Re: gEDA-user: PCB: coordinates and angles of the components
On 12/02/2010 12:40 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: Yes, but as I pointed out earlier, it doesn't do what I want. It averages the coordinates of the pins/pads, and it is not good when you working with asymmetric element such as SOT223. So change it :-) Could you pinpoint the function/source file? I should be able to knock out something pretty quickly - the centroid would be the center of the bounding box, which is already implemented elsewhere in PCB, IIRC. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB: coordinates and angles of the components
Could you pinpoint the function/source file? I should be able to knock out something pretty quickly - the centroid would be the center of the bounding box, which is already implemented elsewhere in PCB, IIRC. src/hid/bom/bom.c That handles both BOM and XYRS exporters. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB: coordinates and angles of the components
On Wed, 01 Dec 2010 19:38:32 -0500 Ethan Swint eswint.r...@verizon.net wrote: Sorry for my late reply - but have you tried the BOM export (File - Export Layout-BOM). One of the output files from that is an XYRS (X, Y, Rotation, Side) text file. http://archives.seul.org/geda/user/Feb-2009/msg00351.html Yes, but as I pointed out earlier, it doesn't do what I want. It averages the coordinates of the pins/pads, and it is not good when you working with asymmetric element such as SOT223. cheers, Levente -- Kovacs Levente leventel...@gmail.com Voice: +36705071002 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB: coordinates and angles of the components
At 05:20 AM 12/2/2010, you wrote: On Wed, 01 Dec 2010 19:38:32 -0500 Ethan Swint eswint.r...@verizon.net wrote: Sorry for my late reply - but have you tried the BOM export (File - Export Layout-BOM). One of the output files from that is an XYRS (X, Y, Rotation, Side) text file. http://archives.seul.org/geda/user/Feb-2009/msg00351.html Yes, but as I pointed out earlier, it doesn't do what I want. It averages the coordinates of the pins/pads, and it is not good when you working with asymmetric element such as SOT223. My experience is that there are two points on a pick and place package. There is the centroid, which I understood to be the center of the outline of the part and is used to define the orientation point on the part for positioning. There is also a pick point which has to be in a spot where the vacuum nozzle can lift the component. This are mostly the same spot, but on unusual parts, not always. I can't imagine the XYRS file generator is not capable of outputting the appropriate centroid position. Is it possible that you are seeing the pick point thinking it is the centroid? The feedback from my assemblers is that I should give the X and Y coordiates of the centroid of the part for placing it on the board. The rotation is nice for them to have, but they mostly don't trust them and so always go through a process of verifying both placement and rotation of each part as it is placed on the board for the first item. It may actually be a virtual dry run using the machine display. But they have told me they ignore all other info such as glue spots and pick points. They know where they want the glue spots and pick points and have no reason to trust your data for that. If the XYRS file output does not output proper centroids, I see this as a major issue. If they are not outputting the correct value for asymmetric parts, how do you see the centroid being defined exactly? Rick ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB: coordinates and angles of the components
Yes, but as I pointed out earlier, it doesn't do what I want. It averages the coordinates of the pins/pads, and it is not good when you working with asymmetric element such as SOT223. So change it :-) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB: coordinates and angles of the components
On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 12:21:00 -0500 Rick Collins gnuarm.2...@arius.com wrote: If the XYRS file output does not output proper centroids, I see this as a major issue. If they are not outputting the correct value for asymmetric parts, how do you see the centroid being defined exactly? Most of my footprints are generated, and the zero point is the center of the package. I think they are OK for pick point. There are other footprints, which I made manually. In that case, I imagine the best pick point and I put the zero point there. Levente -- Levente Kovacs http://levente.logonex.eu ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB: coordinates and angles of the components
On Thu, 2 Dec 2010 12:40:39 -0500 DJ Delorie d...@delorie.com wrote: So change it :-) I rather write scripts than modify the source... Please note that my script now calculates placement angles as well! :-) -- Levente Kovacs http://levente.logonex.eu ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB: coordinates and angles of the components
At 02:36 PM 12/2/2010, you wrote: On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 12:21:00 -0500 Rick Collins gnuarm.2...@arius.com wrote: If the XYRS file output does not output proper centroids, I see this as a major issue. If they are not outputting the correct value for asymmetric parts, how do you see the centroid being defined exactly? Most of my footprints are generated, and the zero point is the center of the package. I think they are OK for pick point. There are other footprints, which I made manually. In that case, I imagine the best pick point and I put the zero point there. I'm not asking about the pick point. I'm asking about the centroid. They are completely different things. As I think I said, the centroid is to tell the assembly house where to put the part. The pick point is a point on the part where the machine will attach the nozzle and has nothing to do with the position where the part is to be placed. Further, regardless of how you set your files, the pick point is selected by the assembly house to optimize how they pick the part. You have no way of knowing where this will be. The centroid needs to be a spot on the part that everyone knows without requiring it to be explained. Unfortunately for oddly shaped parts, it does not seem to be well understood how to select the centroid. One document I have from Screaming Circuits says it is the center of the part including the pins and the body. I have yet to be able to find this info in an IPC document. The IPC document seems to leave out some other important info about rotations. You would think they would figure out this is a problem and fix it... I can't say if your centroids will give you trouble, but from what you are telling me, you are not defining them correctly. From what I have read, I'm not sure PCB does it correctly either. I found some references on the web that says they use the geometric center of the pins not including the package. I don't think that is right. Screaming circuits is not the ultimate reference for defining how this is to be done, but they have a document that covers all the bases and is easy to understand. In fact, when I pointed out that they had a discrpancy with the IPC docs, they immediately fixed it and put the updated doc on their web site. [1]www.screamingcircuits.com Rick References 1. http://www.screamingcircuits.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB: coordinates and angles of the components
On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 15:44:34 -0500 Rick Collins gnuarm.2...@arius.com wrote: I'm not asking about the pick point. I'm asking about the centroid. They are completely different things. As I think I said, the centroid is to tell the assembly house where to put the part. The pick point is a point on the part where the machine will attach the nozzle and has nothing to do with the position where the part is to be placed. Further, regardless of how you set your files, the pick point is selected by the assembly house to optimize how they pick the part. You have no way of knowing where this will be. That is good news. The centroid needs to be a spot on the part that everyone knows without requiring it to be explained. Unfortunately for oddly shaped parts, it does not seem to be well understood how to select the centroid. One document I have from Screaming Circuits says it is the center of the part including the pins and the body. I have yet to be able to find this info in an IPC document. The IPC document seems to leave out some other important info about rotations. You would think they would figure out this is a problem and fix it... I can't say if your centroids will give you trouble, but from what you are telling me, you are not defining them correctly. From what I have read, I'm not sure PCB does it correctly either. I found some references on the web that says they use the geometric center of the pins not including the package. I don't think that is right. Screaming circuits is not the ultimate reference for defining how this is to be done, but they have a document that covers all the bases and is easy to understand. In fact, when I pointed out that they had a discrpancy with the IPC docs, they immediately fixed it and put the updated doc on their web site. www.screamingcircuits.com Okay. Thank you for pointing out all that. I think I'll be fine with the centroids. It states that the centroid must be the center of the entire footprint. It gave me some information about the rotating angle. I go and tweak my script. Thank you again, Levente -- Levente Kovacs http://levente.logonex.eu ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB: coordinates and angles of the components
On Wed, 01 Dec 2010 01:58:06 +0100 kai-martin knaak k...@familieknaak.de wrote: Is the goal you achieve a common one? If so, can the script be included in the distribution of pcb in some way, please? It would spare other users the need to reinvent the wheel. This is a good question. Well, I made a few scripts in the past. They are here: http://git.logonex.eu/?p=utils4geda.git;a=tree If someone thinks that some of them are worth distributing along with gEDA/PCB, then it can be downloaded from here. However, I don't think they should go with PCB. Instead I'd create a PCB goodies package, which would be full of scripts, and user contributed stuff. Even, it would be enough to have a web page full of user contributed links. Just my EUR 0.02 Note that the script now outputs the placement side of a particular element as well. Levente -- Kovacs Levente leventel...@gmail.com Voice: +36705071002 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB: coordinates and angles of the components
Kovacs Levente wrote: http://git.logonex.eu/?p=utils4geda.git;a=tree If someone thinks that some of them are worth distributing along with gEDA/PCB, then it can be downloaded from here. However, I don't think they should go with PCB. Instead I'd create a PCB goodies package, which would be full of scripts, and user contributed stuff. A goodies-package would be nice, indeed. I'd call it geda goodies and include symbol creation scripts and project set-up. If pcb and geda stuff in a single package touches religious feelings, there may be seperate goodies packages. Even, it would be enough to have a web page full of user contributed links. We already have such a website: gedasymbols.org :-) Can you put your scripts there, please? And add a short description what they are supposed to do... However, the goodies should be somewhat better organized than the multi user heap at gedasymbols. Scripts should be reviewed/tested by a third user and described in a contents file. This would provide some kind of quality control. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak tel: +49-511-762-2895 Universität Hannover, Inst. für Quantenoptik fax: +49-511-762-2211 Welfengarten 1, 30167 Hannover http://www.iqo.uni-hannover.de GPG key:http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=Knaak+kmkop=get ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB: coordinates and angles of the components
On 12/01/2010 04:53 AM, Kovacs Levente wrote: On Wed, 01 Dec 2010 01:58:06 +0100 kai-martin knaakk...@familieknaak.de wrote: Is the goal you achieve a common one? If so, can the script be included in the distribution of pcb in some way, please? It would spare other users the need to reinvent the wheel. This is a good question. Well, I made a few scripts in the past. They are here: http://git.logonex.eu/?p=utils4geda.git;a=tree If someone thinks that some of them are worth distributing along with gEDA/PCB, then it can be downloaded from here. However, I don't think they should go with PCB. Instead I'd create a PCB goodies package, which would be full of scripts, and user contributed stuff. Even, it would be enough to have a web page full of user contributed links. Just my EUR 0.02 Note that the script now outputs the placement side of a particular element as well. Levente Sorry for my late reply - but have you tried the BOM export (File - Export Layout-BOM). One of the output files from that is an XYRS (X, Y, Rotation, Side) text file. http://archives.seul.org/geda/user/Feb-2009/msg00351.html -Ethan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB: coordinates and angles of the components
On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 12:22:43 +0100 Kovacs Levente leventel...@gmail.com wrote: I have to put one of my boards into mass production. The factory require a text file which includes the coordinates of the SMDs, and their angle. The zero point must be at the lower left corner. I know the XY output of PCB, but it messes up the components with asymmetric pin layout (for example a SOT223 package). My wish would be to have some script which calculates the angle as the XY exporter, and simply put the coordinates of the component to the output file. Has anyone made such script? It would be great help. Answering to my own email... Thanks to open formats, I did it in an hour. The script searches for a special footprint (attached), and takes its position as reference. -- Levente Kovacs http://levente.logonex.eu refpoint.fp Description: Binary data gen_element_coords.pl Description: Perl program ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB: coordinates and angles of the components
Levente Kovacs wrote: Answering to my own email... Thanks to open formats, I did it in an hour. Is the goal you achieve a common one? If so, can the script be included in the distribution of pcb in some way, please? It would spare other users the need to reinvent the wheel. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
