Re: gEDA-user: geda cygwin package
Gene Heskett wrote: On Friday 15 May 2009, Eric Brombaugh wrote: al davis wrote: On Thursday 14 May 2009, Joerg wrote: What I bemoan is the utter lack of hands-on experience. Most newly minted engineers can't even solder properly. Pathetic. So sad. I recently saw a post on an email list that did a very good job at illustrating, by example, why this is such a problem. You should read it. http://tinyurl.com/p7aze6 A! The deadpan meta-irony makes my head asplode! Eric Yes, there is that. But that comment also demonstrates all too well that old saw about those that can't, teach. Why? Cuz they won't pay someone who _can_ what he can get for that talent in the tech labor marketplace, by about 2-3x. Not necessarily. Many people are willing to teach, whether that be high school or whatever. Out of a give back to the community mentality and the pay is secondary or, at older age, almost irrelevant to them. Yes, just like the open source guys. But then lots of road blocks are thrown in front of them. Like having to first get teaching credentials and so on. Costs time you may not have, and money. I really don't understand why someone who explains electronic design to students and has decades of hands-on experience needs a credential. My second chemistry teacher did not have any teaching credential, had a hard to understand Czech accent, and was one of the best teachers I ever had in my life. He was a lead engineer at a chemical plant that makes laundry detergents, on emergency loan to our school. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: geda cygwin package
-Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of al davis Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 9:42 PM To: geda-user@moria.seul.org Subject: Re: gEDA-user: geda cygwin package On Thursday 14 May 2009, David C. Kerber wrote: I generally agree with your treatise, but here, we part ways just a bit. Why would you specify the OS that I have to be able to work with (Unix)? I can and routinely do do everything else in your paragraph above, all of it self-taught, but I do it on Windows, either at its command line, or by programming or scripting it. Why should it have to be *nix? Why are you here? My degree is in EE, but current profession is as a programmer, database designer and administrator, and network engineer. I said be able to If you are able to work with something other than one particular proprietary operating system, you have a choice, and you might understand why some people prefer the one you don't choose. Absolutely, I do understand. I was simply pointing out that your statement that The EE's should be able to work with unix, with the command line. is overly strong, IMO. I agree with you that anybody who wants to work efficiently with a computer pretty much needs to be able to use a command line, but it doesn't have to be Unix. Maybe you're not familiar with the command-line and scripting capabilities of current windows systems? If you can really do all of those things, you should easily be able to take care of the gEDA windows port. If I had ever done anything in C or any variation thereof, I probably could, but my experience is in VB, Java, Delphi and SQL, none of which are much use with gEDA from what I've seen. Learning C just for that purpose wouldn't be a good use of my company's time, and I don't have enough of my own time to dedicate to that either. I have nothing against any of the *nix systems; I've been pushing for trying some Linux systems in my company for a while, but I finally got some support from another of our developers, so we're at long last looking at porting some of our stuff to Linux. None of us are experienced with it yet, but we love learning new stuff. I guess what bothers me is that many (not all, of course) engineers and developers who are used to working on *nix with C, seem to think that anything windows-based is a toy for somebody who can't handle their chosen path. And that's just as unhelpful an attitude as those who say, without even giving it a real try, that anything that doesn't work the way they're used to on windows is too hard, or is for geeks only. Neither one of those attitudes represent enough of the full picture to be useful for planning a way forward... Dave ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: geda cygwin package
David C. Kerber wrote: I have nothing against any of the *nix systems; I've been pushing for trying some Linux systems in my company for a while, but I finally got some support from another of our developers, so we're at long last looking at porting some of our stuff to Linux. None of us are experienced with it yet, but we love learning new stuff. Many chip companies get advantage running servers based on opteron processors -- the linux compiles of many programs used in simulation fly on those. The way engineering tools were based on unix and recompiling for a 64 bit processors gives a boost economically, with no consideration of any coding or scripting style, is separate from the familiarity reason they have bias towards unixes in chip design land. It's maybe arguable that named pipes, sockets and such features of unixes give more fast prototyping than in Windows -- I can't say from lack of experience. I guess what bothers me is that many (not all, of course) engineers and developers who are used to working on *nix with C, seem to think that anything windows-based is a toy for somebody who can't handle their chosen path. And that's just as unhelpful an attitude as those who say, without even giving it a real try, that anything that doesn't work the way they're used to on windows is too hard, or is for geeks only. Neither one of those attitudes represent enough of the full picture to be useful for planning a way forward... Nope. John Griessen -- Ecosensory Austin TX tinyOS devel on: ubuntu Linux; tinyOS v2.0.2; telosb ecosens1 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: geda cygwin package
Peter Baxendale wrote: On Thu, 2009-05-14 at 13:25 -0400, al davis wrote: Educators typically use simulators very poorly, as if they themselves don't understand. In most cases, the total use is a few specified runs with a couple of graphs, that you do after everything else is done. A more appropriate use of simulators is to explore things that you can't see with real measurements. There is a lot that you can find out about a circuit that you can't measure in a practical way. Students need to learn to be flexible, and they need to learn to use computers effectively, not just by kicking the GUI a few times. EE's, even analog designers, need to learn some serious programming. You're right, of course. In mitigation let me say that the particular course for which I use swcad (LTSpice) is 4 x 2hr sessions for a dozen students who've never seen an electronic cad package before. I try to give them an understanding of the process from design to schematic to test by simulation to pcb. I use gschem/gattrib/gsch2pcb/pcb and swcad. The choice of swcad was a compromise to give me a better chance of fitting it all in. It just gives them a taster for what might be possible using simulation. IMHO that was a smart choice. Whether we like it or not, nearly all of those kids will be owning Windows-based laptops plus some maybe with Apple. It is best when they can simply use the simulator on their own laptops so they have a chance to keep working on a problem over lunch or on weekends. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: geda cygwin package
al davis wrote: On Thursday 14 May 2009, Joerg wrote: What I bemoan is the utter lack of hands-on experience. Most newly minted engineers can't even solder properly. Pathetic. So sad. I recently saw a post on an email list that did a very good job at illustrating, by example, why this is such a problem. You should read it. http://tinyurl.com/p7aze6 Huh? scratching head -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: geda cygwin package
On May 15, 2009, at 10:43 AM, Joerg wrote: Peter Baxendale wrote: On Thu, 2009-05-14 at 13:25 -0400, al davis wrote: Educators typically use simulators very poorly, as if they themselves don't understand. In most cases, the total use is a few specified runs with a couple of graphs, that you do after everything else is done. A more appropriate use of simulators is to explore things that you can't see with real measurements. There is a lot that you can find out about a circuit that you can't measure in a practical way. Students need to learn to be flexible, and they need to learn to use computers effectively, not just by kicking the GUI a few times. EE's, even analog designers, need to learn some serious programming. You're right, of course. In mitigation let me say that the particular course for which I use swcad (LTSpice) is 4 x 2hr sessions for a dozen students who've never seen an electronic cad package before. I try to give them an understanding of the process from design to schematic to test by simulation to pcb. I use gschem/gattrib/gsch2pcb/pcb and swcad. The choice of swcad was a compromise to give me a better chance of fitting it all in. It just gives them a taster for what might be possible using simulation. IMHO that was a smart choice. Whether we like it or not, nearly all of those kids will be owning Windows-based laptops plus some maybe with Apple. It is best when they can simply use the simulator on their own laptops so they have a chance to keep working on a problem over lunch or on weekends. For a class, a better solution might be a live memory stick. You can fit a Linux (I'd probably choose Ubuntu) on a $10 stick. Install gEDA et al., make copies, distribute to students. Most likely there will be fewer problems this way than dealing with software imported into multiple versions and configurations of an alien environment. This should even work for an Intel Mac. Then everybody's running the same thing, same appearance, same facilities, few surprises (there are never *no* surprises). Maybe have 'em hand in their work on their stick, save trees... John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: geda cygwin package
On May 15, 2009, at 12:14 PM, al davis wrote: On Thursday 14 May 2009, Joerg wrote: What I bemoan is the utter lack of hands-on experience. Most newly minted engineers can't even solder properly. Pathetic. So sad. I recently saw a post on an email list that did a very good job at illustrating, by example, why this is such a problem. You should read it. http://tinyurl.com/p7aze6 Very good, and to the point! Keep the humor dry and eat those powdermilk biscuits. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: geda cygwin package
On Friday 15 May 2009, Eric Brombaugh wrote: al davis wrote: On Thursday 14 May 2009, Joerg wrote: What I bemoan is the utter lack of hands-on experience. Most newly minted engineers can't even solder properly. Pathetic. So sad. I recently saw a post on an email list that did a very good job at illustrating, by example, why this is such a problem. You should read it. http://tinyurl.com/p7aze6 A! The deadpan meta-irony makes my head asplode! Eric Yes, there is that. But that comment also demonstrates all too well that old saw about those that can't, teach. Why? Cuz they won't pay someone who _can_ what he can get for that talent in the tech labor marketplace, by about 2-3x. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) The problem with graduate students, in general, is that they have to sleep every few days. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: geda cygwin package
On Wed, 2009-05-13 at 13:19 -0400, al davis wrote: Gnucap has always worked on windows. It works with gEDA, with gnetlist generating a spice file, as well as any simulator does. How about using Gnucap? Well, for this particular course, for these particular students I needed something they could start doing very simple simulations with reasonable graphical output with about a 5 minute intro. Last time I looked at gnucap there was a steeper learning curve, which I just didn't have time for on this course. I'd certainly look at gnucap for anything more advanced - something that's been on my summer list of things to do for the past few years. -- Peter Baxendale University of Durham peter.baxend...@durham.ac.uk School of Engineering tel +44 191 33 42492 South Road fax +44 191 33 42408 Durham DH1 3LE England ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: geda cygwin package
Peter Baxendale wrote: On Wed, 2009-05-13 at 13:19 -0400, al davis wrote: Gnucap has always worked on windows. It works with gEDA, with gnetlist generating a spice file, as well as any simulator does. How about using Gnucap? Well, for this particular course, for these particular students I needed something they could start doing very simple simulations with reasonable graphical output with about a 5 minute intro. Last time I looked at gnucap there was a steeper learning curve, which I just didn't have time for on this course. I'd certainly look at gnucap for anything more advanced - something that's been on my summer list of things to do for the past few years. AFAIK Gnucap is not quite SPICE-compatible, but that's what your students will be facing when they head out into industry. LTSpice might be an alternative. Very short learning curve, free of cost, nice graphics output and by now very widespread in industry. LTSpice probably runs under wine but try it out first, see if the help files are ok because students will certainly need those a lot. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ gmail domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: geda cygwin package
On Thursday 14 May 2009, Joerg wrote: AFAIK Gnucap is not quite SPICE-compatible, but that's what your students will be facing when they head out into industry. LTSpice might be an alternative. Very short learning curve, free of cost, nice graphics output and by now very widespread in industry. It depends which spice. Strictly, SPICE is not SPICE compatible, because if you move to a different one something will be different. I get the impression that what you want is bug-for-bug compatibility. From a beginners perspective, the important differences between Gnucap and any particular Spice are usually that Gnucap has extra capability that the Spice doesn't have, and this extra capability is useful to a beginner. From the viewpoint of undergraduate education, it is as close as any, and provides an experience closer to the high-end simulators than the PC spice's do. It has a shorter learning curve that the real Spice from Berkeley, and a smoother learning curve than the graphic commercial and cover-crop spice's. The popular graphic PC spice's carry you part way in luxury, then dump you when you really need it. The PC graphic spice's only provide a short learning curve if you already are comfortable with the typical project baggage. Then if you want to play, to do more than what you can do with a few kick buttons, you need to start over. Educators typically use simulators very poorly, as if they themselves don't understand. In most cases, the total use is a few specified runs with a couple of graphs, that you do after everything else is done. A more appropriate use of simulators is to explore things that you can't see with real measurements. There is a lot that you can find out about a circuit that you can't measure in a practical way. Students need to learn to be flexible, and they need to learn to use computers effectively, not just by kicking the GUI a few times. EE's, even analog designers, need to learn some serious programming. Too many schools don't do this. In the extreme case, EE could become a dumping ground for students who can't make it in CS. Is that what you want? ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: geda cygwin package
al davis wrote: On Thursday 14 May 2009, Joerg wrote: AFAIK Gnucap is not quite SPICE-compatible, but that's what your students will be facing when they head out into industry. LTSpice might be an alternative. Very short learning curve, free of cost, nice graphics output and by now very widespread in industry. It depends which spice. Strictly, SPICE is not SPICE compatible, because if you move to a different one something will be different. I get the impression that what you want is bug-for-bug compatibility. From a beginners perspective, the important differences between Gnucap and any particular Spice are usually that Gnucap has extra capability that the Spice doesn't have, and this extra capability is useful to a beginner. Not bug-for-bug, but as close to the industry standard as practical. If you let them use something that has nice features they get used to those, and then in industry where they don't have those it becomes a problem. You can do just about anything with SPICE, even simulate mechanical devices. But one has to learn who to kludge and cajole SPICE to do that. From the viewpoint of undergraduate education, it is as close as any, and provides an experience closer to the high-end simulators than the PC spice's do. It has a shorter learning curve that the real Spice from Berkeley, and a smoother learning curve than the graphic commercial and cover-crop spice's. The popular graphic PC spice's carry you part way in luxury, then dump you when you really need it. The PC graphic spice's only provide a short learning curve if you already are comfortable with the typical project baggage. Then if you want to play, to do more than what you can do with a few kick buttons, you need to start over. That's where Usenet comes in :-) Even a (very) seasoned engineer had to ask about that three days ago, how to set abstol and stuff and make it travel with the file. Nothing wrong with asking. Educators typically use simulators very poorly, as if they themselves don't understand. In most cases, the total use is a few specified runs with a couple of graphs, that you do after everything else is done. A more appropriate use of simulators is to explore things that you can't see with real measurements. There is a lot that you can find out about a circuit that you can't measure in a practical way. Absolutely. That's how I found what degraded and eventually killed RF switching diodes in a client's board. With PSPICE. Impossible to see even with sampling scopes. Educators should give students stuff to grind their teeth on like Hey, this thing doesn't work right, find out why and how to improve it. Students need to learn to be flexible, and they need to learn to use computers effectively, not just by kicking the GUI a few times. EE's, even analog designers, need to learn some serious programming. They need to and they do, to some extent. They do not have to become programming experts, else I might as well demand that all CS guys fully understand Maxwell's equations because we have to ;-) Too many schools don't do this. In the extreme case, EE could become a dumping ground for students who can't make it in CS. Is that what you want? That has IME never been the case, and won't be. None of the EEs I know started out CS. And don't believe EE is easy, our university had an EE flunk-out rate of around 75% plus. ME and EE were the toughest paths there, some of the grueling 4h written exams could make grown men shake in their boots. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ gmail domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: geda cygwin package
On Thursday 14 May 2009, Joerg wrote: Not bug-for-bug, but as close to the industry standard as practical. If you let them use something that has nice features they get used to those, and then in industry where they don't have those it becomes a problem. You can do just about anything with SPICE, even simulate mechanical devices. But one has to learn who to kludge and cajole SPICE to do that. It's pretty close. In the development snapshot, and in the next official release due this summer, the whole user interface is done by plugins, which can be made any way you want. Perhaps someday it will be bug-for-bug, with more than one, and still have extensions if you ask. Significant parts of industry are moving to Verilog-A. None of the cheap simulators have it, but Gnucap does. Gnucap also accepts Spectre netlists, a subset. As to those nice features .. all tools have advantages and disadvantages. There are features you will find in one but not another. Students need to learn this. So, having nice features like Gnucap's interactive operation, extended probes, and the ability to easily change circuits interactively or with scripts is good. The ability to directly enter a netlist without file baggage is a big help at the beginning. On the other hand, the tightly integrated graphics of LTspice and other PC simulators is in that category where they don't really add to functionality, but become a crutch. Then they have a problem when the GUI isn't available, or more importantly they have a task that is complicated enough that the GUI gets in the way. Those features are the ones to avoid. So, it's LTspice that has nice features that they would be better off without. I start them with a netlist, then later they learn how to use schematic capture as a way to generate a netlist. Even a (very) seasoned engineer had to ask about that three days ago, how to set abstol and stuff and make it travel with the file. Nothing wrong with asking. Students need to learn that simulators don't always work. In a senior level course on analog design, it is reasonable to expect that they will see a convergence failure, and need to mess with abstol and stuff. It might even be desirable for a simulator to have a hidden mode that makes convergence worse to make sure this happens. Students need to learn to be flexible, and they need to learn to use computers effectively, not just by kicking the GUI a few times. EE's, even analog designers, need to learn some serious programming. They need to and they do, to some extent. They do not have to become programming experts, else I might as well demand that all CS guys fully understand Maxwell's equations because we have to ;-) Even the CS guys are not programming experts. The EE's should be able to work with unix, with the command line. They should be able to write programs to solve engineering problems. They should be able to administrate their own systems and write scripts to solve their own problems. They should be able to install a program from source, and do some simple porting. At both universities where I was on the faculty, we got constant comments from employers that the students need to learn more programming. We got those comments from accreditation reviewers too. We were not worse than average. It's a widespread problem. Too many schools don't do this. In the extreme case, EE could become a dumping ground for students who can't make it in CS. Is that what you want? That has IME never been the case, and won't be. None of the EEs I know started out CS. And don't believe EE is easy, our university had an EE flunk-out rate of around 75% plus. ME and EE were the toughest paths there, some of the grueling 4h written exams could make grown men shake in their boots. Typically, the first year curriculum is pretty much the same for all science and engineering. The students usually have not really have made up their mind yet. They made a guess, but that's all. They move around depending on how the first year goes. It amazes me how many have said I chose EE because I had trouble with the programming course and want something else. Then they learn too late that EE is hard too. At a lot of schools, the EE program (and probably others) keeps getting easier. Many older EE professors are having a hard time dealing with this. Don't sell CS short. It can be pretty grueling too. We really shouldn't be saying that one is harder than the other. To get back on topic . We had cygwin on the lab computers. I encouraged students to install it on their own computers if they were running windows and didn't also have a unix-type OS such as Linux, BSD, or Mac. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: geda cygwin package
al davis wrote: On Thursday 14 May 2009, Joerg wrote: Not bug-for-bug, but as close to the industry standard as practical. If you let them use something that has nice features they get used to those, and then in industry where they don't have those it becomes a problem. You can do just about anything with SPICE, even simulate mechanical devices. But one has to learn who to kludge and cajole SPICE to do that. It's pretty close. In the development snapshot, and in the next official release due this summer, the whole user interface is done by plugins, which can be made any way you want. Perhaps someday it will be bug-for-bug, with more than one, and still have extensions if you ask. Significant parts of industry are moving to Verilog-A. None of the cheap simulators have it, but Gnucap does. Gnucap also accepts Spectre netlists, a subset. I can only speak for analog. There, I can currently see nobody moving away from SPICE, and except for chip design most are migrating towards LTSpice for obvious reasons ($ versus $0). So when they hire new engineers they prefer them to be familiar with LTSpice. As to those nice features .. all tools have advantages and disadvantages. There are features you will find in one but not another. Students need to learn this. So, having nice features like Gnucap's interactive operation, extended probes, and the ability to easily change circuits interactively or with scripts is good. The ability to directly enter a netlist without file baggage is a big help at the beginning. Ahm, I used to enter everything by netlist and some of the old stuff I have used on LTSpice. It can do that, you'd be free to write a netlist there. On the other hand, the tightly integrated graphics of LTspice and other PC simulators is in that category where they don't really add to functionality, but become a crutch. Then they have a problem when the GUI isn't available, or more importantly they have a task that is complicated enough that the GUI gets in the way. Those features are the ones to avoid. So, it's LTspice that has nice features that they would be better off without. I start them with a netlist, then later they learn how to use schematic capture as a way to generate a netlist. LTSpice can accomodate that. It works off of a plain old ASCII file. Any time I needed it to do something in a more traditional way like in the DOS days, it complied. Even a (very) seasoned engineer had to ask about that three days ago, how to set abstol and stuff and make it travel with the file. Nothing wrong with asking. Students need to learn that simulators don't always work. In a senior level course on analog design, it is reasonable to expect that they will see a convergence failure, and need to mess with abstol and stuff. It might even be desirable for a simulator to have a hidden mode that makes convergence worse to make sure this happens. Yes :-) Just like the flight simulator where suddenly the manifold pressure changes unpredictably right after take-off. Students need to learn to be flexible, and they need to learn to use computers effectively, not just by kicking the GUI a few times. EE's, even analog designers, need to learn some serious programming. They need to and they do, to some extent. They do not have to become programming experts, else I might as well demand that all CS guys fully understand Maxwell's equations because we have to ;-) Even the CS guys are not programming experts. The EE's should be able to work with unix, with the command line. They should be able to write programs to solve engineering problems. They should be able to administrate their own systems and write scripts to solve their own problems. They should be able to install a program from source, and do some simple porting. Ok, here we differ. There comes a point where the amount of learning is plain impossible to cram into any brain in the given number of semesters. While, for example, it would be nice if every person holding a commercial driver license is able to design their own engine control unit this is not going to happen. Did I ever write my own programs? Yes. Would my career have come to a screeching halt if I wouldn't have? No. I would have just paid someone to do it for me. At both universities where I was on the faculty, we got constant comments from employers that the students need to learn more programming. We got those comments from accreditation reviewers too. We were not worse than average. It's a widespread problem. If by accreditation you mean ABET I better not comment, cuz it'll get ugly ;-) Too many schools don't do this. In the extreme case, EE could become a dumping ground for students who can't make it in CS. Is that what you want? That has IME never been the case, and won't be. None of the EEs I know started out CS. And don't
Re: gEDA-user: geda cygwin package
To get back on topic . We had cygwin on the lab computers. I encouraged students to install it on their own computers if they were running windows and didn't also have a unix-type OS such as Linux, BSD, or Mac. Have you seen Sun's Virtual Box? It's very cool. Basically, it creates a virtual environment, somewhat isolated from the host OS, in which you can install any OS you like. At work, I've installed Ubuntu on my XP system. I'm finding it a bit of a memory hog, but otherwise it works just fine. I have Cygwin too, but really prefer the Virtual Box. I get full blown Linux without compromises of Cygwin. Then, if it turns out you don't like it, or want it to go away just delete the virtual partition. gene ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: geda cygwin package
gene glick wrote: To get back on topic . We had cygwin on the lab computers. I encouraged students to install it on their own computers if they were running windows and didn't also have a unix-type OS such as Linux, BSD, or Mac. Have you seen Sun's Virtual Box? It's very cool. Basically, it creates a virtual environment, somewhat isolated from the host OS, in which you can install any OS you like. At work, I've installed Ubuntu on my XP system. I'm finding it a bit of a memory hog, but otherwise it works just fine. I have Cygwin too, but really prefer the Virtual Box. I get full blown Linux without compromises of Cygwin. Then, if it turns out you don't like it, or want it to go away just delete the virtual partition. I'll second that, also using VirtualBox here with Ubuntu mounted on it. Installing the guest additions required some wrestling but this now enables me to jump back and forth between Windows programs and, for example, gschem. You can even copy and paste stuff between the two OS'es. The only thing you must remember is the right-ctrl F key combo to get in and out of full screen mode. It's not cool if you are in full screen for hours and then don't remember how to get back to your host OS (this happened to me the first time I tried gEDA). In full screen mode you literally think you are on a Linux box, tux and all. Except that tux looks mal-nourished and jaundiced on Ubuntu. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: geda cygwin package
On Tue, 2009-05-12 at 23:31 +, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: I'd love to point my coworkers to a place where they can get everything they need to install gschem/pcb in a windows context. If web space is an issue, I may dedicate bandwidth either on my private website or at the university of Hannover. I routinely package up cygwin with built gEDA cygwin executables once a year for our Windows users here. Because it's once a year it gets a bit out of date, but I'd be happy to make it available to anyone interested. It has a readme to tell you how to install it all and includes swcad and the windows installer for gerbv. Unfortunately the zip is too big (133M) for the measly quota I get on our externally accessible servers here. It's tested on students, which is usually a pretty tough test to pass... -- Peter Baxendale University of Durham peter.baxend...@durham.ac.uk School of Engineering tel +44 191 33 42492 South Road fax +44 191 33 42408 Durham DH1 3LE England ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: geda cygwin package
I could offer up space on my personal web site as well. Only 2Mbps ougoing BW, but there's no monthly limit so if only one or two people are hitting it at a time, it would probably suffice. Dave -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Peter Baxendale Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:33 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: gEDA-user: geda cygwin package On Tue, 2009-05-12 at 23:31 +, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: I'd love to point my coworkers to a place where they can get everything they need to install gschem/pcb in a windows context. If web space is an issue, I may dedicate bandwidth either on my private website or at the university of Hannover. I routinely package up cygwin with built gEDA cygwin executables once a year for our Windows users here. Because it's once a year it gets a bit out of date, but I'd be happy to make it available to anyone interested. It has a readme to tell you how to install it all and includes swcad and the windows installer for gerbv. Unfortunately the zip is too big (133M) for the measly quota I get on our externally accessible servers here. It's tested on students, which is usually a pretty tough test to pass... -- -- -- Peter Baxendale University of Durham peter.baxend...@durham.ac.uk School of Engineering tel +44 191 33 42492 South Road fax +44 191 33 42408 Durham DH1 3LE England -- -- ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: geda cygwin package
On Wednesday 13 May 2009, Peter Baxendale wrote: I routinely package up cygwin with built gEDA cygwin executables once a year for our Windows users here. Because it's once a year it gets a bit out of date, but I'd be happy to make it available to anyone interested. It has a readme to tell you how to install it all and includes swcad and the windows installer for gerbv. Unfortunately the zip is too big (133M) for the measly quota I get on our externally accessible servers here. It's tested on students, which is usually a pretty tough test to pass... I have space on gnucap.org, but you will need to take out swcad. gEDA also has space, but again you will need to take out swcad. Gnucap has always worked on windows. It works with gEDA, with gnetlist generating a spice file, as well as any simulator does. How about using Gnucap? ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: geda cygwin package
On Wed, 13 May 2009 17:32:37 +0100, Peter Baxendale wrote: I routinely package up cygwin with built gEDA cygwin executables once a year for our Windows users here. Because it's once a year it gets a bit out of date, but I'd be happy to make it available to anyone interested. It has a readme to tell you how to install it all and includes swcad and the windows installer for gerbv. Unfortunately the zip is too big (133M) for the measly quota I get on our externally accessible servers here. It's tested on students, which is usually a pretty tough test to pass... If you send the zip via mail to kn...@iqo.uni-hannover.de I'd make it available on my slightly inofficial server here at hannover university. Admin is me, so no crippling quotas involved. It would be accessible to the rest of the internet since I arranged for an open port 80 in the firewall. This is the slightly inofficial bit... If you are not happy with such a publically available download link, I can arrange for internal use in hannover only. ---(kaimartin)--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak tel: +49-511-762-2895 Universität Hannover, Inst. für Quantenoptik fax: +49-511-762-2211 Welfengarten 1, 30167 Hannover http://www.iqo.uni-hannover.de GPG key:http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=Knaak+kmkop=get ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: geda cygwin package (Re: geda-user Digest, Vol 36, Issue 35)
Subject: Re: gEDA-user: geda cygwin package From: David C. Kerber [1]dker...@warrenrogersassociates.com Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 13:08:07 -0400 To: gEDA user mailing list [2]geda-user@moria.seul.org To: gEDA user mailing list [3]geda-user@moria.seul.org I could offer up space on my personal web site as well. Only 2Mbps ougoing BW, but there's no monthly limit so if only one or two people are hitting it at a time, it would probably suffice. Dave Hey, why not setup a torrent tracker (or use a public one) ? References 1. mailto:dker...@warrenrogersassociates.com 2. mailto:geda-user@moria.seul.org 3. mailto:geda-user@moria.seul.org ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
