Re: gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit
Bert Timmerman wrote: Hi Dave N6NZ, d...@umich.edu, FWIW, There lives a dxf exporter for pcb in a not yet finished state at: http://github.com/bert/pcb-dxf-hid Maybe something to look at for you guys. I have ample time for further development on this exporter in the foreseeable future, so you may clone/fork as yo see fit. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. That is good news! From what file format are you starting the conversion? If you start with gerber, other pcb CAD programs could use it. Thanks, Dave ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit
Hi Dave, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of d...@umich.edu Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 11:35 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit Bert Timmerman wrote: Hi Dave N6NZ, d...@umich.edu, FWIW, There lives a dxf exporter for pcb in a not yet finished state at: http://github.com/bert/pcb-dxf-hid Maybe something to look at for you guys. I have ample time for further development on this exporter in the foreseeable future, so you may clone/fork as yo see fit. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. That is good news! From what file format are you starting the conversion? If you start with gerber, other pcb CAD programs could use it. Thanks, Dave It's a pcb exporter, so after compiling it becomes part of the pcb app and it gets data from the pcb internal data structs. Not suitable for gerber files, peoples using other pcb-warez (eagle, fritzing, ..., and-what-not) need to adapt it to these specific internal data structures. One caveat might be that the pcb-dxf-hid code may have some bit rot as pcb hid structs seem to have changed a little bit over time. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit
Dave N6NZ wrote: On Jan 21, 2010, at 1:08 PM, d...@umich.edu wrote: snip If you convert the backmask or the frontmask files either with the 'gEDA/pcb to dxf' route or the 'Gerber to dxf', you can very quickly have your solder paste mask. Almost. There *is* a paste layer, although it isn't very flexible (I have plans for that, too). The paste layer and the mask layer are not the same. The paste layer reflects only surface pads, not through-hole pads. Thanks, Dave. I never noticed the paste layer produced by the gerber or the postscript export. That is a great feature of 'pcb'. You can easily do the 'gEDA, Inkscape, pstoedit' process on the paste layer .gbr or .ps file, and you will have your .dxf of it for laser cutting. Dave N6NZ wrote: I just placed an order for a MakerBot CupCake http://www.makerbot.com/ -- mainly just as a toy to share with my 10 year old daughter, who is both nerdy and arty (her self-chosen free-time activities this past Sunday were: a) drawing with her oil pastels, b) doing pcb layout on a game she is building for herself with my help, c) building cholesterol with her organic chemistry model kit) The CupCake should be an interesting toy. The MakerBot looks really cool. MakerBot, pastel oil painting, building cholesterol molecules, making pcb's - at age 10! I am impressed by your daughter's interests and talents! She is lucky to have you encouraging her. I bet she would be fascinated by what Bathsheba Grossman is doing - the 3d printed sculpture, but also the 3d laser etchings in glass of molecules and galaxies. Dave ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit
Hi Dave N6NZ, d...@umich.edu, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of d...@umich.edu Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 8:14 AM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit Dave N6NZ wrote: On Jan 21, 2010, at 1:08 PM, d...@umich.edu wrote: snip If you convert the backmask or the frontmask files either with the 'gEDA/pcb to dxf' route or the 'Gerber to dxf', you can very quickly have your solder paste mask. Almost. There *is* a paste layer, although it isn't very flexible (I have plans for that, too). The paste layer and the mask layer are not the same. The paste layer reflects only surface pads, not through-hole pads. Thanks, Dave. I never noticed the paste layer produced by the gerber or the postscript export. That is a great feature of 'pcb'. You can easily do the 'gEDA, Inkscape, pstoedit' process on the paste layer .gbr or .ps file, and you will have your .dxf of it for laser cutting. FWIW, There lives a dxf exporter for pcb in a not yet finished state at: http://github.com/bert/pcb-dxf-hid Maybe something to look at for you guys. I have ample time for further development on this exporter in the foreseeable future, so you may clone/fork as yo see fit. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit
On Jan 26, 2010, at 11:25 PM, Bert Timmerman wrote: FWIW, There lives a dxf exporter for pcb in a not yet finished state at: http://github.com/bert/pcb-dxf-hid Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. -dave ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit
On Jan 24, 2010, at 3:40 PM, d...@umich.edu wrote: snip Dave, I have been following the RepRap project with interest. A 3D printer that anyone can make is a very cool scratch to itch. I am fascinated by the artwork of the sculpter, Bathsheba Grossman. She really shows what is possible with 3D printing. (http://www.bathsheba.com) Maybe the RepRap will progress to this level of precision, eventually. I am very impressed with the parts that people are currently making with it. I just placed an order for a MakerBot CupCake http://www.makerbot.com/ -- mainly just as a toy to share with my 10 year old daughter, who is both nerdy and arty (her self-chosen free-time activities this past Sunday were: a) drawing with her oil pastels, b) doing pcb layout on a game she is building for herself with my help, c) building cholesterol with her organic chemistry model kit) The CupCake should be an interesting toy. If you already have a good X/Y mechanism, I think just taking the CupCake's plastruder and mounting it on your mill or CNC router or whatever makes sense. I like the idea of using a cnc mill to vector plot the pcb artwork onto a photo-resist board with a laser. I do not think mounting a laser would be very difficult. There must be a low intensity laser that is in the correct frequency range to cure the resist. You could make different apertures easily by creating transparent slides with a single white dot against a black background. As far as a cheap x/y bed, how about doing it with a cheap machine that is massive and solid, like rock? I have been following the epoxy-granite thread on cnczone.com for a long time: Moving a laser pointer or a plastruder around doesn't require a highly rigid X/Y, not like milling or routing. How much rigidity you need really depends on what all you want to do with it. One of the light X/Y's like the Probotix Fireball V90 might be a reasonable choice for plotting and plastruding and light routing. In other news -- a few weeks ago some of us from the robot club visited a local used machine dealer and also the local Haas dealer, kicking tires, mainly. If you want a nice, rigid X/Y the Fanuc Robodrill is a nice rig. :) I won't have one any time soon, but I did get checked out on the Tormach at the TechShop. -dave ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit
CO2 laser is the wrong wavelength to cut metal. Only a couple percent of the radiation is absorbed. Great for plastics, though, and many other materials. With respect to PCB etching, one thing I've thought about but haven't yet tried is simply using paint. Apply a thin code of flat black paint as a resist (I'm guessing enamel would work best) and let the laser ablate the paint where you want to etch. We already use commercial grade pre-photosensitized FR4 laminate, so doing painting and such is not needed. My only concern was that there might be issues of the wave-lengths between the LASER and the laminate being miss-matched, but if the process is actually based on heat then it is a non-issue. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit
On Jan 24, 2010, at 9:39 AM, Dave N6NZ wrote: On Jan 24, 2010, at 4:43 AM, Bob Paddock wrote: CO2 laser is the wrong wavelength to cut metal. Only a couple percent of the radiation is absorbed. Great for plastics, though, and many other materials. With respect to PCB etching, one thing I've thought about but haven't yet tried is simply using paint. Apply a thin code of flat black paint as a resist (I'm guessing enamel would work best) and let the laser ablate the paint where you want to etch. We already use commercial grade pre-photosensitized FR4 laminate, so doing painting and such is not needed. My only concern was that there might be issues of the wave-lengths between the LASER and the laminate being miss-matched, but if the process is actually based on heat then it is a non-issue. Now that will depend on your photochemistry. CO2 laser is not in the visible spectrum. You'd have to check the sensitivity of the photo emulsion w.r.t. wavelength. Most litho films are not sensitive even to red, but do go up into ultra-violet. I can't remember if CO2 is longer or shorter than visible light. In any case, you'd get by with very low power. CO2 is way out in the IR. I guess the way to use it is to vaporize the resist. Note that black in the visible may not be black at the IR wavelength in question, and vice-versa. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit
. Note that black in the visible may not be black at the IR wavelength in question, and vice-versa. For a different application I've been looking for 100% Black Paint for years, any one make it yet? -- http://www.wearablesmartsensors.com/ http://www.softwaresafety.net/ http://www.designer-iii.com/ http://www.unusualresearch.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit
On Jan 24, 2010, at 9:15 AM, John Doty wrote: CO2 is way out in the IR. I guess the way to use it is to vaporize the resist. Note that black in the visible may not be black at the IR wavelength in question, and vice-versa Good point... I should have remembered that because I was part of the local robot club crew that built official IEEE micromouse maze bases, which specifies flat black IR absorbing paint on the maze floor. One of the guys was in charge of testing paint. I was on the ShopBot crew at the TechShop that's my excuse :) -dave ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit
On Jan 24, 2010, at 8:39 AM, Dave N6NZ wrote: Now that will depend on your photochemistry. CO2 laser is not in the visible spectrum. You'd have to check the sensitivity of the photo emulsion w.r.t. wavelength. Most litho films are not sensitive even to red, but do go up into ultra-violet. I can't remember if CO2 is longer or shorter than visible light. In any case, you'd get by with very low power. So now for the wacky idea of the day... an interesting hack would be to make a tool head for a RepRap or some other cheap X/Y bed that simply holds a green laser pointer. That's very funny-- taking it full circle back to building a homebrew photoplotter, just like they use at the fab. :) There *have* actually been some DIY photoplotter projects, you just need to search for those separately. Here is one: http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/10/microcontroller_based_pho.html (And yes, the only use for CO2 in PCB fab is ablating resist layers. Exposing it is impractical.) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit
On Jan 24, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Bob Paddock wrote: For a different application I've been looking for 100% Black Paint for years, any one make it yet? It's what they (whoever they are) point the cores of galaxies with ;-) John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit
I added this post at: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97677 I have tweaked the process a little to get a better result in Inkscape. Rob, at the Inkscape forum offered some help: http://www.inkscapeforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=28t=4279 He, thinks that the 'Stroke to Path' problem looks like a mathematical rounding error. That makes sense to me. So now, the first thing I do, after loading the .ps file into Inkscape, is to scale it x10. I do all of the 'ungroup', 'path to stroke', and 'union' operations on it and then scale it back to normal size. At 10x the size, the 'Path to Stroke' does better at converting the end caps on the lines; and, after the 'Union' operation, the 45 deg. and 90 deg. corners are smoother on the traces. You might think scaling 100x would be even better. However, by scaling x100 in Inkscape and then doing 'Path to Stroke' and 'Union', a new set of problems arise. gEDA/pcb creates the solid ground plane out of multiple polygons that are butted up against each other, and meant to be treated as one solid object. At x100 scale, tiny slivers of white background show between some of them. They are 'boolean union'-ing into a single object, but with long, thin slivers taken out of the solid ground plane. The scaling seems to be slightly offsetting the nodes - looks like another rounding error to me. So, x10 gets good results. I am very happy with it. [picture] Thanks, Dave ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit
Seriously its 2010, even hardcore open-source hippies should be able to afford a decent board house, there are practically no uses for single-sided-non-pth-boards and the number of any kind of important components made in through-hole form factor is decreasing by the month. Sometimes you simply can not wait for 24 hour or 1 day turns in the real world. Myself I thought Dave's work was very well timed. Management saw this: http://www.epiloglaser.com/ at CES and is thinking of spending money (a rare event) on one of them. There actually is a lot of industrial related stuff at the consumer show. What I wonder is if this Epilog machine can really do PCBs. I have my doubts about etching the copper directly, but I hope it can harden some pre-sensitize some board material, that can then be conventionally etched. I'll let you know if it happens... ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit
We have an Epilog. Low-power lasers of this type cannot cut (or even etch) copper foil, nor can they cut FR4. You can potentially use it to blast away an etch-resist layer, however; I've seen several examples of this. Here is one: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41222 -Windell On Jan 23, 2010, at 12:10 PM, Bob Paddock wrote: Sometimes you simply can not wait for 24 hour or 1 day turns in the real world. Myself I thought Dave's work was very well timed. Management saw this: http://www.epiloglaser.com/ at CES and is thinking of spending money (a rare event) on one of them. There actually is a lot of industrial related stuff at the consumer show. What I wonder is if this Epilog machine can really do PCBs. I have my doubts about etching the copper directly, but I hope it can harden some pre-sensitize some board material, that can then be conventionally etched. I'll let you know if it happens... ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit
On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 03:51:50PM -0800, Windell H. Oskay wrote: We have an Epilog. Low-power lasers of this type cannot cut (or even etch) copper foil, nor can they cut FR4. Even the new one Techshop Portland just got (cuts 1.25 acrylic in one pass) can't make PCBs directly. But it did cost about the same as Epilog's lowest-end machine (the zing). http://www.rabbitlaser.com/products/laserse.htm -- Ben Jackson AD7GD b...@ben.com http://www.ben.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit
On Jan 23, 2010, at 12:10 PM, Bob Paddock wrote: snip Management saw this: http://www.epiloglaser.com/ at CES and is thinking of spending money (a rare event) on one of them. There actually is a lot of industrial related stuff at the consumer show. I've used modern Epilog machines, and own a very crotchety old one that is no longer supported. I pray to the $DIETY of lasers that the tube doesn't die What I wonder is if this Epilog machine can really do PCBs. I have my doubts about etching the copper directly, CO2 laser is the wrong wavelength to cut metal. Only a couple percent of the radiation is absorbed. Great for plastics, though, and many other materials. With respect to PCB etching, one thing I've thought about but haven't yet tried is simply using paint. Apply a thin code of flat black paint as a resist (I'm guessing enamel would work best) and let the laser ablate the paint where you want to etch. Contact me off-line if you want to chat laser cutters. -dave ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit
On Jan 23, 2010, at 3:51 PM, Windell H. Oskay wrote: We have an Epilog. Low-power lasers of this type cannot cut (or even etch) copper foil, nor can they cut FR4. You can potentially use it to blast away an etch-resist layer, however; I've seen several examples of this. Here is one: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41222 cool link. hadn't seen that one. He talks about getting the speed/power settings right so that the paint totally ablates without burning, and also so that flakes don't re-deposit back onto the board. Of course, you don't want it to re-deposit onto your optics, either. I can imagine it all being very tweaky. The modern Epilogs have what they call air assist which is essentially a small jet of air directed on the focal point that disperses the flammable gasses created in the kerf. It helps tremendously with flamage when cutting certain materials. My machine doesn't have that, I'd like to jury-rig a blower of some kind. Of course, if stuff comes off in large flakes, like it sounds like the paint does, you probably want just a big exhaust flow going across the board to pull it out before it can land anywhere. -dave ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit
On Jan 20, 2010, at 11:52 PM, Ben Jackson wrote: The polygon code is fully generic. It can do what you describe (in fact, it does, it just probably doesn't output in the format you want). Hmmm well, point me at the code, and I'll have a look at seeing what it would take to sew in Ribbonsoft's dxflib as a writer. All I really want to do is convert the edges of pads into lines and arcs. This sounds like an exercise in pulling X's and Y's out of pcb and stuffing them into dxflib objects. Assuming I can get arcs for the ends of rounded pads polygon1.c is PCB code that knows how to render PCB objects (like pads and lines) as polygons. polygon.c is a polygon library of sorts. Someone pasted in a long explanation I wrote into one of those (polygon1, I think). It knows how to make arcs, but it makes them out of straight segments. Upon reflection, it still seems to me that the correct place in the tool flow for gerber-dxf is in gerbv, not pcb. I've never looked at the new internals of gerbv since it has been rewritten and library-ified. So... am I deluded, or does this scenario make sense: 1. Turn the polygon code in pcb into a formal library 2. Add an export dxf outlines dialog/functionality to gerbv 3. Use the polygon library in gerbv to recognize connected gerber stroke outlines. 4. Add some new code to convert stroke outlines into dxflib objects 5. Use dxflib to write a dxf file. This seems to me like it would solve my paste layer extraction problem, as well as provide a path to pcb milling. In addition, it would provide a path to get a pcb design into the mechanical design flow. For example: A. To get a paste layer, I would load my design in gerbv, and simply export the paste layer as dxf outlines, and drop into my current tool flow. B. To mill a PCB, select a copper layer, and export as dxf outlines. Then use your regular CAM tool to create gcode from the dxf. C. To feed the mechanical design assembly, export the outline layer and drill layer (to get the mounting holes) as a dxf file, probably with two different layers in the dxf file, or perhaps as two dxf files. Import into Solidworks (or whatever) and turn it into a part drawing. (At this point, we'll probably start wishing footprints contained a model of the component hull.) I believe gerbv is the right place for dxf export, since that creates a tool that works with any gerber file from any tool. The overall tool flow is more logical that way. -dave ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit
On Thu, 2010-01-21 at 11:47 -0800, Dave N6NZ wrote: Upon reflection, it still seems to me that the correct place in the tool flow for gerber-dxf is in gerbv, not pcb. I've never looked at the new internals of gerbv since it has been rewritten and library-ified. So... am I deluded, or does this scenario make sense: 1. Turn the polygon code in pcb into a formal library Somewhat awkward - as it relies on various PCB internals, data-structures and other algorithms. (Not themselves necessarily warranting their one library, but their usage not confined to the polygon code). Not impossible though. I've been quite tempted to use portions of the contour boolean operation routines on some academic work I've been meaning to get around to... Arbitrary polygon constructive geometry would be really handy for some iterative finite-element model generation I want to do. [snip] I believe gerbv is the right place for dxf export, since that creates a tool that works with any gerber file from any tool. The overall tool flow is more logical that way. Keep it modular enough, and it could live in PCB as well.. keeping the CAM export steps all together. Or.. go more modular (and Unix-y?): Have a gbr2dxf tool which links against libgerbv to do the work, but keep it out of gerbv. I don't have a good intuition which way to go on this. Proper project management should be able to being all the export steps together anyway. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit
Here are some additional posts I added to: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=722034#post722034 **Post 1** An alternate place in the software tool chain to put a 'DXF' button could be in gEDA's gerber viewer program - gerbv. Under gerbv's 'File' menu, there is an 'Export' command, which gives you the choices to save the file as a PNG, PDF, SVG, or a PostScript file. A 'DXF' choice could be added to the list. This might be a better place than in the gEDA/pcb program, since gerber files are the universal file format for pcb manufacture. With the conversion happening in gerbv, any pcb CAD program that can create gerber files could use gerbv to turn pcb artwork into .dxf outlines. Edit: If both gEDA/pcb and gEDA/gerbv used the same backend program to internally convert from .ps to 'path to stroke + union' to dxf, then an 'Export as DXF' button could be available in both programs. **Post 2** Here is my next discovery: 'Gerber to dxf using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit' I have found another route through the gEDA suite's software to produce a .ps file that then gets converted in Inkscape and pstoedit to a .dxf file outline. But now, any software that can produce a gerber file can use this method. So, those of you using using a different pcb CAD program, like Eagle, can export your pcb artwork as a gerber file and use this process to make .dxf files. *** I start in gEDA/pcb with the finished artwork by choosing 'File Export layout...', then I click the 'gerber' button in the next window. Or I could generate a gerber file from within Eagle or any other pcb CAD program. Now, I open gEDA's gerbv (Gerber Viewer) program and select 'File Open Layer(s)..'. I browse to where I saved the gerber file and click 'Open'. The file is now loaded into gerbv for viewing. Next, I choose 'File Export... PostScript', and a .ps file of the artwork is saved. Then I do the 'Stroke to Path' and 'Union' steps in Inkscape that I described earlier. Followed by the step using pstoedit and its '-f dxf_s' option. I am left with a very decent .dxf file containing an almost perfect outline of the pcb traces, pads, and polygons! Here are a few examples of the result: [I posted a couple of new pics] What I like about both methods of getting to the .dxf file from either gEDA/pcb or gerbv is that there is no fiddling and futsing with thousands of individual objects to get the image correct. I just 'select all' a few times and do a few steps and a few saves. It is fast. Reading my long post is not fast, but the two methods are fast. Dave N6NZ, If you convert the backmask or the frontmask files either with the 'gEDA/pcb to dxf' route or the 'Gerber to dxf', you can very quickly have your solder paste mask. If you are laser cutting it, I imagine that you might have to do some standard offsetting of the .dxf file outlines in the CAM program to get the dimensions perfect. Ben and Dave, If you are interested in writing some code to add a dxf conversion button to pcb and gerbv, maybe trying these two methods on a few of your own pcb images will give you some ideas. I think creating a backend program that both pcb and gerbv can use would be a good idea. If the starting point is a .ps file, then both programs could use the same backend. Thanks, Dave ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit
On Jan 21, 2010, at 12:28 PM, Peter Clifton wrote: snip I believe gerbv is the right place for dxf export, since that creates a tool that works with any gerber file from any tool. The overall tool flow is more logical that way. Keep it modular enough, and it could live in PCB as well.. keeping the CAM export steps all together. Or.. go more modular (and Unix-y?): The argument for modularity is partly that not everyone designs pcb's with pcb. Intercepting the workflow before the gerber step cuts off those users. The only argument for including the functionality in pcb is short-term coding convenience. In the long run, modularity split along well defined interfaces wins. Have a gbr2dxf tool which links against libgerbv to do the work, but keep it out of gerbv. Yes, well, I thought of that. I was thinking that a gbr2dxf tool would want some kind of layer selection mechanism, but now that I reflect on it, all the layers are in their own file anyway. So the selection function is simply listing the gerber files on the command line. gbr2dxf could reasonably be a gui-less one-shot tool. Maybe the 2D boolean sub-library of CGAL makes sense for polygon-izing? Or modifying the pcb polygon code to run off of gerbv data structures? -dave ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit
For those of you doubting that quality two sided pcb's can be milled on a home shop machine, check out these links: Pics: http://millpcbs.com/index.php?option=com_contentview=articleid=25Itemid=67 http://millpcbs.com/index.php?option=com_contentview=articleid=26Itemid=68 http://millpcbs.com/index.php?option=com_contentview=articleid=27Itemid=69 Video of milling 2 sided, fine traced pcb: http://millpcbs.com/index.php?option=com_contentview=articleid=30Itemid=51 He is using this machine: http://www.probotix.com/FireBall_v90_cnc_router_kit Thanks, Dave ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit
On Jan 21, 2010, at 1:08 PM, d...@umich.edu wrote: snip An alternate place in the software tool chain to put a 'DXF' button could be in gEDA's gerber viewer program - gerbv. Under gerbv's 'File' menu, there is an 'Export' command, which gives you the choices to save the file as a PNG, PDF, SVG, or a PostScript file. A 'DXF' choice could be added to the list. Yes, requires constructing polygons from aperture strokes. That's where the rubber meets the road. snip If you convert the backmask or the frontmask files either with the 'gEDA/pcb to dxf' route or the 'Gerber to dxf', you can very quickly have your solder paste mask. Almost. There *is* a paste layer, although it isn't very flexible (I have plans for that, too). The paste layer and the mask layer are not the same. The paste layer reflects only surface pads, not through-hole pads. If you are laser cutting it, I imagine that you might have to do some standard offsetting of the .dxf file outlines in the CAM program to get the dimensions perfect. Yes, currently I use the ps shrinkage to adjust sizes, which isn't perfect. I want to add a paste layer keyword to footprints so that I can control the aperture directly. Ben and Dave, If you are interested in writing some code to add a dxf conversion button to pcb and gerbv, maybe trying these two methods on a few of your own pcb images will give you some ideas. I think creating a backend program that both pcb and gerbv can use would be a good idea. If the starting point is a .ps file, then both programs could use the same backend. The postscript file is a kludgy intermediate step that needs to be eradicated in the 'clean' solution. -dave n6nz ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit
Dave and Peter, How about this? d...@umich.edu wrote: If you are interested in writing some code to add a dxf conversion button to pcb and gerbv, maybe trying these two methods on a few of your own pcb images will give you some ideas. I think creating a backend program that both pcb and gerbv can use would be a good idea. If the starting point is a .ps file, then both programs could use the same backend. I very much like the idea of gerbv being a gerber to dxf conversion program that all pcb CAD programs could use. Thanks, Dave ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit
Dave N6NZ wrote: The postscript file is a kludgy intermediate step that needs to be eradicated in the 'clean' solution. -dave n6nz That makes sense. I do agree that having a conversion to dxf in gerbv is a good idea. I think it would attract a lot of people to gEDA who are using Eagle and other programs. Then they would see how great the rest of the gEDA suite is. Since the gerber file format is shared by both pcb and gerbv, that would be the place to start from, so that both programs could share a DXF export function. In pcb, if you chose the 'Export dxf' button, it could do an internal conversion of the artwork to .gbr and then call the backend program to do the conversion to .dxf and then save the result. Gerbv would just call the backend program and do the conversion. Thanks, Dave ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit
I couldn't help but chuckle at your explanation of unconnected ground pours after you said you were milling your boards presumable on a hand-made-out-of-plywood-cnc. kinda like trying to kill a fly with a jackhammer. Seriously its 2010, even hardcore open-source hippies should be able to afford a decent board house, there are practically no uses for single-sided-non-pth-boards and the number of any kind of important components made in through-hole form factor is decreasing by the month. my 2c. On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 1:56 PM, d...@umich.edu wrote: Hey everyone, I just created a thread on cnczone.com, which I want to bring to your attention. I titled it, Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97677 I think I have worked out a good software tool chain to create .dxf files for milling pcb's. It starts with the gEDA suite of software, uses Inkscape, and then pstoedit. Please, let me know what you think. Thanks, Dave ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit
On Jan 20, 2010, at 1:59 AM, timecop wrote: Seriously its 2010, even hardcore open-source hippies should be able to afford a decent board house, there are practically no uses for single-sided-non-pth-boards and the number of any kind of important components made in through-hole form factor is decreasing by the month. Yes, it's 2010. And people are using circuitry for things you never imagined. They need encouragement, not ridicule. -Windell ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit
timecop wrote: I couldn't help but chuckle at your explanation of unconnected ground pours after you said you were milling your boards presumable on a hand-made-out-of-plywood-cnc. kinda like trying to kill a fly with a jackhammer. Your mastery of the english language is truly daunting. ;-) Seriously its 2010, even hardcore open-source hippies should be able to afford a decent board house, You seem to have missed the point of open source. It's not, nor has it ever been, about saving money. It's about scratching an itch. Dave wants to build his own PCBs with a handmade CNC machine. Awesome! If, for nothing else, he'll understand and appreciate the manufacturing process better. If there are improvements made to geda/inkscape/etc along the way, all the better. there are practically no uses for single-sided-non-pth-boards Except to those of us who are trying to do that learning thing... and the number of any kind of important components made in through-hole form factor is decreasing by the month. We all have to start somewhere. Crawl, walk, then run. thx, Jason. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit
On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 11:56:25PM -0500, d...@umich.edu wrote: I just created a thread on cnczone.com, which I want to bring to your attention. I titled it, Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit: I have been thinking about how to do improved isolation routing. Someone mailed the list a picture where the only cuts were the ones necessary to cut the board into islands congruent with the copper. So imagine you have just two pads on your board. The 'outlines' would cut two boxes. The 'isolation' would just be a line bisecting the board between the two pads. Anyway, I'm surprised by your 'stroke to path' step. That turns every line into a rectangle. Then when you union them all you actually have a bunch of polygons with area, not 'hairlines' that you would chain cut in a CAM program. If you want to save something like that directly from PCB, though, the polygon code could do all of your Inkscape steps internally. -- Ben Jackson AD7GD b...@ben.com http://www.ben.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit
On Jan 20, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Ben Jackson wrote: On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 11:56:25PM -0500, d...@umich.edu wrote: I just created a thread on cnczone.com, which I want to bring to your attention. I titled it, Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit: I have been thinking about how to do improved isolation routing. Someone mailed the list a picture where the only cuts were the ones necessary to cut the board into islands congruent with the copper. So imagine you have just two pads on your board. The 'outlines' would cut two boxes. The 'isolation' would just be a line bisecting the board between the two pads. How do you differentiate between pads that must be a certain shape, like for an SMT capacitor, and islands that simply need to be separated? If you want to save something like that directly from PCB, though, the polygon code could do all of your Inkscape steps internally. Ahhh so... does that mean the polygon code could be easily tweaked to produce the vector outlines of all the pads on the paste layer? That would be 95% of what I need for laser cutting solder stencils. -dave ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 09:20:34PM -0800, Dave N6NZ wrote: On Jan 20, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Ben Jackson wrote: I have been thinking about how to do improved isolation routing. How do you differentiate between pads that must be a certain shape, like for an SMT capacitor, and islands that simply need to be separated? We're talking about issues of parasitic capacitance here? I wasn't worrying about those issues. A SMT part would connect to two different nets and thus the two pads would be isolated. The way I envision it there would be a line cut halfway between the two pads (width somewhat out of our control because it is due to the depth of cut and the V-profile bit). If you want to save something like that directly from PCB, though, the polygon code could do all of your Inkscape steps internally. Ahhh so... does that mean the polygon code could be easily tweaked to produce the vector outlines of all the pads on the paste layer? That would be 95% of what I need for laser cutting solder stencils. The polygon code is fully generic. It can do what you describe (in fact, it does, it just probably doesn't output in the format you want). But it can also do the things you did in Inkscape (union areas, etc) -- Ben Jackson AD7GD b...@ben.com http://www.ben.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit
On Jan 20, 2010, at 10:14 PM, Ben Jackson wrote: On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 09:20:34PM -0800, Dave N6NZ wrote: On Jan 20, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Ben Jackson wrote: I have been thinking about how to do improved isolation routing. How do you differentiate between pads that must be a certain shape, like for an SMT capacitor, and islands that simply need to be separated? We're talking about issues of parasitic capacitance here? I wasn't worrying about those issues. No, I was concerned about the shape of the pad w.r.t. correct solder reflow. The shape of the pad and the surface tension of the solder is what pulls the part into place. Assuming, of course, that you are not hand soldering -- but I bought a refurbished toaster oven off Amazon for cheap :) And Target has a nice selection of electric skillets If you want to save something like that directly from PCB, though, the polygon code could do all of your Inkscape steps internally. Ahhh so... does that mean the polygon code could be easily tweaked to produce the vector outlines of all the pads on the paste layer? That would be 95% of what I need for laser cutting solder stencils. The polygon code is fully generic. It can do what you describe (in fact, it does, it just probably doesn't output in the format you want). Hmmm well, point me at the code, and I'll have a look at seeing what it would take to sew in Ribbonsoft's dxflib as a writer. All I really want to do is convert the edges of pads into lines and arcs. This sounds like an exercise in pulling X's and Y's out of pcb and stuffing them into dxflib objects. Assuming I can get arcs for the ends of rounded pads But it can also do the things you did in Inkscape (union areas, etc) Not me, that was the *other* Dave who was using inkscape, the Dave that started this thread. I'm just thread-jacking to talk about paste stencils :) -dave n6nz (the other, other Dave) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 10:55:51PM -0800, Dave N6NZ wrote: No, I was concerned about the shape of the pad w.r.t. correct solder reflow. I guess I was assuming that if you were milling a PCB you were prototyping and thus hand assembling. Of course you could still mill individual outlines if you wanted -- I was just looking at options to speed it up. It's an interesting geometry problem! The polygon code is fully generic. It can do what you describe (in fact, it does, it just probably doesn't output in the format you want). Hmmm well, point me at the code, and I'll have a look at seeing what it would take to sew in Ribbonsoft's dxflib as a writer. All I really want to do is convert the edges of pads into lines and arcs. This sounds like an exercise in pulling X's and Y's out of pcb and stuffing them into dxflib objects. Assuming I can get arcs for the ends of rounded pads polygon1.c is PCB code that knows how to render PCB objects (like pads and lines) as polygons. polygon.c is a polygon library of sorts. Someone pasted in a long explanation I wrote into one of those (polygon1, I think). It knows how to make arcs, but it makes them out of straight segments. Not me, that was the *other* Dave who was using inkscape, the Dave that started this thread. I'm just thread-jacking to talk about paste stencils :) I can only handle one Dave at a time! -- Ben Jackson AD7GD b...@ben.com http://www.ben.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit
Hey everyone, I just created a thread on cnczone.com, which I want to bring to your attention. I titled it, Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97677 I think I have worked out a good software tool chain to create .dxf files for milling pcb's. It starts with the gEDA suite of software, uses Inkscape, and then pstoedit. Please, let me know what you think. Thanks, Dave ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit
Hmmm... interesting. I gave your post a quick skim, and will have to go back to read it in detail when I have more time. A while back I created a flow to convert the paste layer to laser cutter code for the creation of solder paste stencils. My path was: 1. print .ps from pcb 2. pstoedit to create a dxf file 3. minor adjustments in QCad, which has the side benefit of cleaning up pstoedit's cheezy .dxf file into something pretty clean. 4. my own code to convert .dxf to laser cutter vectors. For a .dxf reader, I use the GPL'd dxflib that is part of QCad. Note that the essential difference between your goal and my goal is which pcb layer we are starting with. We both want gerber strokes converted into dxf outlines. Re: your comments on strokes. In Postscript, you define a pen and and and end-cap style, and then stroke paths that have been created. Now, in some ways, this is similar to gerbers where you define an aperture and stroke it. In either case, you need to get the outline of the the path. What I've always wanted to do for my stencil program is read the gerbers directly. At the time I originally did my path, that wasn't practical, but the gerbv team has done a major rewrite since then, and in the process library-ified the gerber reader. So I believe the best method for getting gerber to dxf now is: 1. Read gerber using the gerbv library 2. insert magic here to create vector outlines of gerber strokes and flashes 3. Write dxf using QCad's dxflib. As to the magic part... perhaps the 2D constructive solid geometry (CSG) portions of the CGAL library or the OpenCascade library could be used to good effect. I haven't looked deeply at either of them, but I've been skimming over the 3D portion of CGAL, and there you can do CSG unions of various globs and then ask for a mesh back for the hull. I suspect if you poked around the 2D portion of the library you would find the equivalent functionality, ie: CSG unions of 2D shapes, and then ask for the outline back as vectors. It's worth a look. OpenCascade probably has something similar. -dave On Jan 19, 2010, at 8:56 PM, d...@umich.edu wrote: Hey everyone, I just created a thread on cnczone.com, which I want to bring to your attention. I titled it, Schematic Capture to dxf File - using gEDA, Inkscape, and pstoedit: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97677 I think I have worked out a good software tool chain to create .dxf files for milling pcb's. It starts with the gEDA suite of software, uses Inkscape, and then pstoedit. Please, let me know what you think. Thanks, Dave ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
