Re: gEDA-user: Launchpad (was: rant: pcb print from command line)

[Bert Timmerman]

Hi all,


> -Original Message-
> From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org 
> [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Steven 
> Michalske
> Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 7:07 PM
> To: gEDA user mailing list
> Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Launchpad (was: rant: pcb print from 
> command line)
> 
> 
> On Mar 15, 2010, at 4:30 AM, Ales Hvezda wrote:
> 
> > 1) Leave gEDA (that includes gaf, pcb, and gerbv) split between two
> >   private servers (seul.org and gpleda.org both privately funded).
> 
> 
> It looks like trac has gotten pretty good with git, could we 
> could set up trac on gpleda.org?
> <http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/GitPlugin>
> 
> Steve 
> 

FWIW, I'm using Lighthouse for issue tracking.

Have a look at or use the free trial:

http://lighthouseapp.com/

For a real project with lots of tickets things get slow here too, see below
if you have some lunch time left or just no appetite ;-)

https://rails.lighthouseapp.com/tickets

https://rails.lighthouseapp.com/projects/8994-ruby-on-rails/milestones/50064
-235

https://rails.lighthouseapp.com/projects/8994/sending-patches

https://rails.lighthouseapp.com/projects/8994-ruby-on-rails/tickets/bins/636
8


Kind regards,

Bert Timmerman.



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Re: gEDA-user: Launchpad (was: rant: pcb print from command line)

[Steven Michalske]

On Mar 15, 2010, at 4:30 AM, Ales Hvezda wrote:


1) Leave gEDA (that includes gaf, pcb, and gerbv) split between two
  private servers (seul.org and gpleda.org both privately funded).



It looks like trac has gotten pretty good with git, could we could set  
up trac on gpleda.org?



Steve 



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Re: gEDA-user: Launchpad (was: rant: pcb print from command line)

[Peter TB Brett]

On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 08:05:31 -0400, Bob Paddock 
wrote:

>> 2) Move _all_ the projects project data elsewhere, like to SF or
>>   Launchpad.
> 
> I can't speak to Launchpad but during business hours, in the East Cost
> time zone,
> from hear near Pittsburgh SF is so slow it usually useless.  Also if
> your corporate IT department has
> you stuck on IE6 then it is useless, every download attempt of
> anything crashes and burns, sometimes
> taking the whole computer with it, not just IE6.

This is, of course, one of my issues with SF.net.  In addition to the
horrible interface, lack of features, etc.

Peter

-- 
Peter Brett 
Remote Sensing Research Group
Surrey Space Centre


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Re: gEDA-user: Launchpad (was: rant: pcb print from command line)

[Peter TB Brett]

On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 07:30:26 -0400, Ales Hvezda 
wrote:
> [snip]
>>So how do we explicitly get that consensus? Do we need a concrete
>>proposal to "vote" or otherwise express opinion on? Does anyone
>>strongly object if I try to write that?
> 
> I think the discussion should be more along the lines of:
> 
> 1) Leave gEDA (that includes gaf, pcb, and gerbv) split between two
>private servers (seul.org and gpleda.org both privately funded).
> 
>   -or-
> 
> 2) Move _all_ the projects project data elsewhere, like to SF or
>Launchpad.
> 
> On a related note, there have been grumblings about the way things
> currently are, as evident by a fairly recent irc conversation (names
> removed and key statements cherry-picked):
> 
> "ATM Ales is a single point of failure"

This was me, IIRC.  And I wasn't, "Grumbling about the way things currently
are," I was merely pointing out things that should be taken into
consideration when people were discussing possible alternatives to SF.net
for issue tracking.  I'm sorry if my comments came across in the wrong way.

As far as you being a single point of failure, Ales, I think that it's
reasonable to let people know that the point was made in the context of a
discussion about how, in concept, private server(s) could be funded and
administered.

At the moment, gEDA's critical data -- the source code -- is quite safe,
due to the fact that we've moved to using git, so *everybody* is helping to
back up the repository (thanks, guys).  However, the "bus number" for
resources like the website, wiki and mailing list is much smaller,
*because* they're on private servers administered by Ales -- but, on the
other hand, the fact they're on private servers gives us a massive amount
of flexibility which we wouldn't get elsewhere.

One idea that's been suggested is that the various gEDA developers form a
not-for-profit corporation (or other suitable organisation), which would
hold the hosting contract and own the gpleda.org domain name, etc., but the
trustees would then delegate the day-to-day running and administration to
someone competent (e.g. Ales).  Doing things that way would mean things
work pretty much the same as they do at the moment, but that if something
*did* happen to Ales -- and we hope nothing does! -- the trustees would
have the legal ability to appoint someone to take over with a minimum of
legal difficulties or disruption to project services.

[ A further, unrelated advantage of being a not-for-profit would be that it
would be easier to accept large donations, and that it might (depending on
the jurisdiction) be possible to claim back the tax paid by the donors. ]

> If you can't tell, I don't see the value of moving just the trackers
> from one SF-like service to another, just because we don't like the
> user interface.  However, moving all the data to SF or Launchpad, that
> has my vote.
> 
> And all the data includes:
> 
>   * webpage (though I own the domains for a few more years)
>   * released files (current and historical)
>   * git repositories
>   * mailing lists
>   * mailing list archives (also huge)
>   * bug trackers
>   * wiki

And as I am sure you are well aware, Ales, no project hosting service
exists that (a) would allow us to conveniently import all of the above or
(b) provides the quality of customisation and integration that we currently
have, thanks to your hard work!

As far as I am aware, *nobody* has expressed *any* dissatisfaction with the
seul.org or gpleda.org services, or how you run them.  My consideration
through the course of the recent discussions, both on- and off-list, has
been, "How can we avoid putting any additional burden on Ales?"

If you *don't want to* administer the gEDA server(s) any more, then we
should discuss alternatives.  However, I hadn't realised this was a
potential problem -- and if it is, it's much bigger and more serious than a
discussion about, "Do we want to move issue tracker, or not?"

Peter

P.S. The current problems with SF are considerably more extensive than, "We
don't like the interface."  Nevertheless, having a sane interface is a
fairly critical factor if you want people to actually use it.

-- 
Peter Brett 
Remote Sensing Research Group
Surrey Space Centre


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Re: gEDA-user: Launchpad (was: rant: pcb print from command line)

[Bob Paddock]

> 1) Leave gEDA (that includes gaf, pcb, and gerbv) split between two
>   private servers (seul.org and gpleda.org both privately funded).

Thank you for doing that for all of us.

> 2) Move _all_ the projects project data elsewhere, like to SF or
>   Launchpad.

I can't speak to Launchpad but during business hours, in the East Cost
time zone,
from hear near Pittsburgh SF is so slow it usually useless.  Also if
your corporate IT department has
you stuck on IE6 then it is useless, every download attempt of
anything crashes and burns, sometimes
taking the whole computer with it, not just IE6.


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Re: gEDA-user: Launchpad (was: rant: pcb print from command line)

[Ales Hvezda]

Minor correction below.

[snip]
>1) Leave gEDA (that includes gaf, pcb, and gerbv) split between two
>   private servers (seul.org and gpleda.org both privately funded).
>

Actually more than just two, there is:

* gpleda.org
* seul.org
* SF.net
* and chunks on Launchpad.

-Ales



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Re: gEDA-user: Launchpad (was: rant: pcb print from command line)

[Ales Hvezda]

[snip]
>So how do we explicitly get that consensus? Do we need a concrete
>proposal to "vote" or otherwise express opinion on? Does anyone
>strongly object if I try to write that?

I think the discussion should be more along the lines of:

1) Leave gEDA (that includes gaf, pcb, and gerbv) split between two
   private servers (seul.org and gpleda.org both privately funded).

-or-

2) Move _all_ the projects project data elsewhere, like to SF or
   Launchpad.

On a related note, there have been grumblings about the way things
currently are, as evident by a fairly recent irc conversation (names
removed and key statements cherry-picked):

"ATM Ales is a single point of failure"
"I'm concerned actually about Ales being a single point failure"
"problem with for-pay servers is users are motivated, they help
  pay for a few months, then no more"
"so any decisions that affect $$ need to account for probably
  Ales paying for it out of pocket"

I have absolutely no issues with removing me as a "single point of 
failure", however, if you people want to do it then put up the *cash*,
time, and get some buy-in from all people doing the development work.

For the record: getting gaf, pcb, and gerbv all in once place was a
ton of work and was no picnic.  I would be happy to provide a tarball
of everything (it'll be big) and I don't want duplication of data, so
if things are migrated away from gpleda.org, I would be happy to turn
those services off.

If you can't tell, I don't see the value of moving just the trackers
from one SF-like service to another, just because we don't like the
user interface.  However, moving all the data to SF or Launchpad, that
has my vote.

And all the data includes:

* webpage (though I own the domains for a few more years)
* released files (current and historical)
* git repositories
* mailing lists
* mailing list archives (also huge)
* bug trackers
* wiki

-Ales



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Re: gEDA-user: Launchpad (was: rant: pcb print from command line)

[Peter TB Brett]

On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 07:39:58 +, Gareth Edwards
 wrote:
> On 11 March 2010 19:33, Peter TB Brett  wrote:
>> On Thursday 11 March 2010 18:13:11 Duncan Drennan wrote:
>>> Is there some particular developer resistance to LaunchPad?
>>
>> Moving SF.net tracker items to Launchpad can be done automatically by
>> requesting an import.  That isn't a problem.
>>
>> However, we do need a consensus that Launchpad represents a genuine
>> improvement on SF.net for a majority of gEDA developers and users (I
know
>> that
>> there are some developers who are keen on it).
> 
> So how do we explicitly get that consensus? Do we need a concrete
> proposal to "vote" or otherwise express opinion on? Does anyone
> strongly object if I try to write that?

That sounds like an excellent idea.

Peter :-)

-- 
Peter Brett 
Remote Sensing Research Group
Surrey Space Centre


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Re: gEDA-user: Launchpad (was: rant: pcb print from command line)

[Gareth Edwards]

On 11 March 2010 19:33, Peter TB Brett  wrote:
> On Thursday 11 March 2010 18:13:11 Duncan Drennan wrote:
>> Is there some particular developer resistance to LaunchPad?
>
> Moving SF.net tracker items to Launchpad can be done automatically by
> requesting an import.  That isn't a problem.
>
> However, we do need a consensus that Launchpad represents a genuine
> improvement on SF.net for a majority of gEDA developers and users (I know that
> there are some developers who are keen on it).

So how do we explicitly get that consensus? Do we need a concrete
proposal to "vote" or otherwise express opinion on? Does anyone
strongly object if I try to write that?

> There are some things that
> would make moving to Launchpad a really compelling option:
>
>  - A hook for git.gpleda.org that could update a Launchpad ticket referenced
> in a commit message.

Doesn't look that difficult to do. There's an example
post-receive-email script in the git contrib area that could be used
as a template, and launchpad has an easy-to-use Python API. More
details in the proposal, I guess.

>
>  - Someone willing to research how best to arrange things in terms of
> Launchpad groups (we probably don't want everybody who's able to respond to
> bugs to have full administrative rights over the gEDA Launchpad project page,
> for instance).

That should be in the proposal. I have a few ideas on that.

>
>  - A volunteer to manage the migration process (e.g. writing patches for in-
> tree documentation and updating the wiki).

I think we should get the consensus first. If that doesn't happen, we
don't need a volunteer.

Cheers
Gareth


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Re: gEDA-user: Launchpad (was: rant: pcb print from command line)

[Peter TB Brett]

On Thursday 11 March 2010 18:13:11 Duncan Drennan wrote:
> > I'm very bad at following stuff in the sourceforge trackers, partly
> > since I _HATE_ the sourceforge site with a fiery passion.
> 
> Why not just move to LaunchPad? If it is set up and all the docs point
> in that direction then all new bugs/issues will be added there. The SF
> bugs just need to be worked through slowly until they are all closed
> (moving them is a waste of energy).
> 
> Is there some particular developer resistance to LaunchPad?

Moving SF.net tracker items to Launchpad can be done automatically by 
requesting an import.  That isn't a problem.

However, we do need a consensus that Launchpad represents a genuine 
improvement on SF.net for a majority of gEDA developers and users (I know that 
there are some developers who are keen on it).  There are some things that 
would make moving to Launchpad a really compelling option:

 - A hook for git.gpleda.org that could update a Launchpad ticket referenced 
in a commit message.

 - Someone willing to research how best to arrange things in terms of 
Launchpad groups (we probably don't want everybody who's able to respond to 
bugs to have full administrative rights over the gEDA Launchpad project page, 
for instance).

 - A volunteer to manage the migration process (e.g. writing patches for in-
tree documentation and updating the wiki).


   Peter

-- 
Peter Brett 
Remote Sensing Research Group
Surrey Space Centre


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