Re: gEDA-user: pcb grid improvements... status of patch?
Andrew Poelstra wrote: > I'm not sure what to do about them. Right now I have a giant > table of default/max/min for all these units, which totals 12 > values per unit. Times ten currently-supported units, this is > 120 values! I'd be ok with some standard set of grid stops which gets coarser the coarser the grid is. Something like the E-series of resistors but with straighter numbers comes to mind. E.g: 1, 2, 5, 10, 20, 50, 100, 200, 500, 1000, 2000, ... or: 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, ... These series would work with every unit of length. If a user wants special grid stops for a specific unit, these may override the general formula. > The difference between settings and defaults could be as simple > as putting a preferences file in /etc/pcb. Things like min-width, > etc, would go in there, and by default the user's .pcb/preferences > would only contain menu-configurable things. This is not quite what I meant. I was talking about the values to be taken on start-up of a new layout (default values) as opposed to the values chosen for a specific project (actual values). The default values should be configurable by the user -- Preferably in the GUI. Currently, there is no clear distiction. It is all mixed in the preference file and in the pcb file. Some variables are used like actual values, some like default values. There may of course be system defaults to the default values. These should indeed go to /etc/pcb or /usr/local/share/pcb/ . ---<)kaimartin(>--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Email: k...@familieknaak.de http://pool.sks-keyservers.net:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x6C0B9F53 not happy with moderation of geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: pcb grid improvements... status of patch?
On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 01:56:23PM -0400, DJ Delorie wrote: > > > Great. As an astronomer, I really need to be able to define > > my PCB in astronomical units and parsecs :-) > > A while back, I had jokingly suggested supporting attoparsecs... And why we are at it, get rid of the 1/2 oz and similar copper weights, specify it in solar masses per square parsec instead :-) Gabriel ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: pcb grid improvements... status of patch?
On Wed, 13 Jul 2011 11:05:56 -0700 Colin D Bennett wrote: > On Wed, 13 Jul 2011 19:55:02 +0200 > Gabriel Paubert wrote: > > > Great. As an astronomer, I really need to be able to define > > my PCB in astronomical units and parsecs :-) > > You'll have to wait for 64-bit internal unit storage... > (when metric internals [nm units] is implemented) Correcting myself: 2**64 nm ≈ 0.123 AU 2**128 nm ≈ (2.3×10**18) AU I guess 64-bit numbers won't do it for you! Regards, Colin ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: pcb grid improvements... status of patch?
On Wed, 13 Jul 2011 20:30:43 -0700
Andrew Poelstra wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 02:09:13AM +0200, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote:
> > There is already some information in user preference that should
> > really be configurabel on a per project base. Skipping through the
> > file:
> >
> > grid-units-mm = 1
>
> This will turn into
> grid-units = mm
>
> I was quite frustrated to find that the .pcb file format has no
> way to store this (though it does store the grid visibility).
> Right now we check the grid spacing and try to guess which of
> mm/mil the user was using.
>
> Likely I will use an (Attribute "grid-unit" "mm") for this in
> future.
DJ suggests using a hierarchical namespacing of the Attribute names, as
in
Attribute("grid:unit" "mm");
Such organization of the Attribute namespace would help greatly.
Regards,
Colin
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Re: gEDA-user: pcb grid improvements... status of patch?
On Wed, 13 Jul 2011 19:55:02 +0200 Gabriel Paubert wrote: > On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 08:30:43PM -0700, Andrew Poelstra wrote: > > These too will be changed as we move away from a strict mm/mil > > configuration. > > > > I'm not sure what to do about them. Right now I have a giant > > table of default/max/min for all these units, which totals 12 > > values per unit. Times ten currently-supported units, this is > > 120 values! > > > > Storing defaults for all of them would require 40 lines... > > including things like cm, km, cmil, that most users would > > never use. Then what happens when we add support for new > > units? For user-defined units? > > Great. As an astronomer, I really need to be able to define > my PCB in astronomical units and parsecs :-) You'll have to wait for 64-bit internal unit storage... (when metric internals [nm units] is implemented) Regards, Colin ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: pcb grid improvements... status of patch?
> Great. As an astronomer, I really need to be able to define > my PCB in astronomical units and parsecs :-) A while back, I had jokingly suggested supporting attoparsecs... ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: pcb grid improvements... status of patch?
On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 08:30:43PM -0700, Andrew Poelstra wrote: > These too will be changed as we move away from a strict mm/mil > configuration. > > I'm not sure what to do about them. Right now I have a giant > table of default/max/min for all these units, which totals 12 > values per unit. Times ten currently-supported units, this is > 120 values! > > Storing defaults for all of them would require 40 lines... > including things like cm, km, cmil, that most users would > never use. Then what happens when we add support for new > units? For user-defined units? Great. As an astronomer, I really need to be able to define my PCB in astronomical units and parsecs :-) Regards and thanks for the work you're doing, Gabriel ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: pcb grid improvements... status of patch?
On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 02:09:13AM +0200, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: > There is already some information in user preference that should > really be configurabel on a per project base. Skipping through the > file: > > grid-units-mm = 1 This will turn into grid-units = mm I was quite frustrated to find that the .pcb file format has no way to store this (though it does store the grid visibility). Right now we check the grid spacing and try to guess which of mm/mil the user was using. Likely I will use an (Attribute "grid-unit" "mm") for this in future. > text-scale = 522 > bloat = 984 > shrink = 984 > grid-increment-mil = 5.00 > grid-increment-mm = 0.10 > size-increment-mil = 10.00 > size-increment-mm = 0.20 > line-increment-mil = 8.00 > line-increment-mm = 0.10 > clear-increment-mil = 2.00 > clear-increment-mm = 0.50 These too will be changed as we move away from a strict mm/mil configuration. I'm not sure what to do about them. Right now I have a giant table of default/max/min for all these units, which totals 12 values per unit. Times ten currently-supported units, this is 120 values! Storing defaults for all of them would require 40 lines... including things like cm, km, cmil, that most users would never use. Then what happens when we add support for new units? For user-defined units? Plus, preferences dialog for them is a facade. See bug 699464. > color-file = /home/kmk/.pcb/colors/layout_4layer > library-newlib = ~/geda/footprints:./footprints:. > > There are some variables, that clearly are no preference at > all, but change constantly when routing: > > via-thickness = 7086 > via-drilling-hole = 4330 > line-thickness = 9842 > > > Other preferences are just defaults to be used for new layouts: > min-width = 591 > min-silk = 591 > min-drill = 1575 > min-ring = 590 > groups = 1,2,3,c:4,5,6,s:7:8 > route-styles = (...snip...) > > In addition, sometimes PCB uses the values in .pcb/settings as > a default. I found no obvious general rule when it uses which. > This preferences/settings business feels messy and somewhat > random. I'd welcome a move toward a clear distinction between > "user preference" and "project settings" and between "settings" > and their "defaults". > The difference between settings and defaults could be as simple as putting a preferences file in /etc/pcb. Things like min-width, etc, would go in there, and by default the user's .pcb/preferences would only contain menu-configurable things. -- Andrew Poelstra Email: asp11 at sfu.ca OR apoelstra at wpsoftware.net Web: http://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: pcb grid improvements... status of patch?
Colin D Bennett wrote: >> Maybe we can store the grids in user preferences instead, >> but that's potentially a fair bit of work. > > Regardless of implementation difficulty, user preferences are NOT the > place to store grid configurations, since each layout will surely have > its own grid setup depending on the component packages and physical > constraints (board density etc.). +1 There is already some information in user preference that should really be configurabel on a per project base. Skipping through the file: grid-units-mm = 1 text-scale = 522 bloat = 984 shrink = 984 grid-increment-mil = 5.00 grid-increment-mm = 0.10 size-increment-mil = 10.00 size-increment-mm = 0.20 line-increment-mil = 8.00 line-increment-mm = 0.10 clear-increment-mil = 2.00 clear-increment-mm = 0.50 color-file = /home/kmk/.pcb/colors/layout_4layer library-newlib = ~/geda/footprints:./footprints:. There are some variables, that clearly are no preference at all, but change constantly when routing: via-thickness = 7086 via-drilling-hole = 4330 line-thickness = 9842 Other preferences are just defaults to be used for new layouts: min-width = 591 min-silk = 591 min-drill = 1575 min-ring = 590 groups = 1,2,3,c:4,5,6,s:7:8 route-styles = (...snip...) In addition, sometimes PCB uses the values in .pcb/settings as a default. I found no obvious general rule when it uses which. This preferences/settings business feels messy and somewhat random. I'd welcome a move toward a clear distinction between "user preference" and "project settings" and between "settings" and their "defaults". ---<)kaimartin(>--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Email: k...@familieknaak.de http://pool.sks-keyservers.net:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x6C0B9F53 not happy with moderation of geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: pcb grid improvements... status of patch?
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 05:47:39PM -0400, Vanessa Ezekowitz wrote: > > Why not add the Attribute() item as DJ suggested, but put it > at the top somewhere, inside a comment? Versions of PCB that > don't understand it would simply ignore it. > > Move it out of "commented out" status when that major file format > change that was talked about previously takes place. > > Same could hold true for any other optional/non-critical changes > to the file format. > In this case, we can add attributes without making any changes to the format. But in general, I would be strongly against any "magic comment"-style format changes. These would be hard to parse, cause fatal syntax errors on similar-looking comments, and make the file format even cruftier than it already is. The major file format change will be a change toward an extensible file format in which data and file structure are independent, so we will no longer break things by adding features. -- Andrew Poelstra Email: asp11 at sfu.ca OR apoelstra at wpsoftware.net Web: http://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: pcb grid improvements... status of patch ?
The current file format already supports Attribute() Sent by R2-D2 astromech droid -Original message- From: Vanessa Ezekowitz To: geda-user@moria.seul.org Sent: Tue, Jul 12, 2011 21:48:32 GMT+00:00 Subject: Re: gEDA-user: pcb grid improvements... status of patch? On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 21:06:02 -0700 Andrew Poelstra wrote: > On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 10:48:38AM -0700, Colin D Bennett wrote: > > > > To follow up on this, the bug with the new patch is at > > [1]https://bugs.launchpad.net/pcb/+bug/724154 > > also see the geda-user mailing list thread titled �Please test new > > grids for GTK PCB� started 24 Feb 2011: > > [2]http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.cad.geda.user/35867/ > > > > I have read through that bug report, though I haven't had > a change to apply and play with the attached patch. The > holdup right now is the file format change. We can't have > that. Why not add the Attribute() item as DJ suggested, but put it at the top somewhere, inside a comment? Versions of PCB that don't understand it would simply ignore it. Move it out of "commented out" status when that major file format change that was talked about previously takes place. Same could hold true for any other optional/non-critical changes to the file format. -- "There are some things in life worth obsessing over. � Most things aren't, and when you learn that, life improves." [3]http://digitalaudioconcepts.com Vanessa Ezekowitz ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org [4]http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user References 1. https://bugs.launchpad.net/pcb/+bug/724154 2. http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.cad.geda.user/35867 3. http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/ 4. http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: pcb grid improvements... status of patch?
On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 21:06:02 -0700 Andrew Poelstra wrote: > On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 10:48:38AM -0700, Colin D Bennett wrote: > > > > To follow up on this, the bug with the new patch is at > > https://bugs.launchpad.net/pcb/+bug/724154 > > also see the geda-user mailing list thread titled “Please test new > > grids for GTK PCB” started 24 Feb 2011: > > http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.cad.geda.user/35867/ > > > > I have read through that bug report, though I haven't had > a change to apply and play with the attached patch. The > holdup right now is the file format change. We can't have > that. Why not add the Attribute() item as DJ suggested, but put it at the top somewhere, inside a comment? Versions of PCB that don't understand it would simply ignore it. Move it out of "commented out" status when that major file format change that was talked about previously takes place. Same could hold true for any other optional/non-critical changes to the file format. -- "There are some things in life worth obsessing over. Most things aren't, and when you learn that, life improves." http://digitalaudioconcepts.com Vanessa Ezekowitz ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: pcb grid improvements... status of patch?
On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 21:06:02 -0700 Andrew Poelstra wrote: > Maybe we can store the grids in user preferences instead, > but that's potentially a fair bit of work. Regardless of implementation difficulty, user preferences are NOT the place to store grid configurations, since each layout will surely have its own grid setup depending on the component packages and physical constraints (board density etc.). Regards, Colin ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: pcb grid improvements... status of patch?
On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 21:06:02 -0700 Andrew Poelstra wrote: > On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 10:48:38AM -0700, Colin D Bennett wrote: > > > > To follow up on this, the bug with the new patch is at > > https://bugs.launchpad.net/pcb/+bug/724154 > > also see the geda-user mailing list thread titled “Please test new > > grids for GTK PCB” started 24 Feb 2011: > > http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.cad.geda.user/35867/ > > > > I have read through that bug report, though I haven't had > a change to apply and play with the attached patch. The > holdup right now is the file format change. We can't have > that. > > Maybe we can store the grids in user preferences instead, > but that's potentially a fair bit of work. As I suggested in the bug comments, we should be able to use “attributes” in the .pcb file without causing compatibility problems. Regards, Colin ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: pcb grid improvements... status of patch?
Grids could be stored as top-level attributes...
Attribute("grid:..." "");
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Re: gEDA-user: pcb grid improvements... status of patch?
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 10:48:38AM -0700, Colin D Bennett wrote: > > To follow up on this, the bug with the new patch is at > https://bugs.launchpad.net/pcb/+bug/724154 > also see the geda-user mailing list thread titled “Please test new > grids for GTK PCB” started 24 Feb 2011: > http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.cad.geda.user/35867/ > I have read through that bug report, though I haven't had a change to apply and play with the attached patch. The holdup right now is the file format change. We can't have that. Maybe we can store the grids in user preferences instead, but that's potentially a fair bit of work. -- Andrew Poelstra Email: asp11 at sfu.ca OR apoelstra at wpsoftware.net Web: http://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
