking away a sense if we don't have to. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!
Right. Well like i say i do think that half the roblem with the blind friendly games is just that, they are aimed specifically at blind people. Which really doesn't give any chance for expposure. Or may i say the right kind of exposure. I can see a little bit, not too much but a little bit, with pplaying a game like shades of doom, am not saying it's not good because it is, but i felt like an element was taken from me right there. I think and this is my being point blank blunt about this, if people want games to pplay who can't see, then game development is going to have to change. Bar the likes of time of conflict and a few other mentions including what you're doing, i haven't seen anything majorly exciting over the last few years and this isn't good. Oh before i sign off, i'm writing this message on my phone and the keypppad is dying so if there's loads of extra letters in words then this is Why. -original message- Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached! From: Jeremy Kaldobsky Date: 16:07:2011 3.29 pm Good point Darren. Actually I planned to add more artwork to castaways, but even with the super limited graphics already present, it is pretty playable from a sighted perspective. I can play an entire game of castaways, without needing the screen reader, and in fact I usually do leave the screen reader off and just play it visually. If any sighted family or friends, see you playing and mention that the graphics are incredibly simple, remember that adding artwork is pretty much my last priority while making an audio game haha. I have done some pretty good graphical games in my past, so if it came down to trying to merge the blind and sighted communities, I'm sure I could do it. Since I'm not selling my games, there is not much of an incentive to go after the mainstream gamers with these audio games. Once we are talking about a multiplayer game, then it starts to make more sense, because we could use the extra players. My work might start leaning in that direction as I expand the multiplayer. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!
Good point Darren. Actually I planned to add more artwork to castaways, but even with the super limited graphics already present, it is pretty playable from a sighted perspective. I can play an entire game of castaways, without needing the screen reader, and in fact I usually do leave the screen reader off and just play it visually. If any sighted family or friends, see you playing and mention that the graphics are incredibly simple, remember that adding artwork is pretty much my last priority while making an audio game haha. I have done some pretty good graphical games in my past, so if it came down to trying to merge the blind and sighted communities, I'm sure I could do it. Since I'm not selling my games, there is not much of an incentive to go after the mainstream gamers with these audio games. Once we are talking about a multiplayer game, then it starts to make more sense, because we could use the extra players. My work might start leaning in that direction as I expand the multiplayer. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!
Hi dark, Well I think that given the technology available now making dare I say blind friendly games with even basic graphical interfaces should be possible and should be done now to open up the range of players and potential customers. It's rather silly really to just present a blank screen and say there you are play that. nobody is going to want to do it. because if the roles were reversed you wouldn't want 1 of your senses taken away by default, this is in essence what's happening here thus I think it's spoiling the potential for these types of games. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!
Hi Tom. this is true, and is in fact the reason i no longer played sryth sinse it seemed the gm was getting far too greedy, sticking in areas that you couldn't get through without the uba gear from tallys workshop and expecting people to pay more than the initial subscription which by rights given that the game had over 2000 should've been more than enough). one thought I have had however, is that many audio games can pretty much double as textual or graphical ones with litle work on the interface. People stil pay for gamebooks, text games, interactive fiction or even ascii games like rogue and angband. Given this, if a game like entombed had a basic text interface that printed on screen output in text, with either a couple of arrows or words to indicate direction so that people did not have to rely upon the wind sound, you have a perfectly playable game. che could probably do a similar thing with the card room by adding basic card graphics, though with che the name "blind adrenaline" is a litle against him in attracting people's interest. The problem is however, people would not look at it as a normal game, but as a "blind" game, meaning it'd need a deal of rewording on it's website to appeal to others. audio games similarly, can appeal to sited people if they are presented not as "blind games" but as "experimental new games with a revolutionary interface" Look at what pappasanga as a good example. I'd actually be interested to see what would happen if David greenwood rewrote the description of shades of doom to remove the word accessible and subscribed it to one of the online download resellers like lulu to be sold along side more usual graphical games. I've had friends who are great doom players who were impressed by the atmosphere and action in shades simply because! of the lack of visuals, however the perception that disabled individuals are of another species and require their own "special" things, be that games, chairs, sticks or whatever. The amount of times someone has been shocked when i explain I use a standard windows pc with a normal keyboard that does not have braille on the keys or anything else. the sad truth is, if something includes the words accessible, or blind, people will not even try it. While this is obviously not a good thing socially, it is a truth that anyone trying to sell audio games to sited individuals needs to get used too. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!
I can't understand it too. I needed a month to code a small piece of interactive fiction, that was full of bugs at the end so I have never released it. But this is reallz a record. Good work! Milos Przic msn: milos.pr...@gmail.com skype: Milosh-hs - Original Message - From: "Yohandy" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 5:06 AM Subject: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached! Jeremy, You can't be human man. nope. you're some kind of robot or something. how on earth can you possibly program complex games so quickly? It's totally ridiculous. in a good way of course :D. have you realized the business potential? I'm scared to imagine what you'd whip up if you start working on a commercial audio game for like 6 to 8 months. I bet the game would be so good that you'll be able to sell it for around $60 with no problems. and most people will buy it! look at your games right now? everyone's downloading and playing them. that's what I call a successful developer! selling games is definitely something for you to consider I think. anyone else agree? Also, since you're fully sighted, it wouldn't necessarily need to be audio-based only. you could whip up some graphics and sell it to everyone! ok I'm getting a bit excited here haha. one thing we desperately need I think are beat-em-ups. or fighting games in general. not every blind person is willing to try something like Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter no matter how much those of us that play try to convince them that they're accessible enough. Also thing with these fighting games is many of them are console based. I personally would love to play something like Streets of Rage online with other audio gamers. - Original Message - From: "Jeremy Kaldobsky" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 9:39 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Castaways, 1 week milestone reached! Boy I wish I didn't have to work, lol, I wouldn't have to stop coding! :D If you do end up donating, believe me, it will be greatly appreciated. In fact, you would be my first donater! I don't think donater is actually a word, but oh well. Well sadly I'm heading out, have fun guys! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6298 (20110715) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6298 (20110715) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!
Hi Dark, Sure a person can make good money as a general Indi developer provided the game is open to the general public which makes a world of difference. If you have a million customers, and they each pay $1.00 towards that game you just cleared your first million on a game. It usually doesn't work out that good, but Indi developers do tend to fair pretty well simply because they have thousands of customers rather than a select few hundred. For instance, you said Entombed sold 500 copies. That's great, but small potatoes compared to what most Indi developers make off of downloads. An Indi developer can reasonably expect to sell that many copies per month per product which makes game programming a decent home job. Sryth is another good example, and I'm glad you braught it up. While it is certainly accessible its nothing more than a text based browser game. I forget what I paid the last time for a guild membership, perhaps $12, but if you spread that over 10,000 people you end up with an anual income of $120,000 which is pretty darn good money for a single online endever. I've thought of doing something similar because it is a good income for little work, and there is more money in a product accessible to everyone, and not much money in purely audio based games. Cheers! On 7/16/11, dark wrote: > Hi tom. > > I didn't realize the us money situation was so insane currently, in fact > from conversations we've had about the relative price of things like pizza > over there it actually seems things are cheaper than they are over here. > > then again, while our government is similarly selfish, they have at least > now raised the minimum wage to £1600 a year, something in the region of 24 > thousand dollars. > > i got my programmers' idea from my friend who is a professional web > designer, and currently gets £23 thousand (he recently moved jobs from a 20 > thousand one), which is only about $32 thousand. > > I can see why so many professionals from this country are moving to the us > to get jobs, even apart from the fact there are just no jobs at all > around here, a friend of mine with the iquivolent of 4 degrees > including law and economics and a masters in human resources can only get > temp office jobs, while I've seen people with doctorates working in > supermarkits. > > When you put it like that, commercial game developement does seem more > difficult as self finance, though if Che is write and Jeremy could sell more > games than I thought that might well balance things out. > > there are however small indi developers who do support themselves, even down > to single people working on one game like Sryth, or small teams like Core > exiles, though nobody has done it with accessible games yet. > > Beware the Grue! > > Dark. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!
Hi tom. I didn't realize the us money situation was so insane currently, in fact from conversations we've had about the relative price of things like pizza over there it actually seems things are cheaper than they are over here. then again, while our government is similarly selfish, they have at least now raised the minimum wage to £1600 a year, something in the region of 24 thousand dollars. i got my programmers' idea from my friend who is a professional web designer, and currently gets £23 thousand (he recently moved jobs from a 20 thousand one), which is only about $32 thousand. I can see why so many professionals from this country are moving to the us to get jobs, even apart from the fact there are just no jobs at all around here, a friend of mine with the iquivolent of 4 degrees including law and economics and a masters in human resources can only get temp office jobs, while I've seen people with doctorates working in supermarkits. When you put it like that, commercial game developement does seem more difficult as self finance, though if Che is write and Jeremy could sell more games than I thought that might well balance things out. there are however small indi developers who do support themselves, even down to single people working on one game like Sryth, or small teams like Core exiles, though nobody has done it with accessible games yet. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!
Hi Dark, Actually, 20,000 a year is pretty small potatoes for most programmers. If Jeremey were working for a game development company like microsoft Game Studios, Activision, Nintendo, etc he could double that on an entry level position. I've heard some senior programmers make upwards to 60,000 as their yearly salary. So with those figures in mind 20,000 sounds pretty low. Especially, if you look at the current financial scale over hear. Its been a while since I read the financial reports, but basically $20,000 and less is considered to b below minimum wage even though a person working for McDonald's and a like are lucky if they get $12,000 to $15,000 per year. The middle class is generally considered to be $40,000 to $60,000 per year. Which is why people are screaming. Unemployment is high, and the cost of living is so high that some people have to work themselves to death taking on one or two dirt poor minimum wage jobs like McDonald's and Burger King just to reach the $20,000 minimum wage level the U.S. government consideres to be the amount to be classified as minimum wage for our current c ost of living. Of course, the crooks in Washing DC wouldn't raise the national minimum wage, forcing companies to give everyone a raise, but have no problems giving themselves raises when they want one. Anyway, that's not the only problem comercial VI game developers have to face. Here in the U.S. we have not had a cost of living adjustment, raise in SSI, since like 2008. Mean while the cost of everything is sky rocketing because of fuel and transport costs. Gas, food, taxie service, you name it costs more and anyone on SSI, which 80% of the blind are, have less to spend on toys and games. They have to constantly fork over more and more money just to survive. On 7/16/11, dark wrote: > Actually yohandi, lots of Jeremy's games do have graphics, though admittedly > simple ones and they're of use to me. > > In Castaways you can see the map and the terrain of the tyles which makes > for a handy overview, though from what I can gather buildings and other > items don't appear on it at the moment, (unless they are really tiny nd too > small for me to see, the way many of the animals in lunimals were). > > As to selling games, the problem is self support would be difficult. > > if we assume a 30 usd game will sell roughly 150 copies as games like rail > racer I believe have, that means something like 4500 usd per game. > > at that wrate, Jeremy would need to sell one game every 2 months to earn 27 > thousand dollars a year. > > In england that is roughly the equivolent to the 20 thousand a year earned > by starting level teachers, junior doctors and the like. > > thus, if aprone has a semi decent job, he could probably get more > programming, though admittedly I don't know what the cost of living in > the us is like and what a professional wage of a similar level would be. > > I'm also not sure on the two month mark even for aprone, --- and then of > course there's the fact that sales money would come gradually, not making > things very secure. > > that being said, some special games have sold many more copies (I'm told > entombed hit the 500 mark), so my estimate is probably pretty low, though > there's also the fact that most vi gamers aren't rolling in cash, and the > number of Aprone's games they buy may be limited. > > Beware the grue! > > Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!
Actually yohandi, lots of Jeremy's games do have graphics, though admittedly simple ones and they're of use to me. In Castaways you can see the map and the terrain of the tyles which makes for a handy overview, though from what I can gather buildings and other items don't appear on it at the moment, (unless they are really tiny nd too small for me to see, the way many of the animals in lunimals were). As to selling games, the problem is self support would be difficult. if we assume a 30 usd game will sell roughly 150 copies as games like rail racer I believe have, that means something like 4500 usd per game. at that wrate, Jeremy would need to sell one game every 2 months to earn 27 thousand dollars a year. In england that is roughly the equivolent to the 20 thousand a year earned by starting level teachers, junior doctors and the like. thus, if aprone has a semi decent job, he could probably get more programming, though admittedly I don't know what the cost of living in the us is like and what a professional wage of a similar level would be. I'm also not sure on the two month mark even for aprone, --- and then of course there's the fact that sales money would come gradually, not making things very secure. that being said, some special games have sold many more copies (I'm told entombed hit the 500 mark), so my estimate is probably pretty low, though there's also the fact that most vi gamers aren't rolling in cash, and the number of Aprone's games they buy may be limited. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.