Re: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support
7) ??more ideas/requests?? - Have metadata as part of the file, rather than a separate file, to avoid getting lost when copying data YES please! matt wilkie Geomatics Analyst Information Management and Technology Yukon Department of Environment 10 Burns Road * Whitehorse, Yukon * Y1A 4Y9 867-667-8133 Tel * 867-393-7003 Fax http://environmentyukon.gov.yk.ca/geomatics/ ___ gdal-dev mailing list gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/gdal-dev
Re: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support
For what it's worth, here is the reply I recieved from ESRI regarding the release plans. In a follow on message I also asked whether the API would require runtime licensing or similar, to which I've not received a reply; I waited a week or so. Hi Matt, To answer your question about the file geodatabase: Yes, at ArcGIS 10 there will be an open API for the File Geodatabase for developers that does not require the use of ArcObjects. This is an off-cycle project, which means that it will not be included with ArcGIS 10 Final when it becomes available later this month. Our plans call for the File Geodatabase API to be released separately later this year as a digital download. We expect to have more details in the early fall. And you heard correctly, it will be C++ only. Paige Spee ESRI Product Marketing ___ gdal-dev mailing list gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/gdal-dev
RE: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support
Ragi, That is a good point, as always. Unfortunately I am not able to do that, but I can help in any other way... The zigGIS driver (I think ) is for reading/writing PostGIS using ArcMap, without having ArcSDE in the middle. As far as I know it does not read File geodatabases... I think for now you would have to reverse engineer the way fgdb's are written... given the effort, the discussion on whether to invest the time on fgbd or invest it on SL is at least interesting... and even fun for some of us. Duarte De: Ragi Burhum [mailto:r...@burhum.com] Enviada: quinta-feira, 17 de Junho de 2010 21:57 Para: gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org Cc: Duarte Carreira; Eric Wolf; Peter J Halls; Matt Wilkie Assunto: RE: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support From: Duarte Carreira dcarre...@edia.ptmailto:dcarre...@edia.pt Subject: RE: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support To: Eric Wolf ebw...@gmail.commailto:ebw...@gmail.com, Peter J Halls p.ha...@york.ac.ukmailto:p.ha...@york.ac.uk Cc: gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.orgmailto:gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.orgmailto:gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org, Matt Wilkie map...@gmail.commailto:map...@gmail.com Well, if SpatiaLite offers some proper benefits and disseminates through all of the FOSS world, then it may get a strong enough push even for ESRI to pick it up. It happened before... (kml?) If SL would: 1) Be as fast as shapefile in production settings, desktop and webgis 2) Offer SQL support, spatial and otherwise, also through desktop tools like QGIS 3) Allow editing while serving (even if for 1 editor only) 4) Better support in QGIS than for shapefile (take advantage of Spatial SQL, all other functionality) 5) Same for MapServer, GeoServer, gvSIG, et al. 6) Allow easy managing of rasters inside the .db file, through QGIS 7) ??more ideas/requests?? Then it would be a very, very good contender... and the ball would be kicked to the other side. And it seems we're already there for some of the listed features. Duarte Or even better, instead of waiting and complaining, we could just write a GeoDatabase OGR (ESRI) Workspace ourselves. There are already examples of working ones out there http://svn.obtusesoft.com/core/trunk/ So instead of hoping and pleading for support, someone should just sit down and write it. I started one at one point (C++), got side tracked with other things. If anyone is interested in that source code, I would be happy to share that too. - Ragi ___ gdal-dev mailing list gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/gdal-dev
Re: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support
I happened to be looking at the ESRI ArcGIS 10 online documentation and found a page of acknowledgements, which includes an acknowledgement reference to SQLite. I've no idea what to make of this - maybe someone else has? Best wishes, Peter Duarte Carreira wrote: Ragi, That is a good point, as always. Unfortunately I am not able to do that, but I can help in any other way... The zigGIS driver (I think ) is for reading/writing PostGIS using ArcMap, without having ArcSDE in the middle. As far as I know it does not read File geodatabases... I think for now you would have to reverse engineer the way fgdb's are written... given the effort, the discussion on whether to invest the time on fgbd or invest it on SL is at least interesting... and even fun for some of us. Duarte De: Ragi Burhum [mailto:r...@burhum.com] Enviada: quinta-feira, 17 de Junho de 2010 21:57 Para: gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org Cc: Duarte Carreira; Eric Wolf; Peter J Halls; Matt Wilkie Assunto: RE: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support From: Duarte Carreira dcarre...@edia.ptmailto:dcarre...@edia.pt Subject: RE: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support To: Eric Wolf ebw...@gmail.commailto:ebw...@gmail.com, Peter J Halls p.ha...@york.ac.ukmailto:p.ha...@york.ac.uk Cc: gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.orgmailto:gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.orgmailto:gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org, Matt Wilkie map...@gmail.commailto:map...@gmail.com Well, if SpatiaLite offers some proper benefits and disseminates through all of the FOSS world, then it may get a strong enough push even for ESRI to pick it up. It happened before... (kml?) If SL would: 1) Be as fast as shapefile in production settings, desktop and webgis 2) Offer SQL support, spatial and otherwise, also through desktop tools like QGIS 3) Allow editing while serving (even if for 1 editor only) 4) Better support in QGIS than for shapefile (take advantage of Spatial SQL, all other functionality) 5) Same for MapServer, GeoServer, gvSIG, et al. 6) Allow easy managing of rasters inside the .db file, through QGIS 7) ??more ideas/requests?? Then it would be a very, very good contender... and the ball would be kicked to the other side. And it seems we're already there for some of the listed features. Duarte Or even better, instead of waiting and complaining, we could just write a GeoDatabase OGR (ESRI) Workspace ourselves. There are already examples of working ones out there http://svn.obtusesoft.com/core/trunk/ So instead of hoping and pleading for support, someone should just sit down and write it. I started one at one point (C++), got side tracked with other things. If anyone is interested in that source code, I would be happy to share that too. - Ragi -- Peter J Halls, GIS Advisor, University of York Telephone: 01904 433806 Fax: 01904 433740 Snail mail: Computing Service, University of York, Heslington, York YO10 5DD This message has the status of a private and personal communication ___ gdal-dev mailing list gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/gdal-dev
RE: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support
Re-reading your email it seems I misunderstood what you meant... So using the zigGIS ArcMap/PostGIS provider one could adapt it to read OGR datasources, like QGIS does. You would then access SpatiaLite and potentially all other OGR formats from ArcMap. Good idea. Duarte De: Ragi Burhum [mailto:r...@burhum.com] Enviada: quinta-feira, 17 de Junho de 2010 21:57 Para: gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org Cc: Duarte Carreira; Eric Wolf; Peter J Halls; Matt Wilkie Assunto: RE: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support From: Duarte Carreira dcarre...@edia.ptmailto:dcarre...@edia.pt Subject: RE: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support To: Eric Wolf ebw...@gmail.commailto:ebw...@gmail.com, Peter J Halls p.ha...@york.ac.ukmailto:p.ha...@york.ac.uk Cc: gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.orgmailto:gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.orgmailto:gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org, Matt Wilkie map...@gmail.commailto:map...@gmail.com Well, if SpatiaLite offers some proper benefits and disseminates through all of the FOSS world, then it may get a strong enough push even for ESRI to pick it up. It happened before... (kml?) If SL would: 1) Be as fast as shapefile in production settings, desktop and webgis 2) Offer SQL support, spatial and otherwise, also through desktop tools like QGIS 3) Allow editing while serving (even if for 1 editor only) 4) Better support in QGIS than for shapefile (take advantage of Spatial SQL, all other functionality) 5) Same for MapServer, GeoServer, gvSIG, et al. 6) Allow easy managing of rasters inside the .db file, through QGIS 7) ??more ideas/requests?? Then it would be a very, very good contender... and the ball would be kicked to the other side. And it seems we're already there for some of the listed features. Duarte Or even better, instead of waiting and complaining, we could just write a GeoDatabase OGR (ESRI) Workspace ourselves. There are already examples of working ones out there http://svn.obtusesoft.com/core/trunk/ So instead of hoping and pleading for support, someone should just sit down and write it. I started one at one point (C++), got side tracked with other things. If anyone is interested in that source code, I would be happy to share that too. - Ragi ___ gdal-dev mailing list gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/gdal-dev
Re: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support
And ... I think I may have found the file geodatabase documentation promised ... in the online ArecGIS 10 documentation, Administrator Library, Architecture of a geodatabase, Geodatabase XML. It would appear that, in addition to the XML Schema they published several years ago, the XML documentation has been augmented with a view to interoperability being achieved at the XML level. So, maybe no, they have not published the binary structure but they may have published enough to enable XML exchange. I've not read all the material - and I would need to think about much of it before I understood it. Whether there is enough there I cannot say ... I was looking at http://help.arcgis.com/en/arcgisdesktop/10.0/help/index.html Best wishes, Peter Duarte Carreira wrote: Ragi, That is a good point, as always. Unfortunately I am not able to do that, but I can help in any other way... The zigGIS driver (I think ) is for reading/writing PostGIS using ArcMap, without having ArcSDE in the middle. As far as I know it does not read File geodatabases... I think for now you would have to reverse engineer the way fgdb's are written... given the effort, the discussion on whether to invest the time on fgbd or invest it on SL is at least interesting... and even fun for some of us. Duarte De: Ragi Burhum [mailto:r...@burhum.com] Enviada: quinta-feira, 17 de Junho de 2010 21:57 Para: gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org Cc: Duarte Carreira; Eric Wolf; Peter J Halls; Matt Wilkie Assunto: RE: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support From: Duarte Carreira dcarre...@edia.ptmailto:dcarre...@edia.pt Subject: RE: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support To: Eric Wolf ebw...@gmail.commailto:ebw...@gmail.com, Peter J Halls p.ha...@york.ac.ukmailto:p.ha...@york.ac.uk Cc: gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.orgmailto:gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.orgmailto:gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org, Matt Wilkie map...@gmail.commailto:map...@gmail.com Well, if SpatiaLite offers some proper benefits and disseminates through all of the FOSS world, then it may get a strong enough push even for ESRI to pick it up. It happened before... (kml?) If SL would: 1) Be as fast as shapefile in production settings, desktop and webgis 2) Offer SQL support, spatial and otherwise, also through desktop tools like QGIS 3) Allow editing while serving (even if for 1 editor only) 4) Better support in QGIS than for shapefile (take advantage of Spatial SQL, all other functionality) 5) Same for MapServer, GeoServer, gvSIG, et al. 6) Allow easy managing of rasters inside the .db file, through QGIS 7) ??more ideas/requests?? Then it would be a very, very good contender... and the ball would be kicked to the other side. And it seems we're already there for some of the listed features. Duarte Or even better, instead of waiting and complaining, we could just write a GeoDatabase OGR (ESRI) Workspace ourselves. There are already examples of working ones out there http://svn.obtusesoft.com/core/trunk/ So instead of hoping and pleading for support, someone should just sit down and write it. I started one at one point (C++), got side tracked with other things. If anyone is interested in that source code, I would be happy to share that too. - Ragi -- Peter J Halls, GIS Advisor, University of York Telephone: 01904 433806 Fax: 01904 433740 Snail mail: Computing Service, University of York, Heslington, York YO10 5DD This message has the status of a private and personal communication ___ gdal-dev mailing list gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/gdal-dev
Re: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support
Could well be the case. P. Jason Roberts wrote: Peter, Although I have not seen the acknowledgement you mention, I have noticed that ArcGIS 9.x appears to create SQLite databases in the user's temp directory during certain operations. Perhaps they are just using it internally to implement various processing. Jason -Original Message- From: gdal-dev-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:gdal-dev-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Peter J Halls Sent: Friday, June 18, 2010 9:09 AM To: Duarte Carreira Cc: gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org; Matt Wilkie; Ragi Burhum Subject: Re: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support I happened to be looking at the ESRI ArcGIS 10 online documentation and found a page of acknowledgements, which includes an acknowledgement reference to SQLite. I've no idea what to make of this - maybe someone else has? Best wishes, Peter Duarte Carreira wrote: Ragi, That is a good point, as always. Unfortunately I am not able to do that, but I can help in any other way... The zigGIS driver (I think ) is for reading/writing PostGIS using ArcMap, without having ArcSDE in the middle. As far as I know it does not read File geodatabases... I think for now you would have to reverse engineer the way fgdb's are written... given the effort, the discussion on whether to invest the time on fgbd or invest it on SL is at least interesting... and even fun for some of us. Duarte De: Ragi Burhum [mailto:r...@burhum.com] Enviada: quinta-feira, 17 de Junho de 2010 21:57 Para: gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org Cc: Duarte Carreira; Eric Wolf; Peter J Halls; Matt Wilkie Assunto: RE: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support From: Duarte Carreira dcarre...@edia.ptmailto:dcarre...@edia.pt Subject: RE: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support To: Eric Wolf ebw...@gmail.commailto:ebw...@gmail.com, Peter J Halls p.ha...@york.ac.ukmailto:p.ha...@york.ac.uk Cc: gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.orgmailto:gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.orgmailto:gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org, Matt Wilkie map...@gmail.commailto:map...@gmail.com Well, if SpatiaLite offers some proper benefits and disseminates through all of the FOSS world, then it may get a strong enough push even for ESRI to pick it up. It happened before... (kml?) If SL would: 1) Be as fast as shapefile in production settings, desktop and webgis 2) Offer SQL support, spatial and otherwise, also through desktop tools like QGIS 3) Allow editing while serving (even if for 1 editor only) 4) Better support in QGIS than for shapefile (take advantage of Spatial SQL, all other functionality) 5) Same for MapServer, GeoServer, gvSIG, et al. 6) Allow easy managing of rasters inside the .db file, through QGIS 7) ??more ideas/requests?? Then it would be a very, very good contender... and the ball would be kicked to the other side. And it seems we're already there for some of the listed features. Duarte Or even better, instead of waiting and complaining, we could just write a GeoDatabase OGR (ESRI) Workspace ourselves. There are already examples of working ones out there http://svn.obtusesoft.com/core/trunk/ So instead of hoping and pleading for support, someone should just sit down and write it. I started one at one point (C++), got side tracked with other things. If anyone is interested in that source code, I would be happy to share that too. - Ragi -- Peter J Halls, GIS Advisor, University of York Telephone: 01904 433806 Fax: 01904 433740 Snail mail: Computing Service, University of York, Heslington, York YO10 5DD This message has the status of a private and personal communication ___ gdal-dev mailing list gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/gdal-dev
RE: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support
Just a quick note: SQLite is supported through the FME add-on aka Interoperability Extension to ArcMap. Duarte -Mensagem original- De: Peter J Halls [mailto:p.ha...@york.ac.uk] Enviada: sexta-feira, 18 de Junho de 2010 14:49 Para: Duarte Carreira Cc: Ragi Burhum; gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org; Eric Wolf; Matt Wilkie Assunto: Re: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support And ... I think I may have found the file geodatabase documentation promised ... in the online ArecGIS 10 documentation, Administrator Library, Architecture of a geodatabase, Geodatabase XML. It would appear that, in addition to the XML Schema they published several years ago, the XML documentation has been augmented with a view to interoperability being achieved at the XML level. So, maybe no, they have not published the binary structure but they may have published enough to enable XML exchange. I've not read all the material - and I would need to think about much of it before I understood it. Whether there is enough there I cannot say ... I was looking at http://help.arcgis.com/en/arcgisdesktop/10.0/help/index.html Best wishes, Peter Duarte Carreira wrote: Ragi, That is a good point, as always. Unfortunately I am not able to do that, but I can help in any other way... The zigGIS driver (I think ) is for reading/writing PostGIS using ArcMap, without having ArcSDE in the middle. As far as I know it does not read File geodatabases... I think for now you would have to reverse engineer the way fgdb's are written... given the effort, the discussion on whether to invest the time on fgbd or invest it on SL is at least interesting... and even fun for some of us. Duarte De: Ragi Burhum [mailto:r...@burhum.com] Enviada: quinta-feira, 17 de Junho de 2010 21:57 Para: gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org Cc: Duarte Carreira; Eric Wolf; Peter J Halls; Matt Wilkie Assunto: RE: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support From: Duarte Carreira dcarre...@edia.ptmailto:dcarre...@edia.pt Subject: RE: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support To: Eric Wolf ebw...@gmail.commailto:ebw...@gmail.com, Peter J Halls p.ha...@york.ac.ukmailto:p.ha...@york.ac.uk Cc: gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.orgmailto:gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.orgmailto:gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org, Matt Wilkie map...@gmail.commailto:map...@gmail.com Well, if SpatiaLite offers some proper benefits and disseminates through all of the FOSS world, then it may get a strong enough push even for ESRI to pick it up. It happened before... (kml?) If SL would: 1) Be as fast as shapefile in production settings, desktop and webgis 2) Offer SQL support, spatial and otherwise, also through desktop tools like QGIS 3) Allow editing while serving (even if for 1 editor only) 4) Better support in QGIS than for shapefile (take advantage of Spatial SQL, all other functionality) 5) Same for MapServer, GeoServer, gvSIG, et al. 6) Allow easy managing of rasters inside the .db file, through QGIS 7) ??more ideas/requests?? Then it would be a very, very good contender... and the ball would be kicked to the other side. And it seems we're already there for some of the listed features. Duarte Or even better, instead of waiting and complaining, we could just write a GeoDatabase OGR (ESRI) Workspace ourselves. There are already examples of working ones out there http://svn.obtusesoft.com/core/trunk/ So instead of hoping and pleading for support, someone should just sit down and write it. I started one at one point (C++), got side tracked with other things. If anyone is interested in that source code, I would be happy to share that too. - Ragi -- Peter J Halls, GIS Advisor, University of York Telephone: 01904 433806 Fax: 01904 433740 Snail mail: Computing Service, University of York, Heslington, York YO10 5DD This message has the status of a private and personal communication ___ gdal-dev mailing list gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/gdal-dev
Re: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support
This is exactly what I have been talking about. On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 5:37 AM, Duarte Carreira dcarre...@edia.pt wrote: Re-reading your email it seems I misunderstood what you meant… So using the zigGIS ArcMap/PostGIS provider one could adapt it to read OGR datasources, like QGIS does. You would then access SpatiaLite and potentially all other OGR formats from ArcMap. Good idea. Duarte ___ gdal-dev mailing list gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/gdal-dev
Re: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support
Right. And you have to fork another $3000 (or $1500?) **per seat** for one of these licenses **on top** of what you already paid for ArcGIS desktop. On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 6:16 AM, Duarte Carreira dcarre...@edia.pt wrote: Just a quick note: SQLite is supported through the FME add-on aka Interoperability Extension to ArcMap. Duarte ___ gdal-dev mailing list gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/gdal-dev
Re: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support
This is meant to be an export/import type of thing. So you won't be able to open something in ArcMap and start manipulating it live using the ArcMap/ArcCatalog tools. The other approach I am proposing would be OGR as a seamless datasource that integrates with ArcGIS at the data access layer level. It would be transparent to the other tools. - Ragi On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 5:49 AM, Peter J Halls p.ha...@york.ac.uk wrote: And ... I think I may have found the file geodatabase documentation promised ... in the online ArecGIS 10 documentation, Administrator Library, Architecture of a geodatabase, Geodatabase XML. It would appear that, in addition to the XML Schema they published several years ago, the XML documentation has been augmented with a view to interoperability being achieved at the XML level. So, maybe no, they have not published the binary structure but they may have published enough to enable XML exchange. I've not read all the material - and I would need to think about much of it before I understood it. Whether there is enough there I cannot say ... I was looking at http://help.arcgis.com/en/arcgisdesktop/10.0/help/index.html Best wishes, Peter ___ gdal-dev mailing list gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/gdal-dev
RE: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support
Well, I'm sold. What you need to do it?? Duarte De: Ragi Burhum [mailto:r...@burhum.com] Enviada: sexta-feira, 18 de Junho de 2010 16:31 Para: Peter J Halls Cc: Duarte Carreira; gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org; Eric Wolf; Matt Wilkie Assunto: Re: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support This is meant to be an export/import type of thing. So you won't be able to open something in ArcMap and start manipulating it live using the ArcMap/ArcCatalog tools. The other approach I am proposing would be OGR as a seamless datasource that integrates with ArcGIS at the data access layer level. It would be transparent to the other tools. - Ragi On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 5:49 AM, Peter J Halls p.ha...@york.ac.ukmailto:p.ha...@york.ac.uk wrote: And ... I think I may have found the file geodatabase documentation promised ... in the online ArecGIS 10 documentation, Administrator Library, Architecture of a geodatabase, Geodatabase XML. It would appear that, in addition to the XML Schema they published several years ago, the XML documentation has been augmented with a view to interoperability being achieved at the XML level. So, maybe no, they have not published the binary structure but they may have published enough to enable XML exchange. I've not read all the material - and I would need to think about much of it before I understood it. Whether there is enough there I cannot say ... I was looking at http://help.arcgis.com/en/arcgisdesktop/10.0/help/index.html Best wishes, Peter ___ gdal-dev mailing list gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/gdal-dev
Re: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support
Another way to achieve interoperability is via a DBMS for which there is an SDE implementation, although this may not be appropriate for Matt Wilkie's requirements. It may not be always as easy as with shapefiles but it does not have the limitations. Having said that, in our Oracle environment I do have a problem getting SDE to recognise some spatial datasets created with GDAL but have yet to prove what is happening to cause this and so cannot point a finger of blame in any direction ... Best wishes, Peter Duarte Carreira wrote: Matt, the only reason I have seen presented for some reluctance in pushing spatialite as a de facto standard following shapefile's success, is not having a foothold in the closed source sector. That's the only thing ESRI's fgdb could potentially offer, since the extra data types supported will not be available outside ESRI's software (Terrain, Topology, Networks, etc.). (As for interoperability with ESRI, its users can always export to shapefile. Ofcourse I would prefer to directly read fgdb data but if not possible it's ok too.) So the question is: is it true that for a new universal spatial format to be born it has to have at least read support in the closed source world? Duarte -Mensagem original- De: Matt Wilkie [mailto:map...@gmail.com] Enviada: terça-feira, 15 de Junho de 2010 22:52 Para: gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org Assunto: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support I think discussing a shapefile successor, or even perhaps a code sprint, is a very good topic for FOSS4G. This same thread that we're weaving now is/has happened on a number mailing lists and usually generated dozens of responses each time. The interest is clear. From my vantage the germinating seed crystal could be spatialite, but there seems to be some general reluctance to jump on board. I'm ignorant of the reasons for that, perhaps that will come out at FOSS4G; wish I could be there! Ivan: I personally welcome and will use a gdal/ogr that uses the currently installed arcgis libraries however for the health of the industry I'd like to see unencumbered access. Thanks for letting me know at least part of my ramblings are of interest cheers, -matt -- View this message in context: http://osgeo-org.1803224.n2.nabble.com/gdal-dev-ESRI-file-geodatabase-support-tp5159756p5183957.html Sent from the GDAL - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ gdal-dev mailing list gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/gdal-dev -- Peter J Halls, GIS Advisor, University of York Telephone: 01904 433806 Fax: 01904 433740 Snail mail: Computing Service, University of York, Heslington, York YO10 5DD This message has the status of a private and personal communication ___ gdal-dev mailing list gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/gdal-dev
Re: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support
Matt's chicken-and-egg point seems dead-on. Except that Jack Dangermond abhors a vacuum and ESRI has been focused on higher-order issues than file formats. They are trying to provide topological constraints in the database (or file) and things like geometric networks (which are really just a set of topologically consistent linear features). The good ol' Shapefile doesn't even come close to cutting the mustard. ArcSDE imposes these on other RDBMS. The Personal Geodatabases did it in MDBs. And the File Geodatabase does it without dependency on Microsoft Jet. Another way to look at the open spec issue (which echoes ESRIs sentiment) is that it's rather easy to screw up topology constraints. As Peter mentioned, SDE sometimes doesn't like Oracle tables created by GDAL. The format of the tables may be fine - but the topological relations may not be right. I'm betting ESRI created File Geodatabase mainly to get away from the Personal Geodatabase because it was too easy to muck with the MDB in Access and screw up the higher order relationships. File Geodatabases, like Shapefiles and Personal Geodatabases, are intended as a means to exchange data. You export your data from ArcSDE into one of these formats and give it to someone to use. Shapefiles are stripped of topology. Personal Geodatabases only really work on platforms Microsoft supports. File Geodatabases are the next logical step. SpatialLite seems like a really strong contender. How do we get ESRI to play along? -=--=---===---=--=-=--=---==---=--=-=- Eric B. WolfNew! 720-334-7734 USGS Geographer Center of Excellence in GIScience PhD Student CU-Boulder - Geography GPG Public Key: http://www.h4h.net/ebwolf.public.key.txt On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:21 AM, Peter J Halls p.ha...@york.ac.uk wrote: Another way to achieve interoperability is via a DBMS for which there is an SDE implementation, although this may not be appropriate for Matt Wilkie's requirements. It may not be always as easy as with shapefiles but it does not have the limitations. Having said that, in our Oracle environment I do have a problem getting SDE to recognise some spatial datasets created with GDAL but have yet to prove what is happening to cause this and so cannot point a finger of blame in any direction ... Best wishes, Peter Duarte Carreira wrote: Matt, the only reason I have seen presented for some reluctance in pushing spatialite as a de facto standard following shapefile's success, is not having a foothold in the closed source sector. That's the only thing ESRI's fgdb could potentially offer, since the extra data types supported will not be available outside ESRI's software (Terrain, Topology, Networks, etc.). (As for interoperability with ESRI, its users can always export to shapefile. Ofcourse I would prefer to directly read fgdb data but if not possible it's ok too.) So the question is: is it true that for a new universal spatial format to be born it has to have at least read support in the closed source world? Duarte -Mensagem original- De: Matt Wilkie [mailto:map...@gmail.com] Enviada: terça-feira, 15 de Junho de 2010 22:52 Para: gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org Assunto: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support I think discussing a shapefile successor, or even perhaps a code sprint, is a very good topic for FOSS4G. This same thread that we're weaving now is/has happened on a number mailing lists and usually generated dozens of responses each time. The interest is clear. From my vantage the germinating seed crystal could be spatialite, but there seems to be some general reluctance to jump on board. I'm ignorant of the reasons for that, perhaps that will come out at FOSS4G; wish I could be there! Ivan: I personally welcome and will use a gdal/ogr that uses the currently installed arcgis libraries however for the health of the industry I'd like to see unencumbered access. Thanks for letting me know at least part of my ramblings are of interest cheers, -matt -- View this message in context: http://osgeo-org.1803224.n2.nabble.com/gdal-dev-ESRI-file-geodatabase-support-tp5159756p5183957.html Sent from the GDAL - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ gdal-dev mailing list gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/gdal-dev -- Peter J Halls, GIS Advisor, University of York Telephone: 01904 433806 Fax: 01904 433740 Snail mail: Computing Service, University of York, Heslington, York YO10 5DD This message has the status of a private and personal communication ___ gdal-dev mailing list gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/gdal-dev
RE: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support
Well, if SpatiaLite offers some proper benefits and disseminates through all of the FOSS world, then it may get a strong enough push even for ESRI to pick it up. It happened before... (kml?) If SL would: 1) Be as fast as shapefile in production settings, desktop and webgis 2) Offer SQL support, spatial and otherwise, also through desktop tools like QGIS 3) Allow editing while serving (even if for 1 editor only) 4) Better support in QGIS than for shapefile (take advantage of Spatial SQL, all other functionality) 5) Same for MapServer, GeoServer, gvSIG, et al. 6) Allow easy managing of rasters inside the .db file, through QGIS 7) ??more ideas/requests?? Then it would be a very, very good contender... and the ball would be kicked to the other side. And it seems we're already there for some of the listed features. Duarte De: Eric Wolf [mailto:ebw...@gmail.com] Enviada: quinta-feira, 17 de Junho de 2010 17:33 Para: Peter J Halls Cc: gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org; Matt Wilkie Assunto: Re: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support Matt's chicken-and-egg point seems dead-on. Except that Jack Dangermond abhors a vacuum and ESRI has been focused on higher-order issues than file formats. They are trying to provide topological constraints in the database (or file) and things like geometric networks (which are really just a set of topologically consistent linear features). The good ol' Shapefile doesn't even come close to cutting the mustard. ArcSDE imposes these on other RDBMS. The Personal Geodatabases did it in MDBs. And the File Geodatabase does it without dependency on Microsoft Jet. Another way to look at the open spec issue (which echoes ESRIs sentiment) is that it's rather easy to screw up topology constraints. As Peter mentioned, SDE sometimes doesn't like Oracle tables created by GDAL. The format of the tables may be fine - but the topological relations may not be right. I'm betting ESRI created File Geodatabase mainly to get away from the Personal Geodatabase because it was too easy to muck with the MDB in Access and screw up the higher order relationships. File Geodatabases, like Shapefiles and Personal Geodatabases, are intended as a means to exchange data. You export your data from ArcSDE into one of these formats and give it to someone to use. Shapefiles are stripped of topology. Personal Geodatabases only really work on platforms Microsoft supports. File Geodatabases are the next logical step. SpatialLite seems like a really strong contender. How do we get ESRI to play along? -=--=---===---=--=-=--=---==---=--=-=- Eric B. WolfNew! 720-334-7734 USGS Geographer Center of Excellence in GIScience PhD Student CU-Boulder - Geography GPG Public Key: http://www.h4h.net/ebwolf.public.key.txt On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:21 AM, Peter J Halls p.ha...@york.ac.ukmailto:p.ha...@york.ac.uk wrote: Another way to achieve interoperability is via a DBMS for which there is an SDE implementation, although this may not be appropriate for Matt Wilkie's requirements. It may not be always as easy as with shapefiles but it does not have the limitations. Having said that, in our Oracle environment I do have a problem getting SDE to recognise some spatial datasets created with GDAL but have yet to prove what is happening to cause this and so cannot point a finger of blame in any direction ... Best wishes, Peter Duarte Carreira wrote: Matt, the only reason I have seen presented for some reluctance in pushing spatialite as a de facto standard following shapefile's success, is not having a foothold in the closed source sector. That's the only thing ESRI's fgdb could potentially offer, since the extra data types supported will not be available outside ESRI's software (Terrain, Topology, Networks, etc.). (As for interoperability with ESRI, its users can always export to shapefile. Ofcourse I would prefer to directly read fgdb data but if not possible it's ok too.) So the question is: is it true that for a new universal spatial format to be born it has to have at least read support in the closed source world? Duarte -Mensagem original- De: Matt Wilkie [mailto:map...@gmail.commailto:map...@gmail.com] Enviada: terça-feira, 15 de Junho de 2010 22:52 Para: gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.orgmailto:gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org Assunto: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support I think discussing a shapefile successor, or even perhaps a code sprint, is a very good topic for FOSS4G. This same thread that we're weaving now is/has happened on a number mailing lists and usually generated dozens of responses each time. The interest is clear. From my vantage the germinating seed crystal could be spatialite, but there seems to be some general reluctance to jump on board. I'm ignorant of the reasons for that, perhaps that will come out at FOSS4G; wish I could be there! Ivan: I personally welcome and will use a gdal/ogr
RE: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support
From: Duarte Carreira dcarre...@edia.pt Subject: RE: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support To: Eric Wolf ebw...@gmail.com, Peter J Halls p.ha...@york.ac.uk Cc: gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org, Matt Wilkie map...@gmail.com Well, if SpatiaLite offers some proper benefits and disseminates through all of the FOSS world, then it may get a strong enough push even for ESRI to pick it up. It happened before... (kml?) If SL would: 1) Be as fast as shapefile in production settings, desktop and webgis 2) Offer SQL support, spatial and otherwise, also through desktop tools like QGIS 3) Allow editing while serving (even if for 1 editor only) 4) Better support in QGIS than for shapefile (take advantage of Spatial SQL, all other functionality) 5) Same for MapServer, GeoServer, gvSIG, et al. 6) Allow easy managing of rasters inside the .db file, through QGIS 7) ??more ideas/requests?? Then it would be a very, very good contender... and the ball would be kicked to the other side. And it seems we're already there for some of the listed features. Duarte Or even better, instead of waiting and complaining, we could just write a GeoDatabase OGR (ESRI) Workspace ourselves. There are already examples of working ones out there http://svn.obtusesoft.com/core/trunk/ So instead of hoping and pleading for support, someone should just sit down and write it. I started one at one point (C++), got side tracked with other things. If anyone is interested in that source code, I would be happy to share that too. - Ragi ___ gdal-dev mailing list gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/gdal-dev
RE: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support
Matt, the only reason I have seen presented for some reluctance in pushing spatialite as a de facto standard following shapefile's success, is not having a foothold in the closed source sector. That's the only thing ESRI's fgdb could potentially offer, since the extra data types supported will not be available outside ESRI's software (Terrain, Topology, Networks, etc.). (As for interoperability with ESRI, its users can always export to shapefile. Ofcourse I would prefer to directly read fgdb data but if not possible it's ok too.) So the question is: is it true that for a new universal spatial format to be born it has to have at least read support in the closed source world? Duarte -Mensagem original- De: Matt Wilkie [mailto:map...@gmail.com] Enviada: terça-feira, 15 de Junho de 2010 22:52 Para: gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org Assunto: [gdal-dev] Re: ESRI file geodatabase support I think discussing a shapefile successor, or even perhaps a code sprint, is a very good topic for FOSS4G. This same thread that we're weaving now is/has happened on a number mailing lists and usually generated dozens of responses each time. The interest is clear. From my vantage the germinating seed crystal could be spatialite, but there seems to be some general reluctance to jump on board. I'm ignorant of the reasons for that, perhaps that will come out at FOSS4G; wish I could be there! Ivan: I personally welcome and will use a gdal/ogr that uses the currently installed arcgis libraries however for the health of the industry I'd like to see unencumbered access. Thanks for letting me know at least part of my ramblings are of interest cheers, -matt -- View this message in context: http://osgeo-org.1803224.n2.nabble.com/gdal-dev-ESRI-file-geodatabase-support-tp5159756p5183957.html Sent from the GDAL - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ gdal-dev mailing list gdal-dev@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/gdal-dev
