Re: gEDA-user: RFC using SVG with semantic markup as an EDA format
My 2 cents. I use to convert pdf files to svg through Makefiles. I don't remember the app I use for it offhand but can look if anyone is interested (it's all free software, other than inkscape). I also usually produce schematics in pdf with logos, barcodes, and vital data (date, project, etc). I do this with Makefiles and plain tex. About the OT, I'm not an expert in svg, actually, I don't like any of the descendants of sgml, languages that I find completely stupid, and unreadable. I don't either know if svg would support 3d, which I find would be much of a propper boost for gEDA than anything else right now. Being able to render photo-realistic images of boards (thing that could even happen automatically throughout the process, with a simple rule on the makefile), would be just great. Also, I'm of the idea that relying on cairo more than neccesary is letting things go worse. While it's a very useful and nice piece of software, it makes eveything much slower. Hence, rather than going svg (for which I find no point at all--I you need svg, just convert you pdf to it, or open you pdf with inkscape), I'd concentrate efforts in modifications of current format, such that it allows 2d/3d description of footprints and containts or references some raster image (uv map), and in opengl for gschem and pcb. Regards, On 16/04/2011, Markus Hitter m...@jump-ing.de wrote: Am 11.04.2011 um 23:34 schrieb Peter Clifton: Inkscape. I don't think there is anything available which is remotely comparable which doesn't cost serious money. Scribus/ScribusNG. Better suited for desktop publishing and not so CorelDraw-like. But that's off topic :-) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dipl. Ing. (FH) Markus Hitter http://www.jump-ing.de/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: RFC using SVG with semantic markup as an EDA format
Am 11.04.2011 um 23:34 schrieb Peter Clifton: Inkscape. I don't think there is anything available which is remotely comparable which doesn't cost serious money. Scribus/ScribusNG. Better suited for desktop publishing and not so CorelDraw-like. But that's off topic :-) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dipl. Ing. (FH) Markus Hitter http://www.jump-ing.de/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: RFC using SVG with semantic markup as an EDA format
If anybody's interested there's a lot of info on previous attempts to produce standards based EDA formats here; http://xml.coverpages.org/xmlAndEDA.html this is probably old hat to many of you! My assessment is; 1. They tried to cover way too much in one go with edaXML, PCB's, MCM, fat symbols, basically trying to encapsulate all possible EDA data in one description and thus produced a complex format that was difficult to implement and poorly adopted. 2. Saying something is standards based as it's XML is a bit of a joke, as far as I know no open tools to read the format were ever produced. 3. I think it was a good idea that was before it's time, most EE's still were not that internet savvy back in 2000. Anyway it's looking dead easy to have gschem symbols - SVG . Should have something on Github shortly. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: RFC using SVG with semantic markup as an EDA format
On Tue, 2011-04-12 at 03:52 +0200, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: Steven Michalske wrote: Microsoft and Apple do not like Safari has supported SVG for a while now? Why doesn't apple like SVG? Sorry, I got confused by Apples dislike of flash. OT: Now there is a POV I can get behind ;) Flash makes my life a little less awesome every time it sucks the life out of one of my CPU cores, or crashes my web browser. In a vague effort to get this back on topic.. If you are every profiling gEDA or PCB for me, please ensure flash is not running (no background CPU sucking processes) before reporting results ;) I'm not sure how I like Apple's action on the issue. I doubt it was made for totally A-political reasons, and it sucks in terms of user freedom to choose what bloat-ware they wish to install. Still - I think in a way they will have given HTML5 a big boost by their actions. -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: RFC using SVG with semantic markup as an EDA format
$ firefox symbol.svg renders a familiar looking symbol on my debian linux machine. So, are you thinking of making a translation in and out of gschem for all the attributes a full symbol needs? Embedding the attribs in the SVG? Then being able to morph the visual shape of a symbol with well developed tools as inkscape and import into scribus for making a book out of it? That might go over well. Using SVG as the internal format for gschem symbols and pcb footprints might not go over so well as the current formats are more compact. John Yes it's copy/paste from OrCad, dont hate me ;-) So my short term goal is to come up with SVG semantics for symbols footprints that fill the following criteria; 1. Render sensibly in an un-modified browser . 2. Allow import/export to a few common EDA packages, I'm sure you know the roll call. Obviously switching the internal file format is a huge effort and I wouldn't presume to suggest that at this point. Andrew ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: RFC using SVG with semantic markup as an EDA format
On 04/10/2011 04:55 PM, Andrew Seddon wrote: I am exploring the idea of using the Scalable Vector Graphics standard as an EDA format. https://github.com/seddona/svgparts Would be interested in your thoughts, there's a little more explanation on my blog. You might want to check out Fritzing (fritzing.org). It targets non-EEs, but they have all of their graphics in SVG. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: RFC using SVG with semantic markup as an EDA format
The idea of basing future formats on SVG has been thought of, floated, and discussed before now. I don't recall whether any conclusions were reached. I personally have mixed feelings, but am leaning towards the the thought that it is a good idea - but with a healthy dose of uneasiness about it as well. When I designed path support in gschem, I deliberately made the path syntax compatible / identical to SVG paths in case we went down this route at a later stage, and that so more complex paths could be drawn in a graphics program, then copy+pasted from an SVG file. libgeda only saves (and guarantees to load) simple line and bezier curve based paths, but an implementation detail (due to code re-use from librsvg), it can actually read any legal SVG path in its path primitive. When saving, it always converts that out to simple lines and beziers. I'm not as convinced of the idea for PCB layouts / footprints. I'm just not certain the drawing model is constrained enough. to match real world geometry demands. The main niggle is that SVG is more expressive than a generic PCB layer. Things like colours and gradient fills are just not meaningful in copper. That means we need to act intelligently if something adds those. Supporting complex geometry primitives which SVG would bring also means internal processing in PCB might get more difficult. -- Peter Clifton Yes I see some work was done into an XML file format before, will try and dig up the SVG discussion. I cant see any real technical benefit to gEDA in using SVG to be honest. The benefit is the warm fuzzy feeling your average hardware developer/pcb designer would get when they double click on the file and a nice representation opens up in the browser. My premise is that this alone would increase adoption of the format and any tools which use it. There are also knock on benefits in terms of communicating design intent to production houses etc. The hard part is going to be constraining and augmenting SVG so as to produce a dialect which can; 1. Be translated to common EDA formats with relatively simple algorithms 2. Display nicely on standard SVG viewers 3. Be easily to manipulate by tools working natively in the format (this is probably implicit in 1 though) Keen to hear why this idea sucks! --- Andrew ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: RFC using SVG with semantic markup as an EDA format
$ firefox symbol.svg renders a familiar looking symbol on my debian linux machine. So, are you thinking of making a translation in and out of gschem for all the attributes a full symbol needs? Embedding the attribs in the SVG? Then being able to morph the visual shape of a symbol with well developed tools as inkscape and import into scribus for making a book out of it? That might go over well. Using SVG as the internal format for gschem symbols and pcb footprints might not go over so well as the current formats are more compact. John Yes it's copy/paste from OrCad, dont hate me ;-) So my short term goal is to come up with SVG semantics for symbols footprints that fill the following criteria; 1. Render sensibly in an un-modified browser . 2. Allow import/export to a few common EDA packages, I'm sure you know the roll call. Obviously switching the internal file format is a huge effort and I wouldn't presume to suggest that at this point. Andrew ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: RFC using SVG with semantic markup as an EDA format
On Mon, 2011-04-11 at 13:05 +0100, Andrew Seddon wrote: 1. Be translated to common EDA formats with relatively simple algorithms 2. Display nicely on standard SVG viewers 3. Be easily to manipulate by tools working natively in the format (this is probably implicit in 1 though) Keen to hear why this idea sucks! It doesn't. Some challenges to be met though. If you make schematics == SVG files, you need to ensure that opening and saving from an SVG editor (e.g. Inkscape) won't break the data within. Gschem currently uses special primitives to mark connectivity - nets, pins, buses etc.. I'm not quite clear how that can be mapped to SVG in a way which doesn't loose that information when edited outside of the EDA tool. Perhaps 2x way is too much to hope for though.. and we can just rely on the fact our files will render as an SVG. XCircuit does this with postscript files. Btw - I have a branch lurking about which emits SVG onto the clipboard when copy+pasting within gschem. That lets you paste from gschem straight into Inkscape. The net and pin end-cues aren't quite right with it though. -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: RFC using SVG with semantic markup as an EDA format
Yeah I think allowing a file to be saved by a general purpose tool will be really tricky, as we'd have to account for everything that might happen. Inkscape does weird stuff to SVG's even if you just open and save straight away. I dont really think that mode of operation is super useful anyway. I cant imagine wanting to edit a pcb/schematic in Inkscape any time soon, though it would be nice for say drawing a logo or something. I'd say that kind of support would be a longer term goal. I suppose my sole purpose for SVG right now is the warm fuzzy feeling of viewing in a browser :-) On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Peter Clifton pc...@cam.ac.uk wrote: On Mon, 2011-04-11 at 13:05 +0100, Andrew Seddon wrote: 1. Be translated to common EDA formats with relatively simple algorithms 2. Display nicely on standard SVG viewers 3. Be easily to manipulate by tools working natively in the format (this is probably implicit in 1 though) Keen to hear why this idea sucks! It doesn't. Some challenges to be met though. If you make schematics == SVG files, you need to ensure that opening and saving from an SVG editor (e.g. Inkscape) won't break the data within. Gschem currently uses special primitives to mark connectivity - nets, pins, buses etc.. I'm not quite clear how that can be mapped to SVG in a way which doesn't loose that information when edited outside of the EDA tool. Perhaps 2x way is too much to hope for though.. and we can just rely on the fact our files will render as an SVG. XCircuit does this with postscript files. Btw - I have a branch lurking about which emits SVG onto the clipboard when copy+pasting within gschem. That lets you paste from gschem straight into Inkscape. The net and pin end-cues aren't quite right with it though. -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: RFC using SVG with semantic markup as an EDA format
On Sun, 2011-04-10 at 21:55 +0100, Andrew Seddon wrote: I am exploring the idea of using the Scalable Vector Graphics standard as an EDA format. https://github.com/seddona/svgparts Would be interested in your thoughts, there's a little more explanation on my blog. What would be the benefit of SVG? Arbitrary symbol sizes? We can scale our current symbols already, but a schematic with very many different symbol sizes will look strange. Indeed limited scaling may be fine, ie. scaling our 900 units long resistor to 800 or 1000 units length -- but pins should always end on a 100 grid multiple. (no that is not really needed to connect nets, but for ordered look.) Currently SVG export should be a trivial task due to cairo -- similar to PS and PDF export. Filled SVG paths are fine, we have it, still without editing support. Do we need other fancy graphics? I do not think so. Schematics design is not really art work. If we really want full SVG, we may consider a Schematic Mode for Inkscape. But Inkscape is really a large, complex tool. If it is possible to embedd all the elelectronics stuff like attributes, net connection, slots, ... in SVG file, then it may be OK. But the effort -- it is similar to a complete rewrite of gschem. And a rewrite -- again C and guile and GTK? PS: We may consider using inkscapes svg icon set for geda/pcb. Inkspape is GPL, so it should be OK. You may look at files /usr/share/inkscape/icons/icons.svg /usr/share/inkscape/icons/tango_icons.svg Very nice icon set, I intend using it for my plain ruby gschem clone. Best regards, Stefan Salewski ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: RFC using SVG with semantic markup as an EDA format
On Sun, 2011-04-10 at 21:55 +0100, Andrew Seddon wrote: I am exploring the idea of using the Scalable Vector Graphics standard as an EDA format. https://github.com/seddona/svgparts Would be interested in your thoughts, there's a little more explanation on my blog. What would be the benefit of SVG? Arbitrary symbol sizes? We can scale our current symbols already, but a schematic with very many different symbol sizes will look strange. Indeed limited scaling may be fine, ie. scaling our 900 units long resistor to 800 or 1000 units length -- but pins should always end on a 100 grid multiple. (no that is not really needed to connect nets, but for ordered look.) Currently SVG export should be a trivial task due to cairo -- similar to PS and PDF export. Filled SVG paths are fine, we have it, still without editing support. Do we need other fancy graphics? I do not think so. Schematics design is not really art work. If we really want full SVG, we may consider a Schematic Mode for Inkscape. But Inkscape is really a large, complex tool. If it is possible to embedd all the elelectronics stuff like attributes, net connection, slots, ... in SVG file, then it may be OK. But the effort -- it is similar to a complete rewrite of gschem. And a rewrite -- again C and guile and GTK? PS: We may consider using inkscapes svg icon set for geda/pcb. Inkspape is GPL, so it should be OK. You may look at files /usr/share/inkscape/icons/icons.svg /usr/share/inkscape/icons/tango_icons.svg Very nice icon set, I intend using it for my plain ruby gschem clone. Best regards, Stefan Salewski ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user So I think it might help to limit the scope of my intent initially to library parts. I'd like to create a truly vendor neutral, widely supported EDA library format, and the only way I see to do that is to piggy back on a format much larger than anything the EDA industry could ever create in isolation. I'm actually thinking more of a direct convert from the gEDA library files so as to maintain design intent, rather than ripping from the graphics layer. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: RFC using SVG with semantic markup as an EDA format
Peter Clifton pc...@cam.ac.uk writes: On Mon, 2011-04-11 at 13:05 +0100, Andrew Seddon wrote: 1. Be translated to common EDA formats with relatively simple algorithms 2. Display nicely on standard SVG viewers 3. Be easily to manipulate by tools working natively in the format (this is probably implicit in 1 though) Keen to hear why this idea sucks! It doesn't. Some challenges to be met though. If you make schematics == SVG files, you need to ensure that opening and saving from an SVG editor (e.g. Inkscape) won't break the data within. Gschem currently uses special primitives to mark connectivity - nets, pins, buses etc.. I'm not quite clear how that can be mapped to SVG in a way which doesn't loose that information when edited outside of the EDA tool. Does SVG/Inkscape support layers? It sure does. I recently looked at an svg export from gerbv, and I found it pretty useless. I found one object inside, and when I ungrouped that object I found all the little pieces, but not grouped into layers. And no transparency. A schematic could require nets and pins to be in special layers. When Inkscape messes with the file, as long as the layers are preseved the connectivity should survive. All non-schematic layers are graphics. So it should be easy to map the semantics of gschem to an svg subset, allow gschem to export to such a format. On open/import, the schematic is extracted from those layers/groups that have a meaning, all the rest is preserved as graphics, maybe with limited edit sorrut, like move and delete. If this shall become the primary format, I'd first insist on really good native scripting support, since external schematics scripting on svg is no fun. -- Stephan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: RFC using SVG with semantic markup as an EDA format
This is what I see as a benefit. If you go to a vendor's website you will find one or two EDA footprint and symbol files. But nothing that was a bell ringer for commonality. It would be nice to have a universal starting point. There is EDIF but I see EDIF as not being so useful, i think they tried to do too many things, and failed to get them all correct. As one file format to rule them all. I rather see svg symbol format, svg footprint format, and svg format. Steve On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 9:43 PM, Andrew Seddon and...@seddon.me wrote: On Sun, 2011-04-10 at 21:55 +0100, Andrew Seddon wrote: I am exploring the idea of using the Scalable Vector Graphics standard as an EDA format. https://github.com/seddona/svgparts Would be interested in your thoughts, there's a little more explanation on my blog. What would be the benefit of SVG? Arbitrary symbol sizes? We can scale our current symbols already, but a schematic with very many different symbol sizes will look strange. Indeed limited scaling may be fine, ie. scaling our 900 units long resistor to 800 or 1000 units length -- but pins should always end on a 100 grid multiple. (no that is not really needed to connect nets, but for ordered look.) Currently SVG export should be a trivial task due to cairo -- similar to PS and PDF export. Filled SVG paths are fine, we have it, still without editing support. Do we need other fancy graphics? I do not think so. Schematics design is not really art work. If we really want full SVG, we may consider a Schematic Mode for Inkscape. But Inkscape is really a large, complex tool. If it is possible to embedd all the elelectronics stuff like attributes, net connection, slots, ... in SVG file, then it may be OK. But the effort -- it is similar to a complete rewrite of gschem. And a rewrite -- again C and guile and GTK? PS: We may consider using inkscapes svg icon set for geda/pcb. Inkspape is GPL, so it should be OK. You may look at files /usr/share/inkscape/icons/icons.svg /usr/share/inkscape/icons/tango_icons.svg Very nice icon set, I intend using it for my plain ruby gschem clone. Best regards, Stefan Salewski ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user So I think it might help to limit the scope of my intent initially to library parts. I'd like to create a truly vendor neutral, widely supported EDA library format, and the only way I see to do that is to piggy back on a format much larger than anything the EDA industry could ever create in isolation. I'm actually thinking more of a direct convert from the gEDA library files so as to maintain design intent, rather than ripping from the graphics layer. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: RFC using SVG with semantic markup as an EDA format
On Mon, 2011-04-11 at 23:18 +0800, Steven Michalske wrote: This is what I see as a benefit. If you go to a vendor's website you will find one or two EDA footprint and symbol files. But nothing that was a bell ringer for commonality. It would be nice to have a universal starting point. There is EDIF but I see EDIF as not being so useful, i think they tried to do too many things, and failed to get them all correct. As one file format to rule them all. I rather see svg symbol format, svg footprint format, and svg format. Steve For svg footprints we have two problems: We always have to convert it to old gerber format before sending to manufacturer. (Or to another format which manufacturers support, I think no one currently supports svg.) And if we scale footprints, we should not to forget to scale our (real word) components with the same factor. Of course, would be fine: If our case is too small for our device, just scale the whole thing down. :-) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: RFC using SVG with semantic markup as an EDA format
On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 12:28 AM, Stefan Salewski m...@ssalewski.de wrote: On Mon, 2011-04-11 at 23:18 +0800, Steven Michalske wrote: This is what I see as a benefit. If you go to a vendor's website you will find one or two EDA footprint and symbol files. But nothing that was a bell ringer for commonality. It would be nice to have a universal starting point. There is EDIF but I see EDIF as not being so useful, i think they tried to do too many things, and failed to get them all correct. As one file format to rule them all. I rather see svg symbol format, svg footprint format, and svg format. Steve For svg footprints we have two problems: We always have to convert it to old gerber format before sending to manufacturer. (Or to another format which manufacturers support, I think no one currently supports svg.) And if we scale footprints, we should not to forget to scale our (real word) components with the same factor. Of course, would be fine: If our case is too small for our device, just scale the whole thing down. :-) Same exists for out current footprints, they need to be converted to gerbers via pcb. basically svg - converter - pcb fp format - pcb - gerber --or-- pcb fp - svg --or-- vendor x - converter - svg - converter - pcb fp It would be nice to scale the solder masks and the solder paste layers. for process dependencies. Steve ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: RFC using SVG with semantic markup as an EDA format
I think EDIF pretty much died, no party had a vested interest in making it work and the standard is a bloated mess. SVG represents a real opportunity to piggy back on the much more dominant force of the interwebs. On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 4:18 PM, Steven Michalske smichal...@gmail.com wrote: This is what I see as a benefit. If you go to a vendor's website you will find one or two EDA footprint and symbol files. But nothing that was a bell ringer for commonality. It would be nice to have a universal starting point. There is EDIF but I see EDIF as not being so useful, i think they tried to do too many things, and failed to get them all correct. As one file format to rule them all. I rather see svg symbol format, svg footprint format, and svg format. Steve On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 9:43 PM, Andrew Seddon and...@seddon.me wrote: On Sun, 2011-04-10 at 21:55 +0100, Andrew Seddon wrote: I am exploring the idea of using the Scalable Vector Graphics standard as an EDA format. https://github.com/seddona/svgparts Would be interested in your thoughts, there's a little more explanation on my blog. What would be the benefit of SVG? Arbitrary symbol sizes? We can scale our current symbols already, but a schematic with very many different symbol sizes will look strange. Indeed limited scaling may be fine, ie. scaling our 900 units long resistor to 800 or 1000 units length -- but pins should always end on a 100 grid multiple. (no that is not really needed to connect nets, but for ordered look.) Currently SVG export should be a trivial task due to cairo -- similar to PS and PDF export. Filled SVG paths are fine, we have it, still without editing support. Do we need other fancy graphics? I do not think so. Schematics design is not really art work. If we really want full SVG, we may consider a Schematic Mode for Inkscape. But Inkscape is really a large, complex tool. If it is possible to embedd all the elelectronics stuff like attributes, net connection, slots, ... in SVG file, then it may be OK. But the effort -- it is similar to a complete rewrite of gschem. And a rewrite -- again C and guile and GTK? PS: We may consider using inkscapes svg icon set for geda/pcb. Inkspape is GPL, so it should be OK. You may look at files /usr/share/inkscape/icons/icons.svg /usr/share/inkscape/icons/tango_icons.svg Very nice icon set, I intend using it for my plain ruby gschem clone. Best regards, Stefan Salewski ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user So I think it might help to limit the scope of my intent initially to library parts. I'd like to create a truly vendor neutral, widely supported EDA library format, and the only way I see to do that is to piggy back on a format much larger than anything the EDA industry could ever create in isolation. I'm actually thinking more of a direct convert from the gEDA library files so as to maintain design intent, rather than ripping from the graphics layer. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: RFC using SVG with semantic markup as an EDA format
On Mon, 2011-04-11 at 18:14 +0100, Andrew Seddon wrote: I think EDIF pretty much died, no party had a vested interest in making it work and the standard is a bloated mess. SVG represents a real opportunity to piggy back on the much more dominant force of the interwebs. TBH, I've not seen SVG anywhere on the main-stream internet. Linux desktops use SVG a lot for desktop graphics, but it really isn't as prevalent as it should be. What excuse is there for OpenOffice / LibreOffice being so appallingly bad at working with SVG files? Why can't we paste them right into TeX, LaTeX or whatever? They are all open source, yet this open format is not supported. Whilst SVG is an obvious open vector standard to support - not a lot of things actually work well with it sadly. I was pleasantly surprised to see FreeCAD saves out SVG for its CAD exports - but I would have expected (and half preferred) PDF. I'm getting used to the amazing ease with which tools like Inkscape can open PS and PDF files, then edit them as vector graphics. -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: RFC using SVG with semantic markup as an EDA format
On Mon, 2011-04-11 at 18:14 +0100, Andrew Seddon wrote: I think EDIF pretty much died, no party had a vested interest in making it work and the standard is a bloated mess. SVG represents a real opportunity to piggy back on the much more dominant force of the interwebs. TBH, I've not seen SVG anywhere on the main-stream internet. Linux desktops use SVG a lot for desktop graphics, but it really isn't as prevalent as it should be. What excuse is there for OpenOffice / LibreOffice being so appallingly bad at working with SVG files? Why can't we paste them right into TeX, LaTeX or whatever? They are all open source, yet this open format is not supported. Whilst SVG is an obvious open vector standard to support - not a lot of things actually work well with it sadly. I was pleasantly surprised to see FreeCAD saves out SVG for its CAD exports - but I would have expected (and half preferred) PDF. I'm getting used to the amazing ease with which tools like Inkscape can open PS and PDF files, then edit them as vector graphics. -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: RFC using SVG with semantic markup as an EDA format
Peter Clifton wrote: TBH, I've not seen SVG anywhere on the main-stream internet. Wikipedia prefers SVG for anything that is not a photograph. The servers render SVG graphics to PNG as needed before handing it out to the browser. Linux desktops use SVG a lot for desktop graphics, but it really isn't as prevalent as it should be. Microsoft and Apple do not like What excuse is there for OpenOffice / LibreOffice being so appallingly bad at working with SVG files? Actually, SVG import is among the first features of libreoffice beyond openoffice: http://www.libreoffice.org/download/new-features-and-fixes/ Why can't we paste them right into TeX, LaTeX or whatever? They are all open source, yet this open format is not supported. IMHO, latex development reached a state of virtual feature freeze before SVG became a viable alternative. Whilst SVG is an obvious open vector standard to support - not a lot of things actually work well with it sadly. The number one open source vector drawing application, inkscape uses SVG as its native file format. This alone would be reason enough to seriously consider SVG as an import/export file format. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak tel: +49-511-762-2895 Universität Hannover, Inst. für Quantenoptik fax: +49-511-762-2211 Welfengarten 1, 30167 Hannover http://www.iqo.uni-hannover.de GPG key:http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=Knaak+kmkop=get ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: RFC using SVG with semantic markup as an EDA format
TBH, I've not seen SVG anywhere on the main-stream internet. Linux desktops use SVG a lot for desktop graphics, but it really isn't as prevalent as it should be. The latest version of every major Desktop/Mobile browser's support is good enough for what we want to do. Support across the web (as in random people arriving at your site) is approaching 50%. Lots of AJAX web apps now use SVG for charting etc. It's a done deal, SVG is the standard for 2D vector graphics for the next x years. @Kai, Chrome actually renders SVG inside an image tag to my delight! Anyway I'm going to stop talking about this and go and write some code now! haha @Peter, not sure if you got my email but definitely up for meeting, let me know when's good for you. Andrew ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: RFC using SVG with semantic markup as an EDA format
On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 08:55:12PM +0200, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: Peter Clifton wrote: TBH, I've not seen SVG anywhere on the main-stream internet. Wikipedia prefers SVG for anything that is not a photograph. The servers render SVG graphics to PNG as needed before handing it out to the browser. Linux desktops use SVG a lot for desktop graphics, but it really isn't as prevalent as it should be. Microsoft and Apple do not like What excuse is there for OpenOffice / LibreOffice being so appallingly bad at working with SVG files? Actually, SVG import is among the first features of libreoffice beyond openoffice: http://www.libreoffice.org/download/new-features-and-fixes/ Why can't we paste them right into TeX, LaTeX or whatever? They are all open source, yet this open format is not supported. IMHO, latex development reached a state of virtual feature freeze before SVG became a viable alternative. Surely you can convert SVG to EPS, which TeX/LaTeX happily embed. Looks like UniConvertor/sK1 is the usual Free tool to script that conversion. Would it make any sense to leverage that software base, and add Gerber or native gEDA/PCB to its list of import and export filters? http://sk1project.org/modules.php?name=Productsproduct=uniconvertor - Larry ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: RFC using SVG with semantic markup as an EDA format
On Mon, 2011-04-11 at 07:50 -0400, Ethan Swint wrote: On 04/10/2011 04:55 PM, Andrew Seddon wrote: I am exploring the idea of using the Scalable Vector Graphics standard as an EDA format. https://github.com/seddona/svgparts Would be interested in your thoughts, there's a little more explanation on my blog. You might want to check out Fritzing (fritzing.org). It targets non-EEs, but they have all of their graphics in SVG. The have a paper http://www.svgopen.org/2009/papers/33-SVG_in_Fritzing_a_Case_Study/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: RFC using SVG with semantic markup as an EDA format
On Mon, 2011-04-11 at 20:55 +0200, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: Peter Clifton wrote: What excuse is there for OpenOffice / LibreOffice being so appallingly bad at working with SVG files? Actually, SVG import is among the first features of libreoffice beyond openoffice: http://www.libreoffice.org/download/new-features-and-fixes/ The last time I tried it, support wasn't very good. Things might have changed though, so I guess it is worth me trying again. The number one open source vector drawing application, inkscape uses SVG as its native file format. This alone would be reason enough to seriously consider SVG as an import/export file format. Heck, I know Windows users who love Inkscape. I don't think there is anything available which is remotely comparable which doesn't cost serious money. Inkscape is awesomeness. -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: RFC using SVG with semantic markup as an EDA format
On Mon, 2011-04-11 at 20:12 +0100, Andrew Seddon wrote: TBH, I've not seen SVG anywhere on the main-stream internet. Linux desktops use SVG a lot for desktop graphics, but it really isn't as prevalent as it should be. The latest version of every major Desktop/Mobile browser's support is good enough for what we want to do. Support across the web (as in random people arriving at your site) is approaching 50%. Lots of AJAX web apps now use SVG for charting etc. It's a done deal, SVG is the standard for 2D vector graphics for the next x years. @Kai, Chrome actually renders SVG inside an image tag to my delight! Anyway I'm going to stop talking about this and go and write some code now! haha @Peter, not sure if you got my email but definitely up for meeting, let me know when's good for you. I got it, but haven't had a chance to think about when might suit. If there is any time you're going to be around in Cambridge anyway, please let me know. -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: RFC using SVG with semantic markup as an EDA format
On Mon, 2011-04-11 at 12:37 -0700, Larry Doolittle wrote: Surely you can convert SVG to EPS, which TeX/LaTeX happily embed. Looks like UniConvertor/sK1 is the usual Free tool to script that conversion. Would it make any sense to leverage that software base, and add Gerber or native gEDA/PCB to its list of import and export filters? http://sk1project.org/modules.php?name=Productsproduct=uniconvertor I use pdfLaTeX with LyX almost exclusively now, so my workflow is Inkscape - PDF - LyX - pdfLaTeX. I've come across sK1 and UniConverter before. I tried to use it to generate EMF files for pasting into OpenOffice (from gschem's clipboard). I can't recall what it failed to convert properly, but it was something ;). Each converter I tried to get into OpenOffice messed something up. Usually it was related to text handling. -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: RFC using SVG with semantic markup as an EDA format
On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:43:08PM +0100, Peter Clifton wrote: On Mon, 2011-04-11 at 12:37 -0700, Larry Doolittle wrote: Surely you can convert SVG to EPS, which TeX/LaTeX happily embed. http://sk1project.org/modules.php?name=Productsproduct=uniconvertor I use pdfLaTeX with LyX almost exclusively now, so my workflow is Inkscape - PDF - LyX - pdfLaTeX. I didn't mention PDF, but that's relevant for the pdf(la)tex variants that your flow uses, and sK1/UniConvertor has a PDF output filter. Inkscape is nice, but doesn't feel right for embedding in a Makefile. I haven't tried UniConvertor for this purpose. - Larry ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: RFC using SVG with semantic markup as an EDA format
On Apr 12, 2011, at 2:55 AM, Kai-Martin Knaak kn...@iqo.uni-hannover.de wrote: Peter Clifton wrote: TBH, I've not seen SVG anywhere on the main-stream internet. Wikipedia prefers SVG for anything that is not a photograph. The servers render SVG graphics to PNG as needed before handing it out to the browser. Linux desktops use SVG a lot for desktop graphics, but it really isn't as prevalent as it should be. Microsoft and Apple do not like Safari has supported SVG for a while now? Why doesn't apple like SVG? What excuse is there for OpenOffice / LibreOffice being so appallingly bad at working with SVG files? Actually, SVG import is among the first features of libreoffice beyond openoffice: http://www.libreoffice.org/download/new-features-and-fixes/ Why can't we paste them right into TeX, LaTeX or whatever? They are all open source, yet this open format is not supported. IMHO, latex development reached a state of virtual feature freeze before SVG became a viable alternative. Whilst SVG is an obvious open vector standard to support - not a lot of things actually work well with it sadly. The number one open source vector drawing application, inkscape uses SVG as its native file format. This alone would be reason enough to seriously consider SVG as an import/export file format. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak tel: +49-511-762-2895 Universität Hannover, Inst. für Quantenoptik fax: +49-511-762-2211 Welfengarten 1, 30167 Hannover http://www.iqo.uni-hannover.de GPG key:http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=Knaak+kmkop=get ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: RFC using SVG with semantic markup as an EDA format
Steven Michalske wrote: Microsoft and Apple do not like Safari has supported SVG for a while now? Why doesn't apple like SVG? Sorry, I got confused by Apples dislike of flash. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Email: k...@familieknaak.de Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pool.sks-keyservers.net:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: RFC using SVG with semantic markup as an EDA format
I am exploring the idea of using the Scalable Vector Graphics standard as an EDA format. https://github.com/seddona/svgparts Would be interested in your thoughts, there's a little more explanation on my blog. p.s this is probably a topic for -dev but I don't access... -- Andrew Seddon http://www.andrewseddon.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: RFC using SVG with semantic markup as an EDA format
On 04/10/2011 03:55 PM, Andrew Seddon wrote: I am exploring the idea of using the Scalable Vector Graphics standard as an EDA format. $ firefox symbol.svg renders a familiar looking symbol on my debian linux machine. So, are you thinking of making a translation in and out of gschem for all the attributes a full symbol needs? Embedding the attribs in the SVG? Then being able to morph the visual shape of a symbol with well developed tools as inkscape and import into scribus for making a book out of it? That might go over well. Using SVG as the internal format for gschem symbols and pcb footprints might not go over so well as the current formats are more compact. John ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: RFC using SVG with semantic markup as an EDA format
On Sun, 2011-04-10 at 21:55 +0100, Andrew Seddon wrote: I am exploring the idea of using the Scalable Vector Graphics standard as an EDA format. https://github.com/seddona/svgparts Would be interested in your thoughts, there's a little more explanation on my blog. p.s this is probably a topic for -dev but I don't access... The idea of basing future formats on SVG has been thought of, floated, and discussed before now. I don't recall whether any conclusions were reached. I personally have mixed feelings, but am leaning towards the the thought that it is a good idea - but with a healthy dose of uneasiness about it as well. When I designed path support in gschem, I deliberately made the path syntax compatible / identical to SVG paths in case we went down this route at a later stage, and that so more complex paths could be drawn in a graphics program, then copy+pasted from an SVG file. libgeda only saves (and guarantees to load) simple line and bezier curve based paths, but an implementation detail (due to code re-use from librsvg), it can actually read any legal SVG path in its path primitive. When saving, it always converts that out to simple lines and beziers. I'm not as convinced of the idea for PCB layouts / footprints. I'm just not certain the drawing model is constrained enough. to match real world geometry demands. The main niggle is that SVG is more expressive than a generic PCB layer. Things like colours and gradient fills are just not meaningful in copper. That means we need to act intelligently if something adds those. Supporting complex geometry primitives which SVG would bring also means internal processing in PCB might get more difficult. -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: RFC using SVG with semantic markup as an EDA format
On 04/10/2011 07:51 PM, Peter Clifton wrote: Supporting complex geometry primitives which SVG would bring also means internal processing in PCB might get more difficult. And then the ones using external programs to create such data could do the changes to pcb to allow it to parse those data... John ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: RFC using SVG with semantic markup as an EDA format
On Apr 11, 2011, at 8:51 AM, Peter Clifton [1]pc...@cam.ac.uk wrote: On Sun, 2011-04-10 at 21:55 +0100, Andrew Seddon wrote: I am exploring the idea of using the Scalable Vector Graphics standard as an EDA format. [2]https://github.com/seddona/svgparts Would be interested in your thoughts, there's a little more explanation on my blog. p.s this is probably a topic for -dev but I don't access... The idea of basing future formats on SVG has been thought of, floated, and discussed before now. I don't recall whether any conclusions were reached. I personally have mixed feelings, but am leaning towards the the thought that it is a good idea - but with a healthy dose of uneasiness about it as well. My thoughts on this topic are that SVG should be the common format and that converters are made. The converters job would be to map the standardized SVG to the symbols. I propose that there be levels of the svg symbols. Level one only has lines and arcs, level 2 adds text, level three adds polygons and circles... And so on. It would be the converters job to map the symbols and footprints to the EDA package you are using. I'm not as convinced of the idea for PCB layouts / footprints. I'm just not certain the drawing model is constrained enough. to match real world geometry demands. The main niggle is that SVG is more expressive than a generic PCB layer. Things like colours and gradient fills are just not meaningful in copper. That means we need to act intelligently if something adds those. Supporting complex geometry primitives which SVG would bring also means internal processing in PCB might get more difficult. Hence the job of the exporter to map properly to layers. Ignoring or erring on higher level constructs. -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) ___ geda-user mailing list [3]geda-user@moria.seul.org [4]http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user References 1. mailto:pc...@cam.ac.uk 2. https://github.com/seddona/svgparts 3. mailto:geda-user@moria.seul.org 4. http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
