Re: gEDA-user: Toporouter update?
John Griessen wrote: Anthony Blake wrote: On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 12:56 PM, Windell H. Oskay wind...@oskay.net wrote: Also, can anyone think of a new name for the toporouter? There is already a commercial tool called the 'toporouter', which I don't want us to be confused with. untangler runtangler ( route untangler) grouter (gnu router) grout grout grout... groroute(gnu re-ripping organic route tool) growroute (gnu re-arranging organic wire router) goroute (gnu organic route tool) routeknot ( route knot want not) greenlight sigroute vinerouter liquidroute streamroute flowroute lamroute (laminar algorithm mapping router) ziptrace curveroute wraproute John There's a man with a lot of time on his hands! Jim. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Toporouter update?
John Griessen wrote: kai-martin knaak wrote: Anthony Blake wrote: greenlight --- I'd strongly suggest to invent a new word rather than take an existing buzzword. The term greenlight currently yields 1.5 Mio google hits. A greenlight router would be almost as invisible to internet searches as pcb ;-) Oh, it wouldn't be that bad. Pcb is the tool's category name as well as being a common term. Searching for greenlight router would narrow down just fine. I would have liked to use the name 'greenstone', which has special meaning for NZ.. it is a type of jade only found here. Unfortunately my uni supervisor has already used that name for a project: http://www.greenstone.org/ Maybe we could call it the greenstone router? Cheers, Anthony ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Toporouter update?
Anthony Blake wrote: John Griessen wrote: kai-martin knaak wrote: Anthony Blake wrote: greenlight --- I'd strongly suggest to invent a new word rather than take an existing buzzword. The term greenlight currently yields 1.5 Mio google hits. A greenlight router would be almost as invisible to internet searches as pcb ;-) Oh, it wouldn't be that bad. Pcb is the tool's category name as well as being a common term. Searching for greenlight router would narrow down just fine. I would have liked to use the name 'greenstone', which has special meaning for NZ.. it is a type of jade only found here. Unfortunately my uni supervisor has already used that name for a project: http://www.greenstone.org/ Maybe we could call it the greenstone router? I like that name. There is also a greenstone which is unique to the Ely, Minnesota (USA) area. http://www.tc.umn.edu/~smith213/new_page_9.htm -Dan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Toporouter update?
Dan McMahill wrote: Anthony Blake wrote: I would have liked to use the name 'greenstone', which has special meaning for NZ.. it is a type of jade only found here. Unfortunately my uni supervisor has already used that name for a project: http://www.greenstone.org/ Maybe we could call it the greenstone router? I like that name. Sounds good, and if a NZ stone, its a natural. Reminds me of a rock name from near me with local meaning, a kind of granite that is grey with blue flecks found near Llano Texas called llanite. Llano is named after Spanish explorer Coronado's staked plain where he drove stakes to mark distance on the American great plains which swwep down to near Llano. LLano is bumpy hilly though -- the end of the plains. John ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Toporouter update?
-Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Anthony Blake Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 9:14 PM To: wind...@oskay.net; gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Toporouter update? On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Windell H. Oskay wind...@oskay.net wrote: ... btw, those toporouter guys are rather misleading with their results.. they show off pictures of boards which have been fixed up afterwards.. e.g., 20 mins of toporouter time, and 40 mins of hand editing for one of their boards. If that 20 minutes of toporouter time saves many hours of hand routing, then you're still way ahead. And while I'm on the subject of comparing autorouters.. I was looking at a Mentor license agreement the other day.. and I was shocked to see that they prohibit you from using it to compare results with other tools.. wtf.. Most database software companies have much the same restrictions. D ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Toporouter update?
On Thu, 2010-03-18 at 17:09 +1300, Anthony Blake wrote: Who's going to mentor you for GSOC purposes? Since Harry Eaton has never been shy with lots of really good criticism and comments regarding the toporouter (off list), I asked if he would be interested a few weeks ago.. Can you guys keep this on the geda-dev list in future.. it is always fun to see how things are progressing. Regards, -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Toporouter update?
Anthony Blake wrote: On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 12:56 PM, Windell H. Oskay wind...@oskay.net wrote: Also, can anyone think of a new name for the toporouter? There is already a commercial tool called the 'toporouter', which I don't want us to be confused with. untangler runtangler ( route untangler) grouter (gnu router) grout grout grout... groroute(gnu re-ripping organic route tool) growroute (gnu re-arranging organic wire router) goroute (gnu organic route tool) routeknot ( route knot want not) greenlight sigroute vinerouter liquidroute streamroute flowroute lamroute (laminar algorithm mapping router) ziptrace curveroute wraproute John ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Toporouter update?
On Thu, 2010-03-18 at 11:14 -0500, John Griessen wrote: Anthony Blake wrote: On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 12:56 PM, Windell H. Oskay wind...@oskay.net wrote: Also, can anyone think of a new name for the toporouter? There is already a commercial tool called the 'toporouter', which I don't want us to be confused with. untangler runtangler ( route untangler) grouter (gnu router) grout grout grout... groroute(gnu re-ripping organic route tool) growroute (gnu re-arranging organic wire router) goroute (gnu organic route tool) ^^^___ What does GNU have to do with any of this?? (g in gEDA is GPL, not GNU). routeknot ( route knot want not) greenlight -- Despite being the least router-ish of these names, I really like this one. sigroute vinerouter liquidroute ^^^___ avoid out of courtesy to the LiquidPCB folks streamroute flowroute lamroute (laminar algorithm mapping router) ziptrace curveroute wraproute -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Toporouter update?
Peter Clifton wrote: On Thu, 2010-03-18 at 11:14 -0500, John Griessen wrote: Anthony Blake wrote: On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 12:56 PM, Windell H. Oskay wind...@oskay.net wrote: Also, can anyone think of a new name for the toporouter? There is already a commercial tool called the 'toporouter', which I don't want us to be confused with. greenlight -- Despite being the least router-ish of these names, I really like this one. Hmm.. me too.. Since gEDA wasn't accepted into GSoC, I'm not going to be able to work on it as much as I would have liked unfortunately.. =( ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: toporouter update
Can you guys keep this on the geda-dev list in future.. it is always fun to see how things are progressing. Certainly, if Anthony and I discuss anything now that GSoc is not to be. Previously, I couldn't subscribe or send to the geda-dev list (or user for that matter). That's why Anthony and I were discussing off list. It was a comcast thing. harry ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: toporouter update
Harry Eaton wrote: Can you guys keep this on the geda-dev list in future.. it is always fun to see how things are progressing. Certainly, if Anthony and I discuss anything now that GSoc is not to be. I'm not going to stop working on the toporouter (greenlight?) just because Google didn't fund us. If people keep hassling me, I'll probably find the time for small commits here and there.. e.g., most of my work last year was an answer to some scathing criticism from Harry.. I *had* to do something after that =) Cheers, Anthony ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: toporouter update
On Mar 18, 2010, at 7:54 PM, Anthony Blake wrote: Can you guys keep this on the geda-dev list in future.. it is always fun to see how things are progressing. Certainly, if Anthony and I discuss anything now that GSoc is not to be. I'm not going to stop working on the toporouter (greenlight?) just because Google didn't fund us. If people keep hassling me, I'll probably find the time for small commits here and there.. e.g., most of my work last year was an answer to some scathing criticism from Harry.. I *had* to do something after that =) *hassle* *hassle hassle* -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: toporouter update
+1 *hassle* (i really like toporouter :) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: toporouter update
I'm not going to stop working on the toporouter (greenlight?) just because Google didn't fund us. If people keep hassling me, I'll probably find the time for small commits here and there.. e.g., most of my work last year was an answer to some scathing criticism from Harry.. I *had* to do something after that =) Aside from hassling (hassle hassle hassle), please let us know what we can do to help out. I've shallower pockets than google, but perhaps some other folks here would also be willing to pitch in to help make it worth your while. ;) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Toporouter Update
I'm not going to stop working on the toporouter (greenlight?) just because Google didn't fund us. If people keep hassling me, I'll probably find the time for small commits here and there.. e.g., most of my work last year was an answer to some scathing criticism from Harry.. I *had* to do something after that =) Gosh, I was thinking about making a parody of your website comparing the two routers in pcb, where I would show test cases where boards had SMD parts on both sides and the toporouter couldn't route it but the autorouter could, then some with some existing hand-routing on the board, one with a ground plane going unused by the toporouter, etc. But I thought that would be mean so I didn't do it. (Even though I figured it would goad you in to fixing those problems). Seriously, I didn't think my criticisms were scathing, they were meant to be helpful. In any event, I'm still happy to give my blunt assessment and crazy ideas going forward. Cheers, harry ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Toporouter Update
Harry Eaton wrote: I'm not going to stop working on the toporouter (greenlight?) just because Google didn't fund us. If people keep hassling me, I'll probably find the time for small commits here and there.. e.g., most of my work last year was an answer to some scathing criticism from Harry.. I *had* to do something after that =) Gosh, I was thinking about making a parody of your website comparing the two routers in pcb, where I would show test cases where boards had SMD parts on both sides and the toporouter couldn't route it but the autorouter could, then some with some existing hand-routing on the board, one with a ground plane going unused by the toporouter, etc. But I thought that would be mean so I didn't do it. (Even though I figured it would goad you in to fixing those problems). Haha, don't worry, I can handle it.. I'm sure I would have had a come back.. But yes, in retrospect the website is crap.. I would like to replace it with a script that automatically generates the website (including all the images and results) each time I change the algorithms. I do stand by my decision to spend more effort on single layer performance before implementing vias though. My single layer performance improved considerably, for example on Windell's MeggyJr board, the wiring was reduced by over 30 inches by some changes. Not only that, *many* bugs were eliminated as I worked on single layers only.. those bugs would have been much harder to fix if the situation were complicated with vias. I actually found it a little frustrating that I was simultaneously being told by some people to implement vias, but also to spend time stabilizing and fixing existing code.. I just couldn't please everybody! Seriously, I didn't think my criticisms were scathing, they were meant to be helpful. In any event, I'm still happy to give my blunt assessment and crazy ideas going forward. Sorry, scathing was the wrong word.. What I meant was the criticism was well targeted and straight to the point (because of your knowledge of the internals of autorouters), which was hugely helpful (even if I didn't agree.. it was great to talk about the issues). In the cases where I didn't agree, I felt I needed to prove it, and that was the motivation for most of my commits last year. Thanks Harry =) Cheers, Anthony ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Toporouter update?
Anthony Blake wrote: greenlight -- Despite being the least router-ish of these names, I really like this one. Hmm.. me too.. I'd strongly suggest to invent a new word rather than take an existing buzzword. The term greenlight currently yields 1.5 Mio google hits. A greenlight router would be almost as invisible to internet searches as pcb ;-) Since gEDA wasn't accepted into GSoC, I'm not going to be able to work on it as much as I would have liked unfortunately.. =( So let's concentrate to the most blocking of all issues: If I got it right, these are the inability to deal with preexisting tracks and the missing way to confine the router to selected nets. If these issues were solved, even the router would already be valuable as an abbreviation during manual routing. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Toporouter update?
On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 2:27 PM, kai-martin knaak k...@familieknaak.de wrote: So let's concentrate to the most blocking of all issues: If I got it right, these are the inability to deal with preexisting tracks and the missing way to confine the router to selected nets. If these issues were solved, even the router would already be valuable as an abbreviation during manual routing. The toporouter will already route a selection of nets if some nets are selected when the toporouter is invoked. But yes, if this worked with existing geometry it would be useful. Cheers, -- Anthony Blake ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Toporouter update?
Anthony Blake wrote: The toporouter will already route a selection of nets if some nets are selected when the toporouter is invoked. Nice! ---(kaimartin)--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: toporouter update
On Mar 18, 2010, at 9:15 PM, Anthony Blake wrote: Thanks for the offer =) On the one hand, I really want to finish the toporouter, and its hard while I'm studying full time.. so taking a funded break for a few weeks to work on the toporouter seems like a great option. On the other hand, there are a lot of other developers contributing code, and I'm not sure it would be fair if I received funding.. 1) It's YOUR autorouter. That makes you different in that regard. 2) If the only way you can contribute is with funding, and others are able to contribute without said funding, then, well, that's that. We're all friends here, I'm sure everyone understands. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Toporouter update?
On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 2:33 PM, kai-martin knaak k...@familieknaak.de wrote: Anthony Blake wrote: The toporouter will already route a selection of nets if some nets are selected when the toporouter is invoked. Nice! Also, it will only route on the currently visible layers. -- Anthony Blake ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: toporouter update
Anthony Blake wrote: most of my work last year was an answer to some scathing criticism from Harry.. I *had* to do something after that =) So, all we have to do is read the code, scratch our heads and find critiques to make and you'll be compelled to improve it? I may have to stay up late reading the code some... and send you some tip money too. John ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Toporouter update?
kai-martin knaak wrote: Anthony Blake wrote: greenlight --- I'd strongly suggest to invent a new word rather than take an existing buzzword. The term greenlight currently yields 1.5 Mio google hits. A greenlight router would be almost as invisible to internet searches as pcb ;-) Oh, it wouldn't be that bad. Pcb is the tool's category name as well as being a common term. Searching for greenlight router would narrow down just fine. JG ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Toporouter update?
Hi, On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 4:48 AM, Kai-Martin Knaak k...@familieknaak.de wrote: On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 09:10:29 -0500, Ethan Swint wrote: On 02/23/2010 06:46 PM, Anthony Blake wrote: Ok, then. Can you compile a list of tasks that need to be accomplished before the topo router is ready for general use? The smaler the individual tasks, the more likely they can be tackled by low time hackers like me... For sure. It would require some careful consideration though.. I'll get back to you within a week. Keep me in the loop, too. bump the topic up... Since this thread started, I've discussed continuing work on the toporouter with my Uni supervisors. They are OK with me taking time off from my PhD if the GSoC thing goes ahead. I would prefer to do most of the core work myself, rather than try and get others to implement my 'half baked' and untested ideas.. The idea of getting someone to implement something that I'm not even sure of myself doesn't seem right.. As for smaller individual tasks.. I was thinking that an abstraction layer for the autorouters might be a good idea. We now have 1.5 autorouters (very soon to be 2x complete autorouters), and an abstraction layer would help future work built on top of the autorouters, such as the auto-plow feature Harry Eaton mentioned, seamlessly switch between the underlying autorouters.. An abstraction layer would also be a good first step towards untangling the toporouter from PCB, and making it more of a general open source autorouter. Another small task, which would *really* help me, would be an automated testing framework for the autorouters. I would like to have some tool which I could throw a directory of unrouted boards at, and for each board it comes back with images of the output from the toporouter the autorouter, as well as performance results (wiring length, runtime etc). Someone also suggested switching out the absolute wiring length metric with sum of each nets wiring length to MST length ratio.. That would be a good small task to familiarize oneself with the toporouter autorouter code.. and the results would be very interesting if that metric is also used as the cost function in the net ordering. btw, if there are other little projects or features you would like to add.. I'm happy to help in anyway I can, including being available on IM/IRC to answer questions.. Also, can anyone think of a new name for the toporouter? There is already a commercial tool called the 'toporouter', which I don't want us to be confused with. Regards, Anthony ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Toporouter update?
Also, can anyone think of a new name for the toporouter? There is already a commercial tool called the 'toporouter', which I don't want us to be confused with. How about Awesomerouter? :D ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Toporouter update?
On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 12:56 PM, Windell H. Oskay wind...@oskay.net wrote: Also, can anyone think of a new name for the toporouter? There is already a commercial tool called the 'toporouter', which I don't want us to be confused with. How about Awesomerouter? :D Haha nice.. I used to route boards by hand, but then I became awesome instead. True story. -- Anthony Blake ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Toporouter update?
On Mar 17, 2010, at 8:17 PM, Anthony Blake wrote: Also, can anyone think of a new name for the toporouter? There is already a commercial tool called the 'toporouter', which I don't want us to be confused with. How about Awesomerouter? :D Haha nice.. I used to route boards by hand, but then I became awesome instead. True story. tea - keyboard -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Toporouter update?
Anthony Blake wrote: btw, if there are other little projects or features you would like to add.. Last time I checked, there were some real show-stoppers. E.g, the topo router would choke on preexisting tracks. I'd rather see these major issues resolved than divert energy toward added features. That said, I can surely come up with loads of feature requests. All kinds of suggestions to the router, layers exclusively for specific signals, customizable preferred directions, design rules that depend on the net, ... ;-) ---(kaimartin)--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Toporouter update?
On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 1:24 PM, kai-martin knaak k...@familieknaak.de wrote: Anthony Blake wrote: btw, if there are other little projects or features you would like to add.. Last time I checked, there were some real show-stoppers. E.g, the topo router would choke on preexisting tracks. I'd rather see these major issues resolved than divert energy toward added features. Absolutely agree with you about fixing those show-stoppers first.. the problem is none of those issues (e.g., vias, existing geometry etc) are small tasks suitable for people new to the toporouter to take on. I would prefer to deal with those issues myself as part of the GSoC this year. That said, I can surely come up with loads of feature requests. All kinds of suggestions to the router, layers exclusively for specific signals, customizable preferred directions, design rules that depend on the net, ... ;-) Yup, those are the features I really want to get other people implementing, so I can spend my time working on core features like vias and existing traces.. Cheers, -- Anthony Blake ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Toporouter update?
On 03/17/2010 08:24 PM, kai-martin knaak wrote: Anthony Blake wrote: btw, if there are other little projects or features you would like to add.. design rules that depend on the net, ... +1, for my work. -Ethan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Toporouter update?
Haha nice.. I used to route boards by hand, but then I became awesome instead. True story. tea - keyboard I suggest it because (1) it's awesome and (2) it's suggestive of 'autorouter. Back on topic now, we might get some good hints for future features from Toporouter (the commercial autorouter product). One of the ones that they tout is understanding logical equivalence of certain pins. You could further imagine a very advanced version of this that could select which slot of (say) a quad op-amp to use. But, let me also voice that I'm 100% behind getting the basics working first. I would *love* to be able to use this for even single sided boards, today. Adding in existing geometry is key. Vias would be great, too. :) Honestly, optimization beyond what's already there would be great for a future version, but I'm so craving just what I've seen so far. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Toporouter update?
On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Windell H. Oskay wind...@oskay.net wrote: Haha nice.. I used to route boards by hand, but then I became awesome instead. True story. tea - keyboard I suggest it because (1) it's awesome and (2) it's suggestive of 'autorouter. Back on topic now, we might get some good hints for future features from Toporouter (the commercial autorouter product). One of the ones that they tout is understanding logical equivalence of certain pins. You could further imagine a very advanced version of this that could select which slot of (say) a quad op-amp to use. I've already had a first stab at implementing that, in an effort to generate a good solution for DDR2-SDRAM - FPGA routing. It is very hard to do well, as the problem just gets even more NP-complete =) Since my first attempt year ago, I've learnt a few data mining/machine learning tricks, and I'm feeling much more confident about doing it *well* a second time around. btw, those toporouter guys are rather misleading with their results.. they show off pictures of boards which have been fixed up afterwards.. e.g., 20 mins of toporouter time, and 40 mins of hand editing for one of their boards. And while I'm on the subject of comparing autorouters.. I was looking at a Mentor license agreement the other day.. and I was shocked to see that they prohibit you from using it to compare results with other tools.. wtf.. Honestly, optimization beyond what's already there would be great for a future version, but I'm so craving just what I've seen so far. Thanks for your support! -- Anthony Blake ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Toporouter update?
Anthony Blake wrote: btw, those toporouter guys are rather misleading with their results.. they show off pictures of boards which have been fixed up afterwards.. e.g., 20 mins of toporouter time, and 40 mins of hand editing for one of their boards. That kind of partial route performance still enough to justify plenty of tool spending until layout is well automated. As in, not needing more than a day after netlist and footprints are verified to auto/hand route a 200 component board. And while I'm on the subject of comparing autorouters.. I was looking at a Mentor license agreement the other day.. and I was shocked to see that they prohibit you from using it to compare results with other tools.. wtf.. I guess the last thing the CAD companies want is a straight comparison. Who's going to mentor you for GSOC purposes? I hope Mentor or Cadence don't find out about you and make you an offer you can't refuse. John ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Toporouter update?
John Griessen wrote: I guess the last thing the CAD companies want is a straight comparison. We might be able to setup a system where people can anonymously post results generated with commercial tools, sort of like how deepchip.com works. Who's going to mentor you for GSOC purposes? Since Harry Eaton has never been shy with lots of really good criticism and comments regarding the toporouter (off list), I asked if he would be interested a few weeks ago.. I hope Mentor or Cadence don't find out about you and make you an offer you can't refuse. I doubt we are even on their radar =) In any case, I'm still a student for the next while, which isn't going to change.. Cheers, Anthony ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Toporouter update?
On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 09:10:29 -0500, Ethan Swint wrote: On 02/23/2010 06:46 PM, Anthony Blake wrote: Ok, then. Can you compile a list of tasks that need to be accomplished before the topo router is ready for general use? The smaler the individual tasks, the more likely they can be tackled by low time hackers like me... For sure. It would require some careful consideration though.. I'll get back to you within a week. Keep me in the loop, too. bump the topic up... ---(kaimartin)--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak tel: +49-511-762-2895 Universität Hannover, Inst. für Quantenoptik fax: +49-511-762-2211 Welfengarten 1, 30167 Hannover http://www.iqo.uni-hannover.de GPG key:http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=Knaak+kmkop=get ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Toporouter update?
On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:16:45 +1300, Anthony Blake wrote: I don't get a lot of time atm.. please jump in =) Ok, then. Can you compile a list of tasks that need to be accomplished before the topo router is ready for general use? The smaler the individual tasks, the more likely they can be tackled by low time hackers like me... ---(kaimartin)--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak tel: +49-511-762-2895 Universität Hannover, Inst. für Quantenoptik fax: +49-511-762-2211 Welfengarten 1, 30167 Hannover http://www.iqo.uni-hannover.de GPG key:http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=Knaak+kmkop=get ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Toporouter update?
Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:16:45 +1300, Anthony Blake wrote: I don't get a lot of time atm.. please jump in =) Ok, then. Can you compile a list of tasks that need to be accomplished before the topo router is ready for general use? The smaler the individual tasks, the more likely they can be tackled by low time hackers like me... For sure. It would require some careful consideration though.. I'll get back to you within a week. Cheers, Anthony ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Toporouter update?
On 02/23/2010 06:46 PM, Anthony Blake wrote: Ok, then. Can you compile a list of tasks that need to be accomplished before the topo router is ready for general use? The smaler the individual tasks, the more likely they can be tackled by low time hackers like me... For sure. It would require some careful consideration though.. I'll get back to you within a week. Keep me in the loop, too. -Ethan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Toporouter update?
Ethan Swint wrote: The last update on the toporouter looks like it was last June. Any news since then, or is it waiting for me to jump in to the code? ;) It looks fantastic. I don't get a lot of time atm.. please jump in =) FWIW - I think a better metric of router performance (instead of total track length as used on the web page http://www.wand.net.nz/~amb33/toporouter/detour.html), would be a statistical aggregation of the ratio of the individual nets track length compared to the minimal point-to-point length (think rat's nest). Hmm.. yup probably =) -Anthony ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Toporouter update?
On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 5:16 PM, Anthony Blake [1]tony...@gmail.com wrote: Ethan Swint wrote: The last update on the toporouter looks like it was last June. Any news since then, or is it waiting for me to jump in to the code? ;) It looks fantastic. I don't get a lot of time atm.. please jump in =) Does anyone know how to turn on the detour optimization or is it on by default? Thanks- Larry References 1. mailto:tony...@gmail.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Toporouter update?
On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 12:18 PM, Larry Battraw lbatt...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 5:16 PM, Anthony Blake [1]tony...@gmail.com wrote: Ethan Swint wrote: The last update on the toporouter looks like it was last June. Any news since then, or is it waiting for me to jump in to the code? ;) It looks fantastic. I don't get a lot of time atm.. please jump in =) Does anyone know how to turn on the detour optimization or is it on by default? It is on by default. At some point, for the purposes of comparison with earlier algorithm, there was a switch for it, but there isn't anymore. Regards, -- Anthony Blake ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
