Re: gEDA-user: FUNDING
> Before this deteriorates into a "my software is better than your > software" contest, can I suggest that we try to keep things on-topic? An excellent suggestion. Peter >:-( -- Peter Brett Remote Sensing Research Group Surrey Space Centre ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: FUNDING
al davis wrote: > On Wednesday 15 December 2010, timecop wrote: >> Funny you mention that, this email reads perfectly fine in my >> closed-source email reader. > > Of course it does. You are using the same closed-source email > reader as Andrew does. Now, how about a different closed-source > email reader, like the one Rick uses? Before this deteriorates into a "my software is better than your software" contest, can I suggest that we try to keep things on-topic? ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: FUNDING
al davis wrote: > Just because Eudora on Windows can't cope with it? Who said Eudora? Who said Windows? I use neither. I read all my mail raw exactly as it comes across the wire, without using *any* MUA that does any decoding behind my back. I have a little program I wrote myself that decodes base64, but it's a major PITA. Hence if mail arrives in base64 and neither its source nor its subject line give a strong signal that it's important, it usually gets deleted by the firmware in my fingers without ever reaching my eyeballs. Any responses to this message that are encoded in base64 are likely to receive such fate. MS ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: FUNDING
On Wednesday 15 December 2010, Michael Sokolov wrote: > ... by way of standard open source mailing list managers > detecting and automatically rejecting posts encoded in > base64. Just because Eudora on Windows can't cope with it? ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: FUNDING
al davis wrote: > Base64 is a published standard that should be > universally supported. ... by way of standard open source mailing list managers detecting and automatically rejecting posts encoded in base64. Sorry, couldn't resist. MS ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: FUNDING
On Wednesday 15 December 2010, timecop wrote: > Funny you mention that, this email reads perfectly fine in my > closed-source email reader. Of course it does. You are using the same closed-source email reader as Andrew does. Now, how about a different closed-source email reader, like the one Rick uses? By the way ... it reads fine on my open-source email reader. I use several different open-source readers. All of them have no problem with base64, including "mutt" which is purely text based. Base64 is a published standard that should be universally supported. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: FUNDING
At 10:12 AM 12/15/2010, you wrote: I'm not sure about the 'base64' stuff, this is google's 'rich text format' some people prefer plain text on the mailing list so I've sent this straight to you. Hope its a bit easier to read. Thanks for the reply. I'm not clear on what you did differently. I have the run together line problem wiht Kaimartin and a couple of other folks here. I need to switch to a new email app, but I am not inclinded to do that until I have some serious down time. My email client is a very integral part of my work and even my life in a sense. I use email to organize nearly everything I do and changing apps will likely have a major adjustment period for me. So maybe after the new year I'll be able to communicate with this group a bit better. >> Negotiating with IEEE is a good idea. ... >> but I'd ask them to put links to our website, or give them lectures about the >> project. > I think working with the IEEE is a good idea. ... >  I am the chair of the IEEE consultants network in Washington, DC. I apologise for being flippant in my previous message - it's amazing who is listening! A talk would be great, I am unsure who is near Washington (anyone?) - the developers are very geographically distributed.  (part of the amazing world of open source development!) I would be happy to put forward case studies & images, if a potential speaker wanted it. I don't recall seeing anything flippant.  Would you consider a web cast? Anything offered would be welcome. Many of the consultants in the DC area are not hands on engineers like myself. But there are a number and any way we can reach them would be good. I personally am about 50 miles outside of DC and am just as close to Baltimore. So anything with do with the DC section can also be done with the Baltimore section. I can also try to contact other chapters and work with them as well. I think most Consultants Network chapters always welcome all contributions. In fact, I think "welcome" is putting it mildly. > I'm not sure how you might go  about getting money from them for FOSS development, > but there might be something available.  I have more experience with the IET in the UK, who sometimes have grants and things available,  but have trouble advertising them! I have no experience with finding funding from IEEE, but we can try to establish some contacts who know the ropes better. >  We would be interested in working with anyone here to help > promote gEDA to the rest of IEEE.  Specifically, we would be happy to host a > presentation if someone would like to tell our group about gEDA and why > consultants should be interested in supporting the project. gEDA (& FOSS in general) is powerful for consultants and small companies,  for example I can support designs indefinitely - knowing that I won't have to suddenly pay for a license fee for software that I might no longer use, just to access my own design! Compare this to a proprietary tool, where an instant fee would be required for theslightest change even years after I stop using that software for new designs. I have that problem with the FPGA tools I use. But it doesn't stop me from working in general. I can always get the license renewed to let me work, but I don't continue to get updates. Still, if I forget to renew the license and want to work on a project over the weekend, I am stuck until Monday. This has happened many times. >  I can introduce the group to some of the local IEEE bodies and explore > the possibilities available for funding. I can't really speak for the development team, but this sounds awesome to me! gEDA is a community driven project for engineers and by engineers - this really does make it a bit special.  The fact is that I find it has many qualities that are lacking in even the most expensive EDA tools.  Check out Peter C's open GL pcb branch to see some amazing looking PCB layout tools! What would be the next steps? To the developers:  How would you like to proceed? Like I said, I don't know what can be done in that regard, but we can explore. One thought is to organize a technical group devoted to open source technology. Hmmm... actually that might be a really good idea! How many gEDA users are there in the Washington/Baltimore area I wonder. I bet we can pull a number of them out of the woodwork with a well publicized presentation on open source tools and technology. > I would offer to be a spokesperson for gEDA, but I know little about it.  I > am here to try to learn. The learning curve can be steep at times; I think that this is because the workflow is a little more UNIX-like.  Stick with it if you can, learning gEDA gave me a better understanding of other tools too, so I hope you'll find it worthwhile. There is also a kind of exhilarating  feeling to knowing that the gEDA isn't going to limit you,  that is to s
Re: gEDA-user: FUNDING
> Thanks for the reply. It is a bit hard to read here because all the lines > are run together. Kaimartin has indicated this is because of using transfer > encoding "base64". Any chance you can resend this in a different format? Funny you mention that, this email reads perfectly fine in my closed-source email reader. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: FUNDING
Andrew, Thanks for the reply. It is a bit hard to read here because all the lines are run together. Kaimartin has indicated this is because of using transfer encoding "base64". Any chance you can resend this in a different format? Rick At 03:48 AM 12/15/2010, you wrote: >> Negotiating with IEEE is a good idea. ... >> but I'd ask them to put links to our website, or give them lectures about the >> project. > I think working with the IEEE is a good idea. ... > I am the chair of the IEEE consultants network in Washington, DC. I apologise for being flippant in my previous message - it's amazing who is listening! A talk would be great, I am unsure who is near Washington (anyone?) - the developers are very geographically distributed. (part of the amazing world of open source development!) I would be happy to put forward case studies & images, if a potential speaker wanted it. Would you consider a web cast? > I'm not sure how you might go about getting money from them for FOSS development, > but there might be something available. I have more experience with the IET in the UK, who sometimes have grants and things available, but have trouble advertising them! >  We would be interested in working with anyone here to help > promote gEDA to the rest of IEEE.  Specifically, we would be happy to host a > presentation if someone would like to tell our group about gEDA and why > consultants should be interested in supporting the project. gEDA (& FOSS in general) is powerful for consultants and small companies, for example I can support designs indefinitely - knowing that I won't have to suddenly pay for a license fee for software that I might no longer use, just to access my own design! Compare this to a proprietary tool, where an instant fee would be required for the slightest change even years after I stop using that software for new designs. > I can introduce the group to some of the local IEEE bodies and explore > the possibilities available for funding. I can't really speak for the development team, but this sounds awesome to me! gEDA is a community driven project for engineers and by engineers - this really does make it a bit special. The fact is that I find it has many qualities that are lacking in even the most expensive EDA tools. Check out Peter C's open GL pcb branch to see some amazing looking PCB layout tools! What would be the next steps? To the developers: How would you like to proceed? > I would offer to be a spokesperson for gEDA, but I know little about it.  I > am here to try to learn. The learning curve can be steep at times; I think that this is because the workflow is a little more UNIX-like. Stick with it if you can, learning gEDA gave me a better understanding of other tools too, so I hope you'll find it worthwhile. There is also a kind of exhilarating feeling to knowing that the gEDA isn't going to limit you, that is to say that there are no 'edges' - if you have the skills and the time (thought it could even mean delving into the code!) anything conceivable can be done! -- âââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââ    Andrew Whyte MEng CEng âââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââ¡ Â Â Â @ - a...@paramita-electronics.com    ⨠- www.paramita-electronics.com    â - +44 (0) 79 81 01 61 85 âââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: FUNDING
>> Negotiating with IEEE is a good idea. ... >> but I'd ask them to put links to our website, or give them lectures about the >> project. > I think working with the IEEE is a good idea. ... > I am the chair of the IEEE consultants network in Washington, DC. I apologise for being flippant in my previous message - it's amazing who is listening! A talk would be great, I am unsure who is near Washington (anyone?) - the developers are very geographically distributed. (part of the amazing world of open source development!) I would be happy to put forward case studies & images, if a potential speaker wanted it. Would you consider a web cast? > I'm not sure how you might go about getting money from them for FOSS > development, > but there might be something available. I have more experience with the IET in the UK, who sometimes have grants and things available, but have trouble advertising them! > We would be interested in working with anyone here to help > promote gEDA to the rest of IEEE. Specifically, we would be happy to host a > presentation if someone would like to tell our group about gEDA and why > consultants should be interested in supporting the project. gEDA (& FOSS in general) is powerful for consultants and small companies, for example I can support designs indefinitely - knowing that I won't have to suddenly pay for a license fee for software that I might no longer use, just to access my own design! Compare this to a proprietary tool, where an instant fee would be required for the slightest change even years after I stop using that software for new designs. > I can introduce the group to some of the local IEEE bodies and explore > the possibilities available for funding. I can't really speak for the development team, but this sounds awesome to me! gEDA is a community driven project for engineers and by engineers - this really does make it a bit special. The fact is that I find it has many qualities that are lacking in even the most expensive EDA tools. Check out Peter C's open GL pcb branch to see some amazing looking PCB layout tools! What would be the next steps? To the developers: How would you like to proceed? > I would offer to be a spokesperson for gEDA, but I know little about it. I > am here to try to learn. The learning curve can be steep at times; I think that this is because the workflow is a little more UNIX-like. Stick with it if you can, learning gEDA gave me a better understanding of other tools too, so I hope you'll find it worthwhile. There is also a kind of exhilarating feeling to knowing that the gEDA isn't going to limit you, that is to say that there are no 'edges' - if you have the skills and the time (thought it could even mean delving into the code!) anything conceivable can be done! -- ╒═╕ Andrew Whyte MEng CEng ╞═╡ @ - a...@paramita-electronics.com ⌨ - www.paramita-electronics.com ☎ - +44 (0) 79 81 01 61 85 ╘═╛ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: FUNDING
At 04:30 AM 12/14/2010, Kovacs Levente wrote: On Mon, 13 Dec 2010 09:02:15 + andrew whyte wrote: > Hi Everyone, ..snip.. > Because of the GERBER standard, FOSS stands a chance of creating > competitive tools for EDA, this is much more difficult in areas where > open standards don't exist. > > I don't know if this has come up before in this thread, but my > opinion is that we may be able to shake down the relevant industry > groups & government bodies. gEDA is special because it opens the > marketplace to SMEs. It seems to me that empowering individuals and > companies is the purpose of groups like the IEEE (& the IET in the > UK). Maybe they could spare some money for the development of a tool > that could bring a new standard to the development of electronic > products? Right now there is a big push to help small business hit by > the recession - perhaps governments might have the right buttons > pushed too? FOSS is about community and openness and opportunities > for all... right? Negotiating with IEEE is a good idea. I wouldn't ask for money (first time), but I'd ask them to put links to our website, or give them lectures about the project. Levente I think working with the IEEE is a good idea. I'm not sure how you might go about getting money from them for FOSS development, but there might be something available. I am the chair of the IEEE consultants network in Washington, DC. We would be interested in working with anyone here to help promote gEDA to the rest of IEEE. Specifically, we would be happy to host a presentation if someone would like to tell our group about gEDA and why consultants should be interested in supporting the project. Or maybe a better place to start would be the advantages of FOSS in general. Beyond that, I can introduce the group to some of the local IEEE bodies and explore the possibilities available for funding. I would offer to be a spokesperson for gEDA, but I know little about it. I am here to try to learn. Rick ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: FUNDING
Anthony Blake wrote: > We already have a decent footprint/symbol library.. Ermm, no. We don't have decent libraries. What we have, is two sets of inconsistent, incomplete libraries plus an orderless bunch of user contributions in gedasymbols.org. The default symbols refuse to give a clue what footprint to use. No hints for simulation models, either. IMHO, the current state of the libraries is a major weak spot of the gschem-pcb work-flow. ---<)kaimartin(>--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak tel: +49-511-762-2895 Universität Hannover, Inst. für Quantenoptik fax: +49-511-762-2211 Welfengarten 1, 30167 Hannover http://www.iqo.uni-hannover.de GPG key:http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=Knaak+kmk&op=get ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: FUNDING
On Mon, 13 Dec 2010 09:02:15 + andrew whyte wrote: > Hi Everyone, > > I realise that I am joining a very established thread, but I'd like > to put forward 2 cents worth. Please don't be offended if what I'm > saying isn't the same as your opinion. I have used gEDA as the main > (but not only) tool for EDA in my company for two and a half years, I > don't fully understand it - but I can use it for everything that I > need to do (principally draw schematics & layout PCBs). > > I know companies that would like to use gEDA, but must support a > back catalogue of designs that were created using other tools. That > is to say that they have no choice but to pay for their EDA tools. > > These people do pay alot for thier tools, but they have no chioce! > As a gEDA user, I am not tied to it, and can use whatever software > suits me. > > In an open software model, the companies choose to use a given tool > because it is the most cost effective in an open marketplace. Whilst > anyone who uses the tool is grateful to those who have created it, > they don't owe anything to the developers who have published their > source. Guilt complexes won't work on any shrewd business person; > and I doubt those tactics are what we want to be doing if we are to > encourage the adoption of gEDA as a standard tool in the industry > anyway. This sounds very negative, so I'll try to describe how I > think funding might be found. > > Because of the GERBER standard, FOSS stands a chance of creating > competitive tools for EDA, this is much more difficult in areas where > open standards don't exist. > > I don't know if this has come up before in this thread, but my > opinion is that we may be able to shake down the relevant industry > groups & government bodies. gEDA is special because it opens the > marketplace to SMEs. It seems to me that empowering individuals and > companies is the purpose of groups like the IEEE (& the IET in the > UK). Maybe they could spare some money for the development of a tool > that could bring a new standard to the development of electronic > products? Right now there is a big push to help small business hit by > the recession - perhaps governments might have the right buttons > pushed too? FOSS is about community and openness and opportunities > for all... right? Negotiating with IEEE is a good idea. I wouldn't ask for money (first time), but I'd ask them to put links to our website, or give them lectures about the project. I wouldn't go with a commercial company. We should stay open, and neutral. Levente -- Kovacs Levente Voice: +36705071002 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: FUNDING
Erm... I've clearly stimulated debate. I think we all agree that gEDA is alot better than the free hobbleware. I understand that the proposal to integrate with catalogues was somewhat contraversial, let's leave it at that. Government grants then. I noticed that 'seed funding' of up to 25kGBP will be available next month in the UK. link here: http://www.electronics-ktn.com/Portals/0/Members/Ashley.evans/TSB_FeasibilityStudiesForTechnologyInspiredInnovation_Web%20final.pdf . It has remits such as: "Developing production technologies that can create high value through novel processes, advanced product manufacture, resource efficiency or greater product customisation, or that create greater environmental sustainability through efficient disposal, recycling or re-manufacture" Obviously it would need to be fairly sensibly done, but it would be a few months of one engineer's time and probably only a week or twos work to get the funding. Andrew -- ╒═╕ Andrew Whyte MEng CEng ╞═╡ @ - a...@paramita-electronics.com ⌨ - www.paramita-electronics.com ☎ - +44 (0) 79 81 01 61 85 ╘═╛ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: FUNDING
Not at all. Just to goad you into a further negative rant on how a free product, created by volunteers bothers you. George On 12/13/2010 08:57 PM, timecop wrote: Why do you bother to subscribe to this list? Its obvious that $0.02 is worth more than your opinions. Why do you bother replying? Is it to show you agree or disagree? ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: FUNDING
On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 2:23 PM, timecop wrote: > Anyway tl;dr version: RS sucks, DesignSpark sucks, Eagle sucks, buying > a EDA suite to pimp to your customers as the only benefit of your > shitty stock/price practice = stupid. > > Also any designer too lazy to make symbols/footprints for a new part > should just /quit. Yeah, I don't think we should be trying to integrate the symbol/footprint library with some vendors database or webservices. We already have a decent footprint/symbol library.. But it would be worth replacing the footprints data structures & code and adding a decent padstack editor. I think DJ proposed this as part of the LinuxFund work.. has there been any progress towards this? Cheers, Anthony ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: FUNDING
> Why do you bother to subscribe to this list? Its obvious that $0.02 is > worth more than your opinions. Why do you bother replying? Is it to show you agree or disagree? ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: FUNDING
On 12/13/2010 08:23 PM, timecop wrote: Another option, that may not be acceptable to all, is that in the UK RS& Farnell both recently acquired small PCB development companies(DesignSpark& eagle respectively). The intention being the companies adopt the free tool which integrates easily with their catalogue and then buy more from them. This would be great if they You know a distributor fails it when the only way to lure in customers is by providing some half-assed EDA software which happens to have all their parts catalog footprints/symbols available. Digikey doesn't need to do that because they actually have things in stock, ship fast, and have worldwide free shipping deals for any reasonable kind of order, so they don't need to buy gEDA or Eagle to keep repeat customers. I had to order something from RS few days ago because their stuff arrives next day to my location as opposed to worst case 4 days wiht DigiKey Worldwide UPS, and I ended up paying $12 for *100* 1000pF capacitors. for $12 on Digikey you get a 4000-piece *REEL*. That and every resistor I had specced for the project I couldn't actually GET from RS. I had to waste time recalculating vreg resistors so i could match my order with shit RS had in stock. Ridiculous! Of course all this WAS available from DigiKey I just had to have it asap. So what ended up being a couple bags of resistors/caps/vregs cost me ~$90 from RS which would have been at most $16 from Digikey. Of course this is customer money and it just ended up being passed to them, but this is still stupid. I don't care how much money they poured into their stupid DesignSpark shit, their stuff is overpriced, in-stock selection is ridiculous, and their website is fucking unusable (how about sorting shit by stuff that's actually IN STOCK and not "comes from another country in 2 weeks" - its almost impossible to actually tell the difference between these 2 conditions because "in stock" indicator in the table is both GREEN in these times.) Anyway tl;dr version: RS sucks, DesignSpark sucks, Eagle sucks, buying a EDA suite to pimp to your customers as the only benefit of your shitty stock/price practice = stupid. Also any designer too lazy to make symbols/footprints for a new part should just /quit. my $0.02 worth. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user Why do you bother to subscribe to this list? Its obvious that $0.02 is worth more than your opinions. George ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: FUNDING
> Another option, that may not be acceptable to all, is that in the UK > RS & Farnell both recently acquired small PCB development > companies(DesignSpark & eagle respectively). The intention being the > companies adopt the free tool which integrates easily with their > catalogue and then buy more from them. This would be great if they You know a distributor fails it when the only way to lure in customers is by providing some half-assed EDA software which happens to have all their parts catalog footprints/symbols available. Digikey doesn't need to do that because they actually have things in stock, ship fast, and have worldwide free shipping deals for any reasonable kind of order, so they don't need to buy gEDA or Eagle to keep repeat customers. I had to order something from RS few days ago because their stuff arrives next day to my location as opposed to worst case 4 days wiht DigiKey Worldwide UPS, and I ended up paying $12 for *100* 1000pF capacitors. for $12 on Digikey you get a 4000-piece *REEL*. That and every resistor I had specced for the project I couldn't actually GET from RS. I had to waste time recalculating vreg resistors so i could match my order with shit RS had in stock. Ridiculous! Of course all this WAS available from DigiKey I just had to have it asap. So what ended up being a couple bags of resistors/caps/vregs cost me ~$90 from RS which would have been at most $16 from Digikey. Of course this is customer money and it just ended up being passed to them, but this is still stupid. I don't care how much money they poured into their stupid DesignSpark shit, their stuff is overpriced, in-stock selection is ridiculous, and their website is fucking unusable (how about sorting shit by stuff that's actually IN STOCK and not "comes from another country in 2 weeks" - its almost impossible to actually tell the difference between these 2 conditions because "in stock" indicator in the table is both GREEN in these times.) Anyway tl;dr version: RS sucks, DesignSpark sucks, Eagle sucks, buying a EDA suite to pimp to your customers as the only benefit of your shitty stock/price practice = stupid. Also any designer too lazy to make symbols/footprints for a new part should just /quit. my $0.02 worth. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: FUNDING
Hi Everyone, I realise that I am joining a very established thread, but I'd like to put forward 2 cents worth. Please don't be offended if what I'm saying isn't the same as your opinion. I have used gEDA as the main (but not only) tool for EDA in my company for two and a half years, I don't fully understand it - but I can use it for everything that I need to do (principally draw schematics & layout PCBs). I know companies that would like to use gEDA, but must support a back catalogue of designs that were created using other tools. That is to say that they have no choice but to pay for their EDA tools. These people do pay alot for thier tools, but they have no chioce! As a gEDA user, I am not tied to it, and can use whatever software suits me. In an open software model, the companies choose to use a given tool because it is the most cost effective in an open marketplace. Whilst anyone who uses the tool is grateful to those who have created it, they don't owe anything to the developers who have published their source. Guilt complexes won't work on any shrewd business person; and I doubt those tactics are what we want to be doing if we are to encourage the adoption of gEDA as a standard tool in the industry anyway. This sounds very negative, so I'll try to describe how I think funding might be found. Because of the GERBER standard, FOSS stands a chance of creating competitive tools for EDA, this is much more difficult in areas where open standards don't exist. I don't know if this has come up before in this thread, but my opinion is that we may be able to shake down the relevant industry groups & government bodies. gEDA is special because it opens the marketplace to SMEs. It seems to me that empowering individuals and companies is the purpose of groups like the IEEE (& the IET in the UK). Maybe they could spare some money for the development of a tool that could bring a new standard to the development of electronic products? Right now there is a big push to help small business hit by the recession - perhaps governments might have the right buttons pushed too? FOSS is about community and openness and opportunities for all... right? Another option, that may not be acceptable to all, is that in the UK RS & Farnell both recently acquired small PCB development companies(DesignSpark & eagle respectively). The intention being the companies adopt the free tool which integrates easily with their catalogue and then buy more from them. This would be great if they hadn't bought such poor tools (IMHO)! Perhaps the same or other catalogue companies could be convinced that they should pay for a little development to put in an automatic search or part number->attribute feature (and thereby support development of some other features too). I know that few developers would volunteer to develop the parts library for the entire Digikey catalogue, but if the money was right wouldn't it be a worthwhile venture!? This API could then be open to other companies to integrate catalouges too (so gEDA would remain unaffiliated). Finally, If a company spent 4k on a developer, they could contract them directly. As I understand the gpl (and I'm not a legal professional!), they wouldn't have to publish the developers work. They could legally branch from the main tree and continue to use their competitive advantage (in-house) since they'd spent the money to have feature X in their tool chain. It would be silly to give this to their competitors too, so the expectations for donations must be *much* lower so that companies and individuals get the features they want at a bargain price! A while ago a couple of us tried to organise gEDA training, and despite enthusiasm from the community, I had real trouble persuading those who didn't use it (which was kind of the point) - I had some success with a 30 page ebook proposal to the IEEE (which anyone would be very welcome to take over as I have financial constraints that mean that it has become dormant). Regards Andrew -- ╒═╕ Andrew Whyte MEng CEng ╞═╡ @ - a...@paramita-electronics.com ⌨ - www.paramita-electronics.com ☎ - +44 (0) 79 81 01 61 85 ╘═╛ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: FUNDING
On 12/12/2010 01:20 PM, Anthony Blake wrote: If I do it, I think I should aim for a full years worth of funding, which would be at least 50k. Three months is too short. What do you guys think? I have plans to use it for my low budget launches of open hardware products, so I've looked at it closely, and see that you are on the high side of successful projects at $50K. If you could think up a deliverable goal to reach with less, it would maybe fund. then you could do another. $10K works for kick-starters. Another thing is, some of your funders are already signed up and don't want the load of kickstarter, which requires using amazon payments that absorbs about 4%, and then kickstarter takes 5% off the top too, so you lose 9%. Instead of the high goal for a kickstarter, go for a low one and get it, then deliver, and keep your funders signed up for more, and do kick-starters only to get the new donors. Yes, to get donors, you need to give them a trinket. Makerbeam was successful making award-trophy-like premiums mark the different funding levels. So some board that doesn't even have to be functional, but looks good as a wall plaque, and then add different level's text to it, a la: $1000 contributor, $2000 contributor, $4000 contributor. but the most important ones for donors is going to be $10 contributor, $20 contributor, $30 contributor, $50 contributor... John Griessen ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: FUNDING (was: Random thoughts on the future interface of PCB)
On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 9:26 AM, Justyn Butler wrote: > On 10 December 2010 00:09, Stephen Ecob > wrote: >> On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 10:27 AM, wrote: >>> How about a Kickstarter project for the toporouter? Let Anthony make >>> a proposal and put it on www.kickstarter.com, and then gEDA users can >>> pledge donations. If it raises enough money by graduation (or >>> whatever other deadline), then we all fund Anthony to work on it. If >>> we don't raise enough, then nobody gets charged, the toporouter >>> languishes, and Anthony has to get a real job like (some of) the rest >>> of us. >> >> If we can raise enough for Anthony to get the toporouter working well >> (say to the point where it's working better than the existing >> autorouter for 2L and 4L boards), let's do it. >> Count me in for $4K. >> Anthony, how much funding would you need to get the toporouter working well ? > > A kickstarter project sounds like a great idea. I'd certainly contribute. > > As the funding only occurs if the goal is met, I'd personally recommend: > 1) Giving plenty of time before the deadline > 2) Considering bringing the target down from $4K, if that is possible. > Pledges can still continue once the target is met. Yeah, someone suggested a kickstarter a few months ago.. it might be worth a shot. When I had a look at kickstarter a while back, most projects offered different levels of rewards depending on the donation. Any ideas about what sort of rewards I should send to people who donate? I was thinking stuff like a toporouted arduino circuit board would make good gifts for those who donate. If I do it, I think I should aim for a full years worth of funding, which would be at least 50k. Three months is too short. What do you guys think? Regards, Anthony ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: FUNDING (was: Random thoughts on the future interface of PCB)
On 10 December 2010 00:09, Stephen Ecob wrote: > On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 10:27 AM, wrote: >> How about a Kickstarter project for the toporouter? Let Anthony make >> a proposal and put it on www.kickstarter.com, and then gEDA users can >> pledge donations. If it raises enough money by graduation (or >> whatever other deadline), then we all fund Anthony to work on it. If >> we don't raise enough, then nobody gets charged, the toporouter >> languishes, and Anthony has to get a real job like (some of) the rest >> of us. > > If we can raise enough for Anthony to get the toporouter working well > (say to the point where it's working better than the existing > autorouter for 2L and 4L boards), let's do it. > Count me in for $4K. > Anthony, how much funding would you need to get the toporouter working well ? A kickstarter project sounds like a great idea. I'd certainly contribute. As the funding only occurs if the goal is met, I'd personally recommend: 1) Giving plenty of time before the deadline 2) Considering bringing the target down from $4K, if that is possible. Pledges can still continue once the target is met. Justyn. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: FUNDING
On 12/09/2010 06:09 PM, Stephen Ecob wrote: how much funding would you need to get the toporouter working well That's always a tough question to answer... Unless it is for a limited feature, how do you define well?. A good question of Anthony is, "How much time would it take to reorganize what you have now so that the router will run from initial conditions of existing traces of any legal kind, and what are the legal-for-topo-routing shapes that can be there? If the router could be used incrementally, it would get much use right away. The refinements could come as they may, and more users would be likely to contribute rent money to allow that. I can only afford tip money right now, nothing close to $4K. John -- Ecosensory Austin TX ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: FUNDING
On 12/09/2010 05:03 PM, Stephen Ecob wrote: Thanks Robert, it's good to know I'm not the only one ! Stephen I've contribute tip money to gEDA tools and will again, and am working on business that will support more than tip money. John Griessen -- Ecosensory Austin TX ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: FUNDING (was: Random thoughts on the future interface of PCB)
On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 10:27 AM, wrote: > How about a Kickstarter project for the toporouter? Let Anthony make > a proposal and put it on www.kickstarter.com, and then gEDA users can > pledge donations. If it raises enough money by graduation (or > whatever other deadline), then we all fund Anthony to work on it. If > we don't raise enough, then nobody gets charged, the toporouter > languishes, and Anthony has to get a real job like (some of) the rest > of us. If we can raise enough for Anthony to get the toporouter working well (say to the point where it's working better than the existing autorouter for 2L and 4L boards), let's do it. Count me in for $4K. Anthony, how much funding would you need to get the toporouter working well ? ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: FUNDING (was: Random thoughts on the future interface of PCB)
How about a Kickstarter project for the toporouter? Let Anthony make a proposal and put it on www.kickstarter.com, and then gEDA users can pledge donations. If it raises enough money by graduation (or whatever other deadline), then we all fund Anthony to work on it. If we don't raise enough, then nobody gets charged, the toporouter languishes, and Anthony has to get a real job like (some of) the rest of us. On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 4:03 PM, Stephen Ecob wrote: > On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 9:45 AM, myken wrote: > >>> fund a full time developer. But it's nothing more than a pipe dream >>> unless there are others out there who think the same. >>> Does anyone else think the same ? >> >> I think the same, but I am also in the same position (start-up, tight >> cashflow). I use gEDA professionally (as a freelancer) but only for a >> few (1 or 2) small projects a year. If my situation changes (more money, >> more projects) I have no objection to a donation to the gEDA project. >> I'm trying to contribute to the project but it's a steep learning curve. >> I also agree with Levente, as the cheap Dutchman that I am, I like to >> see where my money will be spend. >> >> Just my €0,02 >> >> Robert. > > Thanks Robert, it's good to know I'm not the only one ! > Stephen > > > ___ > geda-user mailing list > geda-user@moria.seul.org > http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user > ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: FUNDING (was: Random thoughts on the future interface of PCB)
On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 9:45 AM, myken wrote: >> fund a full time developer. But it's nothing more than a pipe dream >> unless there are others out there who think the same. >> Does anyone else think the same ? > > I think the same, but I am also in the same position (start-up, tight > cashflow). I use gEDA professionally (as a freelancer) but only for a > few (1 or 2) small projects a year. If my situation changes (more money, > more projects) I have no objection to a donation to the gEDA project. > I'm trying to contribute to the project but it's a steep learning curve. > I also agree with Levente, as the cheap Dutchman that I am, I like to > see where my money will be spend. > > Just my €0,02 > > Robert. Thanks Robert, it's good to know I'm not the only one ! Stephen ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: FUNDING (was: Random thoughts on the future interface of PCB)
Hello all, On Thu, 2010-12-09 at 21:55 +1100, Stephen Ecob wrote: > > I'm aiming to finish University in a few months.. if people would > > like to fund work on the toporouter, then I would be pretty keen to > > work on it full time. > > > > Regards, > > Anthony > > Good, we've established that money could help to improve gEDA :) What > I'm *very* unsure of is whether we could raise enough to make a > difference. Does anyone have any idea of how many of us make > commercial use of gEDA ? > As a business user I face the fact that if I choose to use commercial > EDA software such as Altium then I'll pay $4K every year for a program > that will make me go prematurely bald as I pull my hair out in > frustration at bugs that I have no power to fix. I've chosen to use > free software instead. Yes, PCB has many shortcomings - but I'm free > to fix them. My business is just starting up, so cashflow is tight. > At this stage I'm more inclined to contribute to gEDA by coding myself > than by paying others to do it for me - but in the future I may have > less time and more money. At that stage paying others to improve gEDA > would make good business sense. I could easily justify $4K per year, > perhaps more - businesses who use Cadence or Zuken are probably paying > >$20K per year. One business contributing $4K per year is almost > insignificant - but 10 could achieve something worthwhile, 50 could > fund a full time developer. But it's nothing more than a pipe dream > unless there are others out there who think the same. > Does anyone else think the same ? > I think the same, but I am also in the same position (start-up, tight cashflow). I use gEDA professionally (as a freelancer) but only for a few (1 or 2) small projects a year. If my situation changes (more money, more projects) I have no objection to a donation to the gEDA project. I'm trying to contribute to the project but it's a steep learning curve. I also agree with Levente, as the cheap Dutchman that I am, I like to see where my money will be spend. Just my €0,02 Robert. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Funding for server
Popup ads and ads intermixed with gEDA content would be distracting but I don't believe that is what is being suggested. A sidebar of text ads does not seem bad. Occasionally useful and easy to ignore. (* jcl *) -- You can't create open hardware with closed EDA tools. twitter: http://twitter.com/jluciani blog:http://www.luciani.org ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Funding for server
>I find adverts generally annoying. That's fair enough. >There are better alternatives than advertisements to get the website > funded. Yes and no. I'm certainly willing to chip in, and so is my company. However, one-time contributions are things need to be negotiated or processed on a continuing basis. That takes person-effort that would (IMHO) better be spent elsewhere on the project. The reason that I brought up advertising is that it is an established model for *continuous* funding. And, the slippery slope is already there. As a whole, gEDA is already accepting advertising. Donors through linuxfund are listed; that's sponsorship, i.e. advertising. And there are ads on the github and sourceforge pages (only, the money goes elsewhere) and so on. > ... to use some other EDA software? > Sorry, but this road is slippery. That's an unfair criticism. Google ads allow keyword control specifically to avoid showing ads for the competition. Even if that were not the case, the gEDA project could instead rent small text ads directly to some gEDA-friendly advertisers, so that it could have full control over the content. -Windell ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: Funding for server
Peter Clifton wrote: It wouldn't take many people willing to contribute £2 per month (say), to fund a server, but getting infrastructure set up to make this kind of donation would be a pain. There is chipin.com "ChipIn does not charge any fees to organizers and contributors of events that send payments directly to the Organizer’s PayPal account. However, PayPal Premier or Business accounts may be subject to fees from PayPal." It is a site that accounts for pledges. It could help with infrastructure so that small payments can be made via the free gift mode of paypal... and if spread out enough, the recipient does not require a pro account with fees, which happens above $500 per month. If a chipin "event" fund campaign was started for every 6 months of fees, it would be just $180 and wouldn't go over the paypal gift limit. Getting this to happen again and again would be easy. they have tools for it -- "Promote Embed the ChipIn Widget on your favorite Web site or create your own ChipIn page at yourname.chipin.com" John ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
