Re: [PATCH 1/4] system_data_types.7: Add '__int128'
* Michael Kerrisk: > Hi Florian, > > On 10/5/20 9:12 AM, Florian Weimer wrote: >> * Paul Eggert: >> >>> On 10/2/20 12:01 PM, Alejandro Colomar wrote: If you propose not to document the stdint types either, >>> >>> This is not a stdint.h issue. __int128 is not in stdint.h and is not a >>> system data type in any real sense; it's purely a compiler >>> issue. Besides, do we start repeating the GCC manual too, while we're >>> at it? At some point we need to restrain ourselves and stay within the >>> scope of the man pages. >> >> The manual pages also duplicate the glibc manual, and as far as I know, >> it's what programmers actually read. (Downstream, we receive many more >> man-pages bugs than glibc or GCC manual bugs.) Most developers use >> distributions > > I presume by most you mean "Debian + Ubuntu"? (The certainly > reflects what I see.) Yes, exactly. And other distributions inspired by the Debian interpretation of the DFSG. >> which do not ship the glibc or GCC manual for licensing >> policy reasons, so the GNU manuals are not installed locally. > > I hadn't quite clicked to this point. So, Debian (and thus > Ubuntu) do not ship the glibc manual because of GNU FDL. That's > unfortunate. >From Debian's point of view, only GFDL plus Invariant Sections is problematic, but both the glibc and GCC manuals have them. Plain GFDL would still be awkward for upstream, but fine from a policy standpoint. Thanks, Florian -- Red Hat GmbH, https://de.redhat.com/ , Registered seat: Grasbrunn, Commercial register: Amtsgericht Muenchen, HRB 153243, Managing Directors: Charles Cachera, Brian Klemm, Laurie Krebs, Michael O'Neill
Re: [PATCH 1/4] system_data_types.7: Add '__int128'
Hi Florian, On 10/5/20 9:12 AM, Florian Weimer wrote: > * Paul Eggert: > >> On 10/2/20 12:01 PM, Alejandro Colomar wrote: >>> If you propose not to document the stdint types either, >> >> This is not a stdint.h issue. __int128 is not in stdint.h and is not a >> system data type in any real sense; it's purely a compiler >> issue. Besides, do we start repeating the GCC manual too, while we're >> at it? At some point we need to restrain ourselves and stay within the >> scope of the man pages. > > The manual pages also duplicate the glibc manual, and as far as I know, > it's what programmers actually read. (Downstream, we receive many more > man-pages bugs than glibc or GCC manual bugs.) Most developers use > distributions I presume by most you mean "Debian + Ubuntu"? (The certainly reflects what I see.) > which do not ship the glibc or GCC manual for licensing > policy reasons, so the GNU manuals are not installed locally. I hadn't quite clicked to this point. So, Debian (and thus Ubuntu) do not ship the glibc manual because of GNU FDL. That's unfortunate. (Many years ago, IIRC, there were still one of two GNU FDL licensed pages in man-pages, and I rewrote / removed the pages to eliminate the problem for Debian--and I was happy also at the same time to reduce the number of licenses in man-pages.) >> PS. Have you ever tried to use __int128 in real code? I have, to my >> regret. It's a portability and bug minefield and should not be used >> unless you really know what you're doing, which most people do not. > > Doesn't this suggest we need improved documentation? Well, yes. But I'm also not convinced man-pages is the right place for it. Thanks, Michael -- Michael Kerrisk Linux man-pages maintainer; http://www.kernel.org/doc/man-pages/ Linux/UNIX System Programming Training: http://man7.org/training/
Re: [PATCH 1/4] system_data_types.7: Add '__int128'
* Paul Eggert: > On 10/2/20 12:01 PM, Alejandro Colomar wrote: >> If you propose not to document the stdint types either, > > This is not a stdint.h issue. __int128 is not in stdint.h and is not a > system data type in any real sense; it's purely a compiler > issue. Besides, do we start repeating the GCC manual too, while we're > at it? At some point we need to restrain ourselves and stay within the > scope of the man pages. The manual pages also duplicate the glibc manual, and as far as I know, it's what programmers actually read. (Downstream, we receive many more man-pages bugs than glibc or GCC manual bugs.) Most developers use distributions which do not ship the glibc or GCC manual for licensing policy reasons, so the GNU manuals are not installed locally. > PS. Have you ever tried to use __int128 in real code? I have, to my > regret. It's a portability and bug minefield and should not be used > unless you really know what you're doing, which most people do not. Doesn't this suggest we need improved documentation? Thanks, Florian -- Red Hat GmbH, https://de.redhat.com/ , Registered seat: Grasbrunn, Commercial register: Amtsgericht Muenchen, HRB 153243, Managing Directors: Charles Cachera, Brian Klemm, Laurie Krebs, Michael O'Neill
Re: [PATCH 1/4] system_data_types.7: Add '__int128'
On 10/2/20 4:44 PM, Alejandro Colomar wrote: I know, they aren't perfect. But they are still very useful, and don't see a good reason to not document them. "aren't perfect" is an understatement More important, lots of things in GNU C are useful but shouldn't be documented in the man pages, because they're out of scope. (The syntax of GNU C strings, for example.) The man pages are not intended to be a guide to every feature of GNU C. There is the GNU C manual for that, and people can read that.
Re: [PATCH 1/4] system_data_types.7: Add '__int128'
Hi Paul, On 2020-10-02 22:19, Paul Eggert wrote: > On 10/2/20 1:03 PM, Alejandro Colomar wrote: >> I know it's not in stdint, >> but I mean that it behaves as any other stdint type. With caveats, of course. > > It doesn't. There's no portable way to use scanf and printf on it. I didn't need to. Yes that's a problem. It may be possible to write a custom specifier for printf, but I didn't try. I wrote one for printing binary, and it's not that difficult. If you really need it, this might help: https://github.com/alejandro-colomar/libalx/blob/d193b5648834c135824a5ba68d0ffcd2d38155a8/src/base/stdio/printf/b.c > You can't reliably convert it to intmax_t. Well, intmax_t isn't really that useful. I see it more like a generic type, than an actual type. I guess you could have typedef __int128 intwidest_t; if you find it's useful to you. > It doesn't have the associated _MIN and _MAX macros > that the stdint types do. It's a completely different animal. Those are really easy to write. For my use cases, they have been enough. These might be useful to you: #define UINT128_C(c)((uint128_t)c) #define INT128_C(c) (( int128_t)c) #define UINT128_MAX ((uint128_t)~UINT128_C(0)) #define INT128_MAX (( int128_t)(UINT128_MAX >> 1)) #define INT128_MIN (( int128_t)(-INT128_MAX - 1)) > > If all you need are a few bit-twiddling tricks on x86-64, it should > work. But watch out if you try to do something fancy, like multiply or > divide or read or print or atomics. There's a good reason it's excluded > from intmax_t. I know, they aren't perfect. But they are still very useful, and don't see a good reason to not document them. Cheers, Alex
Re: [PATCH 1/4] system_data_types.7: Add '__int128'
On 10/2/20 1:03 PM, Alejandro Colomar wrote: I know it's not in stdint, but I mean that it behaves as any other stdint type. It doesn't. There's no portable way to use scanf and printf on it. You can't reliably convert it to intmax_t. It doesn't have the associated _MIN and _MAX macros that the stdint types do. It's a completely different animal. If all you need are a few bit-twiddling tricks on x86-64, it should work. But watch out if you try to do something fancy, like multiply or divide or read or print or atomics. There's a good reason it's excluded from intmax_t.
Re: [PATCH 1/4] system_data_types.7: Add '__int128'
Hi Paul, On 2020-10-02 21:54, Paul Eggert wrote: > On 10/2/20 12:01 PM, Alejandro Colomar wrote: >> If you propose not to document the stdint types either, > > This is not a stdint.h issue. __int128 is not in stdint.h and is not a > system data type in any real sense; it's purely a compiler issue. > Besides, do we start repeating the GCC manual too, while we're at it? At > some point we need to restrain ourselves and stay within the scope of > the man pages. I know it's not in stdint, but I mean that it behaves as any other stdint type. So I see value in having them documented together in the same page. And it's very useful in some (very specific) cases where portability isn't in mind (although many compilers are starting to provide this type). > > PS. Have you ever tried to use __int128 in real code? I have, to my > regret. It's a portability and bug minefield and should not be used > unless you really know what you're doing, which most people do not. I have. I used unsigned __int128, for operating on a big bit matrix. This type helped me remove a whole abstraction for the columns: unsigned __int128 mat[128]; // This is a 128x128 bit matrix. This way I avoided either having to use a shorter type, which would have been a bit weird: uint64_tmat[128][2];// This is more complicated to see. Or having to use GMP, which would have also complicated unnecessarily my code. And of course, I didn't care about portability, because I just wanted it to work. Thanks, Alex
Re: [PATCH 1/4] system_data_types.7: Add '__int128'
On 10/2/20 12:01 PM, Alejandro Colomar wrote: If you propose not to document the stdint types either, This is not a stdint.h issue. __int128 is not in stdint.h and is not a system data type in any real sense; it's purely a compiler issue. Besides, do we start repeating the GCC manual too, while we're at it? At some point we need to restrain ourselves and stay within the scope of the man pages. PS. Have you ever tried to use __int128 in real code? I have, to my regret. It's a portability and bug minefield and should not be used unless you really know what you're doing, which most people do not.
Re: [PATCH 1/4] system_data_types.7: Add '__int128'
Hi Paul, On 2020-10-02 19:52, Paul Eggert wrote: Why describe __int128_t in these man pages at all? __int128_t is not a property of either the kernel or of glibc, so it's out of scope. Well, as I see it, [unsigned] __int128 is as good as [u]int64_t. They are part of the C interface in Linux. As a programmer I never cared if it was Glibc providing me the type with a typedef, or GCC providing me the type with its magic. If you propose not to document the stdint types either, I can see your position, but I'll disagree. A few personal lines: I just want to use it, and to do that, I need a reference manual where to look for how to use it. And belive me that unsigned __int128 has been very useful to me. I think having this page with most of the types, in a centralized manner, is exactly what I would have needed in the past. I have had trouble finding where ssize_t was defined. I could have looked at the POSIX manual, and I would have easily found that it is defined in , but I didn't even know that it was a POSIX thing (and I can tell that I'm not the only one who didn't know this :), so I didn't even know where to search for it. When I wanted to use unsigned __128, kind of the same thing, where do you search for the documentation of something that you don't even know who specified it? When that happens, the first thing for me is to 'man something'. If that doesn't give me any useful info, then duckduckgo something. In the internet there's much info, but also much of it is incomplete or incorrect, so if I have the man, I trust the man over anything else (except for the standard documents, of course). But the standards documents usually provide the information in a reverse fashion: If you know where to look at, you'll find it. But if you only know its name, it'll be hard to find where it is. The man provides documentation with the name of what you want to know about. Simple and easy. And man is faster than the internet :) Regards, Alex.
Re: [PATCH 1/4] system_data_types.7: Add '__int128'
Why describe __int128_t in these man pages at all? __int128_t is not a property of either the kernel or of glibc, so it's out of scope.
Re: [PATCH 1/4] system_data_types.7: Add '__int128'
* Alejandro Colomar via Libc-alpha: > +the compiler is able to generate efficient code for 128-bit arithmetic". Stray "? > +.PP > +See also the > +.IR intmax_t , > +.IR int N _t I think it's surprising that intmax_t can be smaller than __int128 (and usually is, I think), so that's probably worth mentioning. Assuming that we want to document __int128 at all as part of the man-pages project. Thanks, Florian -- Red Hat GmbH, https://de.redhat.com/ , Registered seat: Grasbrunn, Commercial register: Amtsgericht Muenchen, HRB 153243, Managing Directors: Charles Cachera, Brian Klemm, Laurie Krebs, Michael O'Neill
