Re: [Audyssey] fps/tps question
Hi Nicol, Nicol wrote: If super liam for instance were a third person game, you wouldn't have heard liam's voice in the cut sceens, but an observer's voice instead. For example, in the cut sceen of the lava lake, instead of liam saying: You want me to go through that to kill a stupid robot? If it were A third person game, there would have been the voice of an observer instead of the voice of liam. The voice would have sounded something like: liam thinks its ridiculous to go through this to killa stupid robot. My reply: That's not really true. Lots of things such as movies, game cut scenes, etc are all in the third person. For that reason I believe all of Super Liam's cut scenes are in the third person. Mainly because they are scenes involving Liam talking to X1 or someone else. Here is an example of a third person cut scene. In Tomb Raider Last Revelation at the beginning of level 3, the actual start of the game, a full cinamatic cut scene starts up with two robed riders on cammels crossing the desert. The two riders dismount and are attacked at once by hords of giant scorpions. One of the riders, the slim female rider, draws a pistol and kills the sscorpions. She then moves to a secret lever, pulls it, and the ground opens up beneath her, she sscreams, and falls down a slide into a secret chamber below. After a second to get her breath back the woman stands up, takes off her robes, and reveals to the camra for the first time it is none other than world famous archeologist Lara Croft. Big surprise right? This scene I described is definitely third person because you are not experiencing it from Lara Croft's perspective. In stead you are viewing Lara and her guide from a distance as though you were there in the desert watching them approach on cammels, fight off the scorpions, and then watch Lara fall into the secret chamber below. It is all from the viewers perspective which makes it third person. So getting back to Super Liam the same principle applies. When you hear Liam talking to say X1 you are not getting it from Liam's perspective so it can't be first person. All of the cut scenes including the one you mentioned are from the listener's perspective which makes them third person. HTH --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] fps/tps question
Yeah, thanks, tom.Nice explanation. Nice and clear explanation -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: 30 November 2009 05:03 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] fps/tps question Hi Nicol, Sure can. The primary difference between First Person and Third Person games is purely visual. In a Third Person game like Tomb Raider you can see the main character like Lara Croft on the screen, at all times, as you move around the game world. It is like a movie where you can see all the players on the screen at once. In a First Person game like Doom there is no actual character on screen and the entire visual perspective is if you were actually standing there in the game,and all you might see of your game character is an arm holding a weapon or something like that. Otherwise there is very little difference how the game is actually played. Does that make sense? Please Note: This email and its contents are subject to our email legal notice which can be viewed at http://www.sars.gov.za/Email_Disclaimer.pdf --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] fps/tps question
HI Dark Dark wrote Games where your character is defined specifically by sound and you here objects around that character independently of it's movement, --- such as all the audio side scrollers, alien outback (you can here and move your spaceship), and the grid based games such as entombed, night of parasite and treasure hunt I regard as third person, even with a limited, occasionally scrolling view point. I beg to differ from you somewhat. If you try to compare third person games with literature, no audio side scroller is third person, as liam himself is talking in the cut sceens. A third person game would be a game where the cut sceen is of someone observing what is liam doing. If super liam for instance were a third person game, you wouldn't have heard liam's voice in the cut sceens, but an observer's voice instead. For example, in the cut sceen of the lava lake, instead of liam saying: You want me to go through that to kill a stupid robot? If it were A third person game, there would have been the voice of an observer instead of the voice of liam. The voice would have sounded something like: liam thinks its ridiculous to go through this to killa stupid robot. The same with the ouch sounds liam makes when an enemy or fireball or lazar hits him. If sl were a third person game, you would have heard the voice of the observer saying: ouch, that must have been sore. So therefore I agree with tom rather that third person games is only mainstream. Please Note: This email and its contents are subject to our email legal notice which can be viewed at http://www.sars.gov.za/Email_Disclaimer.pdf --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] fps/tps question
Hi Dark, You bring up some good points. Some of which I haven't thought much about. However, as you said if we continue on with this discussion we will eventually get into a discussion of cross sensory representation and theories of functionalism which is way beyond what this list is for. Grin dark wrote: I've always felt tom that audio side scrollers were third person, sinse you here not what is literally around the character's position, but what is ahead of and behind them, something which they themselves couldn't here, or at least, wouldn't here in the same position as the player here's it. I also disagree that the first/third person distinction is exclusively visual at all. Remember, that the very origin of the phrase comes from literature. first person, ie, talking about only yourself I walked down the road and Second person, Ie, talking to a second present person Ie, you fell down a hole you idiot! Third person, Ie, a tirciary observer independent both of the person expeirncing events, and the person to whome those events, and a second party witnissing them Ie she climbed out of the hole, because she was Angela carter and litle things like holes didn't bother her! Personally, i only tend to think of full audio games where you here what is literally around the character as first person, and games where you here the character's position independent of their surroundings as third person. So games like Shades of doom, packman talks, Terraformers, --- and also sterrio targiting affairs like troopanum where you physically move your targit and things are in it's range, I regard as first person. Games where your character is defigned pspecficially by sound and you here objects around that character independently of it's movement, --- such as all the audio side scrollers, alien outback (you can here and move your spaceship), and the grid based games such as entombed, night of parasite and treasurehunt I regard as third perwson, even with a limited, occasionally scrolling view point. An interesting distinction was made actually by a sited friend of mine who tried shades of doom. He's an avid fan of graphical doom and very familiar with the series. He actually said it was far easier for him to play by audio alone than with The graphical display in the gma engine, --- -which shows only vague representation in black and white, but from what might be called a top down perspective, rather than a first person one. Thus, when in a corridor, instead of seeing on the screen (as in real doom), what your character sees, you see the corridor as a white rectangle, with your character as a black circle in the center. You can therefore see all around your character, in front and behind. It might therefore be said though the sound is first person, the graphics (such as they are), are third person. sinse my spacial coordination is pretty pathetic, I just ran with this, --- -but my friend, being used to graphical doom, found it extremely difficult to work with and actually requested me to turn the graphics off because he found the transition of viewpoints very difficult. In the end though, this is probably just a matter of semantics and personal opinion, though it does bring up some interesting questions about the representative qualities of audio, but before I start going into aesthetics, cross sensory representation and theories of functionalism I'd better stop! Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] fps/tps question
Hello. Literature wise, strictly speaking the audio drama field is stil third person, sinse you here Liam essentially talking to himself, --- -as a third person. Audio drama uses the same medium. First person would have been Liam saying something like I wondered why I was going through all this, just to fight a stupid robot Not liam talking to Dr. Quark as happens. this wasn't however really what I was getting at in the mail, sinse my main concern was the difference in the actual gameplay. To put it simply, I'd view games where you here the character's position, and then! here what is around him/her, rather than directly hereing things the way the character would, as third person. In Suprliam for instance, there is no sonic difference betwene hereing an enemy coming from in front or behind, where as in a game like shades, there very much is (in fact is. This is my point. Really though, I only find the matter interesting for what it says about how to explain spaces in audio and the nature of audio against visual information. It's mostly a semantic matter, and not one which really is easy to solve as to whether a given game is first or third person. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Nicol Oosthuizen noosthui...@sars.gov.za To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 5:11 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] fps/tps question HI Dark Dark wrote Games where your character is defined specifically by sound and you here objects around that character independently of it's movement, --- such as all the audio side scrollers, alien outback (you can here and move your spaceship), and the grid based games such as entombed, night of parasite and treasure hunt I regard as third person, even with a limited, occasionally scrolling view point. I beg to differ from you somewhat. If you try to compare third person games with literature, no audio side scroller is third person, as liam himself is talking in the cut sceens. A third person game would be a game where the cut sceen is of someone observing what is liam doing. If super liam for instance were a third person game, you wouldn't have heard liam's voice in the cut sceens, but an observer's voice instead. For example, in the cut sceen of the lava lake, instead of liam saying: You want me to go through that to kill a stupid robot? If it were A third person game, there would have been the voice of an observer instead of the voice of liam. The voice would have sounded something like: liam thinks its ridiculous to go through this to killa stupid robot. The same with the ouch sounds liam makes when an enemy or fireball or lazar hits him. If sl were a third person game, you would have heard the voice of the observer saying: ouch, that must have been sore. So therefore I agree with tom rather that third person games is only mainstream. Please Note: This email and its contents are subject to our email legal notice which can be viewed at http://www.sars.gov.za/Email_Disclaimer.pdf --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] fps/tps question
Unfortunately Tom, debating the qualatitive nature of various senses is a bit of a pet habbit of mine, I used to have raging arguements in Aesthetics (philosophy of art and beauty), tutorials, on the artistic and representative qualities of senses like smell, then for my Masters I did an essay on synaesthesia and functionalism, which investigated the type and quality of sensary information someone who was synaesthesic got from their senses. As you said though, these really aren't things which should be discussed on this list, though they do very much have a baring on how to represent an entire environment by the medium of sound, as audio games have to. I'll stop rambling now though! Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 6:45 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] fps/tps question Hi Dark, You bring up some good points. Some of which I haven't thought much about. However, as you said if we continue on with this discussion we will eventually get into a discussion of cross sensory representation and theories of functionalism which is way beyond what this list is for. Grin --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] fps/tps question
Hi dark, Yeah, when it comes to accessible games the distinction between first person and third person breaks down because those labels refer to a completely visual concept that isn't there in our games. Games like Shades of Doom, Monkey Business, Sarah, you name it are probably technically first person do to the fact the audio is specifically oriented to the player's position in the game world. That is you hear things in relationship to the player character as though you were physically there in the game. It is virtually impossible to separate the player's position and the relation ship of the other items independently the way you could if it were a third person game and make it accessible. In that sense Mysteries of the Ancients, although it is a side-scroller, is still from the point of view of the first person. You hear things to the left and right of Angela, as though you were were standing there, and you react as though you were in that certain place and time physically. In the third person You wouldn't necessarily see or hear sounds from her point of view, but see it as if you were outside the world looking in on the people inside it. Kind of like looking through a window at them and hearing and seeing them from that vantage point. dark wrote: Hi nicol. Just as in English, it's very symple. if you experience thei game from your character's perspective directly, Ie, seeing the sites, and hearing the sounds that he/she would around you, then it's first person. If the character themselves is there for you to move around, and you experience the environment around the character from a different point of view than that of the character, it's a third person game. Most audio games are first person, sinse for obvious reasons it's easier to experience the sounds from your characters perspective. The only ones I can think of which aren't, are Side scrollers like Q9 and mota, where you here what is in front of and behind your character, and know where your character is by the sound of his/her footsteps, --- independently of the environment, it's possible Night of parasite, treasure hunt, and maybe entombed might also count as third person, though this is argueable. Actually, in audio, sinse it's more difficult to represent a large amount of environmental information at a glance, the distinction is a litle more blurry. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] fps/tps question
I've always felt tom that audio side scrollers were third person, sinse you here not what is literally around the character's position, but what is ahead of and behind them, something which they themselves couldn't here, or at least, wouldn't here in the same position as the player here's it. I also disagree that the first/third person distinction is exclusively visual at all. Remember, that the very origin of the phrase comes from literature. first person, ie, talking about only yourself I walked down the road and Second person, Ie, talking to a second present person Ie, you fell down a hole you idiot! Third person, Ie, a tirciary observer independent both of the person expeirncing events, and the person to whome those events, and a second party witnissing them Ie she climbed out of the hole, because she was Angela carter and litle things like holes didn't bother her! Personally, i only tend to think of full audio games where you here what is literally around the character as first person, and games where you here the character's position independent of their surroundings as third person. So games like Shades of doom, packman talks, Terraformers, --- and also sterrio targiting affairs like troopanum where you physically move your targit and things are in it's range, I regard as first person. Games where your character is defigned pspecficially by sound and you here objects around that character independently of it's movement, --- such as all the audio side scrollers, alien outback (you can here and move your spaceship), and the grid based games such as entombed, night of parasite and treasurehunt I regard as third perwson, even with a limited, occasionally scrolling view point. An interesting distinction was made actually by a sited friend of mine who tried shades of doom. He's an avid fan of graphical doom and very familiar with the series. He actually said it was far easier for him to play by audio alone than with The graphical display in the gma engine, --- -which shows only vague representation in black and white, but from what might be called a top down perspective, rather than a first person one. Thus, when in a corridor, instead of seeing on the screen (as in real doom), what your character sees, you see the corridor as a white rectangle, with your character as a black circle in the center. You can therefore see all around your character, in front and behind. It might therefore be said though the sound is first person, the graphics (such as they are), are third person. sinse my spacial coordination is pretty pathetic, I just ran with this, --- -but my friend, being used to graphical doom, found it extremely difficult to work with and actually requested me to turn the graphics off because he found the transition of viewpoints very difficult. In the end though, this is probably just a matter of semantics and personal opinion, though it does bring up some interesting questions about the representative qualities of audio, but before I start going into aesthetics, cross sensory representation and theories of functionalism I'd better stop! Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] fps/tps question
HI all Can someone please explain to me the difference between a first person and third person game? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] fps/tps question
Hi Nicol, Sure can. The primary difference between First Person and Third Person games is purely visual. In a Third Person game like Tomb Raider you can see the main character like Lara Croft on the screen, at all times, as you move around the game world. It is like a movie where you can see all the players on the screen at once. In a First Person game like Doom there is no actual character on screen and the entire visual perspective is if you were actually standing there in the game,and all you might see of your game character is an arm holding a weapon or something like that. Otherwise there is very little difference how the game is actually played. Does that make sense? Nicol wrote: HI all Can someone please explain to me the difference between a first person and third person game? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] fps/tps question
Hi nicol. Just as in English, it's very symple. if you experience thei game from your character's perspective directly, Ie, seeing the sites, and hearing the sounds that he/she would around you, then it's first person. If the character themselves is there for you to move around, and you experience the environment around the character from a different point of view than that of the character, it's a third person game. Most audio games are first person, sinse for obvious reasons it's easier to experience the sounds from your characters perspective. The only ones I can think of which aren't, are Side scrollers like Q9 and mota, where you here what is in front of and behind your character, and know where your character is by the sound of his/her footsteps, --- independently of the environment, it's possible Night of parasite, treasure hunt, and maybe entombed might also count as third person, though this is argueable. Actually, in audio, sinse it's more difficult to represent a large amount of environmental information at a glance, the distinction is a litle more blurry. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Nicol nicoljaco...@telkomsa.net To: gamers Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 8:28 PM Subject: [Audyssey] fps/tps question HI all Can someone please explain to me the difference between a first person and third person game? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.