Re: [Gendergap] FW: Proposal: Forking gendergap: Main list for women and transgender, sublist for male supporters
On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 15:56, Daniel and Elizabeth Case danc...@frontiernet.net wrote: Forking this list as a way to make it more effective in its stated purpose is bound to be self-defeating for the simple reason (beyond the inability to effectively authenticate the gender of participants) that Wikipedia itself is not gender-segregated. Any single-gender project to close the gap is, IMO, bound to fail. Informally, I also fear that a women-only list might be even less successful in empowering women on this list to find ways to overcome gender inequity on it. One woman who doesn't post much here, but with whom I correspond, told me the idea, particularly as Laura articulates it, just generally gives her a bad vibe, to the point that she'd avoid any women-only list because women who set them up basically have, in her experience, the ultimate goal of being Queen Bee and lording (ladying?) it over all the other women participating in ways they would never dare to do otherwise if they knew men would become aware of it. I've just written, and deleted, several responses to this. :) It's true that women can be other women's worst critics. I have no answers for it. But I think when discussing this kind of issue we should try to AGF. I know of only one women-only list set up on WP, and the woman who did it had the very best of intentions. Sarah ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Proposal: Forking gendergap: Main list for women and transgender, sublist for male supporters
I completely agree with Fluffy. _ *Béria Lima* Wikimedia Portugal http://wikimedia.pt (351) 963 953 042 *Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a fazer.* 2011/3/16 ChaoticFluffy chaoticflu...@gmail.com I also don't have a problem with Erik's POV in particular. My views on this topic are basically that: 1) Yes, some of the men here are being excessively strident and dismissive in a lot of cases 2) Yes, I feel less inclined to speak my mind because I know that I'm going to have to defend every point I make from three or four men telling me how it's not a problem 3) No, I don't think the solution is to fork the list. We have to function with men onwiki, there's no reason to kick them off here 4) I'm not sure how moderation could be used effectively other than to have moderators speak to people who are overly dismissive. Having a moderator approve all posts seems excessive, but I would support, say, an X-strikes-you're-out policy regarding belittling or dismissive behavior 5) I don't think it's constructive to require the men to justify themselves to us or the list. If they're here, they're here because they want to work on the gender gap. That said... 6) I don't know how many more ways we women can tell you guys that some of you are coming across as obnoxious. I'm sorry if that offends you (mostly because I'm a woman and I've been trained to be sorry if I offend people, hey look how that works), but YOU ARE. Please accept that this is happening, it's making the women unhappy, and we'd like you to think before you speak from now on. 7) Please do NOT immediately protest that you feel like the mean feminist women are trying to oppress you by telling you all this. Feel like we're snap-judging your statements? Feel like we're treating you as your gender rather than yourself, and unfairly so? Feel like we're just not listening to the points you're trying to make? WELCOME TO OUR WORLD AS WOMEN. -Fluff On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 5:18 PM, Nepenthe topazbutter...@gmail.comwrote: Unless Erik has alter egos posting here, I didn't have any problems with *his* comments. I find the idea that men and women are automatically equal participants on a list like this a bit naive, but it's not offensive. On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 4:04 PM, George Herbert george.herb...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Laura Hale la...@fanhistory.com wrote: [...] Erik's comment made me feel decidedly uncomfortable. On a list dedicated to helping increase the female participation rates on Wikipedia, Erik basically said: WOMENS! THEY IS DISCRIMINATING AGAINST ME! If I went to some women's communities and I posted Erik's comment (and comments of other male posters) with the context of these comments being said on a list dedicated to increasing female participation rates... ... well, you'd potentially have a mob involved. This effort? It would appear extremely sexist. (The large male involvement, the defensiveness of men regaridng their participation contribute to this image.) That these sexist comments are coming from the Deputy Director of WMF? It makes this worst because it is sexism coming from inside the institution. If you and Erik want to belong, that's great. It should be purely in support roles: Women say they are doing this project and need help. WMF officials step in and say we can help this way. If this was the general mode of male participation on the list, of specific support offered in response to specific requests, male involvement would be less problematic. I would like to hear more from other women here on your impressions of and responses to Erik's comments. -- -george william herbert george.herb...@gmail.com ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] How to increase women's participation on Wikipedia
On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 16:47, Laura Hale la...@fanhistory.com wrote: Michael's comment saying women need to act like men, and that the only way for women to participate on Wikipedia is to act like men (which is exactly how his comment of WOMEN SHOULD ACT LIKE PEOPLE reads. Pretend that Michael was white. Then pretend that Michael said that African Americans or Aboriginals could participate correctly if they stopped acting like African Americans or Aboriginals and instead acted like people, RE: WHITE PEOPLE WHO ARE THE DOMINANT GROUP.) I read a thought experiment a few years ago by an academic philosopher who suggested inserting Blacks and Whites in place of women and men in any discussion you think might be sexist. When you do that, the sexism can become more obvious. Sarah ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] The problem is aggression.... was ... Proposal: Forking gendergap:
I don't have a problem with people starting an all women list specifically on this topic through whatever appropriate list serve service seems appropriate. It can make its own rules about participants. The impression I got was the proposal was to make *this* the all women list, which I oppose. With all back and forth one gets confused. On 3/16/2011 7:59 PM, SlimVirgin wrote: On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 17:52,carolmoor...@verizon.net wrote: I second. The problem is aggression and trying to impose one's agenda, and whether you are male, female, M2F transgender or F2M transgender, you can be aggressive and disruptive. (And I've been on a couple all women lists over the years where M2F transgenders were very aggressive, condescending and disruptive.) I don't see any agreement with Ms. Hale's proposal and I think we need to drop it. It's true, though, that there are things I would post about Wikipedia on a women-only list, if I could be 100 percent sure that's what it was. And as if to prove that point, I just typed out an example, then deleted it because I felt uncomfortable. :) So even if Laura's proposal isn't being supported, I hope it gives food for thought. And there's nothing to stop her from setting up such a list herself. Sarah - ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] Resigning as moderator
Steven asked me a while back to help moderate this list. Unfortunately, I just haven't had time to keep up with the volume of discussion here, so I don't feel like I'm doing a very effective job of keeping the discussions on track. Rather than keep up the pretense, I think it would be better if I resign and let someone else take my place. I've asked SlimVirgin if she would be willing to take over this responsibility and she has graciously agreed to do so. I'm still going to be participating in the list, I just won't be moderating. Kaldari ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] FW: Proposal: Forking gendergap: Main list for women and transgender, sublist for male supporters
Clearly the arguments here are a rehashing of two different versions of feminist action - and both have been successful in winning rights and opportunities for women in the Western world. Which you prefer often comes down to a philosophical difference about essentialism - do you believe that women are essentially different than men? As that question is unresolvable on this list, I suggest we turn to practical questions to resolve this issue. 1) Since we cannot know contributors' sex for certain (and thus predict their reactions based on any kind of essentialist philosophy), I am unconvinced that forking the list would be effective in the way that such groups have been for the feminist movement already. 2) Since the number of people in the Wikipedia community who want to work on this problem is small, we should work together until such time as multiple groups are even feasible. Too much fracturing diffuses the impact we can make. 3) Many women react in ways that are just as sexist as men. Some of the most damaging sexism I have seen on Wikipedia came from female editors. We should not exclude male voices based on the assumption that they could be sexist but allow any female voice. My two cents. Adrianne (User:Awadewit) -- Adrianne Wadewitz Teaching Fellow English department Indiana University ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
