Re: gEDA-user: Marketing gEDA - was - Re: Professional PCB help using geda?
On Sep 7, 2007, at 8:06 PM, al davis wrote: On Thursday 06 September 2007, Larry Doolittle wrote: PCB can't do the automated parasitic extraction and signal integrity simulations that high end software suites can. Actually, a first cut, without crosstalk, is fairly easy to do. First, we need a translator, to translate from the PCB format to a simulation language. Then, we need electrical models of the traces, vias, etc. Then, we need to model the drivers and receivers, which are usually specified as IBIS models. I would LOVE to see gEDA incorporate an IBIS simulator! -a ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Marketing gEDA - was - Re: Professional PCB help using geda?
On Thursday 06 September 2007, Larry Doolittle wrote: PCB can't do the automated parasitic extraction and signal integrity simulations that high end software suites can. Actually, a first cut, without crosstalk, is fairly easy to do. First, we need a translator, to translate from the PCB format to a simulation language. Then, we need electrical models of the traces, vias, etc. Then, we need to model the drivers and receivers, which are usually specified as IBIS models. The easiest translation is to Verilog-A, the structural subset, which the gnucap snapshot now accepts. It should be a lossless transformation, with a back translation also available. The electrical models are mostly transmission lines. In high end tools, they usually use a field solver to extract electrical parameters from physical dimensions. If the layout is restricted to certain simple shapes, which it is, there are closed form equations that can do the extraction. This is very simple to do. It can be programmed as Verilog-A modules. I have IBIS-3 about 90% complete. Completing it has not been a priority. It could become a priority if the rest is done. Actually, it should be rewritten to take advantage of the new plugin system, and to eliminate experimental code. IBIS is a very difficult language to implement correctly. It's easy to implement incorrectly. A full simulation with crosstalk is much harder. The added requirements are a multi-port coupled transmission line, and a field solver to extract the parameters. There is Free software available to do this. It just needs to be incorporated into the system. As to the likelihood of it happening If someone else steps up to do part 1, I will follow with part 2 and 3. If someone is willing to pay for it, it rises to the top. The high end software suites usually have the extraction and simulation as separate products. Usually there is a multi-step process to transfer the data. Since they are separate, it is common to mix products from different (even competing) vendors. Most of the SI simulators are not Spice based. Spice performance is poor when most of the circuit is transmission lines. The SI simulators use a different algorithm that is much faster for this type of circuit, but does not handle general Spice circuits. The gnucap algorithm handles transmission lines similarly to transmission line simulators, so it should run fast like a transmission line simulator. It does run faster than Spice for this, but I have never properly benchmarked it against any transmission line simulator, so I don't know for sure. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Marketing gEDA - was - Re: Professional PCB help using geda?
On 9/5/07, DJ Delorie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Judging by how touchy everyone here gets as soon as you mention _any_ criticisms against the current user interfaces of the tools, Huh? Don't make me go back into the archives. ;D I'm talking about people who offer complaints about inconsistencies between the UI of gschem versus PCB (something that I've since gotten used to, after a VERY long period of acclimation). Invariably we hear the usual rhetoric of people not reading manuals anymore, and that powerful software is never easy to learn, etc. That's news to me. I thought that we get the usual explanation of different development teams, writing at different times, for different use cases, using different programming methodologies. Silly me, I guess I must have missed something. How far back in the archives are we looking? Peter ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Marketing gEDA - was - Re: Professional PCB help using geda?
There are a number of issues which need to be addresses around this, but lets look at this one: barrier to entry. On the cost front, the barrier to entry is very low - every one can afford gEDA. Then you have a couple of other issues, which, to me, are all lumped together in a new users mind, like environment, UI, and usage style. In my (limited) experience all EDA/CAD users are working in a Windows environment. This means that not only are they beginning with a new programme, but they are also beginning with a new environment. Often people go on courses just to start using a CAD package, the environment is not an issue. Now when someone moves over to gEDA after using a Windows based CAD programme, they don't differentiate between the environment and the CAD programme. They are not sitting there going, Oh, I don't know how scripting works in Linux, they are thinking, How to I create a new footprint? How do I generate a netlist? Where is the button to do this? The immediate effect of this is that the barrier to entry is significantly raised. Jumping over the technical hurdles means that significant time and effort will be expended *just to get started.* What has previously been intuitive is now much more complex. Then the question of real cost starts to arise in the users mind, Oh bugger, if I don't get this design done by the end of the month I'm in big trouble - let me go back to the CAD package I know, or find one that I can afford, it will be quicker. The sooner a new user grasps the concept of the design flow, the sooner they will embrace the product. If they are unable to achieve this within their own desired time frame they will move on to another product. Free is just not a powerful enough incentive, and won't ever be - the ability to complete the required tasks is. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Marketing gEDA - was - Re: Professional PCB help using geda?
andrewm wrote: DJ Delorie wrote: But first and foremost, everyone needs to realize that most of the developers are in it for their own personal benefit. DJ, so a slowly growing base is more preferable to a rapidly growing user base and I should not try encourage people to give gEDA a try on a wholesale level ? slowly growing base is what is. I contribute some -- but I'm getting back plenty as I go, and it looks really slow. That's what to expect, not a rollout. gEDA isn't really a product. I've been a gEDA user for 5+ years, and contributing for 3, and am only just now starting to be able to make sense of the source code any, and some of what I'm getting back is coding style training... So, if I'm one in a hundred, we want to promote a lot and get more pseudo developers/testers like me, and that will only be better for you getting some to try it and dump it. They will probably come back and check it again in a year if they dump it. even that exposure is good. John Griessen -- Ecosensory tinyOS devel on: ubuntu Linux; tinyOS v2.0.2; telosb ecosens1 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Marketing gEDA - was - Re: Professional PCB help using geda?
On 9/6/07, andrewm wrote: I am probably in a good position to push others in the direction of using gEDA but I am not sure how many people would take the push and not give up. Well, I've started some work on providing gEDA on a livecd. I've a development release on torrent : http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/FedoraElectronicLab Stable Release will be out soon on november. (check my blog for updates) If people are willing to market gEDA, please do spread the word. If one wants to create his/her own livecd with gEDA, follow: http://clunixchit.blogspot.com/2007/09/creating-his-fedora-electronic-lab.html In less than one hour, one will have his/her own livecd. If one has some phrases/paragraphs/text in order to market gEDA, please mail them to me. I'm working on a OOO presentations about opensource EDA on linux. Then anyone can even use those slides. Thus I can use fedora ambassadors to go and talk during various linux events worldwide. Most of the time, opensource EDA are left out during big linux events. regards, Chitlesh PS: suggestions and recommendations on the livecd are welcome (I got roughly 40mb left to fill) PS: this livecd entails the previous version of gEDA, but Fedora users have already the latest version among their updates. -- http://clunixchit.blogspot.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Marketing gEDA - was - Re: Professional PCB help using geda?
On Thursday 06 September 2007, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote: Most of the time, opensource EDA are left out during big linux events. and also left out of big EDA events. It's not deliberate that we are left out. We need to choose to go. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Marketing gEDA - was - Re: Professional PCB help using geda?
It's not deliberate that we are left out. We need to choose to go. And pay for booth space if we want a presence. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Marketing gEDA - was - Re: Professional PCB help using geda?
On 9/6/07, al davis wrote: It's not deliberate that we are left out. We need to choose to go. And pay for booth space if we want a presence. Not necessarily. I didn't say booth. There are other ways. I might provide some space at any fedora booth worldwide for people who want to market gEDA/gaf. (At the same time, educating fedora ambassadors to market gEDA properly if no one steps in.) Chitlesh -- http://clunixchit.blogspot.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Marketing gEDA - was - Re: Professional PCB help using geda?
I thought this snippet from of one of Paul Graham's essays (http://www.paulgraham.com/colleges.html) might be relevant to this discussion, = There used to be a saying in the corporate world: No one ever got fired for buying IBM. You no longer hear this about IBM specifically, but the idea is very much alive; there is a whole category of enterprise software companies that exist to take advantage of it. People buying technology for large organizations don't care if they pay a fortune for mediocre software. It's not their money. They just want to buy from a supplier who seems safe—a company with an established name, confident salesmen, impressive offices, and software that conforms to all the current fashions. Not necessarily a company that will deliver so much as one that, if they do let you down, will still seem to have been a prudent choice. So companies have evolved to fill that niche. = Real or not, I would reckon that there is a perceived risk in adopting gEDA, even though in a lot of ways the risk is reduced (future support, openness, etc.) The more gEDA success stories there are at a *commercial* level, the lower the perceived risk will be. In what other ways could the perceived risk be reduced? ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Marketing gEDA - was - Re: Professional PCB help using geda?
Duncan Drennan wrote: Real or not, I would reckon that there is a perceived risk in adopting gEDA, even though in a lot of ways the risk is reduced (future support, openness, etc.) The more gEDA success stories there are at a *commercial* level, the lower the perceived risk will be. In what other ways could the perceived risk be reduced? I think writing tutorials well is one good way. Another is stories about successful uses, put up on the gEDA website just like product offerers do. Maybe gEDA CAN be a product. Short of the developers attending lots of public meetings in suits, that is... :-) JG -- Ecosensory tinyOS devel on: ubuntu Linux; tinyOS v2.0.2; telosb ecosens1 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Marketing gEDA - was - Re: Professional PCB help using geda?
I think for gEDA to be adopted as a commercial product, someone must setup a company to charge people thousands of dollar for a yearly support contract so they can call anytime and talk to someone quick in order to get things resolved. But you guys have been telling me for a 10 layer board with high speed digital signals, gEDA (or rather PCB) is not ready yet. I want to believe the other way. What are missing if I don't need the fancy via's and buried stuffs? Andy On 9/6/07, John Griessen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Duncan Drennan wrote: Real or not, I would reckon that there is a perceived risk in adopting gEDA, even though in a lot of ways the risk is reduced (future support, openness, etc.) The more gEDA success stories there are at a *commercial* level, the lower the perceived risk will be. In what other ways could the perceived risk be reduced? I think writing tutorials well is one good way. Another is stories about successful uses, put up on the gEDA website just like product offerers do. Maybe gEDA CAN be a product. Short of the developers attending lots of public meetings in suits, that is... :-) JG -- Ecosensory tinyOS devel on: ubuntu Linux; tinyOS v2.0.2; telosb ecosens1 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Marketing gEDA - was - Re: Professional PCB help using geda?
Maybe gEDA CAN be a product. Short of the developers attending lots of public meetings in suits, that is... :-) I don't even own a suit. I don't even think I own any long sleeve shirts. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Marketing gEDA - was - Re: Professional PCB help using geda?
On 9/6/07, John Griessen wrote: I think writing tutorials well is one good way. Another is stories about successful uses, put up on the gEDA website just like product offerers do. I tend to agree with John here. Perhaps a Curriculum Vitae like for each application which highlights its big features might be very useful. Example: http://www.labcenter.co.uk/products/basicsim.cfm http://penzar.com/topspice/topspice.htm Al, interested ? Chitlesh -- http://clunixchit.blogspot.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Marketing gEDA - was - Re: Professional PCB help using geda?
Andy Fong wrote: But you guys have been telling me for a 10 layer board with high speed digital signals, gEDA (or rather PCB) is not ready yet. I want to believe the other way. It will only get better, you get open access to have your design updated later, and with all the GUI features being coded lately, and made compatible between PCB and gschem, more pwople will be able to use them. What are missing if I don't need the fancy via's and buried stuffs? Oh...just the back annotating you expect when designing one... but if you already have a design, it's just getting a netlist translation you checked somehow to trust it, and lots of layout time for those 700 pin parts... John G -- Ecosensory tinyOS devel on: ubuntu Linux; tinyOS v2.0.2; telosb ecosens1 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Marketing gEDA - was - Re: Professional PCB help using geda?
Andy - On Thu, Sep 06, 2007 at 05:00:46PM -0400, Andy Fong wrote: But you guys have been telling me for a 10 layer board with high speed digital signals, gEDA (or rather PCB) is not ready yet. Who said that? I want to believe the other way. What are missing if I don't need the fancy via's and buried stuffs? Nothing. PCB can't do the automated parasitic extraction and signal integrity simulations that high end software suites can. You have to engineer that yourself with common sense and a pocket calculator, just like they did in the olden days. At least development copies of PCB can now compute trace lengths (thanks, DJ!). - Larry ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Marketing gEDA - was - Re: Professional PCB help using geda?
On Sep 5, 2007, at 6:07 PM, Samuel A. Falvo II wrote: I'm talking about people who offer complaints about inconsistencies between the UI of gschem versus PCB (something that I've since gotten used to, after a VERY long period of acclimation). Invariably we hear the usual rhetoric of people not reading manuals anymore, and that powerful software is never easy to learn, etc. Developers of any sort of software must always keep in mind the Prime Directive of usability: If the user cannot find it, the feature does not exist. -a ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Marketing gEDA - was - Re: Professional PCB help using geda?
PCB is very capable of building high frequency boards. For example Matt Ettus (http://www.ettus.com) has developed a product which he describes as The Universal Software Radio Peripheral, or USRP, is device which allows you to create a software radio using any computer with a USB 2 port. Various plug-on daughterboards allow the USRP to be used on different radio frequency bands. Daughterboards are available from DC to 2.9 GHz at this time. The entire design of the USRP is open source. Specifically see the part DC to 2.9GHz that is high speed in my book. Matt developed this using the geda/pcb suite, from his faq Are PCB design files available with the boards that may aid in further prototyping? Yes. All USRP schematics (gEDA and PDF), all daughterboard schematics (gEDA and PDF), all daughterboard PCB design files, and daughterboard electrical and mechanical specs are available. You can find them on the download page. Steve Meier Andy Fong wrote: I think for gEDA to be adopted as a commercial product, someone must setup a company to charge people thousands of dollar for a yearly support contract so they can call anytime and talk to someone quick in order to get things resolved. But you guys have been telling me for a 10 layer board with high speed digital signals, gEDA (or rather PCB) is not ready yet. I want to believe the other way. What are missing if I don't need the fancy via's and buried stuffs? Andy On 9/6/07, *John Griessen* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Duncan Drennan wrote: Real or not, I would reckon that there is a perceived risk in adopting gEDA, even though in a lot of ways the risk is reduced (future support, openness, etc.) The more gEDA success stories there are at a *commercial* level, the lower the perceived risk will be. In what other ways could the perceived risk be reduced? I think writing tutorials well is one good way. Another is stories about successful uses, put up on the gEDA website just like product offerers do. Maybe gEDA CAN be a product. Short of the developers attending lots of public meetings in suits, that is... :-) JG -- Ecosensory tinyOS devel on: ubuntu Linux; tinyOS v2.0.2 ; telosb ecosens1 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org mailto:geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: Marketing gEDA - was - Re: Professional PCB help using geda?
Duncan Drennan wrote: SNIP I think John Luciani has pretty much demonstrated that this is possible with a bit of work. All that now needs to happen is for people to start adopting gEDA - but that is a whole different story, which requires strong marketing. SNIP John Griessen wrote: SNIP I think marketing is needed to deal with the image oriented way most people function in the world. Such as asking for professional help. Help with an image. Without some kind of image creation effort on our part, we are left with the image of good luck...hah!, and we will be lucky to get even small engineering companies to adopt gEDA tools. SNIP I am excluding myself from the following collective question as I am only new here. But do the gEDA people in general WANT marketing to new users at the moment ? Do you think the gEDA suite is polished enough to keep newcomers happy. Are the experienced users going to get fed up with answering questions from new users? I am probably in a good position to push others in the direction of using gEDA but I am not sure how many people would take the push and not give up. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Marketing gEDA - was - Re: Professional PCB help using geda?
On 9/5/07, andrewm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: keep newcomers happy. Are the experienced users going to get fed up with answering questions from new users? Judging by how touchy everyone here gets as soon as you mention _any_ criticisms against the current user interfaces of the tools, expect a LOT of users to get fed up with a LOT of newbies. I can speak from experience when I say that a lot of people will harp on the UI. -- Samuel A. Falvo II ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Marketing gEDA - was - Re: Professional PCB help using geda?
Judging by how touchy everyone here gets as soon as you mention _any_ criticisms against the current user interfaces of the tools, Huh? ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Marketing gEDA - was - Re: Professional PCB help using geda?
On 9/5/07, DJ Delorie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Judging by how touchy everyone here gets as soon as you mention _any_ criticisms against the current user interfaces of the tools, Huh? Don't make me go back into the archives. ;D I'm talking about people who offer complaints about inconsistencies between the UI of gschem versus PCB (something that I've since gotten used to, after a VERY long period of acclimation). Invariably we hear the usual rhetoric of people not reading manuals anymore, and that powerful software is never easy to learn, etc. I'm not saying these things aren't (at least partially) true. I'm just saying, be prepared for an onslaught of such complaints from people who are new to gEDA. -- Samuel A. Falvo II ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Marketing gEDA - was - Re: Professional PCB help using geda?
I realize that there are complaints. It was the how touchy everyone gets part I was huh?ing. I don't recall being touchy, and if you think a simple explanation of why things are the way they are is touchy then you need thicker skin. IMHO a slowly growing user base gives us (1) more insight into the average user, (2) more reason to worry about usability issues, and (3) hopefully a steadily growing developer base also. But first and foremost, everyone needs to realize that most of the developers are in it for their own personal benefit. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Marketing gEDA - was - Re: Professional PCB help using geda?
On Wednesday 05 September 2007, Samuel A. Falvo II wrote: Judging by how touchy everyone here gets as soon as you mention _any_ criticisms against the current user interfaces of the tools, expect a LOT of users to get fed up with a LOT of newbies. That's what you get in a public forum. The people getting touchy are not the developers. The developers really want constructive comments that help make the program better. We need and don't have people who know what they are doing who are willing to take the time to bring up beginners, document for them, and bring feedback from them in a way that is useful. We also need people to test the new, while it is still partly broken, and communicate that back in a constructive way. This is a way to participate in development in a very useful way. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Marketing gEDA - was - Re: Professional PCB help using geda?
On Wed, 5 Sep 2007, DJ Delorie wrote: DJ, so a slowly growing base is more preferable to a rapidly growing user base and I should not try encourage people to give gEDA a try on a wholesale level ? It depends. For example, getting a school, classroom, or other organization to try it as a group is different than getting the same number of people to try it individually. As a group, they can work together to solve many of their individual problems and share solutions, feeding only the worst problems to us. I did exactly this a year ago and will do it again this semester. My input is mechanical engineer students who choose to take an exotic tour in electronics (very basic, blinking leds, a PIC hooked on serial line of the PC doing something simple, etc). I use gschem, xgsch2pcb and pcb on Debian/GNU Linux for these. My experience is that for average students the UI itself is less problematic than a non-windows system. I'm lucky because these guys haven't used other EDA tools before so it's not like they expect some sort of UI standards, however they usually have experience with 2 or more mechanical engineering CAD software. My experience about the developers and gEDA community in general is positive. Whenever I asked for a feature or submitted a patch, sooner or later it was done in the repository. I have only one pending feature request which keeps me back from finishing my scripting plugin for PCB :) Igor2 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
